Limerick Northern Distributor Road

KrisW1001 · 03-02-2021 5:42pm

https://www.limerick.ie/sites/default/files/media/documents/2017-05/sl-101_scheme_layout_2.pdf

what_traffic · 03-02-2021 5:56pm

KrisW1001 wrote: »

https://www.limerick.ie/sites/default/files/media/documents/2017-05/sl-101_scheme_layout_2.pdf

Date of drawing is: 30.05.2011
Approval date is: 30.04.2013

Is this the latest "current" drawing?

KrisW1001 · 05-02-2021 2:13pm

Eamon Ryan and Willie O'Dea were on Morning Ireland this morning about this scheme.

https://www.rte.ie/news/munster/2021/0205/1195241-limerick/

If you didn't know the parties, you'd think O'Dea was the Green: his arguments for the road were centred on improved public environment, preventing rat-runs through residential areas, and enabling better bus public transport. Meanwhile one of Ryan's arguments was that he wanted a new scheme that would open up further development.

I despair of the Greens sometimes. As a party, they really don't understand the concept of doing something because it will make things better even if it won't be perfect; and they have a nasty tendency of throwing goodies at people who can well afford them. True to form, a totally new (and unfeasible) rail and transport scheme was offered as the alternative to this modest road improvement. Eamon Ryan really made me angry by saying that rail should be prioritised over this road. To me, that sounded like "we want rail, because middle-class professionals will be able to use those trains too, whereas this road would just encourage poor people to drive their dirty, old cars".

Grr.

spacetweek · 05-02-2021 9:30pm

KrisW1001 wrote: »

Eamon Ryan really made me angry by saying that rail should be prioritised over this road. To me, that sounded like "we want rail, because middle-class professionals will be able to use those trains too, whereas this road would just encourage poor people to drive their dirty, old cars".
Grr.

Isn’t rail often in this country assumed to be for the poor (and carless) whereas new roads are for the car-owning middle class?

what_traffic · 05-02-2021 9:49pm

spacetweek wrote: »

Isn’t rail often in this country assumed to be for the poor (and carless) whereas new roads are for the car-owning middle class?

True for buses for sure,....... cars are expensive to run.

yabadabado · 06-02-2021 1:28am

KrisW1001 wrote: »

Eamon Ryan and Willie O'Dea were on Morning Ireland this morning about this scheme.

https://www.rte.ie/news/munster/2021/0205/1195241-limerick/

If you didn't know the parties, you'd think O'Dea was the Green: his arguments for the road were centred on improved public environment, preventing rat-runs through residential areas, and enabling better bus public transport. Meanwhile one of Ryan's arguments was that he wanted a new scheme that would open up further development.

I despair of the Greens sometimes. As a party, they really don't understand the concept of doing something because it will make things better even if it won't be perfect; and they have a nasty tendency of throwing goodies at people who can well afford them. True to form, a totally new (and unfeasible) rail and transport scheme was offered as the alternative to this modest road improvement. Eamon Ryan really made me angry by saying that rail should be prioritised over this road. To me, that sounded like "we want rail, because middle-class professionals will be able to use those trains too, whereas this road would just encourage poor people to drive their dirty, old cars".

Grr.

I was listening to that earlier and couldn't get over how mental this is.
They now want to half build the route and also want rail.

I don't think anyone but the GP thinks this road isn't a good idea and obviously if they could also have rail it would be brilliant but the road makes perfect sense.

pigtown · 06-02-2021 9:51am

yabadabado wrote: »

I don't think anyone but the GP thinks this road isn't a good idea and obviously if they could also have rail it would be brilliant but the road makes perfect sense.

Well I don't think the scale of the road makes sense. A dual carriageway with median barriers is certainly overspec for a road that is only supposed to facilitate greater access to and development in the area. Even the Dock Road, Raheen Industrial Estate, and University/Technology Park don't have such high spec roads.

It's clearly designed as the first stage of a bypass of the city which itself is envisaged to open up more Greenfield land for low density car-centric development, including a new town at the university. This sort of sprawl is recognized to be a bad idea and it goes against national policy.

It's unfortunate that the people of Moyross are getting caught in the crossfire but I don't disagree with the contention that the current plan goes against all current thinking on sustainable development

Pete_Cavan · 06-02-2021 10:39am

Whatever about this stretch of road, the full Limerick Northern Distributor Road is last century thinking. Unless land has already been CPOed, I think it would make sense for this new road to join Knockalisheen Road further south with the intention to extend to the R464 as the next phase and potentially to the R463 thereafter. The existing road should be converted to a general traffic lane + bus lane in each direction.

Cookiemunster · 06-02-2021 6:42pm

Land acquisition and preparatory work has already been done at a cost of €17m. The contractor to build it has been chosen and it is literally only waiting on Ryan's sign off for work to begin.

hans aus dtschl · 09-02-2021 3:28pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Whatever about this stretch of road, the full Limerick Northern Distributor Road is last century thinking. Unless land has already been CPOed, I think it would make sense for this new road to join Knockalisheen Road further south with the intention to extend to the R464 as the next phase and potentially to the R463 thereafter. The existing road should be converted to a general traffic lane + bus lane in each direction.

I'd be broadly in agreement with this.
If it's a distributor, it shouldn't be dual carriageway, it needs a dedicated bus priority lane.

marno21 · 09-02-2021 3:35pm

What's the actual planned alignment for this road

Is it not 60km/h one lane + one bus lane in either direction seperated by a kerb median with pedestrian/cyclist facilities? With all junctions either roundabouts or traffic lights? Sort of like the Groody-Parkway except with a bus lane?

hans aus dtschl · 09-02-2021 3:45pm

marno21 wrote: »

What's the actual planned alignment for this road

Is it not 60km/h one lane + one bus lane in either direction seperated by a kerb median with pedestrian/cyclist facilities? With all junctions either roundabouts or traffic lights? Sort of like the Groody-Parkway except with a bus lane?

That's exactly what I thought it was yep.
Which would be a pretty textbook distributor design right now.
But some people above are saying it's just a dual carriageway. If it's just a bog standard dual carriageway it might not be fit for purpose as a distributor.

pigtown · 09-02-2021 3:58pm

The description on the council website doesn't mention a bus lane. Do distributer roads have median barriers? I would have thought they aren't suitable to urban areas

KrisW1001 · 09-02-2021 4:09pm

The original design document says:

"1 x 2.6m wide central reserve;
2 x 7.0m carriageways, with 2 traffic lanes in each direction;
2 x 1.5m grass verge shoulders;
2 x 2.5m two-way cycle track;
2 x 2.0m footpath;
2 x 1.0m grass verge;"

Note that there's no mention of a central barrier (and the wider median may be because there is no barrier; 2+2 roads have a 1.5 metre median, including barrier). Also:

"Design speed for the proposed mainline road is 85 kph." and "A speed limit of 80 km/h is proposed, which is the statutory speed for all nonnational rural roads". The design-speed is important to note: this is not even a 2+2 road (design speed of ~110km/h, posted limit 100)

(source: https://www.limerick.ie/sites/default/files/lndr_route_selection.pdf )

The document does not explicitly say there will be dedicated bus lanes, but it does mention improved bus transport as a positive outcome of the scheme. Having a dual carriageway in place allows permanent bus lanes to be installed later at a very low cost, something that cannot be said for a single carriageway road

Cookiemunster · 09-02-2021 4:25pm

This is the 300m section beside Tesco Coonagh that was done as part of the advance works. The rest of the road is due to be the same.
https://www.google.ie/maps/@52.675494,-8.6738463,3a,75y,351.39h,90.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKvD6XemRHKFNS4C1iCECzQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

Cookiemunster · 10-02-2021 10:55am

Ryan has backed down and signed off the road.
https://twitter.com/LimerickCouncil/status/1359439359406206980

TheWonderLlama · 10-02-2021 11:36am

They need to build a few roundabouts for all the u-turns they're doing.

mydiscworld · 10-02-2021 1:29pm

https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2021/0210/1196202-moyross-road-project/

Limerick road project will proceed without delay - Ryan

pigtown · 10-02-2021 2:35pm

So one lane in each direction will be a bus lane. I get the desire to make the project more sustainable but are there really enough buses proposed to need dedicated lanes?

Cookiemunster · 10-02-2021 3:42pm

pigtown wrote: »

So one lane in each direction will be a bus lane. I get the desire to make the project more sustainable but are there really enough buses proposed to need dedicated lanes?

No, there aren't. And the fact that it's to be a dual carriageway means that a dedicated bus lane isn't needed either.

Also he's talking BS about extra pedestrian facilities and cycleways. They were always part of the plan which can be seen in the map KrisW1001 attached earlier in the thread.

According to the Limerick Post an unnamed source in government has said that the Taoiseach and Tainaiste forced him to sign off on the project. https://www.limerickpost.ie/2021/02/10/limerick-regeneration-road-will-go-ahead-despite-months-of-controversy-over-delay-in-funding/

hans aus dtschl · 10-02-2021 3:51pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

No, there aren't. And the fact that it's to be a dual carriageway means that a dedicated bus lane isn't needed either.

Also he's talking BS about extra pedestrian facilities and cycleways. They were always part of the plan which can beseen in the map KrisW1001 attached earlier in the thread.

With respect, I'd like to disagree that dual carriageway means that dedicated bus lane "isn't needed".
Near me:
Tivoli Dual Carriageway / Car Park
Horgan's Quay Dual Carriageway / Car Park
Cork South Link Inbound Dual Carriageway / Car Park
would all benefit significantly from the left-most lane being dedicated to sustainable transport.

In each of the above, the additional "general" lane does nothing to improve traffic, for hours of the day they're bumper-to-bumper, and buses are held up by cars.

If you don't design for sustainable transport at the outset, it's always going to be a tougher job to retrofit. If it's an urban distributor it needs to have sustainable transport prioritised, or it will certainly fail in a few years.

Note that I've been in favour of this distributor from the outset, but I'm not in favour of a half-assed dual carriageway.

Cookiemunster · 10-02-2021 4:04pm

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

With respect, I'd like to disagree that dual carriageway means that dedicated bus lane "isn't needed".
Near me:
Tivoli Dual Carriageway / Car Park
Horgan's Quay Dual Carriageway / Car Park
Cork South Link Inbound Dual Carriageway / Car Park
would all benefit significantly from the left-most lane being dedicated to sustainable transport.

In each of the above, the additional "general" lane does nothing to improve traffic, for hours of the day they're bumper-to-bumper, and buses are held up by cars.

If you don't design for sustainable transport at the outset, it's always going to be a tougher job to retrofit. If it's an urban distributor it needs to have sustainable transport prioritised, or it will certainly fail in a few years.

Note that I've been in favour of this distributor from the outset, but I'm not in favour of a half-assed dual carriageway.

This isn't Cork and it won't have anywhere near those levels of traffic. The nearby roads (which this will remove some traffic from) are never a 'car park' and this won't be either. Its unlikely to ever need a dedicated bus lane.

hans aus dtschl · 10-02-2021 4:51pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

This isn't Cork and it won't have anywhere near those levels of traffic. The nearby roads (which this will remove some traffic from) are never a 'car park' and this won't be either. Its unlikely to ever need a dedicated bus lane.

But I don't understand: why would a second general traffic lane be helpful if a bus lane wasn't also helpful? If you get my meaning, either traffic will be heavy or it wont, and it's in an urban area?

Pete_Cavan · 10-02-2021 5:03pm

The levels of traffic there are unlikely to justify two general traffic lanes anyway but the existence of them will allow traffic levels grow towards that level over time, which is not a good thing. Better to have under-utilised bus lanes and incentivise greater use of buses rather than incentivise people to drive and then be unable to implement bus lanes in the future due to a supposed lack of demand for buses.

KrisW1001 · 10-02-2021 7:23pm

I really can't help thinking that Eamon Ryan has only recently read the design documents for this scheme, and that up to this point he may have been under the impression that this was a motorway. It would be consistent with the abrupt change in position.

Regarding bus lanes, the original 2012 design mentions enhanced bus provision several times, but stops short of specifying a permanent bus corridor. It's certainly possible, but paradoxically, the only way to justify a permanent bus corridor would be to complete the northern arc of this road and allow orbital bus services to use it... but that section of the road is much harder to justify.

riddlinrussell · 11-02-2021 4:56pm

KrisW1001 wrote: »

I really can't help thinking that Eamon Ryan has only recently read the design documents for this scheme, and that up to this point he may have been under the impression that this was a motorway. It would be consistent with the abrupt change in position.

Regarding bus lanes, the original 2012 design mentions enhanced bus provision several times, but stops short of specifying a permanent bus corridor. It's certainly possible, but paradoxically, the only way to justify a permanent bus corridor would be to complete the northern arc of this road and allow orbital bus services to use it... but that section of the road is much harder to justify.

My reading of things is he decided to 'hold the road to ransom' in order to get a commitment to open up Moyross area for walking/cycling/buses etc more. At least I've seen comments from Moyross community groups praising the green party actions on Moyross, saying they are the ones who have been fighting to get the walls taken down and get them connected to Limerick without having to drive.

KrisW1001 · 11-02-2021 6:01pm

I'd buy that, except that the road project already had cycling and walking facilities included, and has had since its inception. Also, there has been no change to the LNDR project itself between him blocking it and re-allowing it. The opening of the cul-de-sacs is a separate project that could have been pushed without stopping the road first.

Withholding something that benefits the area because something else that benefits the area isn't in place seems like a very strange tactic, but it fits the pattern of making perfect the enemy of good that characterises the Green Party in general. (I am a Green voter, but I really, really wish they'd look up the word "pragmatism"; too many times they pick stupid hills to die on and we get no progress at all on environmental improvements)

I do still think my original assessment is much more likely: until last week, I bet that Eamon Ryan thought that this road was a motorway.

what_traffic · 12-02-2021 10:29am

KrisW1001 wrote: »

I'd buy that, except that the road project already had cycling and walking facilities included, and has had since its inception. Also, there has been no change to the LNDR project itself between him blocking it and re-allowing it. The opening of the cul-de-sacs is a separate project that could have been pushed without stopping the road first.

Which is more important to the local Community?
What are the desire lines / places along LNDR from a cycling and walking perspective currently? These facilities will perhaps really come into there own 20yrs down the road. Do the Community really want more cycling and walking connectivity along this corridor or south towards the City?

KrisW1001 · 12-02-2021 11:49am

what_traffic wrote: »

Which is more important to the local Community?
What are the desire lines / places along LNDR from a cycling and walking perspective currently? These facilities will perhaps really come into there own 20yrs down the road. Do the Community really want more cycling and walking connectivity along this corridor or south towards the City?

This is a false dichotomy. It was never a question of one or the other.

Not having something like the LNDR has created many of the economic problems in this part of Limerick. Poor transport links in this part of the city means few jobs are created in the area, near to people's homes. But because this problem is "built in" to the area and has existed for so long, I guess not so many see it as a thing that urgently needs to be fixed.

The LNDR is also essential if you want to open out the streets for better bus transport, because without a quick, predictable alternative route, removing cul-de-sacs will just create rat-runs through residential areas.

And there's no single "community" in any area with a population of this size. What one group of people thinks is important is of no use to another... but they can still both be right.

what_traffic · 12-02-2021 12:40pm

KrisW1001 wrote: »

The LNDR is also essential if you want to open out the streets for better bus transport, because without a quick, predictable alternative route, removing cul-de-sacs will just create rat-runs through residential areas.

And there's no single "community" in any area with a population of this size. What one group of people thinks is important is of no use to another... but they can still both be right.

Who is the community

One can easily remove cul-de-sacs for buses and people who cycle & walk without creating car rat-runs through residential areas. If the will was there.
Perhaps those in power locally needed a nudge and push.
Don't see much money been drawn down by the local authority for this area when looking at the recent Sustainable transport funding announcement yesterday.
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Combined-Allocations-Final-20210203-002.pdf
Page 21/22 for Limerick City

KrisW1001 · 12-02-2021 3:14pm

I don't understand what your argument is here. Do you think this phase of the LNDR should not have been built?

mart 23 · 14-02-2021 7:26pm

Is it known who was awarded the contract to extend the road to Knocklisheen.

Limerick74 · 14-02-2021 9:09pm

mart 23 wrote: »

Is it known who was awarded the contract to extend the road to Knocklisheen.

Roadbridge

spacetweek · 15-02-2021 4:10pm

Ryan gets ripped new a**hole by other TDs. Proper order.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/miriam-lord-ryan-s-u-turn-on-limerick-road-fails-to-keep-keating-on-board-1.4483605

marno21 · 12-03-2021 1:09am

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders/ViewNotice/242266

Tender award to Roadbridge. €28.74m

Cookiemunster · 12-03-2021 11:01am

As Limerick74 said above, it was already known that Roadbridge had it, but I suppose it couldn't be signed off officially until Ryan u-turned.

marno21 · 12-03-2021 12:26pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

As Limerick74 said above, it was already known that Roadbridge had it, but I suppose it couldn't be signed off officially until Ryan u-turned.

Tender awards are never published immediately anyway. I always post the award notice so anyone looking for the detail can have a look (number of bids/bid ranges etc)

Cookiemunster · 26-03-2021 2:54pm

Works have officially begun on the Coonagh to Knockalisheen section. https://www.limerick.ie/council/newsroom/news/main-contract-works-begin-coonagh-knockalisheen-road-project

Kramer · 26-04-2022 10:25pm

So, Eamo has unilaterally scrapped this it seems.

https://www.constructionireland.ie/construction-news/285004/northern-distributor-road-excluded-from-limerick-strategy

TL;DR, buy a bike 🤨.

spacetweek · 26-04-2022 10:32pm

Coonagh-Knock will still be completed it seems. Though that could take years as the now-bust Roadbridge were building it so I assume it'll have to be re-tendered.

marno21 · 26-04-2022 10:37pm

I have a feeling the Green Party TD in Limerick will get an absolute pasting in the next election and it's nothing less than he deserves.

Taking this out and putting in a fantasy rail network that will never be built, and if it were built would be completely impractical for most people in the city is absolute lunacy. Really is stunting the city's development and it's a shame because it's a great city with so much potential for its size.

Cookiemunster · 26-04-2022 11:06pm

The new LSMATS plan actually only has new stations on the Ennis line at Moyross and Ballysimon. It says that anything else (ie the Greens whole local rail plan) is impractible and could be looked at again sometime after 2040 if more people live along the old lines by then.

There's not a hope that Leddin keeps his seat.

FreedomOfSpeechAndChoice · 27-04-2022 6:27am

None of them Greens live in the real world.

They're holding the rest of us to ransom with their upper middle class fantasy ideas that only they could afford.

I agree with Marno; sooner they're out, the better.

hans aus dtschl · 27-04-2022 12:56pm

Is there anything to this, other than the fact that Green lizard people have an agenda to stop anything from being good again? Was a specific decision made by someone?

I didn't realise that Eamon Ryan had so much absolute power. I had innocently thought that the NTA would have had some input to LSMATS too.

The article linked reads like something I'd often read on cycle advocacy media: a "vested interest group" media report. What's the actual news about the Limerick Northern Distributor Road? And what's the news about LSMATS? The last I heard the whole thing went into the bin after the first review, essentially because it followed CMATS down the "we need moar carz" path.

Cookiemunster · 27-04-2022 1:27pm

The revised LSMATS plan was released yesterday.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/additional-rail-proposals-in-revised-limerick-shannon-transport-strategy/

hans aus dtschl · 27-04-2022 1:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118983548#Comment_118983548

Thanks!

I wonder whether there will be another draft LSMATS, after this one!

From what I've recently read of CMATS, they've now committed to making it a "living document" which is updated regularly and used as a reference point. I think that might be a better approach than lots of fighting over the first formal issue, and hoping it will be perfect. Time changes everything.

Widescreen · 27-04-2022 1:57pm

Greens have to go, the only "solution" they have is Carbon tax. I think the world has got the message now on Climate change and we all realise what needs to be done. It doesn't need a Green Party per say anymore. It just means a calm, clear government policy which encourages us and makes it possible for people to change to electric cars and get their houses properly insulated / retrofitted without massive expense and complication which seems to be the case now. They cannot expect everyone in Ireland to have any electric car, a heat pump system and retrofit done by 2030!

Do things like, make Gas Oil boilers illegal by end of a given year say, 2024 and encourage people to change to a Condenser boiler if they can't go down the Heat pump retrofit road.

Make smokey coal properly illegal and police it.

Give significant scrappage on cars over 8 years old to encourage purchase of an electric, hybrid or plug in hybrid car. All three of those help the environment.

As for these train services, that has to be a non runner. We are not moving away from cars, we are just moving to a different type of car! Therefore we need proper roads of which the Distributor road is one and is badly needed! I was disappointed to see the road to Cork made a N road instead of a motorway, crazy in this day and age.

hans aus dtschl · 27-04-2022 2:08pm

Different thread.

On the Cork road, ignore the "N". It's a motorway in all but name. They can quietly change the sign colours in a few years when the construction is complete.

hans aus dtschl · 27-04-2022 2:16pm

Finally got to the relevant section of LSMATS:

14.4.2 Limerick Northern Distributor Road

Funding provision for the development of the Limerick Northern Distributor Road (LNDR) has not been included in the Government’s National Development Plan 2021-2030. In addition, the Minister for Transport has requested the NTA not to include the LNDR in LSMATS on the basis that proceeding with the LNDR would be contrary to the NPF’s objective of compact growth, would undermine the investment planned in active travel/public transport and would accentuate and continue a dispersed, unsustainable development model in the region. Additionally, the Minster has requested that the focus of transport investment for Limerick in the coming years should be on improving active travel infrastructure, delivering BusConnects and adopting a more transport-orientated development approach through the expansion of the rail network to provide a commuter rail system that serves existing and future development.

Revised rail proposals envisioning a comprehensive commuter rail network for Limerick City and adjoining locations has been included in Chapter 11 of this strategy.

Well. That just makes a mockery of the whole LSMATS process IMO. Either rely on the NTA expertise, and the background data/documentation, or scrap the whole thing. Again IMO. This really looks like the NTA and minister are at odds. That makes no sense to me.

I happen to agree with investing in sustainable transport BEFORE building more city roads, but where's the background data justifying this?

KrisW1001 · 27-04-2022 4:11pm

Sounds like the objectives changed in mid-plan. From its route, you can see that LNDR was clearly intended to open lands to the North of Limerick up for development. That's great if your objective is only “economic growth”, but it’s pretty lousy if your objective is “compact growth”, as it will create urban sprawl that will be very, very difficult to serve with any form of mass trasportation.

Solving our housing problems in this country is intertwined with weaning ourselves off development that promotes private-car commuting (note, I said ”private-car commuting” there, not just “private car”; private cars are fine in themselves - it’s the idea of everyone using a private car for taking the same trip at the same time every morning and evening that’s stupid). Higher densities are a part of that, and this plan won’t promote higher densities.

Note that everything I just said applies only to the un-built northern section of LNDR. The south-western section from Coonagh to Knockalisheen that is under construction right now (well, was until Roadbridge went bust, but will be restarted) is a much better idea: it provides an arterial route between a neglected, high-density part of the city and the city centre, complete with cycleways and the possibility of adding segregated bus-lanes or even light-rail provision in future.

Limerick Northern Distributor Road

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