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Government agreement: Free-To-Air RTE in NI, BBC in RoI on DTT platform

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    #302
    mrdtv2010
    Registered Users Posts: 556 ✭✭✭mrdtv2010


    Deleted User wrote: »
    RTE have always been interested in providing UK tv services if they can make money on the provision of them.
    They made money on cablelink while it was in service and on the sale of it later.
    Someone would have provided the service eventually RTE just got in there.

    They were behind the original government/quango scuppered dtt proposals by easy tv back in 2001.
    They're probably behind the provision of it anyway by stealth once the existing onevision consortium pull out but only on a quid pro quo.
    RTE will on the quiet be able to tell large trans national advertisers that they have a potential 1.5 million extra viewers in NI and not worry about the BBC as it won't be taking any of RTE's add revenue.
    It's ingenious.

    They know a big majority in the republic already have it[so making it easier for them is not an issue given the benefits to RTE of getting on dtt in NI] and this is the best plan to increase their add revenue by claiming a potential NI audience

    There are two problems with this, three if you ask who's going to pay for it,

    a) UTV will object in the courts if there is no quid pro quo. They are not on the Sky Ireland EPG and people will switch to a UK Freesat postcode to get all the HD channels in Ireland, this is going to happen in Scotland as STV's HD service won't be on the air in time for the World Cup.

    b) The proposals for NI carriage are based on a low power DTT multiplex (10-20kW) whereas post DSO Divis PSB muxes are 100kW. RESULT: poorer coverage than NI stations and indoor reception of RTE in urban areas such as Belfast will be decidely ropey. Not exactly a convincing sell to advertisers.

    I see this being delayed: it took years to get Clermont Carn cleared to transmit at high power into Belfast. The issues revolve around rights, revenues, regulation, competition and who carries the costs.


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    #303
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Prior to RTE Relays, and Cablelink, Dublin was an aviation hazard with all the tall TV masts getting TV from Wales and Divis. The provision of a capital wide cable system got rid of the eyesores. People were getting the UK TV anyway, so RTE along with others provided a service which made money. Commercial enterprise I think would describe it. If only there was more of it around now.

    Most people who want to receive BBC already do, either by satellite or cable (which I think includes MMDS). Giving it FTA on DTT has little impact on any of these modes of distribution, and therefore the rights question is a little academic. RTE would be affected if it was included in the FTA mix, but probably not their advertising revenue. However if UTV was included, then TV3 and RTE would suffer. I doubt if any court challenge would succeed as there are few, if any, grounds for such a challenge. Competition?

    Whether TV3 objected I do not know, but they would be affected, but how can they complain? They did not take up all there frequecies so as to increase their reach to the public they supposedly serve.

    This is all a bottle of smoke. When push comes to shove, the PayTV concept will be dead and RTE will be hard pushed to fill the DTT channels without resorting to shopping channels and slappers. They have 4 muxes each can take 8or 9 channels, that means 36 channels. Rte1, RTE 2, RTE 3, TG4, RTE1+1, RTE 2+1 TG4+1, TV3, TV3+1, RTE NEWS NOW, RTE1+2, RTE 2 +2, etc. etc.

    And all in HD.

    :mad:


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    #304
    mrdtv2010
    Registered Users Posts: 556 ✭✭✭mrdtv2010


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Prior to RTE Relays, and Cablelink, Dublin was an aviation hazard with all the tall TV masts getting TV from Wales and Divis. The provision of a capital wide cable system got rid of the eyesores. People were getting the UK TV anyway, so RTE along with others provided a service which made money. Commercial enterprise I think would describe it. If only there was more of it around now.

    Most people who want to receive BBC already do, either by satellite or cable (which I think includes MMDS). Giving it FTA on DTT has little impact on any of these modes of distribution, and therefore the rights question is a little academic. RTE would be affected if it was included in the FTA mix, but probably not their advertising revenue. However if UTV was included, then TV3 and RTE would suffer. I doubt if any court challenge would succeed as there are few, if any, grounds for such a challenge. Competition?

    Whether TV3 objected I do not know, but they would be affected, but how can they complain? They did not take up all there frequecies so as to increase their reach to the public they supposedly serve.

    This is all a bottle of smoke. When push comes to shove, the PayTV concept will be dead and RTE will be hard pushed to fill the DTT channels without resorting to shopping channels and slappers. They have 4 muxes each can take 8or 9 channels, that means 36 channels. Rte1, RTE 2, RTE 3, TG4, RTE1+1, RTE 2+1 TG4+1, TV3, TV3+1, RTE NEWS NOW, RTE1+2, RTE 2 +2, etc. etc.

    And all in HD.

    :mad:

    I was talking about NI mostly. UTV are canny and will go to court when it suits them. Only one mux DTT is now commercially viable in ROI: as a wag said over on DS today we have yet to see RTE in SD and HD is well down range. The absence of an announced launch date and the usual interminable foot dragging says it all...


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    #305
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    A thought has struck me. If Onevision pull out, could RTE launch the DTT wholly in HD? The spec for STB calls for HD as standard, so if they decided to go HD from the start, upscaling the channels where SD, then that would be interesting. That would mean that two muxes could fill up quite quickly. Also, if we got the Beeb, FTA, it would be HD.

    There's a thought.


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    #306
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Believe it or not RTE then get a crack at the Commercial DTT licence themselves :)


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    #307
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Believe it or not RTE then get a crack at the Commercial DTT licence themselves :)

    Not quite, they are only a part of EasyTV.


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    #308
    byte
    Moderators, Regional North West Moderators Posts: 19,096 Mod ✭✭✭✭byte
    byte


    Would it be for sure that EasyTV will get offered the DTT licence, should OneVision pull the plug?

    Or is there a distinct chance that the whole shebang goes back up for tender?


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    #309
    carrolls
    Registered Users Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭carrolls


    byte wrote: »
    Would it be for sure that EasyTV will get offered the DTT licence, should OneVision pull the plug?

    Or is there a distinct chance that the whole shebang goes back up for tender?
    Byte, I'm not really sure if that is an option at this stage. Selling a sub-Freesat pay-tv package to the remaining 150,000 households who have dodged pay-tv up to this point will be doomed to failure.
    Also, I think that if the plug is pulled on analogue in 2 years time, RTE are doomed as a national broadcaster if the only FREE DTT choice is the RTEs, TV3, TG4 and the NewsLoop. Why pay for an STB that only picks up 4 free channels when you can get a freesat STB that can pick up 100s of free channels including HD? Oh and of course the Irish channels are encrypted on satellite so won't be included in the freesat package.


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    #310
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,479 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    byte wrote: »
    Would it be for sure that EasyTV will get offered the DTT licence, should OneVision pull the plug?

    Or is there a distinct chance that the whole shebang goes back up for tender?

    Naturally we won't know until either OneVision or the BAI withdraw from the current negotiations.

    If the withdrawal does happen I expect Easy TV to be offered the chance to operate the commercial muxes as OneVision were following the withdrawal of Boxer. The monthly BAI board meeting next Monday could end the current negotiations.

    Can RTÉ fund both the roll out of the DTT network and the launch of a commercial DTT service?

    I'm sure UPC (Liberty Global) might look favourably at the option for the following reasons - the declining MMDS subscriber base (78,500), the potential loss of some MMDS spectrum in the upcoming licence review, the greater population coverage of the three (future four or more) commercial multiplexes offering up to 30 channels initially (40 or more after ASO), a subscriber management operation already in place. Competition issues may be a problem with UPC already the main player in the cable and MMDS market.

    There is no Plan B in the public domain.


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    #311
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    The Cush wrote: »
    I'm sure UPC (Liberty Global) might look favourably at the option for the following reasons - the declining MMDS subscriber base (78,500), the potential loss of some MMDS spectrum in the upcoming licence review, the greater population coverage of the three (future four or more) commercial multiplexes offering up to 30 channels initially (40 or more after ASO), a subscriber management operation already in place. Competition issues may be a problem with UPC already the main player in the cable and MMDS market.

    That last figure I saw for MMDS 74,300 down from 76,800 in a quarter and that was 117,000 3 years ago.

    Since the day they bid for the DTT licence in conjunction with RTE they have lost at least 1/4 of their MMDS customers.

    I don't think they can lose any more spectrum until the end. They lost the block between 2600-2690 around 6 or 7 years back and had to ditch analogue MMDS.

    What is more likely over the next two years is that certain MMDS masts are no longer worth running and are simply abandoned or else that they interfere with the LTE service in the UK as plotted by Comreg and rare tweaked a bit thereby losing customers.

    Each mast serves an average of around 4,000 customers down from nearer 6,000 in 2006 .

    mmds.jpg


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    #312
    marclt
    Registered Users Posts: 844 ✭✭✭marclt


    Is penetration into the UK really that widespread?


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    #313
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,479 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    That last figure I saw for MMDS 74,300 down from 76,800 in a quarter and that was 117,000 3 years ago.

    Since the day they bid for the DTT licence in conjunction with RTE they have lost at least 1/4 of their MMDS customers.

    I don't think they can lose any more spectrum until the end. They lost the block between 2600-2690 around 6 or 7 years back and had to ditch analogue MMDS.

    The 78,500 figure comes from Comreg (Q3 2009), when they applied for the licence back in Q2 2008 the MMDS subscriber base was 96,300. According to Comreg there are still approx 2,500 analogue MMDS subscribers.

    The MMDS licences expire in 2012 and 2014 and the review of the licences can begin after 18 April 2010 (per regulation) with a renewal of a further 5 years guaranteed to 2019 subject to conditions.

    The conditions will probably include a loss of some 2.6 GHz spectrum which was proposed by Comreg back in 2003 together with an EU Commission Decision in 2008 on the efficient use of this part of the spectrum. The loss of some spectrum in the band could be alleviated by changing to higher capacity DVB-T2/C2 (with MPEG-4) multiplexes.

    The awarding of the DTT commercial licences to EasyTV may make it easier for Comreg to reassign some of the MMDS spectrum to the Digital Dividend.


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    #314
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,479 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    marclt wrote: »
    Is penetration into the UK really that widespread?

    These Ofcom documents should answer your question
    Updated proposals on the award of the 2.6GHz and 2010MHz bands
    Field Strength measurements in the 2.5 - 2.69 GHz band
    Technical Study - 2010-2025MHz, 2290-2302MHz and 2500-2690MHz Spectrum Awards


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    #315
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    That is where I got that graphic.

    The award of 3G LTE expansion spectrum in the UK and in Ireland will be a key part of any MMDS band consultation because MMDS is blocking that band right now.

    The Cush wrote: »
    These Ofcom documents should answer your question
    Updated proposals on the award of the 2.6GHz and 2010MHz bands
    Field Strength measurements in the 2.5 - 2.69 GHz band
    Technical Study - 2010-2025MHz, 2290-2302MHz and 2500-2690MHz Spectrum Awards


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    #316
    Apogee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,770 ✭✭✭Apogee


    To_be_confirmed wrote: »
    Furthermore, the MoU never made the direct claim that BBC free-to-air was at hand in this country, it was only the press release. One is an international agreement of sorts, the other is simply a press release. It's much more plausible to suspect possible shortcomings in preparing a press release rather than the MoU itself.

    How many hands did that press release pass through before it was released? Particularly, a press release which involved 3 different civil service units (and probably the PSBs as well) and which would have been under significantly greater than normal scrutiny. I don't believe that all of these "tricky" civil servants, who are in a purportedly cosy relationship with the commercial incumbents, would manage to let such a press release into the wild if they were not agreed on the contents. And you can be sure they paid just as much attention to the press release as they did the MoU - that is what counts to their political masters after all.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    They were behind the original government/quango scuppered dtt proposals by easy tv back in 2001.

    "It's TV" ??
    Sam Russell wrote: »
    A thought has struck me. If Onevision pull out, could RTE launch the DTT wholly in HD?

    Technically yes.


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    #317
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Apogee wrote: »

    Originally Posted by Sam Russell viewpost.gif
    A thought has struck me. If Onevision pull out, could RTE launch the DTT wholly in HD?


    Technically yes.

    But would they? If RTE was wholly in HD, RTE 1HD and RTE 2HD, then that would steal a march on TV3. Also if BBC1 was FTA, the RTE1HD could show East Enders and the like in HD and get viewers over BBC. TV3 would be hard hit, as they have not even managed to get widescreen yet.

    RTE have been very quiet about DTT up to now. They have not even commented on the ministers edict about launch nor have they made a comment on the MoU re BBC FTA and their own move north.

    Are they hiding something? And if so, what?


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    #318
    Apogee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,770 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    RTE have been very quiet about DTT up to now. They have not even commented on the ministers edict about launch nor have they made a comment on the MoU re BBC FTA and their own move north.

    Are they hiding something? And if so, what?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vm51sR4tRY


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    #319
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Exactly. They are not even saying nothing.

    :D:D:D:D:D:D


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    #320
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,479 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    The award of 3G LTE expansion spectrum in the UK and in Ireland will be a key part of any MMDS band consultation because MMDS is blocking that band right now.

    According to the Ofcom reports MMDS "showed little or no measured interference from MMDS transmitters into north west England" and "virtually no MMDS coverage in England and Wales with MMDS coverage in Northern Ireland limited away from the border areas".

    Also, "the information presented here suggests that the existence of MMDS services is unlikely to have a material impact of the value of 2.6GHz spectrum. There are likely to be some constraints in some parts of Northern Ireland which suggests that future use of the 2.6GHz band in Northern Ireland may need to be more closely coordinated with ComReg and UPC".

    And of course there is an MoU - Annex 4 of this document Auction of spectrum: 2500–2690MHz, Information Memorandum


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    #321
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,479 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    They have not even commented on the ministers edict about launch nor have they made a comment on the MoU re BBC FTA and their own move north.

    Are they hiding something? And if so, what?

    There is no ministerial edict about DTT launch, I assume you are referring to the Statutory Instrument directing RTÉ to have an operational multiplex available to 90% of the population by the end of Oct. The DTT launch date is a matter for RTÉ and the BAI.
    There is no definitive launch date for a DTT service in Ireland as yet. This is a matter for RTÉ (www.rte.ie) and the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland (www.bci.ie) to determine.

    http://www.rtenl.ie/dtt.htm


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    #322
    carrolls
    Registered Users Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭carrolls


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    RTE1HD could show East Enders and the like in HD and get viewers over BBC?
    Thats a bad example, because Eastenders is not produced in HD.


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    #323
    lucernarian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    The Cush wrote: »
    There is no ministerial edict about DTT launch, I assume you are referring to the Statutory Instrument directing RTÉ to have an operational multiplex available to 90% of the population by the end of Oct. The DTT launch date is a matter for RTÉ and the BAI.
    I would have thought that a statutory instrument instructing to have a PSB multiplex available by the end of October would count as a launch of the "saorview" service?? It's hardly "available" if there's engineering tests ongoing on this network, so this would really mean the Statutory Instrument is instructing a launch of RTÉ's DTT proper and not engineering tests which happen to cover 90% of the country.


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    #324
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    carrolls wrote: »
    Thats a bad example, because Eastenders is not produced in HD.

    Well maybe, but you get the idea. If RTE was on HD on DTT and not on HD anywhere else, then that would give the incentive for Sean Citizen to get DTT. Most TVs from now on will be able to receive it, just needs an aerial. It would save them migrating later. ITV1 HD will just be the usual programmes upconverted where HD is not available, so RTE could do the same.

    It clearly states in the minimum requirements for STBs and iDTVs that they must be capable of HD reception.


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    #325
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    To_be_confirmed wrote: »
    I would have thought that a statutory instrument instructing to have a PSB multiplex available by the end of October would count as a launch of the "saorview" service?? It's hardly "available" if there's engineering tests ongoing on this network, so this would really mean the Statutory Instrument is instructing a launch of RTÉ's DTT proper and not engineering tests which happen to cover 90% of the country.

    So would I. Why is there no respons to the SI.


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    #326
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,479 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    To_be_confirmed wrote: »
    I would have thought that a statutory instrument instructing to have a PSB multiplex available by the end of October would count as a launch of the "saorview" service?? It's hardly "available" if there's engineering tests ongoing on this network, so this would really mean the Statutory Instrument is instructing a launch of RTÉ's DTT proper and not engineering tests which happen to cover 90% of the country.

    The official launch can happen on or before that date if agreed by RTÉ and the BAI but by the 31st Oct the S.I. requires the multiplex to be operational and available to approx 90% of the population.

    With TV3 no longer available and replaced by an RTÉNL testcard can we assume the engineering test are at an end on the main transmitters?

    Also before the launch can happen TV3 have to decide on which multiplex it will be carried and sign the relevant contracts.

    Matters should be clearer after next Monday's BAI monthly board meeting.


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    #327
    lucernarian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    The Cush wrote: »
    The official launch can happen on or before that date if agreed by RTÉ and the BAI but by the 31st Oct the S.I. requires the multiplex to be operational and available to approx 90% of the population.

    With TV3 no longer available and replaced by an RTÉNL testcard can we assume the engineering test are at an end on the main transmitters?

    Also before the launch can happen TV3 have to decide on which multiplex it will be carried and sign the relevant contracts.

    Matters should be clearer after next Monday's BAI monthly board meeting.
    Yes that's fine, I felt you were implicitly saying that the launch of DTT may not take place until after October regardless of the statutory instrument, back there. Would there be any incentive for TV3 to be carried on a different mux to RTÉ, except for a significant difference in cost? As each multiplex appears to cost the same to provision, I can't see there being a massive difference in charges as far as RTÉNL is concerned.


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    #328
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,479 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    To_be_confirmed wrote: »
    Would there be any incentive for TV3 to be carried on a different mux to RTÉ, except for a significant difference in cost? As each multiplex appears to cost the same to provision, I can't see there being a massive difference in charges as far as RTÉNL is concerned.

    If OneVision accept the licence TV3 may be carried on the commercial muxes as they are part of that consortium. The downside there for the viewer is that the commercial muxes may not be available from all the smaller relays due to cost.

    RTÉNL's proposed DTT tariff indicates all multiplexes would be available from c.44 sites with 93% population coverage with the public service mux(es) available from c. 188 sites. The proposed tariff for the commercial muxes is between €1m and €2.4m below the PSB mux tariff depending on the number of sites rolled out.


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    #329
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Given there high commitment to the public, demonstrated their lack of taking up the frequencies allocated on the relays, I think that TV3 will of course take the lowest cost option. They already demonstate this by their low production values in their own productions and their slowness in bringing in the wide band standard employed by the other stations.

    I would be delighted if TV3 were encrypted on the new mux so we will not be able to receive it.:)


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    #330
    TheDriver
    Registered Users Posts: 12,393 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    i presume TV3 will be FTA no matter what mux it appears on but also they have stated their want for 3e to be PSB also hence methinks they will have both on a different mux and free. Upside is RTE have lots more space to play with......


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    #331
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,479 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    TheDriver wrote: »
    i presume TV3 will be FTA no matter what mux it appears on .....

    Yes, TV3 must be FTA - section 70 of the Broadcasting Act 2009, 3e can be "free-to-air or not" - section 34 Broadcasting Act 2001.


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