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Educate Together refuse school

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    #62
    corsav6
    Registered Users Posts: 1,597 ✭✭✭corsav6


    The road is an absolute disgrace and many sections are just wide enough to squeeze 2 cars through, so any bus would find it difficult. It's not the distance that's bothering most people but the location.


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    #63
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    martingriff wrote: »
    ????

    They want the same thing. A choice of school and who runs it. But to get what they want, they have to accept being shoved into a hovel and inconvenienced in terms of access.

    Hardly a level playing field, is it?


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    #64
    martingriff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,706 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    katydid wrote: »
    Yep, it is. He should be able to go to the nearest school on the same basis as other children in his neighbourhood.

    so we should start building Schools, churches, supermarkets, of all different kinds just incase someone may in future want to have one and heavens forbid they may have to go a bit to get to it. Sometimes it may not be economical to build something just incase.

    My Nephew was from an area where nobody was going to a Church or Ireland school it was build in an area where it would be of equal distance to most places in the area.


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    #65
    martingriff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,706 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    katydid wrote: »
    They want the same thing. A choice of school and who runs it. But to get what they want, they have to accept being shoved into a hovel and inconvenienced in terms of access.

    Hardly a level playing field, is it?

    Okay. the building was a horrible place and they should not have to go in to and every option should be done to have a purpose place for them. HOWEVER if the building had been fit for purpose and could suit there need then having it out a bit in the countryside (it not the middle of nowhere) is not discrimination or anything.


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    #66
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    martingriff wrote: »
    so we should start building Schools, churches, supermarkets, of all different kinds just incase someone may in future want to have one and heavens forbid they may have to go a bit to get to it. Sometimes it may not be economical to build something just incase.

    My Nephew was from an area where nobody was going to a Church or Ireland school it was build in an area where it would be of equal distance to most places in the area.

    No, we should have one school where all kids go, no matter what religion they are, or if they have no religion.

    If people want their kids to be taught what Roman Catholics or Protestants or Muslims believe, take them to church, or the mosque or whatever.

    Your nephew wouldn't have to go to a CofI school if nearby schools weren't indoctrinating children in RC beliefs.


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    #67
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    martingriff wrote: »
    Okay. the building was a horrible place and they should not have to go in to and every option should be done to have a purpose place for them. HOWEVER if the building had been fit for purpose and could suit there need then having it out a bit in the countryside (it not the middle of nowhere) is not discrimination or anything.

    So why don't the kids from the RC school have to travel out of town?


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    #68
    martingriff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,706 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    Right I am bowing out now as it is bedtime so this is a catch all to everyone I have been messaging with so my opinions are clear.

    1) That place that was given is horrible is not fit for human living for a school and it seem it was a F%^K U by whoever gave it I am guessing the RCC.

    2) Everything should be done to accommodate the children in the town if possible.

    3) I do not think it is discrimination to have to go to school in the countryside. I know plenty of people who have lived in towns and cities who have gone to schools in countryside and did not feel any less because of it. Either did they feel like less then human because they had to ride a bus.

    4) The school should be build as soon as possible in the town. Of course we will have to make sure it is in the centre of town with the rest and not somewhere else in the town as it will show discrimination


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    #69
    martingriff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,706 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    katydid wrote: »
    So why don't the kids from the RC school have to travel out of town?

    Because they allready have there school unless your suggesting that we tell them to clear out and give it to Educate Together now that would be discrimination


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    #70
    martingriff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,706 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    katydid wrote: »
    No, we should have one school where all kids go, no matter what religion they are, or if they have no religion.

    If people want their kids to be taught what Roman Catholics or Protestants or Muslims believe, take them to church, or the mosque or whatever.

    Your nephew wouldn't have to go to a CofI school if nearby schools weren't indoctrinating children in RC beliefs.

    That my friend you and I agree on. I do think religion itself should be thought in school but the subject religion not 1 religion


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    #71
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    katydid wrote: »
    No, we should have one school where all kids go, no matter what religion they are, or if they have no religion.

    In some mythic utopia maybe but as it stands limited resources says otherwise.

    But as it stands does it actually really matter it's consumer choice ,and when the kids get to secondary level they will sit the same junior cert and leaving cert and on to stuff that really matters .

    I'm happy to see my kids eucated to high standard ,
    I'd love to to learn Jedi but I don't think an educated together school or rc or Islam or Jewish will allow me or others to plonk prefabs on there grounds will they
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #72
    The_Valeyard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭The_Valeyard


    hardCopy wrote: »
    Local schools should never have been given a vote. Atheists are a minority, how would a school ever be divested by a popular vote under those circumstances? Of course the locals don't want to go secular, the need for a baptismal certs keeps the foreign kids out with their funny religions.

    No school should have any religious ethos, but as a stopgap a proportional number of religious schools in each area should be nationalised and taken over by the organisation that funds them, the DES. Locals should be consulted but the decision should be made centrally if they won't play ball.

    Ah, this is it really. Ban all religions from public life and you will have some sort of magic utopia. And if democracy fails to go the way to want it to go, then scream from the mountain tops about minorities and discrimination. Give over.


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    #73
    StudentDad
    Registered Users Posts: 1,457 ✭✭✭StudentDad


    The_Valeyard wrote: »
    Ah, this is it really. Ban all religions from public life and you will have some sort of magic utopia. And if democracy fails to go the way to want it to go, then scream from the mountain tops about minorities and discrimination. Give over.

    As it stands for the majority of parents in Ireland the options are limited when it comes to education. Usually it's the local state funded religious school up the road or home schooling. The latter isn't an option for most and the former isn't a desirable option for everyone either. So what? Like it or lump it? That's not good enough. We all pay taxes, we all fund the schools. How is it acceptable to allow one group the lions share of funding and control? How is that acceptable?

    The number of people who want an alternative is growing. We wouldn't be having this discussion otherwise.

    Personally I do not see a problem with divesting control of schools from religious organisations who insist that their ethos is paramount. Schools who accept funding from central govt. and expect to be able to discriminate in terms of intake. That is called having your cake and eat it. It is also discrimination.

    Trying to foist an abandoned, remote ruin on a group of people who want an alternative is also discriminatory. It's basically saying, 'you're not one of us, off to the Windy Gap with you.' These same people who pay the same taxes and obey the same laws are being told, 'that's your choice. Take it or leave it.'.

    SD


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    #74
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    The_Valeyard wrote: »
    Ah, this is it really. Ban all religions from public life and you will have some sort of magic utopia. And if democracy fails to go the way to want it to go, then scream from the mountain tops about minorities and discrimination. Give over.

    Who said anything about banning religion from public life? Less of the hysteria.


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    #75
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Gatling wrote: »
    In some mythic utopia maybe but as it stands limited resources says otherwise.

    But as it stands does it actually really matter it's consumer choice ,and when the kids get to secondary level they will sit the same junior cert and leaving cert and on to stuff that really matters .

    I'm happy to see my kids eucated to high standard ,
    I'd love to to learn Jedi but I don't think an educated together school or rc or Islam or Jewish will allow me or others to plonk prefabs on there grounds will they

    What have resources got to do with it. One primary school in an area, all children attending. It would make more sense than having two schools, one for Roman Catholics and one for others, with doubled up resources. Anyone who wanted to use the school premises for religious education after school hours would be free to do so.

    It's not really up to the Roman Catholic school what prefabs are put on its grounds. They may legally own the ground, but the state pays all their maintenance costs, staff salaries etc., so it would be a bit petty of them to refuse the use of their grounds so that other children could have a halfway decent, accessible school. Not very Christian...


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    #76
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,122 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    katydid wrote: »
    What have resources got to do with it. One primary school in an area, all children attending. It would make more sense than having two schools, one for Roman Catholics and one for others, with doubled up resources. Anyone who wanted to use the school premises for religious education after school hours would be free to do so.

    It's not really up to the Roman Catholic school what prefabs are put on its grounds. They may legally own the ground, but the state pays all their maintenance costs, staff salaries etc., so it would be a bit petty of them to refuse the use of their grounds so that other children could have a halfway decent, accessible school. Not very Christian...

    Land which the church bought with the tithes of ordinary people...does anyone remember when donations were 'read from the altar' names and all? Now some of the descendants of those people have achieved freedom from being blackmailed to tithe to the church, and want freedom to have their children educated outside that system...but 'the Church' holds the land and the authority still.


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    #77
    The_Valeyard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭The_Valeyard


    katydid wrote: »
    Who said anything about banning religion from public life? Less of the hysteria.

    Says the lady screaming discrimination and outrage.

    Or that other poster comparing it to apartheid.


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    #78
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    The_Valeyard wrote: »
    Says the lady screaming discrimination and outrage.

    Or that other poster comparing it to apartheid.

    Yes, I am outraged about discrimination. That has nothing to do with the fact that I made no mention of removing religion from public life.

    Try to stick to the facts. Hysteria does you no favours.


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    #79
    The_Valeyard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭The_Valeyard


    katydid wrote: »
    Yes, I am outraged about discrimination. That has nothing to do with the fact that I made no mention of removing religion from public life.

    Try to stick to the facts. Hysteria does you no favours.

    Yep, keep mentioning hysteria while you make it out that people who want educate together schools are treated like second class citizens. Why should the small minority of people be given a state of the art building or any building even when the locals don't want the patron to change, what gives you the right to demand everyone bow to your view of education. I have yet to hear of a case where a child has been turned away from a school because of their religion or lack of any.


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    #80
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    The_Valeyard wrote: »
    Yep, keep mentioning hysteria while you make it out that people who want educate together schools are treated like second class citizens. Why should the small minority of people be given a state of the art building or any building even when the locals don't want the patron to change, what gives you the right to demand everyone bow to your view of education. I have yet to hear of a case where a child has been turned away from a school because of their religion or lack of any.

    It's quite simple; if one group of town dwellers get to go to a nice modern school within walking distance, and another group get sent to a dump 8k outside the town, it's clear the second group are not being treated equally. That's a fact.

    Why shouldn't every Irish citizen be educated in a modern building?

    If you haven't heard of children being turned away from schools because of religion, you need to get out more. People are having kids baptised just to able to send them to school. In any case, being allowed into a religious school on sufferance, as long as you leave the class for the indoctrination part or sit and have their religious beliefs forced down your throat is hardly very Christian...


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    #81
    The_Valeyard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭The_Valeyard


    katydid wrote: »
    It's quite simple; if one group of town dwellers get to go to a nice modern school within walking distance, and another group get sent to a dump 8k outside the town, it's clear the second group are not being treated equally. That's a fact.


    No its not a fact, why should they be given the best of the best just to suit a new minority group??? How to do not know that the "nice modern school" has been trying to get funding for years to create its niceness, it probably started in prefabs are grew from there over many years with funding, as have a lot of schools in this small country of ours.
    katydid wrote: »

    Why shouldn't every Irish citizen be educated in a modern building?

    .

    Funding! It takes time, long time, look at how many areas across the land are crying out for school upgrades and improvements, education has been starved with the cutbacks since 2008
    katydid wrote: »
    If you haven't heard of children being turned away from schools because of religion, you need to get out more..

    I get out enough thank you, no need to make it personal. I do enjoy my personal life.
    katydid wrote: »
    In any case, being allowed into a religious school on sufferance, as long as you leave the class for the indoctrination part or sit and have their religious beliefs forced down your throat is hardly very Christian...

    Just shows your personal bias and hatred right there, your anti-catholic, referring to it as 'indoctrination'. You like to use all those lovely nasty words to make RC schools out to be some sort of concentration camp. Love how its "forced down your throat" I know for a fact in RC schools if you are not a catholic, you do an extra class of maths, art, etc in the neighbouring class or back of the room for those 40 minutes. No one "forces" it down your throat. And you accuse me of hysteria. Pot & kettle.


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    #82
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    The_Valeyard wrote: »
    Just shows your personal bias and hatred right there, your anti-catholic, referring to it as 'indoctrination'. You like to use all those lovely nasty words to make RC schools out to be some sort of concentration camp. Love how its "forced down your throat" I know for a fact in RC schools if you are not a catholic, you do an extra class of maths, art, etc in the neighbouring class or back of the room for those 40 minutes. No one "forces" it down your throat. And you accuse me of hysteria. Pot & kettle.

    Perhaps not but it's the principal of the thing. If someone chooses a particular faith they shouldn't be compelled to have their child educated in another faith. It's not always the case that a child is removed from class, not all schools have the resources for that. Even if they do religion is still part of the day from prayers in the morning to school masses etc. As a parent it's frustrating and its even more frustrating for it to be treated like a storm in a teacup. I'm sure no Christian parent would want their child educated in the Muslim faith or to be told that religion is all made up. A lot of parents have been hurt by the church or have family or friends hurt by it and don't want it as part of their lives. Our society is changing, it's time education caught up.


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    #83
    The_Valeyard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭The_Valeyard


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Perhaps not but it's the principal of the thing. If someone chooses a particular faith they shouldn't be compelled to have their child educated in another faith. It's not always the case that a child is removed from class, not all schools have the resources for that. Even if they do religion is still part of the day from prayers in the morning to school masses etc. As a parent it's frustrating and its even more frustrating for it to be treated like a storm in a teacup. I'm sure no Christian parent would want their child educated in the Muslim faith or to be told that religion is all made up. A lot of parents have been hurt by the church or have family or friends hurt by it and don't want it as part of their lives. Our society is changing, it's time education caught up.

    You make valid points, but parents have been voting on change, and in a lot of cases, only between 16 to 29% of parents wanted a patron or ethos change, I know a small number of Dublin schools were at 43-46%. It was a large public harassment to Ruairi Quinn, who must have spent far too much time listening to Nugent & Ó Ríordáin. Even Jan O' Sullivan is at logger heads with the ET group as they seem to want to pick and choose the location of the school and force out existing patrons, that has just got everyones back up against the wall.

    Some schools should most definitely be opened up for parents who wish to send their child to a non-denominational school but in areas where the demand is so minimal it doesn't make sense. Like you said about different religions earlier, say a group of 14 Muslims families demanded the State provide them with a local school with an Islamic cultural ethos (prayers, fasting, etc) you would hardly be in favour of the change of school, same with majority Catholic parents, may not be comfortable or even want a secular school for their children, they could be perfectly happy for their children to attend the local school the way it is.


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    #84
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    The_Valeyard wrote: »
    You make valid points, but parents have been voting on change, and in a lot of cases, only between 16 to 29% of parents wanted a patron or ethos change, I know a small number of Dublin schools were at 43-46%. It was a large public harassment to Ruairi Quinn, who must have spent far too much time listening to Nugent & Ó Ríordáin. Even Jan O' Sullivan is at logger heads with the ET group as they seem to want to pick and choose the location of the school and force out existing patrons, that has just got everyones back up against the wall.

    Some schools should most definitely be opened up for parents who wish to send their child to a non-denominational school but in areas where the demand is so minimal it doesn't make sense. Like you said about different religions earlier, say a group of 14 Muslims families demanded the State provide them with a local school with an Islamic cultural ethos (prayers, fasting, etc) you would hardly be in favour of the change of school, same with majority Catholic parents, may not be comfortable or even want a secular school for their children, they could be perfectly happy for their children to attend the local school the way it is.

    I don't think any new school should be a faith school. At least not until we have a bit of balance. Of course parents don't want an existing school to change, presumably most of those parents are in favour of a Catholic education. Ask the same group would they be okay with a new school in the area being ET and you would probably get a lot of support for it. But we don't need new schools in a lot of areas, we have plenty just the ethos is wrong for a lot of families. I don't think schools should be forced to drop religion but there has to be some way of structuring the school day so everyone is happy. ETA I don't think any other faith is a lifestyle choice like Catholicism is. I'd imagine other parents of faith would take on the role of religious education themselves or do it through the church. I live near a Catholic primary school, most of the kids on the street attend it. Our local church is empty most Sundays.


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    #85
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,481 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    *Mod Hat on :Can we stay on topic please and can we refrain from personal attacks / Mod Hat.


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    #86
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,481 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I don't think any new school should be a faith school. At least not until we have a bit of balance. Of course parents don't want an existing school to change, presumably most of those parents are in favour of a Catholic education. Ask the same group would they be okay with a new school in the area being ET and you would probably get a lot of support for it.
    Just to point out that ET schools do not hold the monopoly on multi-denom , many Gaelscoileanna are multi-d too.


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    #87
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,481 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Ok, locking thread for a bit, see if people can cool down and not get/take things personally.


This discussion has been closed.
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