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Votes for Irish Citizens Abroad
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Painted Pony wrote: »But what is significant about citizenship?
It's significant because not only is it my national identity it is also the embodiment of my allegiance to Ireland and my wish to be part of that country's future. This is something of paramount importance to many emigrants and is the reason why most of us don't seek to take on citizenship of the countries we're in.
Also citizenship is significant in this particular discussion as that is exclusively what the franchise stems from.For example, given the nature of modern employment dynamics, many of us will find work in a constituency other our home one. We may retain an interest in it and may hope to someday return to live in it, but in the meantime our past, and possible future involvement in our home constituency, should not lead us to expect to be permitted to vote in say local, or even national elections.
I know many, many people who live in cities like Cork and Dublin who travel to their home constituencies in order to vote. Similarly I don't think it fair to compare explicitly local campaigns etc with the wish to have a say on the future of your own country.0 -
Irish citizens are expressly permitted to vote in all UK elections once they have established residency in the UK (I think at the latest 5 years after settling there, but can be sooner). Similar applies in reverse but excludes right to vote in presidential elections.
Point in case: I applied for, and was granted, a vote in the last British general election (2010) having only been living there for for less than 2 months.
As far as i know british subjects who are residents in Ireland can vote in our general elections but not in our presidential elections or referenda.0 -
There is no requirement to establish residency.Irish citizens are expressly permitted to vote in all UK elections once they have established residency in the UK (I think at the latest 5 years after settling there, but can be sooner). Similar applies in reverse but excludes right to vote in presidential elections.0 -
Irish people don’t seek US citizenship?It's significant because not only is it my national identity it is also the embodiment of my allegiance to Ireland and my wish to be part of that country's future. This is something of paramount importance to many emigrants and is the reason why most of us don't seek to take on citizenship of the countries we're in.
Might they be students?I know many, many people who live in cities like Cork and Dublin who travel to their home constituencies in order to vote.0 -
I'm Irish and live abroad. I strongly believe that I should NOT have the right to vote in general elections, local elections, European elections or referenda. I think maybe an allowance to vote in Presidential elections could be acceptable but I'm not even sure about that.
Basically it comes down to the fact that you shouldn't have the right to vote if you are not represented by the outcome of the vote.0 -
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There most certainly are special agreements between the UK & Ireland wrt. voting rights for each others citizens in the other country. It has nothing to do with grandfather rights etc.
Irish citizens are expressly permitted to vote in all UK elections once they have established residency in the UK (I think at the latest 5 years after settling there, but can be sooner). Similar applies in reverse but excludes right to vote in presidential elections.
Irish citizens living in the UK had voting rights for decades before Ireland - unilaterally - decided to give such rights to UK citizens living in Ireland. The UK did not request that Ireland do this at the time and never expressed the slightest interest in us having done so.0 -
Irish people don’t seek US citizenship?
Might they be students?
No, don't many of them these days due to my old age. Both my aunt and uncle remain registered in Waterford despite living away from that constituency for over 20 years. Many people I knew in Cork City would return to Kerry, rural Cork etc to vote in their village or town of origin.Irish people don’t seek US citizenship?
Most of them there don't. If you weren't automatically granted the franchise here now would you apply for British citizenship in order to get it? I know bucket loads of Irish people in Australia and Canada and while most of them are trying to get residency I know very few who have expressed interest in getting the passport.0 -
Ignoring for a moment that this constitutes fraud, it illustrates everything that's wrong with democracy in Ireland - local trumps national in general elections. Exporting that mentality strikes me as a really bad idea.No, don't many of them these days due to my old age. Both my aunt and uncle remain registered in Waterford despite living away from that constituency for over 20 years. Many people I knew in Cork City would return to Kerry, rural Cork etc to vote in their village or town of origin.
But that's the point - it's all about necessity. Irish people in the UK don't apply for British citizenship because they don't need to. I know plenty of Irish people who have US passports (for example) because they felt it was necessary to get one.Most of them there don't. If you weren't automatically granted the franchise here now would you apply for British citizenship in order to get it? I know bucket loads of Irish people in Australia and Canada and while most of them are trying to get residency I know very few who have expressed interest in getting the passport.0 -
I tried to look up the number of Irish citizens living abroad and came up with different figures, but the best estimates seem to indicate 3 million. Given that the potential electorate that people are proposing in this thread would vastly exceed the electorate resident in the country, we therefore cannot compare ourselves with other countries such as Holland as someone mentioned earlier.
The fact is that in a parlimentary democracy based on constituencies (assuming non-residents citizens would have their own constituency) , should we grant the vote to all Irish citizens then the number of TDs elected by non-residents would exceed the number elected by residents.
I have to ask would anyone really be comfortable living in a country where the government was selected by people who do not live here?0 -
I tried to look up the number of Irish citizens living abroad and came up with different figures, but the best estimates seem to indicate 3 million. Given that the potential electorate that people are proposing in this thread would vastly exceed the electorate resident in the country, we therefore cannot compare ourselves with other countries such as Holland as someone mentioned earlier.
The fact is that in a parlimentary democracy based on constituencies (assuming non-residents citizens would have their own constituency) , should we grant the vote to all Irish citizens then the number of TDs elected by non-residents would exceed the number elected by residents.
I have to ask would anyone really be comfortable living in a country where the government was selected by people who do not live here?
Well I can largely agree with that I'd have to say it is a double-edged sword as Irish citizens abroad might actually elect better people since they might focus on policies not potholes.
Likewise recent immigrants might vote the same way as they probably don't understand that voting for Joe rather than Pat - from the same party and who will both follow the same party whip - is the be-all and end-all of most voters' political decision making.0 -
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Well I can largely agree with that I'd have to say it is a double-edged sword as Irish citizens abroad might actually elect better people since they might focus on policies not potholes.
Likewise recent immigrants might vote the same way as they probably don't understand that voting for Joe rather than Pat - from the same party and who will both follow the same party whip - is the be-all and end-all of most voters' political decision making.
That could well be true but you could equally argue that a majority electorate based abroad could eventually realise the position of power that they have and form a party of their which could deliberately funnel all tax receipts away from the preverbale pothole into emigrant support policies.
Also not included in the figure of 3 million are the potential 1 million Unionists who are entitled to Irish citizenship and certainly have not taken it up yet. I really could not see them pass up the opertunity of getting 10% to 15% representation in the Dail. If you add it all up the figures would show an electorate of about 6.75 million with about 1/3 actually living in Ireland.0 -
Well those kind of lofty sentiments are good and well but the reality of course is that election issues are usually about more bread and butter matters such health, education, welfare etc.It's significant because not only is it my national identity it is also the embodiment of my allegiance to Ireland and my wish to be part of that country's future. This is something of paramount importance to many emigrants and is the reason why most of us don't seek to take on citizenship of the countries we're in.
And it makes no sense to some of us that we would change our system so that those who are directly affected by these issues would be a minority of the electorate!
But surely exposes an anomaly? A Pole may be part of Irish society, contributing to the Irish economy, educating their children in Irish schools etc. and have no (automatic) right to a say. But someone else who is a citizen, and who has no intension of returning to Ireland, or indeed may never have set foot in Ireland, does?Also citizenship is significant in this particular discussion as that is exclusively what the franchise stems from.
Assuming they vote in the constituency in which they reside (and I think they should) then they can not also vote in their home one. And no one makes the argument that because they retain an interest in their constituency and want to be a part of its future, which they may well do, that they should retain their vote. When they are actually part of their constituency again, they can regain their franchise.I know many, many people who live in cities like Cork and Dublin who travel to their home constituencies in order to vote. Similarly I don't think it fair to compare explicitly local campaigns etc with the wish to have a say on the future of your own country.
Why should it be any different with ex-pats?0 -
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Also not included in the figure of 3 million are the potential 1 million Unionists who are entitled to Irish citizenship and certainly have not taken it up yet. I really could not see them pass up the opertunity of getting 10% to 15% representation in the Dail.
Whatever about anyone else I doubt there would be much uptake by Unionists.
It would be akin to giving everyone here votes in the Spanish election - we aren't interested in being Spanish and have limited reason to concern ourselves with Spain's politics so why would we vote?0 -
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Irish citizens are expressly permitted to vote in all UK elections once they have established residency in the UK (I think at the latest 5 years after settling there, but can be sooner).
I'll tell you how soon, I moved to London during the summer of 1996 and I was quite amazed to learn, that I was entitled to vote in the May 1997 general Election. I fully support the right of the Irish diaspora to vote. Tens of thousand have been forced from this little island in recent years, through no choice of their own. Thanks to the incompetence & acquiescence of consecutive bleating governments. I'll leave it there, but you can be absolute certain nothing will change. The politically spineless denizens of Dáil Eireann, know all to well what their faith would be if such voting rights were extended.0 -
Whatever about anyone else I doubt there would be much uptake by Unionists.
It would be akin to giving everyone here votes in the Spanish election - we aren't interested in being Spanish and have limited reason to concern ourselves with Spain's politics so why would we vote?
I think you missed the point, we have no interest in Spainish politics because they have no impact on us.
Unionists have plenty of interest in Irish Politics, because they view us as a threat (rightly or wrongly) to their identity and culture, and I doubt very much if they would ignore the chance to take seats in the Dail with a view to blocking any movements (real or imagined) towards re-unifying the Island.0 -
I think you missed the point, we have no interest in Spainish politics because they have no impact on us.
And equally we have little to no impact on the average Unionist (probably less than Spain has on us as a result of inter-Eurozone politics).Unionists have plenty of interest in Irish Politics, because they view us as a threat (rightly or wrongly) to their identity and culture, and I doubt very much if they would ignore the chance to take seats in the Dail with a view to blocking any movements (real or imagined) towards re-unifying the Island.
I am sure some Unionists view us as a threat, most don't though and are focused on domestic (UK) politics as we are - at best - like a rain cloud on the distant horizon: not something to worry about too much although you might keep an eye on it just in case.0 -
For goodness sake, give it a rest. Plenty of us chose to leave. Some may have had little choice, but most did.Corvus Maximus wrote: »Tens of thousand have been forced from this little island in recent years, through no choice of their own.0 -
Painted Pony wrote: »Well those kind of lofty sentiments are good and well but the reality of course is that election issues are usually about more bread and butter matters such health, education, welfare etc.
It isn't lofty and sentimental, it's plain reality. A citizen's franchise is derived from their citizenship alone. You might think the notion of a national identity or citizenship is a load of watery b*llocks, but it's a very real issue for many people and is especially potent for many emigrants who find themselves immediately disenfranchised the minute they leave Ireland. This despite the fact that most people leaving at the moment are forced to do so in order to find work elsewhere with a large proportion of them sending home remittances as opposed to hanging around at home drawing the dole. Most emigrants also have a project of return and many will buy property in Ireland.And it makes no sense to some of us that we would change our system so that those who are directly affected by these issues would be a minority of the electorate!
The notion that Irish elections would be "swamped" by votes coming from abroad is scare-mongering nonsense that hasn't transpired in any of the 115 countries that uphold the rights of their citizens to vote from abroad. As has been pointed out on another thread, Lithuania has a massive emigrant population that are permitted the vote and the sky hasn't fallen down over there. The above notion is largely a red herring anyway considering you could set up a constituency geared toward the diaspora which is what they do in France.But surely exposes an anomaly? A Pole may be part of Irish society, contributing to the Irish economy, educating their children in Irish schools etc. and have no (automatic) right to a say. But someone else who is a citizen, and who has no intension of returning to Ireland, or indeed may never have set foot in Ireland, does?
It isn't an anomaly, the only thing outside the norm in this debate is the state's flat refusal to allow its citizens to exercise their right to a vote which is facilitated in nearly every other democracy. The thousands of Poles in Ireland, on the other hand, are perfectly entitled to vote in their own country as well as vote in local and European elections in Ireland. If anything the fact that foreign nationals aren't allowed to vote in Ireland despite paying tax simply highlights the other erroneous notion that voting is in any way connected with taxation. (The "no representation without taxation" red herring that people like to bring up.)Why should it be any different with ex-pats?
Because it's fallacious to connect an emigrant's desire to have a say in his own country with issues that are parochial in nature. Where an Irish citizen decides to vote in Ireland itself is irrelevant to the discussion to be honest.0 -
Painted Pony wrote: »The notion that Irish elections would be "swamped" by votes coming from abroad is scare-mongering nonsense that hasn't transpired in any of the 115 countries that uphold the rights of their citizens to vote from abroad. As has been pointed out on another thread, Lithuania has a massive emigrant population that are permitted the vote and the sky hasn't fallen down over there. The above notion is largely a red herring anyway considering you could set up a constituency geared toward the diaspora which is what they do in France.
I am afraid it is not "scaremongering nonsense", it is a simple plain and demonstrable fact that the citizenship of Ireland abroad exceeds the electorate at home.
The only legal way to franchise the electorate abroad is based on the population figures in the same way that constituencies in Ireland have numbers of seats allocated based the census figures, if you do not do this then you will have a situation where one vote is worth less then another.
Analogies with Lithuania (or any other country in the world, with the possible exception of Lesotho) are just false, Lithuania has NOTHING like the level of citizens living abroad. They have a large 20 year emigration history, our history of emigration is an even larger proportion of the population over a 160 year period, and they certainly do not have anything even approaching 30% of their electorate abroad.
We on the other hand have 3 million citizens living abroad. The last Dail election had 2,220,000 voters of a registered electorate of 3,000,000.
Put simply, there is NO legal or logisitic method of franchising our citizens abroad without allocating 50% + of the Dail seats to them unless you introduce a mechanism which restricts the value of their vote.0 -
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It isn't lofty and sentimental, it's plain reality.
Governments are an administrative feature- that's the realityThe notion that Irish elections would be "swamped" by votes coming from abroad is scare-mongering nonsense
Legitimate concerns are not scaremongering.
Indeed your suggestion 're France's system is not obviously mentioned elsewhereIt isn't an anomaly, the only thing outside the norm in this debate is the state's flat refusal to allow its citizens to exercise their right to a vote which is facilitated in nearly every other democracy.
You should argue for it based on its own merits rather than saying that everyone else does itIf anything the fact that foreign nationals aren't allowed to vote in Ireland despite paying tax simply highlights the other erroneous notion that voting is in any way connected with taxation. (The "no representation without taxation" red herring that people like to bring up)
You have mentioned tax as much if not more often than anyone else on this thread!0 -
I am afraid it is not "scaremongering nonsense", it is a simple plain and demonstrable fact that the citizenship of Ireland abroad exceeds the electorate at home.
I'm afraid the notion that Irish elections will be swamped with 3 million odd votes from abroad is complete nonsense.
1) Votes for Irish Citizens Abroad is calling for the vote only for those who emigrated from Ireland. A fella in Detroit isn't going to get the vote because his granny was from Clare.
2) VICA isn't concerning itself with the North of Ireland as that's a different political issue and if their submission to the Convention is accepted then you won't have a million northerners voting in general elections.
3) Voter turnout in emigrant populations is generally very low.
4) All of the above can be circumvented by the creation of constituencies specially designed for emigrants which is the situation in France and Italy.
All of the above will mean that emigrants exercising their franchise won't cause the sky to fall in.Analogies with Lithuania (or any other country in the world, with the possible exception of Lesotho) are just false, Lithuania has NOTHING like the level of citizens living abroad.
It has a substantial diaspora of close to a million people abroad, a similar number to ourselves.Put simply, there is NO legal or logisitic method of franchising our citizens abroad without allocating 50% + of the Dail seats to them unless you introduce a mechanism which restricts the value of their vote.
But yet countries like France, Italy and 113 others including most other European democracies can?0 -
Governments are an administrative feature- that's the reality
The concept of having a say in what shape your country takes is something more than an administrative feature. Historically Irish people abroad have been denied this and neglected in general. (Bar the money they sent home, that was always welcome though.)Legitimate concerns are not scaremongering.
Indeed your suggestion 're France's system is not obviously mentioned elsewhere
It's mentioned for consideration by VICA in the link in my first post.You should argue for it based on its own merits rather than saying that everyone else does it
I have put forward umpteen reasons why they should have it. The primary one is of course, that it is their simple right as citizens. Bringing up the fact every other country does it is useful in showing just how out of step and backwards the Irish state is on this particular issue. It's also useful in counteracting the apocalyptic notions put forward by some who say it is unworkable.You have mentioned tax as much if not more often than anyone else on this thread!
Because when this issue is raised taxation is often the first argument brought up in opposition to it. This debate is ongoing in places outside of this particular thread.0 -
Isn't that creating tiers of citizenship? X can vote because she's an Irish citizen living abroad who happens to have lived in Ireland at some point, but Y can't because he's an Irish citizen living abroad who hasn't. It's basically saying that X is a real citizen, but Y isn't.Votes for Irish Citizens Abroad is calling for the vote only for those who emigrated from Ireland. A fella in Detroit isn't going to get the vote because his granny was from Clare.0 -
Isn't that creating tiers of citizenship? X can vote because she's an Irish citizen living abroad who happens to have lived in Ireland at some point, but Y can't because he's an Irish citizen living abroad who hasn't. It's basically saying that X is a real citizen, but Y isn't.
It's addressing the fact that Irish emigrants are disenfranchised from their country of origin, something that can't be said for the likes of the London Irish etc considering they aren't disenfranchised in any way. Likewise the second-generation rarely have a project of return or have much of an investment in Ireland itself. Similarly a "tier" exists already whereby emigrants are disenfranchised upon their departure while still being enticed by the state to make a massive contribution to the fortunes of Ireland.0 -
I'm afraid the notion that Irish elections will be swamped with 3 million odd votes from abroad is complete nonsense.
1) Votes for Irish Citizens Abroad is calling for the vote only for those who emigrated from Ireland. A fella in Detroit isn't going to get the vote because his granny was from Clare.
2) VICA isn't concerning itself with the North of Ireland as that's a different political issue and if their submission to the Convention is accepted then you won't have a million northerners voting in general elections.
3) Voter turnout in emigrant populations is generally very low.
4) All of the above can be circumvented by the creation of constituencies specially designed for emigrants which is the situation in France and Italy.
All of the above will mean that emigrants exercising their franchise won't cause the sky to fall in.
It has a substantial diaspora of close to a million people abroad, a similar number to ourselves.
But yet countries like France, Italy and 113 others including most other European democracies can?
Lithuania diaspora of 1 million, population 3.2 million = 30% as I said. Thank you for backing up my figures. I
Irish citizens abroad 3 million abroad, Irish voters in last election 2.2 million. Please explain to me how this is similar to Lithuania, it is not even close to similar, you are wrong in this assertion by a multiple of 300%.
Elections and distribution of seats in this or any other constituency based democracy have never been based on the number of people who exercise their vote, they have always been based on the electorate population. You or anyone else have no way of predicting how many people would exercise a legal franchise to vote. What you are suggesting is that we allocate seats on an arbiturary guess of how many people will vote.
France does not have 65 million citizens abroad, Italy does not have 60 million citizens abroad. Show me one of the 113 countries who have more then 50% of their citizens abroad.
None of the above can be circumvented by the creation of a constituency for foreign based voters because that constituency would legally require 90 of the 166 based on the electorate size.
You cannot continue to argue that the number of people who take up the vote determines the size of the representation because is simply not the case.0 -
Did you even read my post? Honestly like?Irish citizens abroad 3 million abroad
VICA's submission to the Constitutional Convention 1) limits the franchise to those who emigrated from Ireland and 2) doesn't concern itself with northern citizens as it's a separate political issue. Thus, your notion of 3m abroad getting the vote is indeed nonsense. Nobody is calling for that. And if you had read the original post or my post above, you'd see that.You or anyone else have no way of predicting how many people would exercise a legal franchise to vote. What you are suggesting is that we allocate seats on an arbiturary guess of how many people will vote.
It is highly unlikely that we would considering voter turnout amongst every other emigrant population is low. As I said in my post above (which you obviously didn't read) this problem could be avoided entirely if you simply created representative constituencies on a continental basis in the same way that France or Italy does. While this would involve rejigging the constitution to make an exemption for a couple of constituencies, it is very much doable and a very practical solution to the notion of "swamping."0 -
Did you even read my post? Honestly like?
VICA's submission to the Constitutional Convention 1) limits the franchise to those who emigrated from Ireland and 2) doesn't concern itself with northern citizens as it's a separate political issue. Thus, your notion of 3m abroad getting the vote is indeed nonsense. Nobody is calling for that. And if you had read the original post or my post above, you'd see that.
It is highly unlikely that we would considering voter turnout amongst every other emigrant population is low. As I said in my post above (which you obviously didn't read) this problem could be avoided entirely if you simply created representative constituencies on a continental basis in the same way that France or Italy does. While this would involve rejigging the constitution to make an exemption for a couple of constituencies, it is very much doable and a very practical solution to the notion of "swamping."
So, you would first of all have to be an emigrant during your own life (even if you emigrated at six months old?) but also if you lived in Northern Ireland, you would lose your vote. Have I got the proposal right?0 -
So, you would first of all have to be an emigrant during your own life (even if you emigrated at six months old?) but also if you lived in Northern Ireland, you would lose your vote. Have I got the proposal right?
You don't have a vote if you're a northern citizen as it is. VICA have decided to abstain from campaigning on that particular issue (for obvious reasons), which is fair enough because they're concerned with emigrants and not the border issue.
They also want the franchise extended to Irish emigrants, not those abroad with an Irish cultural identity. There is a difference.0 -
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You don't have a vote if you're a northern citizen as it is. VICA have decided to abstain from campaigning on that particular issue (for obvious reasons), which is fair enough because they're concerned with emigrants and not the border issue.
They also want the franchise extended to Irish emigrants, not those abroad with an Irish cultural identity. There is a difference.
Yes, but if you emigrate to the UK i.e Belfast, surely you are as entitled to an emigrant vote as anyone else?0
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