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DART+ (DART Expansion)

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    #4052
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,774 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    You could have a separate TOC with separate drivers, conditions and all the rest of it.

    The issue I would be concerned about would be the coordination of trains between different operators across infrastructure with different owners. Who would actually manage this hybrid network? I do not doubt that it can be done, technically speaking, but the politics would be rather difficult.


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    #4053
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,411 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    You could have a separate TOC with separate drivers, conditions and all the rest of it.

    The issue I would be concerned about would be the coordination of trains between different operators across infrastructure with different owners. Who would actually manage this hybrid network? I do not doubt that it can be done, technically speaking, but the politics would be rather difficult.

    I would have thought automating the trains would have a better outcome. No driver, just a conductor/ticket checker who closes the doors, checks tickets, sorts out anti-social types, etc. If there can be autonomous cars, automated trains would be a doddle.


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    #4054
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    I can't see Irish Rail ever having automated trains in the next 40-50 years. A Dublin Metro certainly could, however.

    Side note: automation is the reason why it's criminal how underestimated the importance of a computer science education is to our youth. Every primary school kid should be learning coding, no exceptions. We're going to a reach a point where legacy careers like taxi driver, bus driver, train driver, etc. no longer exist, and we're not preparing for that either on a familial level (my wife is involved with STEM and finds it really hard to get parents of kids from "working class" areas to care at all, especially for girls) or on a governmental one.


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    #4055
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    rocketspocket wrote: »
    Look at crossrail - they just got their heads down and got on with it & that project is exponentially more complex than Dart underground - seems what we do best is just talk and talk about a project without actually doing anything.

    Crossrail was cancelled in 1995 over cost concerns.


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    #4056
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    DARTu can easily be given to TII to operate. By the time it opens, the operation of DART services can be tendered out.


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    #4057
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,353 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    I would prefer if TII were given the remit of design and implementation of DART Expansion, and Irish Rail given the operational contract for now.

    If DART Underground tunnel is ready for 2028 for example, who knows how alive CIE will be by then.


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    #4058
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,560 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    cgcsb wrote: »
    DARTu can easily be given to TII to operate. By the time it opens, the operation of DART services can be tendered out.

    All great in theory, but they already tried that with Dublin Bus drivers and look what happened.

    What would happen all of the existing DART drivers and their pay & conditions for a start?

    The politics of this are phenomenal.


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    #4059
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,560 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    marno21 wrote: »
    I would prefer if TII were given the remit of design and implementation of DART Expansion, and Irish Rail given the operational contract for now.

    If DART Underground tunnel is ready for 2028 for example, who knows how alive CIE will be by then.

    Do we reinvent the wheel again?

    Irish Rail have already designed the entire scheme multiple times over - I imagine Peter Muldoon could do it in his sleep by now.


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    #4060
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,513 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    LXFlyer wrote: »
    Do we reinvent the wheel again?

    Irish Rail have already designed the entire scheme multiple times over - I imagine Peter Muldoon could do it in his sleep by now.

    Nah, we just don't build it!

    Seriously that is all that will happen if it remains a CIE project. The government just has lost all faith with CIE, which is why (note a FF government) took Luas off CIE.


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    #4061
    Norrie Thomas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 68 ✭✭Norrie Thomas


    bk wrote: »
    Nah, we just don't build it!

    Seriously that is all that will happen if it remains a CIE project. The government just has lost all faith with CIE, which is why (note a FF government) took Luas off CIE.

    DART Underground and the Airport heavy rail link must be built. If the governents transport policy is as it appears to be, built around how to shaft CIE then we are all really being run by a bunch of semi house-trained bus obsessed hamsters.

    To resolve this TII should take the entire heavy rail infrastructure. New operators needed to run DART/Dublin Commuter Rail, rail freight, Intercity and regional rail. There are some very efficient operators out there such as MTR, Abelio and Translink.


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    #4062
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Norrie Thomas wrote: »
    DART Underground and the Airport heavy rail link must be built. If the governents transport policy is as it appears to be, built around how to shaft CIE then we are all really being run by a bunch of semi house-trained bus obsessed hamsters.

    To resolve this TII should take the entire heavy rail infrastructure. New operators needed to run DART/Dublin Commuter Rail, rail freight, Intercity and regional rail. There are some very efficient operators out there such as MTR, Abelio and Translink.

    Translink? The Northern Irish Translink? No no no no no no no


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    #4063
    Norrie Thomas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 68 ✭✭Norrie Thomas


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Translink? The Northern Irish Translink? No no no no no no no

    Better than what's there now


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    #4064
    Grandeeod
    Registered Users Posts: 12,101 ✭✭✭✭Grandeeod


    bk wrote: »
    Nah, we just don't build it!

    Seriously that is all that will happen if it remains a CIE project. The government just has lost all faith with CIE, which is why (note a FF government) took Luas off CIE.

    While at the same time, FF were pumping lots of money and promises to the CIE unions. If you want to talk about Governmental and political decisions in relation to CIE, don't start with such a basic opinion. Im no FG supporter, but FF failed on many levels to deconstruct CIE. They brought us to where we are now.


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    #4065
    Banjoxed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Banjoxed


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Crossrail was cancelled in 1995 over cost concerns.

    Huh?

    https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/improvements-and-projects/elizabeth-line


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    #4066
    donvito99
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    Norrie Thomas wrote: »
    If the governents transport policy is as it appears to be, built around how to shaft CIE then we are all really being run by a bunch of semi house-trained bus obsessed hamsters.

    So obsessed are the Government with buses, they plan to build a Metro.


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    #4067
    Banjoxed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Banjoxed


    donvito99 wrote: »
    So obsessed are the Government with buses, they plan to build a Metro.

    2026? Yup that's some plan alright.


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    #4068
    Norrie Thomas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 68 ✭✭Norrie Thomas


    Banjoxed wrote: »
    2026? Yup that's some plan alright.

    Long enough away for the next government to postpone it. I'll believe it's happening when they actually start to build it.


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    #4069
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Banjoxed wrote: »
    Huh?

    https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/improvements-and-projects/elizabeth-line

    I think he's pointing out that Crossrail isn't something anyone should point to as "they got their heads down and got on with it" as it has been realistically in the pipeline since 1989 (and arguably first mooted back in the 40s!)


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    #4070
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Norrie Thomas wrote: »
    Better than what's there now

    They could arguably called "better" on a sliding scale, relatively speaking, but they aren't in any way, shape, or form a good operator. It would be replacing like-for-like, in comparison with some of the more competent operators out there.


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    #4071
    donvito99
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    Banjoxed wrote: »
    donvito99 wrote: »
    So obsessed are the Government with buses, they plan to build a Metro.

    2026? Yup that's some plan alright.
    And Dart Underground + Airport Spur will be completed before that time?


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    #4072
    Norrie Thomas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 68 ✭✭Norrie Thomas


    donvito99 wrote: »
    And Dart Underground + Airport Spur will be completed before that time?

    Probably not!


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    #4073
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    I think we're all expecting that Dublin Metro will be accelerated ahead of that previous 2026 schedule around the coming budget.


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    #4074
    Banjoxed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Banjoxed


    MJohnston wrote: »
    I think we're all expecting that Dublin Metro will be accelerated ahead of that previous 2026 schedule around the coming budget.

    I'm not. The Powers That Be in the Department of Finance will run interference on any suggestion of that.


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    #4075
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    The Department of Finance is headed by someone who stands to gain a lot from the acceleration of the Metro schedule. And there has already been lots of suggestion that this will happen, I'm not pulling it out of my arse.


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    #4076
    Banjoxed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Banjoxed


    MJohnston wrote: »
    The Department of Finance is headed by someone who stands to gain a lot from the acceleration of the Metro schedule. And there has already been lots of suggestion that this will happen, I'm not pulling it out of my arse.

    I don't doubt you. But lets not forget the permanent government who have slowed up every rail project since DART in the seventies.


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    #4077
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    We've talked about this lots on the Metro North thread, but there are more compelling reasons to believe it will be pushed up beyond the direct benefits of the infrastructure existing - in particular it's a vital way to help with the housing crisis.


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    #4078
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,513 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Grandeeod wrote: »
    While at the same time, FF were pumping lots of money and promises to the CIE unions. If you want to talk about Governmental and political decisions in relation to CIE, don't start with such a basic opinion. Im no FG supporter, but FF failed on many levels to deconstruct CIE. They brought us to where we are now.

    I would say both are linked. FF were great at throwing a few bob at unions to keep them quiet, all while working to undermine them at a more fundamental level behind the scenes. I think both FF and FG simply see CIE as far too powerful and too much outside their control for their liking. Ongonig strikes are simply a pain in the arse for them.
    MJohnston wrote: »
    The Department of Finance is headed by someone who stands to gain a lot from the acceleration of the Metro schedule.

    Plus, in the end, Finance will do whatever the Taoiseach directs them to do. And Leo has been banging on about Metro North since before he was elected. It really seems to be priority number one for him.

    With both the Taoiseach and Minister for Finance likely to benefit from it, it is hard to see it not getting fast tracked.


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    #4079
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Paschal's newsletters are constantly talking about transport, even though he left that ministry ages ago. I think he knows it's a vote winner nearly literally in his backyard, and I'm sure he has taken all the positive benefits for Dublin into account too at some stage.


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    #4080
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,843 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    donvito99 wrote: »
    So obsessed are the Government with buses, they plan to build a Metro.

    The y plan on blowing hundred of millions on pathetic brt lines. At the same time e80,000,000 to cut platform lengths by one third on a 2,5,000,000,000 scheme is a genuine proposal. It's pathetic ...


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    #4081
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,353 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    The y plan on blowing hundred of millions on pathetic brt lines. At the same time e80,000,000 to cut platform lengths by one third on a 2,5,000,000,000 scheme is a genuine proposal. It's pathetic ...
    One of which is to run parallel to Metro North, to provide cover whilst they redesign Metro North to make it more cost efficient.

    The mind ****ing boggles.


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