Season 4 Episode 3 "Breaker of Chains": HAVE read the books

Peregrine · 20-04-2014 8:21pm #1

Surprised there was no thread yet so I thought I might as well start one.

Last weeks episode ended kind of abruptly in that we didn't see Sansa escaping with Dontos.

The promo seems to suggest that Sam and Gilly are leaving Castle Black with Gilly's child? That makes no sense to me..

Witcher · 20-04-2014 8:34pm

He's bringing her to Mole's Town because it's safer.

Tenger · 21-04-2014 12:05am

Bugger....stuck in the US on a work trip....no HBO in hotel.....I doubt an bar would show it

Peregrine · 21-04-2014 1:09am

Blay wrote: »

He's bringing her to Mole's Town because it's safer.

Ah, now that makes sense.

Tenger wrote: »

Bugger....stuck in the US on a work trip....no HBO in hotel.....I doubt an bar would show it

If you have Sky back home, would Sky Go work abroad?

But even if it did, you'd have to wait until tomorrow.

bur · 21-04-2014 5:56am

That rape scene was pathetic. there's enough rape without inventing more and in the process totally destroying the development we've seen that character go through over three and a bit seasons.

GerB40 · 21-04-2014 10:01am

bur wrote: »

That rape scene was pathetic. there's enough rape without inventing more and in the process totally destroying the development we've seen that character go through over three and a bit seasons.

I haven't seen the episode yet but I have to know, who does Jaime rape? And why?? Book Jaime wouldn't do such a thing so what the fúck are the D&D doing to him?

celica00 · 21-04-2014 10:20am

I can't remember him raping in a book? :O

GerB40 · 21-04-2014 10:35am

celica00 wrote: »

I can't remember him raping in a book? :O

I've done a bit of research and apparently they replaced Cersei & Jaimes "reunion" (where they ride over their dead sons corpse while she's on the blob) with a scene where Jaime rapes her over Joffs corpse. The book scene was fairly fúckin rank and by the sound of it, the tv version is pretty fúcked up too.
I'm just confused as to why they would make Jaime a rapist when he risked his life to save Brienne from a gang rape...

Peregrine · 21-04-2014 11:04am

I can't remember now but I didn't think she was really into it during that scene in the books either.

I've yet to see the episode though, so for all I know they probably did turn it into a proper rape.

GerB40 · 21-04-2014 11:16am

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

I can't remember now but I didn't think she was really into it during that scene in the books either.

I've yet to see the episode though, so for all I know they probably did turn it into a proper rape.

Initially she wasn't up for it. A mixture of anger towards Jaime for "abandoning" her and grief for her dead son made Jaimes attempt to lob it in difficult.

By the end of their messed up riding session she was all over Jaime. Pulling at his hair, groaning and, if my memory serves me, actually saying "I've missed you brother". (or something along those lines).

Kunkka · 21-04-2014 11:39am

Decent episode. The rape scene was actually disturbing.... if they were trying to get the viewers back on Jaime's side that was a strange way of going about it! For once I enjoyed Dany's scene was done very well. Stannis bad ass mode beckons and I can't wait!

The Master · 21-04-2014 1:11pm

Stand out moment for me............Aidan Gillen débuts another new accent for Littlefinger....

podgemonster · 21-04-2014 1:31pm

I thought visually a superb episode.

I really like that wildling attack on the village, touching Father son moment then boom! fast paced brutal bloodshed. Quick and painful with a beautiful green hilled backdrop.

Tommen and Tywin in Sept as a beam of light shines on Joffery, you can feel the coldness in the room, the echo of footsteps.

Sansa's dash through KL as the sunsets on the city followed by the misty boatride through the graveyard of Stannis's fleet to D'arby O'Littlefinger.

Finally the disposal of the Meereen champion in a plume of dust

This really is simply stunning Television

One change I'd make is for a Pod/Tyrion goodbye hug

A Neurotic · 21-04-2014 1:52pm

The Master wrote: »

Stand out moment for me............Aidan Gillen débuts another new accent for Littlefinger....

He's somehow gone full circle and turned it into a bad attempt at an Oirish accent.

Sulla Felix · 21-04-2014 2:00pm

Watching it now. Sansa channelling Scottish Widows running through the streets there. :pac:

Oranage2 · 21-04-2014 2:21pm

A Neurotic wrote: »

He's somehow gone full circle and turned it into a bad attempt at an Oirish accent.

The actor is Irish

Crucifix · 21-04-2014 2:36pm

Oranage2 wrote: »

The actor is Irish

He manages to sound bizarre in spite of it. I saw him in Calvary at the weekend, where he was doing a culchie accent that sounded insane.

Yakuza · 21-04-2014 2:58pm

Maybe the character is regressing to his native accent from The Fingers (he had a humble background), rather than his more cultured one he had to use when moving in King's Landing's upper circles.

A Neurotic · 21-04-2014 3:35pm

Oranage2 wrote: »

The actor is Irish

That's what I mean. He's Irish yet sounds like someone affecting a poor Irish accent.

username123 · 21-04-2014 4:08pm

mmmm...Im not sure I saw that as a rape scene, more as an angry sex scene. She was grabbing at him, then not, then seemed to be going with it....by the end she seemed like she was resigned to it but given the Cersei we know, Im sure she would have clawed his eyes out if she really didnt want it. A strange one though.

Arya and the Hound were a class act again.

Still not fully sold on the new Daario, thought the whole Meereen champion scene was a bit flat. Pissing on the ground - where was Strong Belwas to take a dump!! Id actually preferred if Ser Barristan had stepped in to fight the Meereen champion. I did like the catapulted barrels of slave chains and manacles though.

Peregrine · 21-04-2014 4:19pm

I still prefer this Daario to the old one. His beard is no blue trident but it's still something.

Liam O · 21-04-2014 4:33pm

podgemonster wrote: »

I thought visually a superb episode.

I really like that wildling attack on the village, touching Father son moment then boom! fast paced brutal bloodshed. Quick and painful with a beautiful green hilled backdrop.

Tommen and Tywin in Sept as a beam of light shines on Joffery, you can feel the coldness in the room, the echo of footsteps.

Sansa's dash through KL as the sunsets on the city followed by the misty boatride through the graveyard of Stannis's fleet to D'arby O'Littlefinger.

Finally the disposal of the Meereen champion in a plume of dust

This really is simply stunning Television

One change I'd make is for a Pod/Tyrion goodbye hug

Really? I thought some of the cinematography was really poor at times, especially at the start of the episode it looked like a bad tv movie. Littlefinger's reveal could have been better too. I think it was a bad episode with some good scenes. There's no mention in the books of Oberyn Martell being gay, Ellaria is bi but now we have to endure shoehorned in gay sex scenes that add nothing to the plot and also add a silly weakness to Oberyn that would be exploited by Tywin too?

The episode picked up after it's early failings I felt with 2 excellent exchanges between Oberyn and Tywin and Tyrion and Pod. Didn't think the Hound and Arya were great but not terrible either.

username123 · 21-04-2014 4:44pm

Liam O wrote: »

There's no mention in the books of Oberyn Martell being gay, Ellaria is bi but now we have to endure shoehorned in gay sex scenes that add nothing to the plot and also add a silly weakness to Oberyn that would be exploited by Tywin too?

He isnt gay, he's bi. Tyrion mentions some rumour that Oberyn beds both men and women and Jaime mentions it too at some stage - when Tywin is discussing who to wed Cersei off to.

Theres a thread on it here with the relevant quotes from the books.

December2012 · 21-04-2014 5:26pm

It seemed like Jamie was raping her, I didn't like that change - maybe it makes Cersei a more sympathetic character.

So presumably Stannis is going to make a deal with the Iron Bank of Braavos now instead of later?

Hotale.com · 21-04-2014 6:07pm

Do people not like this episode much? I thought it was brilliant! Arya & the Hound, Sansa & Littlefinger, Tywin & Tommen and that final Dany bit was fantastic! I also wouldn't have considered that Jaime scene to be rape in their world, certainly it would be in modern day terms but as we see so often Westeros is a far more brutal place than ours.

Also: I agree that the book scene with Jaime and Cersei was better than the show, I feel it's really going to undermine the "Jaime's redemption" arc.

Grim. · 21-04-2014 7:00pm

ffs no Strong Belwas!

Washington Irving · 21-04-2014 7:04pm

Grim. wrote: »

ffs no Strong Belwas!

That made me sad.

Thought they did a pretty good job on that scene with the characters (or lack thereof) available though. The catapulted manacles and slave collars was great.

Witcher · 21-04-2014 7:20pm

I can see the non readers becoming really pissed off with Dany and even being turned off the show a bit because there is no payoff with her.

Sugar Free · 21-04-2014 7:41pm

The Master wrote: »

Stand out moment for me............Aidan Gillen débuts another new accent for Littlefinger....

It really was a strange mix of an attempt at a generic Irish accent you'd expect (and maybe accept) from a non-Irish actor mixed with some of his native Dub.

On a more serious note, I really don't get the Jaime angle. I can't see how his character can be portrayed as 'good' after the rape scene. Unless the show will take his arc down a different path?

Daith · 21-04-2014 8:01pm

Liam O wrote: »

There's no mention in the books of Oberyn Martell being gay, Ellaria is bi but now we have to endure shoehorned in gay sex scenes that add nothing to the plot and also add a silly weakness to Oberyn that would be exploited by Tywin too?

I don't see how Oberyn shagging men makes him weak?

Blay wrote: »

I can see the non readers becoming really pissed off with Dany and even being turned off the show a bit because there is no payoff with her.

Yup. The mention from Tywin that she's going to turn her dragons towards Kings Landing is just playing with the non readers now.

Sulla Felix · 21-04-2014 8:25pm

Unless they speed things up quite a bit. Part of the problem is that the scale of the eastern lands isn't really demonstrated. Dany might as well be walking from Dublin to Cork, in the books it was very clear that the journey was a lot more grueling so the context is a bit skewed.

They've shown they're willing to change things. That rape really paints Jamie a lot worse than the books did and makes Cersei a potentially more sympathetic character.

username123 · 21-04-2014 8:35pm

Interesting article from Nikolaj Coster Waldau on the "rape" scene.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/20/game-of-thrones-most-wtf-sex-scene-nikolaj-coster-waldau-on-jaime-lannister-s-darkest-hour.html

Barna77 · 21-04-2014 9:20pm

NOt liking at all what they've done to Jamie with that rape scene.

And yeah, Littlefinger's accent. Next he'll sound like a trader from Moore St. Lemoncakes Sansa love?

ibarelycare · 21-04-2014 9:58pm

The Master wrote: »

Stand out moment for me............Aidan Gillen débuts another new accent for Littlefinger....

Oh my god he's actually excruciating to listen to. Why has no one talked to him about it?!!!!

Was worried that this episode was going to be a big anti-climax after last week, but really enjoyed it. The scenes with Tywin were fantastic as usual. He's going to be such a big loss

Washington Irving · 21-04-2014 10:06pm

Also, I don't like the new Tommen.

He looks like a slightly younger Joffrey. Thought the previous actor matched the description better, he looked more the 'playing with kittens' type than the 'crossbow through a whore' type.

Hotale.com · 21-04-2014 10:11pm

Washington Irving wrote: »

Also, I don't like the new Tommen.

He looks like a slightly older Joffrey. Thought the previous actor matched the description better, he looked more the 'playing with kittens' type than the 'crossbow through a whore' type.

And he's meant to be younger... To be honest I think he's okay. Loving new Daario, the last one looked like Barbie.

pookiesboo · 21-04-2014 10:12pm

Sam wants to protect Gilly from pervs in Castle Black.....so sends her to live in a brothel

Washington Irving · 21-04-2014 10:16pm

Hotale.com wrote: »

And he's meant to be younger... To be honest I think he's okay. Loving new Daario, the last one looked like Barbie.

I meant to say younger, edited now. He looks older than he should imo. Someone said last week that it may have been to make his marriage to Margaery less shocking to a TV audience, which I can understand, but it makes other aspects of his character less believable.

username123 · 21-04-2014 10:16pm

Washington Irving wrote: »

Also, I don't like the new Tommen.

He looks like a slightly younger Joffrey. Thought the previous actor matched the description better, he looked more the 'playing with kittens' type than the 'crossbow through a whore' type.

Yeah he is very like Joffrey isn't he? I remember him being murdered as a Lannister cousin, so a bit disconcerting that he's reappeared as Tommen.

Peregrine · 21-04-2014 10:17pm

New Tommen is a wight.

bur · 21-04-2014 10:38pm

I don't know why they didn't follow the timing of events in the book with Jaime/Brienne. Seems a completely unnecessary thing to do, it's not like they've had them do anything since getting back to KL. Neither of them lifted a finger to help Sansa even. You'd think a scene with Brienne even talking to her about her Mother would have been put in there. Instead we got a really awkward clunky scene of Cersei and Brienne that wasn't needed.

And Aidan Gillen, he's always been bad at accents. His American one in The Wire is cringe inducing.

Hotale.com · 21-04-2014 11:09pm

bur wrote: »

I don't know why they didn't follow the timing of events in the book with Jaime/Brienne. Seems a completely unnecessary thing to do, it's not like they've had them do anything since getting back to KL.

I'd imagine they didn't follow the timing of the book because otherwise season 3 wouldn't have had much closure regarding Jaime's storyline. If I'm not mistaken, it was just after the purple wedding they returned in the book wasn't it?

pookiesboo · 21-04-2014 11:09pm

bur wrote: »

I don't know why they didn't follow the timing of events in the book with Jaime/Brienne. Seems a completely unnecessary thing to do, it's not like they've had them do anything since getting back to KL. Neither of them lifted a finger to help Sansa even. You'd think a scene with Brienne even talking to her about her Mother would have been put in there. Instead we got a really awkward clunky scene of Cersei and Brienne that wasn't needed.

And Aidan Gillen, he's always been bad at accents. His American one in The Wire is cringe inducing.

He should use his 'pretentious voice' that he uses for Other Voices as Littlefinger. I don't think he's a great actor though, very cringey especially when he was in Love/Hate.

bopper · 21-04-2014 11:25pm

Liam O wrote: »

There's no mention in the books of Oberyn Martell being gay, Ellaria is bi but now we have to endure shoehorned in gay sex scenes that add nothing to the plot and also add a silly weakness to Oberyn that would be exploited by Tywin too?

It is mentioned in the books that he sleeps with men, more than once. I don't see how it's a weakness, his character doesn't seem weak at all, quite the opposite actually. There also hasn't been a single gay sex scene in the entire series so far so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Do you find you have to "endure" the huge amount of female nudity and girl on girl action that features in the show? That of course DEFINITELY serves the plot and is NEVER "shoehorned" in just for the sake of it :rolleyes:

FunLover18 · 21-04-2014 11:30pm

Personally I thought that was the weakest episode in a long time. Arya and the Hound are turning into some weird buddy act that doesn't seem right within the setting of the show, and Sam and Gilly have become a cliched couple in a teen drama. I thought the writing was very poor. When Davos said to Stannis "You won't be poor for long" I thought he was going to suggest going to the Iron Bank but it turns out he hadn't even had that notion yet.

I'm also getting worried about the timing, Tyrion's trial is in two weeks which means it will have be next week right? I'm unsure of the timeline of the show, Tyrion made reference to Sansa being tormented by Joffrey for years which implies that each season roughly represents a year ... ?

Littlefinger's accent ... he must be doing it on purpose!!

Also, I had to watch this in Standard Def due to recording conflicts #firstworldproblems

Nerdlingr · 21-04-2014 11:33pm

Was the scene with the Hound robbing from the farmer in the books? I cant remember.

Hotale.com · 21-04-2014 11:36pm

bopper wrote: »

It is mentioned in the books that he sleeps with men, more than once. I don't see how it's a weakness, his character doesn't seem weak at all, quite the opposite actually. There also hasn't been a single gay sex scene in the entire series so far so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Do you find you have to "endure" the huge amount of female nudity and girl on girl action that features in the show? That of course DEFINITELY serves the plot and is NEVER "shoehorned" in just for the sake of it :rolleyes:

I think the weakness he/she is referring to is that, after seeing Oberyn in bed with a man, Tywin could use Oberyn's promiscuity with other men as a way of spreading rumours about him, or garnering hatred for him amongst the common people (albeit that the common people seem to be the least of Tywin's concerns). Is homosexuality even frowned upon in Westeros? I never really remember any serious contempt being conveyed towards homosexuality in the books...

lynski · 21-04-2014 11:36pm

I did not think it was a rape scene at all, more a we shouldn't it's wrong while grabbing and kissing him?
Very much like the book scene, not her idea and she might have chosen a different time but went with the moment?
Anyway loved a lot if it, but not the accent.
Things are moving fast, yeah ? Like Jon stepping up to say what has to be done and danys story.
All good so far

Sugar Free · 21-04-2014 11:38pm

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Was the scene with the Hound robbing from the farmer in the books? I cant remember.

I can't either 100% but maybe it was supposed to replace the part in the book where the Hound and Arya cross an overflowing river on the way to the Red Wedding. I think the Hound promises payment when the boat reaches the other side. The guy accepts this based on the Hound's word as a knight, only for him to ride off without paying. A different way to highlight the Hound's thievery and lack of honour I guess.

Although that could have been in the show, the two are blending into one for me now! Need a reread...

bopper · 21-04-2014 11:39pm

Is anyone else thinking the rape scene is probably a spoiler to what lays ahead in future books? Considering the writers are aware of each characters overall fate. Perhaps he doesn't remain a nice guy for much longer and they're trying to stop the viewers warming to him too much if he's only gonna end up being a dick again.

Personally I hate the way his character started being portrayed as some kind of a hero in the book. He was horrible right up until the point that he rescued Brienne. I don't think he should go unpunished, so if he's destined for some grisly end I'm all for it!

lynski · 21-04-2014 11:39pm

Hotale.com wrote: »

I think the weakness he/she is referring to is that, after seeing Oberyn in bed with a man, Tywin could use Oberyn's promiscuity with other men as a way of spreading rumours about him, or garnering hatred for him amongst the common people (albeit that the common people seem to be the least of Tywin's concerns). Is homosexuality even frowned upon in Westeros? I never really remember any serious contempt being conveyed towards homosexuality in the books...

Jeoffrey threatens to outlaw it, can't remember if that is books or show, definitely frowned on is westeros, probably could get you killed up north, but dorne is different.

Season 4 Episode 3 "Breaker of Chains": *HAVE* read the books

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Season 4 Episode 3 "Breaker of Chains": HAVE read the books