Luas Fines

BrianD · 15-07-2004 8:39am

I'd be much more into holding them to account for operating a crappy system from the outset, breaking their obligations to us

Who says they are operating a crappy system and breaking obligations? Perhaps you might want to support this claim!

Raggamuffin - you obviously can't face up to the reality that you are wrong and were caught fairly and squarely. You were travelling with an invalid ticket and were treated the same as anybody else who travels without one for whatever reason. I suggest you pay the fine and appeal it if you feel that strongly about it. However, I'd read what is printed on the ticket before you take that course of action.

GreeBo · 15-07-2004 10:37am

Originally posted by Raggamuffin
I would never ever try to obtain passage on an invalid ticket iwas unaware that it was invalid.

Obviously you can read, so why not read the ticket?
You keep harping back to the 2-easy tickets, what do they have to do with anything?? Bus != Tram, even for large values of Bus.

Originally posted by Raggamuffin
I'm not trying to make it not wrong all i'm saying is that 45euro is something i can't pay right now and a simple replacement ticket would have been way better.

Yeah, easier for you. So why should anyone pay the fare when the worst that can happen if they get caught is they pay the normal fare anyway?

cyberspider · 15-07-2004 11:14am

Raggamuffin If you have already paid the fine write a letter to Connex, there is probably an address to query Fines. Politely explain all the datails you have set out here. You were not intentionally travelling on an invalid tickets ie. you were not intending to commit fraud. If you explain it to them there is a chance that they will refund the fine or Quash the fine if not paid. I know a few people that have done this in UK and also With Dublin Bus and they received refunds.

L5 In the UK the RPO's (Ticket inspectors) are legally intitled to ask you for your address details and if they want they can ask for ID to prove this. The reason for this is to prove you are not trying to commit fraud. If you give false details and they can prove you did they it makes their fraud case stronger and you can face higher penalties. They do not however ask for ID unless they suspect something fishey. I suspect that they have Ticket inspectors from the UK training the staff for ireland for the first few months. Hence the large number of ticket inspectors at the moment. I also suspect that there will be one senior experienced ticket inspector with each group that board the train so if people have a similar situation to Raggamuffin you might ask to talk to the senior guy as he will have less to prove

Raggamuffin · 15-07-2004 2:46pm

Again Briand i must call attention to your use of the word "caught".

Being caught implies you willingly were commiting a crime and the proper authorities intervened.

However if you have no information to the contrary where does the judgement lie? With the inpector and with proper understanding.

There are thousands of circumstances like this in every trade were unfortunately the rules don't ALWAYS apply and SHOULD NOT always apply.

Lazy logic such as fining everybody regardless so as to assure everybody does'nt try to get away with it again is much like punishing everybody regardless of their defense even if they were in fact unaware of what they were doing. It is most definatly overkill and i believe that innthe interests of the financial situation of the company recouping costs from heavy fines makes economic sense.

Following rules to their exact definition is almost as dangerous as turning a blind eye to them.

GreeBo · 15-07-2004 2:50pm

but you are still avoiding the point!

The ticket clearly states when it is valid.
The station tells you that it is up to you to ensure your ticket is valid.

Where is the problem?
Whether you were trying to deceive or not is not up to anyone else to decide or to care about.
Its a transport system, who cares about intent!

Pay the fine and learn your lesson.

BrianD · 15-07-2004 3:07pm

Raggamuffin, do us all a favour - the next posting we want to see here is a scan of the receipt for payment of your €45 fine. You may of course add additional text such as "I was wrong and I have learned my lesson" or something to that effect. However, sitting in ashes wearing sackcloth won't be necessary.

maxheadroom · 15-07-2004 3:11pm

Originally posted by Raggamuffin
Again Briand i must call attention to your use of the word "caught".

Being caught implies you willingly were commiting a crime and the proper authorities intervened.

However if you have no information to the contrary where does the judgement lie? With the inpector and with proper understanding.

Ok. One more time.

You had plenty of information to the contrary. Its printed on the ticket. You just didn't read it.

And, "being caught" does not imply intent. It merely indicates that you were in the process of doing something wrong, and were caught doing so. Whether you knew it was wrong or not is irrelevant.

RicardoSmith · 15-07-2004 4:26pm

Originally posted by Raggamuffin
....Lazy logic such as fining everybody regardless so as to assure everybody does'nt try to get away with it again is much like punishing everybody regardless of their defense even if they were in fact unaware of what they were doing. ....

I agree that the inspector was a dick to fine you for this, as you'd paid a fare just not the right one. But being too lazy or stupid to buy the right ticket isn't a reasonable defence.

drrnwbb · 21-07-2004 11:29am

raggamuffin: what did the your original 3€ ticket say? im still at a loss to understand why it wasnt valid the next day if it was a return ticket?. (im not a luas user)

was the 3€ ticket time linked? if so what was the point of it being a return ticket?

dw

eth0_ · 21-07-2004 11:40am

Originally posted by drrnwbb
raggamuffin: what did the your original 3€ ticket say? im still at a loss to understand why it wasnt valid the next day if it was a return ticket?. (im not a luas user)

was the 3€ ticket time linked? if so what was the point of it being a return ticket?

dw

Well, you've heard of a "day return", right? Presumably that's what he bought (i've never used the LUAS, I don't know what sort of tickets there are)

drrnwbb · 21-07-2004 12:25pm

so a "day return" ticket bought now would only be good for wednesday? and not until this time on thursday. strange logic.

dw

GreeBo · 21-07-2004 12:32pm

ARGH!!!
read the ticket people, just read it,
it tells you when its valid for.

What do we need, luas-handholders to bring stupid people around Dublin?

If you buy a bus ticket from terminus to terminus do you think you should be able to go half way, get off and then get back on another bus?
No.
Hmm strange logic, coz I paid for a ticket all the way...

Ugh.
:dunno:

Sleipnir · 21-07-2004 12:32pm

It states quite clearly on the website;

"Single, return and 1-day tickets are only valid on the day that they are issued"

and probably on the ticket itself (but I don't have one handy)
The ticket in question was purchased the day before raggamuffin used it.
1-day return is just that, one day. Tuesday and Wednesday are two different days.

Makes perfect sense to me!

GreeBo · 21-07-2004 12:40pm

From back of ticket...

"Return Ticket: Complete first leg of journey within 90 minutes of ticket issue and the return leg on day of ticket issue"

drrnwbb · 21-07-2004 12:44pm

cheers for clearing that up. its just a different system to what im used to here in helsinki.

dw

sliabh · 21-07-2004 1:41pm

Originally posted by redoxan
From back of ticket...

"Return Ticket: Complete first leg of journey within 90 minutes of ticket issue and the return leg on day of ticket issue"

And this is the same setup as applies with the Dart. I got caught with this a few months ago. I bought a return ticket from Connolly to Blackrock in the evening. Spent the night there and then I couldn't use my return leg in the morning. I had to buy another ticket.

And for those that feel that's not fair, well maybe so, but them's the rules. And you follow the rules or you have anarchy.

If you don't like the rules then get them changed instead of ignoring them.

Earlier someone said that Ireland is basically a dishonest country. I disagree. It's basically honest, but there are a load of people flaunting the rules (speeding, tax, public transport fare dodging, etc.) and it pisses the rule abiding majority off. Hence the success of things like the Insurance Fraud Hotline. Most people are happy to follow the rules when they think everyone else is.

DadaKopf · 21-07-2004 1:50pm

Originally posted by drrnwbb
cheers for clearing that up. its just a different system to what im used to here in helsinki.

dw

Ooh, well lah-di-dah.

Ah no, in fairness, the ticket clearly states that the ticket is valit up until the last tram's final destination. Whether it ought to be like that is an other question.

I think it ought to be like the Helsinki system.

mackerski · 21-07-2004 2:38pm

If you buy a bus ticket from terminus to terminus do you think you should be able to go half way, get off and then get back on another bus?

You're actually free to do just that on the Luas, as long as you're off the thing again withing 90 minutes of the start.

Dermot

Genghis · 21-07-2004 2:49pm

Given that there is no on-board validation, and given that the concept of a return ticket removes the obligation to even buy a ticket, then there has to be a time limit for the ticket to expire. Otherwise you could buy a return ticket, take the first journey and then continually use the return portion of the ticket for every journey you make in that direction until you were inspected.

I do think a 24-hour expiry would make a lot more sense than an 'end of day' expiry.

I also think that the inspector was a little harsh in your case.

GreeBo · 21-07-2004 2:51pm

Originally posted by mackerski
You're actually free to do just that on the Luas, as long as you're off the thing again withing 90 minutes of the start.

Exactly, so why arent people up in arms as we cant do it on the bus?
Because, its a different service.

Oral Slang · 21-07-2004 2:53pm

What everyone should be doing is try to get the whole ticketing system changed. In most countries (I've been on 3 or 4 different tram transport systems) they have a ticket which is valid for 1 day, however this means its valid for 24 hours from the time you validate it & not just for the date in question.
In London & Sydney (possibly other places) the day tickets you buy are valid on the night buses too, so no exorbitant fares to pay after a night out on top of paying for a day ticket.
I hope that come next year there will be an integrated ticket system that covers all of the modes of transport in Dublin, but that wont cost loads more the basic bus or train tickets.

mackerski · 21-07-2004 3:30pm

In most countries (I've been on 3 or 4 different tram transport systems) they have a ticket which is valid for 1 day, however this means its valid for 24 hours from the time you validate it & not just for the date in question.

You mention London later on in your post - but a London Travelcard is not valid for 24 hours, but neither does it stop at midnight. Basically, it's valid from 09:30 (end of morning rush) to something like 04:00 the next day. In other words, until after the last tubes are gone.

I'm not actually aware of any city transport system where a day ticket isn't constrained to a calendar day - without a "valid on" date, how is an inspector supposed to do a quick visual scan of the ticket? Allowing the day ticket to roll over to after-midnight-but-before-waking-up-time services doesn't make it a 24-hour ticket.

Regarding hop-on-hop-off buses, how many of us would be willing to gamble on another bus being along soon enough for us to continue our journeys? I would like to see Dublin's ticketing system go the way of Munich's: a "journey" is defined as the movement from point A to point B any time inside a 3-hour window from the time of ticket validation getting on and off as many transport media as you like as long as you are not deemed to be doubling back.

Dermot

BrianD · 21-07-2004 4:38pm

In London & Sydney (possibly other places) the day tickets you buy are valid on the night buses too, so no exorbitant fares to pay after a night out on top of paying for a day ticket.

Sydney does have integrated ticketing but it only applies to daily, weekly and monthly tickets and you must specify it. If you hop on a bus, train or ferry you will be issued with a ticket (single or return for that mode of transport). I believe the same is for London.

To settle the Luas arguement, I have a Luas ticket in my hand. On the front it specifies the following:

SINGLE
From: Ranelagh
To: Central 1

Valid until: 12:17
on: 17 Jul 04
for: Adult
on: Luas only

Price: €1.60
Ticket no .............................

Terms and conditions are on the back.

John R · 21-07-2004 4:47pm

Originally posted by mackerski
I would like to see Dublin's ticketing system go the way of Munich's: a "journey" is defined as the movement from point A to point B any time inside a 3-hour window from the time of ticket validation getting on and off as many transport media as you like as long as you are not deemed to be doubling back.

Dermot

From Dublin Bus website:

Travel 90 Handy Pack - €15.00

Unlimited travel within 90 mins of first journey on all Dublin Bus services except Airlink, Nitelink and Tours. This Handy Pack contains 10 individual travel 90 tickets. The tickets are valid for six months from the day of purchase.

You do not need any I.D. to use this ticket.

Ticket must be inserted into the bus validator on boarding, the final journey must commence within 90 minutes of first validation.

mackerski · 21-07-2004 5:10pm

Unlimited travel within 90 mins of first journey on all Dublin Bus services except Airlink, Nitelink and Tours.

Gear! Now all we need is to double the 90 minutes, triple the number of transport media the ticket will get you on and reform the bus routes so they aren't strickly radial and we'll be sorted.

Don't get me wrong - the ability to change buses is a very important first step. It just amuses me that we can spend zillions on two tram lines but won't even try to make clever use of the buses we already have.

Dermot

P&L · 21-07-2004 7:33pm

Originally posted by Oral Slang
I hope that come next year there will be an integrated ticket system that covers all of the modes of transport in Dublin[/B]

http://www.rpa.ie/?id=29
not much up on their site yet though...

and why limit it to just Dublin?

mackerski · 21-07-2004 7:58pm

why limit it to just Dublin?

Only because it would make a good start - and because it has more transport media to integrate in the one place. Oh, and I also live there.

But if they can do it nationally, good on 'em.

Dermot

Victor · 21-07-2004 11:33pm

Originally posted by P&L
http://www.rpa.ie/?id=29 not much up on their site yet though...

The new site is lousy - the intergrated ticket system navigation is along the top, so theres lots of pages there, they just make it difficult to find.

Originally posted by P&L
and why limit it to just Dublin?

I don't think it is limited to Dublin.

P&L · 22-07-2004 9:03am

It is badly designed alright (better than the TVM though!)

I was just trying to make the point that there is life outside Dublin ;-) And with the number of daily train and buses services to and from Dublin. I would consider it a failure if those services were not included.

(I like the sig Victor

)

Gillo · 23-07-2004 11:33am

Returns tickets are usually for one day, unless you are travelling a "long distance".

You could try complaining, but or calling Joe Duffy, but at the end of teh day you are the one buying the ticket. I can see how you'd be pissed off though, but if everyone with the incorrect ticket claimed it was a mistake, there woudl be no incentive to actually buy the correct (and maybe) more expensive ticket.

BrianD · 23-07-2004 12:07pm

... especially when all the relevant info is printed on the front of the ticket! All you need to do is read it!

enterprise · 28-07-2004 2:02pm

LUAS tickets clearly have printed on the front of them the following information:

In the case of return tickets:

VAILD UNTIL: 28 JUL 04
ON: LAST TRAM
FOR: ADULT
ON: LUAS ONLY
TIME OF ISSUE: 08.32
PRICE: E3.00 (example).
TICKET NUMBER:

Therefore it is very easy to see that the ticket is vaild for travel ONLY on the day purchased.

ENTERPRISE
NCC1701

A2000 · 28-07-2004 6:48pm

Its written on your ticket: Valid until last tram and the date on which the ticket was purchased. It is also on screen while the ticket is printing on machine that it is valid only till the last tram that day.

A2000 · 28-07-2004 6:54pm

How would the inspector know that ragamuffin had not used his ticket the previous day for a return trip and was not just chancing his arm?

A2000 · 28-07-2004 6:56pm

There may have been 3 of them but dont forget that if a tram is checked between sandyfrod and ballally then 50 more people may get on in dundrum who also need to be checked. Its not much of a hardship to hold up your ticket a 2nd time if asked.

A2000 · 28-07-2004 6:58pm

If not payed within 30 days ragamuffin then a court summons will be issued and a fine of up to E1000 will be imposed by a nice judge in a wig who will want it dealt with asap as he may have more important cases to deal with. Unless of course connex agrees to overturn the fine but inspectors have a job to do.

John R · 28-07-2004 7:36pm

Originally posted by A2000
How would the inspector know that ragamuffin had not used his ticket the previous day for a return trip and was not just chancing his arm?

He wouldn't.

BTW you can edit your posts if you feel the need to add or take away from them.

A2000 · 31-07-2004 1:42pm

Thanks for that. 1st time on and still finding my way round.

Luas Fines

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