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Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information


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C/F pistol licensing pertaining to vets?

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  • 28-08-2014 1:43pm
    #1
    Zxthinger
    Registered Users Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭


    Just a simple question
    Are vets still able to licence a single shot centrefire pistol for their work related situations.. And if so how does the law allow for their exceptional circumstances ?

    Tnx Lads and ladies for insight on this one!

    All opinions welcome! Good or bad lol


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    #2
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Vets never had to licence them in the first place.

    From section 2 of the Act:
    2.—(1) Subject to the exceptions from this section hereinafter mentioned, it shall not be lawful for any person ... to have in his possession, use, or carry any firearm or ammunition save in so far as such possession, use, or carriage is authorised by a firearm certificate granted under this Act and for the time being in force.

    ...

    (3) This section shall not apply to any of the following cases and such cases are accordingly excepted from this section, that is to say:—

    ...

    ( g ) the possession, carriage, or use of a humane killer or ammunition therefor in the ordinary course of business by a butcher, slaughterman, knacker, or other person engaged in the business of the humane slaughter of animals.

    Vets came under "other person" in section g. Anecdotally, those vets who suddenly found themselves faced with the necessity of dispatching large numbers of large animals during the foot&mouth epidemics were issued with revolvers temporarily by the AGS for that purpose. What they do on a day-to-day, just-in-case-the-horse-at-the-farm-needs-shooting basis, I don't know.


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    #3
    .243
    Registered Users Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭.243


    They use a bolt gun as used in slaughter houses


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    #4
    Boiled-egg
    Registered Users Posts: 397 ✭✭Boiled-egg


    Feck me, !! Knackers allowed guns


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    #5
    J. Ramone
    Registered Users Posts: 297 ✭✭J. Ramone


    I've heard a captive bolt does not penetrate enough for horses.


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    #6
    deerhunter1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,696 ✭✭✭deerhunter1


    Sparks wrote: »
    Vets never had to licence them in the first place.

    From section 2 of the Act:


    Vets came under "other person" in section g. Anecdotally, those vets who suddenly found themselves faced with the necessity of dispatching large numbers of large animals during the foot&mouth epidemics were issued with revolvers temporarily by the AGS for that purpose. What they do on a day-to-day, just-in-case-the-horse-at-the-farm-needs-shooting basis, I don't know.

    I know a mate who deer hunts, who has a .22 semi pistol he got a licence for,for dispatching wounded deer,and NOT a member of any pistol club. Carries it when going deer stalking


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    #7
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    deerhunter1 wrote: »
    I know a mate who deer hunts, who has a .22 semi pistol he got a licence for,for dispatching wounded deer,and NOT a member of any pistol club. Carries it when going deer stalking

    Then your mate is carrying an unlicenced firearm because it's not legal to get a pistol for that reason, which means his licence is null and void...


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    #8
    deerhunter1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,696 ✭✭✭deerhunter1


    Sparks wrote: »
    Then your mate is carrying an unlicenced firearm because it's not legal to get a pistol for that reason, which means his licence is null and void...
    I dont think so he applied for that reason and was granted for that reason by the super
    I know of other persons who have permits granted for same


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    #9
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,469 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    I think its the same as getting an unrestricted license for a restricted gun. The license would stand void.

    I was offered the same some years ago for dispatching deer, but choose not to as the sh*t storm about pistols was in full swing.
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    #10
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    deerhunter1 wrote: »
    I dont think so he applied for that reason and was granted for that reason by the super
    I know of other persons who have permits granted for same

    Actually, I have to put my hand up and say I'm wrong here - if the licence is specifically granted for "humane dispatch" (you wouldn't get it for "hunting" because of the Wildlife Act requirements on caliber and such if talking about deer -- dunno about things like rabbits but I can't see a pistol being useful for that) and your Super was willing, it is legal (it'd be down as "Other" on the FCA1 and it'd get round the hunting restriction because you'd be dispatching an injured animal, which doesn't have legal requirements for the instrument used for obvious* reasons). I thought the law had changed about five years ago, but nope, this edge case was missed.

    Can't imagine the PTB would be happy if every hunter put in an application for one tomorrow, mind you.



    *Well, obvious to anyone who's ever come across an animal that's been clipped by a hit-and-run driver when not carrying a firearm in the boot...


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    #11
    .243
    Registered Users Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭.243


    Sparks wrote: »
    Actually, I have to put my hand up and say I'm wrong here - if the licence is specifically granted for "humane dispatch" (you wouldn't get it for "hunting" because of the Wildlife Act requirements on caliber and such if talking about deer -- dunno about things like rabbits but I can't see a pistol being useful for that) and your Super was willing, it is legal (it'd be down as "Other" on the FCA1 and it'd get round the hunting restriction because you'd be dispatching an injured animal, which doesn't have legal requirements for the instrument used for obvious* reasons). I thought the law had changed about five years ago, but nope, this edge case was missed.

    Can't imagine the PTB would be happy if every hunter put in an application for one tomorrow, mind you.



    *Well, obvious to anyone who's ever come across an animal that's been clipped by a hit-and-run driver when not carrying a firearm in the boot...

    could it be possible then for a current pistol licence holder who is also a deer stalker to have his pistol license ammended to include use for dispatch purposes ???


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    #12
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    .243 wrote: »
    could it be possible then for a current pistol licence holder who is also a deer stalker to have his pistol license ammended to include use for dispatch purposes ???

    Um, I'm going to list some points rather than give you a short-but-crappy answer :D
    • The FCA2 form doesn't allow for changing the reason for having the licence (whether to amend or replace that reason) so you'd have to do some scribbling;
    • The law permits this, but not explicitly - it's more that it's not forbidden. So you would really need the Super on your side because this isn't the kind of thing the Minister of the day envisioned (and we know that because Ahern was trying to ban handguns outright);
    • You're still going to be restricted to a .22lr pistol which may or may not be enough pistol for the job -- this used to be done with single-shot .32s or larger don't forget (btw, that link is from before the last change in the law, hence the confusion);
    • Just because something is possible does not mean it's probable, likely, common or that your Super will do it. I mean, according to physics, it's possible that you could walk through a solid wall via quantum tunnelling (no, seriously, that's a thing). It's just that while it's possible, the probability of that happening is very very very low - you could walk at that wall once a second for a few hundred trillion years without going through it - but it's still possible.

    Keeping all that in mind - and especially that last point which you need to reread - yes, it's possible.


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    #13
    thehippychippy
    Registered Users Posts: 220 ✭✭thehippychippy


    Sparks wrote: »
    Um, I'm going to list some points rather than give you a short-but-crappy answer :D
    • The FCA2 form doesn't allow for changing the reason for having the licence (whether to amend or replace that reason) so you'd have to do some scribbling;
    • The law permits this, but not explicitly - it's more that it's not forbidden. So you would really need the Super on your side because this isn't the kind of thing the Minister of the day envisioned (and we know that because Ahern was trying to ban handguns outright);
    • You're still going to be restricted to a .22lr pistol which may or may not be enough pistol for the job -- this used to be done with single-shot .32s or larger don't forget (btw, that link is from before the last change in the law, hence the confusion);
    • Just because something is possible does not mean it's probable, likely, common or that your Super will do it. I mean, according to physics, it's possible that you could walk through a solid wall via quantum tunnelling (no, seriously, that's a thing). It's just that while it's possible, the probability of that happening is very very very low - you could walk at that wall once a second for a few hundred trillion years without going through it - but it's still possible.

    Keeping all that in mind - and especially that last point which you need to reread - yes, it's possible.
    I'm not trolling or taking the p**s but I love the quantum tunneling reference. Yes, it's possible, but.... classic. Going to rob that one on you right after I Google it!!


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    #14
    mrbrianj
    Registered Users Posts: 383 ✭✭mrbrianj


    Also for deer stalkers on Coillte leases, the terms of the lease prohibit use of handguns.

    Might make it harder to argue it out with your Super if such a big stake holder was against it on their lands.(well it would make the quantum tunnel that bit more difficult to find)


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    #15
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,956 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    J. Ramone wrote: »
    I've heard a captive bolt does not penetrate enough for horses.

    Mostly lethal injection these days,with sodium phentathol.Only place you might want a firearm would be with a very dangerous animal that has run amuck IE a bull,but for it to be effective you would need him in a cattle crush,and I wouldnt fancy your chances with a single shot 32 out in the field with 2tons of enraged beef coming for you.In that case a pump or semi 12 Ga stuffed full of 12 GA slugs might be somewhat wiser.But then again how often does this happen in the day to day life of a vets career,farmyard,or stud farm?

    As for the handgun for humane dispatch deer stalking ...Well we pretty much missed THAT boat here on boards in many debates in 2007/08. Despite it being a requirement on the Continent to carry a pistol or suitable firearm for following up wounded game.It is even a possibility in the UK with its handgun ban id you are a PROFESSIONAL Stalker..IE you make a living or part time income ASFIK in stalking or culling deer. How many of us would fit into that category?Also whats the chance that if they did allow it,you would proably end up with a .32 cal derringer type thing?After all this is only going to be "up close and personal" and you wont need more than two shots??

    As said in theory possible,in practise....

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #16
    robertpatterson
    Registered Users Posts: 929 ✭✭✭robertpatterson


    Probably a bit of a thick question but here goes
    Why not shoot the injured deer with your centrefire rifle,or failing that if its badly enough injured just cut the throat and be done with it


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    #17
    juice1304
    Registered Users Posts: 1,805 ✭✭✭juice1304


    robertpatterson wrote: »
    Probably a bit of a thick question but here goes
    Why not shoot the injured deer with your centrefire rifle,or failing that if its badly enough injured just cut the throat and be done with it

    Shooting a rifle at such a short distance can be extremely dangerous or ricochet etc.. a pistol would be much better suited for the job. I for one would much rather a pistol for this even if it were only a single shot.


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    #18
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,469 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Imagine shooting a .243, 6.5, .270. 308 or even .300WinMag at point blank range. A bullet that can do in excess of 2,700 fps. I wouldn't fancy it.

    Be safer to use a subsonic or low powered caliber in pistol form.
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    #19
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,956 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Good question. For a number of reasons using your CF rifle might not be a good idea.
    1] Animals when hurt or injured will try to get away from the area they are hurt in and make for deep cover to lie down and rest and /or die.That can mean very deep dense brush, in forestry thickets. Try getting a clear shot on an injured animal in that type of cover with a long CF rifle might be more dangerous or awkward or both to you if the animal decides to rush you to either attack or get away from you again.Also more than likely you will have a scope on the rifle set up for medium to long range not close to ultra close range,in that case you will proably see nothing but moving hair in the scope and possibly be not aware of "the bigger picture" around you as to whats going on.
    2] Possible richoect danger from a CF rifle at short range is greater.

    3] Cutting a "badly injured" animals throat can seriously backfire on you.As two of my family and one professional hunter can attest to.They have been hunting for over 30 years each and have in two cases got hand tendon damage where a Roe deer buck managed to still put a prong thru their hands,and another female kicked out and hit the other in the gonads.BTW Roe deer are compared to our native species pretty small.So trying to cut a pumped up with testosterone rutting Red stags throat in close quarters could be a great youtube moment.:pac:
    You need a special knife for this job and you do not cut the throat.You really need to get behind the beast and aim to sever the spine at the base of the skull between the skull and first or second vertebrae. The knife used for this is a long 8 to 12 in double edged spear point affair called a Hirsh fanger [deer catcher Trans].Its an awkward thing to be lugging around the forest with one special purpose,as a GP hunting knife its useless. So this can be a really hairy job if your stag is still active enough to get up and defend itself.Hence the reason a handgun might be a much better option in certain circumstances.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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