The new, vicious fight

Canis Lupus · 05-07-2015 3:19am

Grayson wrote: »

Opinions have changed. Surveys have been done recently and there's a very large swing since 20 years ago. It's roughly 50/50

This is pretty much it. It hard to think just how far things have changed in 20 years. Go back to then and tell a priest that gay people will be able to marry and you'd be laughed out of it. People are becoming more liberal, maybe it's the internet generation I dunno but as the old guard (no pun intended) dies off the more and more likely it is that abortion will come up in a referendum and it'll pass.

On the downside I think it'll likely take another Savita type case to happen first

darkpagandeath · 05-07-2015 3:20am

RedemptionZ wrote: »

I'm pro choice, but I know plenty of people who aren't and would be pro life(or whatever term should be) and aren't religious at all. All of them would've voted yes on the marriage referendum too. People are allowed to hold other opinions to you and this one is far more defendable than the marriage one imo.

Its fine to have different views, But if they are in the minority a Referendum will tell us that. Society will move on just like always.

dubscottie · 05-07-2015 3:27am

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

Why do you seem to think that it is only religious people who are pro life, im not religious and i oppose it and lots of other people oppose it who are not religious but dont let that get in your way of your spin.
I would agree on your other idea.

I am not for free for all abortion. I was brought up a prod. and think free for all abortion is not the way to go. But it is 2015..

Religion should not be in any governments policy or a countries constitution.

RayM · 05-07-2015 3:28am

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I personally think if we were to have a referendum on repealing the 8th in the morning, that it would fail, and not simply on religious grounds either as some people here would presume would be the case.

The most militant and vociferous opposition to repealing the 8th comes from religious extremists, who are obsessed with what other people do with their own lives and bodies. Like the marriage equality and divorce referendums, the inevitable scaremongering posters will be erected by shadowy fundamentalist groups like Iona, etc. Their dishonesty and lack of any valid or coherent arguments throughout the marriage referendum campaign did their credibility no favours, and is still fresh in people's minds. Unless some kind of 'acceptable face' of the 'NO' campaign miraculously appears, I think a referendum would pass quite comfortably.

RedemptionZ · 05-07-2015 4:47am

RayM wrote: »

The most militant and vociferous opposition to repealing the 8th comes from religious extremists, who are obsessed with what other people do with their own lives and bodies. Like the marriage equality and divorce referendums, the inevitable scaremongering posters will be erected by shadowy fundamentalist groups like Iona, etc. Their dishonesty and lack of any valid or coherent arguments throughout the marriage referendum campaign did their credibility no favours, and is still fresh in people's minds. Unless some kind of 'acceptable face' of the 'NO' campaign miraculously appears, I think a referendum would pass quite comfortably.

I would vote pro choice, but honestly think a lot of people would be swayed by the 'killing a child' stance that the No side would take, especially parents. Definitely would be nowhere near the reception the 'a child deserves a mother and father' ****e got that came out last time. I honestly feel some people have more gripe with religion than anything else. I believe the argument is that they are 'controlling some bodies life' so that another life won't be killed. As I say I'm not pro life, as I don't consider the foetus to be a person but some do and you have to let them hold that view. But honestly some of you are as bad as the other, not acknowledging what people are saying and just going 'blah blah extremists' and shouting down anyone with a reasonable argument.

newmug · 05-07-2015 6:10am

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

Hope she gets charged with assault.
Militant left wing fascists, a good beating by the guards is what they would want.

HAHA! Were you the aul fella she hit?

:D:D

volchitsa · 05-07-2015 6:48am

dubscottie wrote: »

I am not for free for all abortion. I was brought up a prod. and think free for all abortion is not the way to go. But it is 2015..

Religion should not be in any governments policy or a countries constitution.

Repealing the 8th doesn't mean free for all abortion.

Most countries with limits on availability of abortion, even very strict limits, Poland for example, have no equivalent of the 8th. Doesn't force them to have "free for all" abortion, or anything close to it.

The 8th amendment was a religion-based initiative. If people now say, as someone just did on here, that they support to for other, non-religion-based reasons, then that in itself is a valid reason for rerunning the referendum.

meeeeh · 05-07-2015 7:23am

RedemptionZ wrote: »

I'm pro choice, but I know plenty of people who aren't and would be pro life(or whatever term should be) and aren't religious at all. All of them would've voted yes on the marriage referendum too. People are allowed to hold other opinions to you and this one is far more defendable than the marriage one imo.

Is it? I don't know many gay people who died because they were not able to marry .

I'm central European and it always struck (and annoyed) me how much worse attitude towards gay people is there and how much worse attitude towards women is here. I was totally in favour of gay referendum but it has mostly symbolic inclusive value because law already equalised a lot of rights on practical level.

It is a lot easier to understand people who are pro life because of their religious beliefs. I can't understand why others are, but I am 100% certain it is not humanity or compassion, it is more the control of the women and making sure they stay in their place as child rearing vessel. Regardless how much misery that brings. So no it is not much more defendable position.

greendom · 05-07-2015 7:43am

Irish society has a safety valve in the proximity of the UK. If this didn't exist the whole debate would be a lot more vicious.

One eyed Jack · 05-07-2015 9:23am

meeeeh wrote: »

It is a lot easier to understand people who are pro life because of their religious beliefs. I can't understand why others are, but I am 100% certain it is not humanity or compassion, it is more the control of the women and making sure they stay in their place as child rearing vessel. Regardless how much misery that brings. So no it is not much more defendable position.

The women I'm thinking of when I say that they are non-religious, but are against abortion on humanitarian grounds, are very much certain that the killing of the unborn child is wrong. They are some of the most compassionate people I know, and they aren't suggesting that they want women to stay in their place as a child rearing vessel. These are people whom I have a tremendous amount of respect for.

Who the hell am I to tell these women what way they should think when that is how they feel?

volchitsa · 05-07-2015 10:11am

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The women I'm thinking of when I say that they are non-religious, but are against abortion on humanitarian grounds, are very much certain that the killing of the unborn child is wrong. They are some of the most compassionate people I know, and they aren't suggesting that they want women to stay in their place as a child rearing vessel.

Well, they effectively are suggesting exactly that, you know, if their beliefs on abortion extend to enforcing those beliefs on other women. Even if they can't admit it to themselves or to others.

(Though I'm not sure if you've actually said whether these women you mention are simply against abortion as a personal option, or whether they are happy to enforce that view on other women, at the expense of those women's health, for example.

TBF, I suspect you are conflating the two sets of views.)

One eyed Jack wrote: »

These are people whom I have a tremendous amount of respect for.

Who the hell am I to tell these women what way they should think when that is how they feel?

That's a complete straw man. No-one has to want an abortion themselves, so no need to tell them they have to feel happy about the notion. The question is whether they are entitled to enforce the consequences of their belief on other women, and in most situations nowadays (contrary to a few short decades ago) the default position there is, no they aren't.

Dirty Dingus McGee · 05-07-2015 10:33am

There are probably thousands of people alive and living happy lives in Ireland right now because of our current abortion legislation . Because of that I'd choose to leave things the way they are and certainly not allow abortion as a solution to an unexpected pregnancy.

One life is worth a hell of a lot more than whatever hassle it causes on the mother to go the UK and have an abortion.

One eyed Jack · 05-07-2015 10:36am

volchitsa wrote: »

Well, they effectively are suggesting exactly that, you know, if their beliefs on abortion extend to enforcing those beliefs on other women. Even if they can't admit it to themselves or to others.

(Though I'm not sure if you've actually said whether these women you mention are simply against abortion as a personal option, or whether they are happy to enforce that view on other women, at the expense of those women's health, for example.

TBF, I suspect you are conflating the two sets of views.)

I should've been clearer - they are against abortion, and they have no interest in seeing abortion being legislated for in this country, and one of my friends was actually quite relieved when Claire Daly's recent abortion bill proposal was defeated by a majority of five to one -

http://www.thejournal.ie/dail-vote-labour-tds-1931025-Feb2015/

I think it's unfair to say that these women would be 'happy' to enforce their views on other women, but rather that they are more concerned with the life of the unborn child.

That's a complete straw man. No-one has to want an abortion themselves, so no need to tell them they have to feel happy about the notion. The question is whether they are entitled to enforce the consequences of their belief on other women, and in most situations nowadays (contrary to a few short decades ago) the default position there is, no they aren't.

Last time I checked, we live in a democracy. I may not agree with their opinion, but I can still respect that it is the way they feel and I can understand why they feel that way, so I'm not going to get into an argument with them where I know neither of us are going to move from our positions.

lazygal · 05-07-2015 10:43am

RedemptionZ wrote: »

I would vote pro choice, but honestly think a lot of people would be swayed by the 'killing a child' stance that the No side would take, especially parents. Definitely would be nowhere near the reception the 'a child deserves a mother and father' ****e got that came out last time. I honestly feel some people have more gripe with religion than anything else. I believe the argument is that they are 'controlling some bodies life' so that another life won't be killed. As I say I'm not pro life, as I don't consider the foetus to be a person but some do and you have to let them hold that view. But honestly some of you are as bad as the other, not acknowledging what people are saying and just going 'blah blah extremists' and shouting down anyone with a reasonable argument.

You'd be surprised. A lot of women my age who've had children in Ireland say being pregnant here has cemented their pro choice views. Hearing that women like me will lie about suicide to get abortions was incredibly insulting and pissed off a lot of on the fence people. I was pregnant when the 2013act passed and I'll never forgive the likes of Peter Mathews saying we're all going to die anyway as a reason women like me don't have access to abortion in Ireland. Same way the mothers and fathers matter brigade pissed off loads of people from non Mammy and Daddy families.

lazygal · 05-07-2015 10:44am

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

There are probably thousands of people alive and living happy lives in Ireland right now because of our current abortion legislation . Because of that I'd choose to leave things the way they are and certainly not allow abortion as a solution to an unexpected pregnancy.

One life is worth a hell of a lot more than whatever hassle it causes on the mother to go the UK and have an abortion.

People with planned pregnancies have abortions too.

LoonyLovegood · 05-07-2015 11:41am

The way I look at it, abortions are like brussel sprouts. Nearly everyone hates them, but many can agree that they're a necessary evil.

NachoBusiness · 05-07-2015 11:53am

lazygal wrote: »

Hearing that women like me will lie about suicide to get abortions was incredibly insulting and pissed off a lot of on the fence people.

You honestly think that some women wouldn't feign suicide ideation in order to obtain an abortion. Don't you think that is a little naive?

Lets be honest, this whole repeal the 8th (which I would support by) is really all just seen as a stepping stone by the vast majority of those campaigning for it. They exploited (and still exploit) the case of Savita Halappanavar and others so that they can reach their ultimate goal which is of course to see situation where that no woman in Ireland wishing to have an abortion will need to travel abroad in order to obtain one.

These clowns made that clear.

Hellrazer · 05-07-2015 12:04pm

Deleted User wrote: »

This resonates with me. I strongly identify as pro choice. But I also strongly identify as anti abortion.

There is a propaganda spin from many "pro life" or as I call them "anti choice" campaigners that "pro choice" means "pro abortion". And I think what they and the world needs to learn is that "pro choice" is probably almost as "anti abortion" as they are in general.

What does my head in on these anti abortion rallies is that the face of them seems to be middle aged men and you yourself have said that you do as much as you can so that abortions don't happen.

end as much energy as I can funding and supporting and debating for any and all initiatives that minimize the amount of abortions that happen in the world.

Can I ask why?Surely if you are pro choice then its nothing to do with you as a man.

See I cant see how someone can be pro choice and either anti or pro abortion--doesn't make sense.

This is a purely womens rights issue not a middle aged mens issue.

Myself Id be on the pro choice side of the argument.That doesn't mean Im either pro or anti abortion as you make it out so black and white.

Im exactly what "pro choice" means as in Im a man--its none of my business whatsoever what a woman or any other human being decides to do with his/her body.

frostyjacks · 05-07-2015 12:13pm

The abortionists who went there to cause trouble yesterday, do they behave like that all the time? It was like watching a pack of wild animals. It's disturbing to see how hate-filled they are. Hate for children, the unborn, for women, for democracy, for religion, hate for everything that doesn't fit into their weird moral code, if they even have morals at all. Thank God they're in the minority.

volchitsa · 05-07-2015 12:24pm

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

There are probably thousands of people alive and living happy lives in Ireland right now because of our current abortion legislation . Because of that I'd choose to leave things the way they are

There are thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, born because their parents or grandparents didn't have access to contraception. Is that a reason for banning that again too?

anothernight · 05-07-2015 12:35pm

Is 'stepping stone' the new 'slippery slope'?

Dirty Dingus McGee · 05-07-2015 12:37pm

volchitsa wrote: »

There are thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, born because their parents or grandparents didn't have access to contraception. Is that a reason for banning that again too?

There is a big difference between the two.To use a very basic analogy

In my opinion contraception is like putting a fence up to stop the neigbours dog getting into your yard

Abortion is like taking out a gun shooting the neighbours dog after he gets into your yard.

volchitsa · 05-07-2015 12:54pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I should've been clearer - they are against abortion, and they have no interest in seeing abortion being legislated for in this country, and one of my friends was actually quite relieved when Claire Daly's recent abortion bill proposal was defeated by a majority of five to one -

http://www.thejournal.ie/dail-vote-labour-tds-1931025-Feb2015/

I think it's unfair to say that these women would be 'happy' to enforce their views on other women, but rather that they are more concerned with the life of the unborn child.

As with your earlier claim about not making women serve as vessels, the fact of refusing to acknowledge something doesn't make it any less true.

They are happy to do so, insofar as they are convinced they are right to do so. Unless you mean they genuinely spend large chunks of their lives worried about how Miss Y is doing, and whether there may be others like her tomorrow or next month?

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Last time I checked, we live in a democracy. I may not agree with their opinion, but I can still respect that it is the way they feel and I can understand why they feel that way, so I'm not going to get into an argument with them where I know neither of us are going to move from our positions.

Not sure what the relevance is. If one of your neighbours or workmates let it be known that when he lived in SE Asia a decade ago he regularly had sex with 8 year olds, as it was commonplace for westerners to go out there for that reason, how likely is that you'd decide that because we have voted to allow people to travel, including, presumably, in order to have sex with children, therefore you should respect his views on the matter, and that he's an otherwise lovely person?

Pumpkinseeds · 05-07-2015 12:54pm

Deleted User wrote: »

This resonates with me. I strongly identify as pro choice. But I also strongly identify as anti abortion. I spend as much energy as I can funding and supporting and debating for any and all initiatives that minimize the amount of abortions that happen in the world.

There is a propaganda spin from many "pro life" or as I call them "anti choice" campaigners that "pro choice" means "pro abortion". And I think what they and the world needs to learn is that "pro choice" is probably almost as "anti abortion" as they are in general.

We want abortion to be available to all - because there has been no moral arguments of any note leveled against it - but we want to invest in every idea and initiative out there to ensure it never happens. Most pro choice people do not actually want abortions to happen.

So rather than fight each other over pro or anti abortion - perhaps some day we can accept abortion and work together to find ways to ensure it never happens. Oh the ideal world in my head.

I'm sorry but either I haven't yet woken up properly or you are repeatedly contradicting yourself. What you appear to be saying is that you are pro choice and want women to have the right to an abortion, but you are actively looking for ways to prevent them having abortions. That makes no sense. I totally disagree with you that most pro choice people are against abortion.

Merces · 05-07-2015 12:58pm

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

I'm sorry but either I haven't yet woken up properly or you are repeatedly contradicting yourself. What you appear to be saying is that you are pro choice and want women to have the right to an abortion, but you are actively looking for ways to prevent them having abortions. That makes no sense. I totally disagree with you that most pro choice people are against abortion.

He/she means that people should have the right to have an abortion but hopes people choose not to have one and wants to find ways to diminish the factors that lead to people choosing to have abortions. This is pretty much my view also.

Not a NSA agent · 05-07-2015 12:59pm

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

There is a big difference between the two.To use a very basic analogy

In my opinion contraception is like putting a fence up to stop the neigbours dog getting into your yard

Abortion is like taking out a gun shooting the neighbours dog after he gets into your yard.

But you said it should stay the way it is because some people alive today wouldn't be alive if abortion was allowed, in that way it is the exact same reason to be against contraception. Either you are concerned about preventing people being born or not.

How many people aren't born because someone got a blowjob?

Pumpkinseeds · 05-07-2015 1:02pm

Merces wrote: »

He/she means that people should have the right to have an abortion but hopes people choose not to have one and wants to find ways to diminish the factors that lead to people choosing to have abortions. This is pretty much my view also.

It doesn't read like that to me. It reads as though the poster wants to make it as difficult as possible for a woman to access an abortion but wants to appear to be pro choice.

Dirty Dingus McGee · 05-07-2015 1:06pm

Not a NSA agent wrote: »

But you said it should stay the way it is because some people alive today wouldn't be alive if abortion was allowed, in that way it is the exact same reason to be against contraception. Either you are concerned about preventing people being born or not.

How many people aren't born because someone got a blowjob?

I'm concerned about life being stopped once it has been created.I don't think that's an unreasonable or difficult concept to grasp in fairness.

volchitsa · 05-07-2015 1:09pm

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

There is a big difference between the two.To use a very basic analogy

In my opinion contraception is like putting a fence up to stop the neigbours dog getting into your yard

Abortion is like taking out a gun shooting the neighbours dog after he gets into your yard.

In bold is the crucial bit of that post though.

How far do you think your analogy goes? What if it's actually your own dog that's threatening you? Don't you have a right to kill it then? I think you do. Actually I'm fairly sure you're allowed to put your own dog down for pretty much any reason, as long as you do so humanely.

So yes, you can't kill someone else's dog, but you can kill your own.

strelok · 05-07-2015 1:13pm

so we're having a referendum on infanticide now?

The new, vicious fight

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