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"Government is prepared for railway closures"

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    #62
    metrostation
    Registered Users Posts: 66 ✭✭metrostation


    Cutting services and closing down railway lines is not the answer, when most European countries are pouring billions into their railway infrastructure we here are talking about shutting down our own network in favour of funding buses! This would be a backward step in my eyes.

    Scince David Franks has taken over Irish rail over a year ago, big improvements have been made. Journey times are now quicker, services have improved and the online purchasing system has brought train ticketing prices into the 21st century.

    Rather than cut funding the government should be looking at investing more into our railway system. Upgrading tracks and improving journey times is the ultimate key to success. If you could do Dublin - Belfast in less than 90 minutes and Dublin - Cork in less than 2 hours for example, it would be a good incentive to get people out of their cars and busses and onto trains again.

    Targeting corporate and business customers would also be a winner. Add a "business class" travel service somewhere between standard and 1st class with free Wifi and power points at every seat along with complementary tea/coffee I guarantee these customers would rather be sitting on a comfortable train seat than stuck on a bus for 2-3 hours.


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    #63
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    corktina wrote: »
    Really? well I've had cars older than the Mk3s were on withdrawal and had a headache longer than some of the Mk4s were in service.

    The MK3 fleet went into service in 1986 (and most a bit later than that) and were withdrawn in 2009.

    23 years - really quite short by international standards anyway.

    The DART fleet's likely to be at least twice as old as that before the original stock's withdrawn.


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    #64
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    metrostation wrote: »

    Targeting corporate and business customers would also be a winner. Add a "business class" travel service somewhere between standard and 1st class with free Wifi and power points at every seat along with complementary tea/coffee I guarantee these customers would rather be sitting on a comfortable train seat than stuck on a bus for 2-3 hours.

    They have that and have had it for years on the Cork line "CityGold" and it has relatively low uptake these days due to the motorway.

    They've free WiFi and power at every seat on all the 22000 fleet.
    Only the MK4 lacks power sockets at every seat (CityGold coaches only) but it has WiFi throughout and has had for quite a while now.

    For business people the problem is that most business isn't conducted in the city centre and you need a car.
    We don't all work in the IFSC and most people you'll find who have to travel around the country will tend to be hitting a lot of businesses in the suburbs of Cork, Dublin, etc in technology parks and industrial estates.

    Civil servants and bankers are the majority of the city-centre workers and they don't do a whole lot of travelling.

    For many Cork-Dublin commutes, you could be actually heading to Tallaght, or Blanchardstown or Mahon or Cork Airport Technology park or Airside or one of many, many similar destinations all of which make more sense by motorway than rail.


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    #65
    Banjoxed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Banjoxed


    corktina wrote: »
    Oh come on JD...did you not see the electric car revolution happening? What do trains run on mostly in this country? Peak Oil is a bogus argument

    This electric car chestnut of yours Corktina is as much bull as when you played it before.

    I think making railway investment as being somehow opposed to road investment is a argument from absurdity. Run correctly, the railways are an asset, but there are other issues in the background relating to land use, spatial strategy, the ability of road planners to draw a line on a map in all sorts of different places and the interests of hauliers and bus owners all seeking the taxpayer subsidised infrastructure that they can run on.

    I've met Varadakar in the past and he is a clever man. But he is playing a political game here with the CIE unions and dog whistling to the Doheny and Nesbitt School of Economics with his lickarsery about Tod Andrews. Who did Andrews benefit, really? Think about it.


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    #66
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    metrostation wrote: »
    Cutting services and closing down railway lines is not the answer, when most European countries are pouring billions into their railway infrastructure we here are talking about shutting down our own network in favour of funding buses! This would be a backward step in my eyes.

    Scince David Franks has taken over Irish rail over a year ago, big improvements have been made. Journey times are now quicker, services have improved and the online purchasing system has brought train ticketing prices into the 21st century.

    Rather than cut funding the government should be looking at investing more into our railway system. Upgrading tracks and improving journey times is the ultimate key to success. If you could do Dublin - Belfast in less than 90 minutes and Dublin - Cork in less than 2 hours for example, it would be a good incentive to get people out of their cars and busses and onto trains again.

    Targeting corporate and business customers would also be a winner. Add a "business class" travel service somewhere between standard and 1st class with free Wifi and power points at every seat along with complementary tea/coffee I guarantee these customers would rather be sitting on a comfortable train seat than stuck on a bus for 2-3 hours.

    Intercity express services and commuter services are the two areas where rail should be scoring. One can only wonder why it isn't


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    #67
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Banjoxed wrote: »
    This electric car chestnut of yours Corktina is as much bull as when you played it before.

    I think making railway investment as being somehow opposed to road investment is a argument from absurdity. Run correctly, the railways are an asset, but there are other issues in the background relating to land use, spatial strategy, the ability of road planners to draw a line on a map in all sorts of different places and the interests of hauliers and bus owners all seeking the taxpayer subsidised infrastructure that they can run on.

    I've met Varadakar in the past and he is a clever man. But he is playing a political game here with the CIE unions and dog whistling to the Doheny and Nesbitt School of Economics with his lickarsery about Tod Andrews. Who did Andrews benefit, really? Think about it.

    How is it bull? It is what will happen when the oil runs out, making the oil argument irrelevant.


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    #68
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Just heard a clip of Varadkars crass interview on RTE's lunchtime news and he launches into the romance of steam ****e the obviously intellectually challenged interviewer breaks into guffaws and make some equally infantile remark. What if Varadkar had made a comment about Ireland in the rare oul times when we all used to sit around "the wireless" - would he be guffawing as much then? Stupid prat. :mad:


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    #69
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    corktina wrote: »
    Intercity express services and commuter services are the two areas where rail should be scoring. One can only wonder why it isn't

    It's doing OK in commuter services but Intercity Express is far from 'express'. The journey times are just too long to make it worthwhile and the prices are outrageous if you don't book ahead.


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    #70
    metrostation
    Registered Users Posts: 66 ✭✭metrostation


    corktina wrote: »
    Intercity express services and commuter services are the two areas where rail should be scoring. One can only wonder why it isn't

    Because the government haven't invested in them properly


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    #71
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    as I said, you can only ask why that is so.


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    #72
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    metrostation wrote: »
    Because the government haven't invested in them properly

    No I think there has been massive rail investment, but it's largely been pissed against the wall.


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    #73
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,989 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    roddney wrote: »
    If you think that, then you should pay a ticket price that reflects full cost of providing the service.
    and are you willing to pay full cost for providing the dart service? if i should ever lose my service which is well used then why should i help subsidise the dart service when if it comes to it i won't have a rail service to access it? i can have that attitude also
    roddney wrote: »
    Like €300-400 for a journey.
    yeah, price the people out so you can shut and rip it up? late april fool yeah?
    roddney wrote: »
    The free travel pass (OAP not disability) should probably be removed for all intercity too as it's a premium service really.
    what if that intercity service is the only form of public transport useful to such people? maybe the bus service isn't or won't be?
    roddney wrote: »
    I'm not saying get rid of the utilised services like Dublin - Belfast, Cork, Limerick, sligo, longford, rosslare, tralee, galway, westport, waterford.
    so the majority of the rail network you want to retain? completely agree.
    roddney wrote: »
    I have to squash onto a way over capacity and disgustingly over crowded 2 or 4 carriage Dart (just outside of IE's very limited definition of peak times) these days to save costs.
    and? closing lines won't change that, again, i'm not willing to lose my service if it comes to it to give you an extra carrige, sorry

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #74
    metrostation
    Registered Users Posts: 66 ✭✭metrostation


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    They have that and have had it for years on the Cork line "CityGold" and it has relatively low uptake these days due to the motorway.

    They've free WiFi and power at every seat on all the 22000 fleet.
    Only the MK4 lacks power sockets at every seat (CityGold coaches only) but it has WiFi throughout and has had for quite a while now.

    For business people the problem is that most business isn't conducted in the city centre and you need a car.
    We don't all work in the IFSC and most people you'll find who have to travel around the country will tend to be hitting a lot of businesses in the suburbs of Cork, Dublin, etc in technology parks and industrial estates.

    Civil servants and bankers are the majority of the city-centre workers and they don't do a whole lot of travelling.

    For many Cork-Dublin commutes, you could be actually heading to Tallaght, or Blanchardstown or Mahon or Cork Airport Technology park or Airside or one of many, many similar destinations all of which make more sense by motorway than rail.

    The service I was proposing should be cheaper than citygold, a little more expensive than standard class without being ripped off. Basically a carriage dedicated to business travellers who don't want to be sitting with groups of hens/stags, young screaming kids etc.

    Your point about suburban travel as opposed to city centre - city centre travel is a valid one, and that is because successive previous governments have never invested in commuter rail or a metro network to connect to our main railway stations. So my point being, MORE INVESTMENT IS NEEDED.


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    #75
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,989 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    corktina wrote: »
    Quite what mass transit do you see happening on the Nenagh Branch or Limerick/Waterford?
    faster journey times and speeds, creating jobs in both citties and realizing the world doesn't start and end in dublin (which will run out of space eventually) would bring mass transet on these pieces of infrastructure

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #76
    jackofalltrades
    Registered Users Posts: 3,240 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    end of the road wrote: »
    and are you willing to pay full cost for providing the dart service? if i should ever lose my service which is well used then why should i help subsidise the dart service when if it comes to it i won't have a rail service to access it? i can have that attitude also
    Is the DART service subsidised? I'd assume that it's at least breaking even.


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    #77
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,989 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    corktina wrote: »
    Intercity express services and commuter services are the two areas where rail should be scoring. One can only wonder why it isn't
    expensive motor ways even to bally go backwards, government not monitoring where the investments in rail and other forms of public transport actually went, even that investment wasn't enough compared to the overspecked overpriced motor ways, the governments policy is to favour cars and the road haulier extremists because ultimately the government gets revenue, i say tell the road and bus lobbiests to get stuffed that they don't run the country and decide policy that the policy is to create in integrated bus and rail network and a rail network that companies can use for freight if they want to use it, remove any tax or any incentives that the road hauliers get and allow actual competition between both modes.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #78
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    jackofalltrades wrote: »
    Is the DART service subsidised? I'd assume that it's at least breaking even.

    That's where you would be utterly wrong, commuter services are notoriously expensive to operate and require large amounts of expensive rolling stock that spends most of the day in sidings.


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    #79
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    end of the road wrote: »
    faster journey times and speeds, creating jobs in both citties and realizing the world doesn't start and end in dublin (which will run out of space eventually) would bring mass transet on these pieces of infrastructure



    People in rural areas don't get it.

    They want railways but they are not prepared to ban one-off housing to create sustainable communities and cities to benefit from rail travel. Neither are they willing to accept that the rural broadband schemes should be abolished to provide higher quality broadband to those communities and cities.

    The updated DeValera vision of a rural Ireland with McMansions dotted all over the countryside with railways, hospitals, schools, broadband and shopping malls on their doorsteps just ain't going to happen. People have to move to one of the big cities/towns to access these services, maybe 8 or 9 places in total - Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Galway, Sligo, Athlone, Kilkenny etc.


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    #80
    sdanseo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,233 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    The problem the Varadkar brings up is perfectly true. Compared to buses, the railway is inefficient. It's not fast enough, the level of service has probably decreased when you look at a combination of the removal of a lot of dining cars and a reduction in frequency. All while operated by IÉ who as a former state agency are indoctrinated into inefficiency, and throw their toys out of the pram at the first sign of any change.

    The railway needs to be given a competitive advantage, and here's where Varadkar falls on his face:
    Leo Varadkar wrote:
    He said there was to be no additional money for Iarnród Éireann from the exchequer, and very little scope for fare increases.
    Leo Varadkar wrote:
    If our current rail services are to survive, they must be competitive with alternative modes and that is clearly a big challenge

    You can't do one without the other. To make the railway more efficient and competitive, you need to offer a better service so that people want to use it instead of the bus. That means faster and more comfortable.

    Most trains are more comfortable than buses but not all, and in my mind the 22000 class are less comfortable than the MkIII were, there's no dining car (not to mention that the sets are split and they're being laid idle in sheds rather than actually being used). As for speed - where to start? Dublin to Galway is 2:45, and a little over 2:00 by Bus. Belfast? 2:10, and less than 2:00 by Bus. Cork / Tralee and the southwest is the only part of the country than can be reached quicker by train than by Bus, and then only barely.

    Either invest in bringing the railways into the 21st century or remove them. Dublin and Cork are exceptions as commuter routes in both cities as well as the major intercity route are profitable and will only get better if and when DU is ever pursued. Pulling up Dublin's tramways was a bad idea. Closing inefficient railways wasn't (although I wouldn't support removing the infrastructure as demand can always change). I love trains and railways, but if all they are is a money pit for the taxpayer then why bother?
    Godge wrote: »
    People in rural areas don't get it.

    They want railways but they are not prepared to ban one-off housing to create sustainable communities and cities to benefit from rail travel. Neither are they willing to accept that the rural broadband schemes should be abolished to provide higher quality broadband to those communities and cities.

    The updated DeValera vision of a rural Ireland with McMansions dotted all over the countryside with railways, hospitals, schools, broadband and shopping malls on their doorsteps just ain't going to happen. People have to move to one of the big cities/towns to access these services, maybe 8 or 9 places in total - Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Galway, Sligo, Athlone, Kilkenny etc.

    Also, this. A hundred times this.


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    #81
    jackofalltrades
    Registered Users Posts: 3,240 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    That's where you would be utterly wrong, commuter services are notoriously expensive to operate and require large amounts of expensive rolling stock that spends most of the day in sidings.
    Have you got a source to the amount of subsidy?


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    #82
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    Dart and commuter is profitable last I heard, its the intercity/rural lines thats lossmaking.

    To be honest Vadatard is a complete muppet everytime he opens his mouth hes out to piss someone off or another or cause trouble.

    Railway closures wont solve anything they only make things worse in the long run. Unions aint gonna back down as at the end of the day the last time they gave cuts the goverment just cut the subsidy defeating the savings from those cuts. Then you got the political BS of the Western Rail Corridor which shouldve NEVER been rebuilt that way in the first place (rather shoul've rebuilt it on a straiter faster aligntment and serving only the villages with a decent pop. catchment) while others like the M3 spur to Navan were never completed fully (it shouldve gone on to Navan and that line wouldve been profitable since it'd be linking a major population centre with the city provided it didnt have unnessasary stops).

    End of the day the rail network is straining today because of political interference and managerial mismanagment. Public transport isnt even about profits its about keeping major population centres connected and keeping cars off the road but instead we have a "minister of $hitstirring" who wants to close lines instead of fixing the problems or investing properly (saying get more busses doesnt work they simply withdraw them after a few years like what happened in England with their rail rationalisation).


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    #83
    sdanseo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,233 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    roddney wrote: »
    The free travel pass (OAP not disability) should probably be removed for all intercity too as it's a premium service really. Note, I'm not saying get rid of the utilised services like Dublin - Belfast, Cork, Limerick.

    My Granny is 88, and uses the train relatively frequently to get down the country, alone no less (she acts like she's about 60). She has a free travel pass, and isn't particularly well off, living on a Widow's pension. She is defiant that she should be paying for her travel, and that people who can afford it should pay something towards the cost of travel, even if it's a subsidised rate.

    It's a bigger welfare issue really. All state benefits should be means tested. The dole is too much and too easy, half of all people on free travel passes don't need them, etc etc


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    #84
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    jackofalltrades wrote: »
    Have you got a source to the amount of subsidy?

    Lots of stats here: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:PLfBBJy5BNoJ:www.esri.ie/pdf/QEC1003SA_Barrett.pdf+&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie&client=opera


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    #85
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    sdeire wrote: »
    My Granny is 88, and uses the train relatively frequently to get down the country, alone no less (she acts like she's about 60). She has a free travel pass, and isn't particularly well off, living on a Widow's pension. She is defiant that she should be paying for her travel, and that people who can afford it should pay something towards the cost of travel, even if it's a subsidised rate.

    It's a bigger welfare issue really. All state benefits should be means tested. The dole is too much and too easy, half of all people on free travel passes don't need them, etc etc

    True enough while I could say the oldies are fine with a free or 80% reduction along with the "true" disabled (ie wheelchair users or blind for example) the rest should be paying no excuses expecially if your in a buisnesss suit and briefcase and are clearly fine to move around.


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    #86
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    sdeire wrote: »
    My Granny is 88, and uses the train relatively frequently to get down the country, alone no less (she acts like she's about 60). She has a free travel pass, and isn't particularly well off, living on a Widow's pension. She is defiant that she should be paying for her travel, and that people who can afford it should pay something towards the cost of travel, even if it's a subsidised rate.

    It's a bigger welfare issue really. All state benefits should be means tested. The dole is too much and too easy, half of all people on free travel passes don't need them, etc etc

    But if more people were made to pay, all that would happen is the subsidies would be reduced. Who wins there?


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    #87
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    jackofalltrades wrote: »
    Hueston is just too far out of the city.

    Oh come off it, Heuston is on the western edge of central Dublin. Trams reach Abbey street in 11mins, buses reach college green in about 15mins. Look at Wien Westbahnoff, the largest station in Austria is a similar distance to the city centre and trains connect to the regional cities (of the same population as Irish regional cities) at circa 300km/hr


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    #88
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    corktina wrote: »
    No I think there has been massive rail investment, but it's largely been pissed against the wall.

    2bn over 10 years mostly on maintenance, compared to 8bn on motorways plus ongoing subsidy of toll companies plus non motorway roads


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    #89
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    corktina wrote: »
    But if more people were made to pay, all that would happen is the subsidies would be reduced. Who wins there?
    The taxpayer?


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    #90
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,989 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Godge wrote: »
    People in rural areas don't get it.
    get what, the limerick waterford line is an intercity line, end of
    Godge wrote: »
    They want railways but they are not prepared to ban one-off housing to create sustainable communities and cities to benefit from rail travel.
    can easily be done
    Godge wrote: »
    Neither are they willing to accept that the rural broadband schemes should be abolished to provide higher quality broadband to those communities and cities.
    good, why should they, their entitled to high quality broadband and they are right to stop themselves being forced to lose out on it just to provide better broadband to others which people in rural areas can't access, totally right on this one, the rural broadband scheme is a good scheme and any attempt to abolish it just to give it to the citties and leave the rest behind must be fought tooth and knail.
    Godge wrote: »
    The updated DeValera vision of a rural Ireland with McMansions dotted all over the countryside with railways, hospitals, schools, broadband and shopping malls on their doorsteps just ain't going to happen.
    who said it was? the current rail system is viable, its miss management and incompitents and lack of vision that is holding it back, nobody suggested building rural hospitals either, but any attempt to close the current hospitals should be fought against.
    Godge wrote: »
    People have to move to one of the big cities/towns to access these services, maybe 8 or 9 places in total - Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Galway, Sligo, Athlone, Kilkenny etc.
    no they don't, the government decided to push ahead with allowing one off housing so now its tough s//t, they now have to deliver services to these people whatever the cost, nobody should have to move anywhere unless they want to, one off housing should never have been allowed but it has so now we have to live with the consiquences of that which is delivering services to as many as possible and higher costs of doing so

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #91
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    end of the road wrote: »
    dublin (which will run out of space eventually)

    lol, metropolitan Tokyo is home to 33,000,000 people with an area slightly smaller than Northern Ireland. Do you really think cities can't grow?


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