Thought on the Navan Railway and the M3

MDTyKe · 27-08-2007 5:11pm #1

Just a thought on the Navan Railway..

I understand there are 2 NDP / Transport 21 projects; one being the M3, the other being the Navan Commuter Rail. Why, though, is the rail not going alongside the motorway? I mean, the land will be flat already; surely it wouldn't be much more to stick a few train tracks down each side of the motorway. I know it sort of hinders future development, but only put it on one side then - and you can expand in the other direction?

Wouldn't this be a bit easier, and uh.. quicker?

Matt

lostexpectation · 27-08-2007 5:28pm

MDTyKe wrote:

Just a thought on the Navan Railway..

I understand there are 2 NDP / Transport 21 projects; one being the M3, the other being the Navan Commuter Rail. Why, though, is the rail not going alongside the motorway? I mean, the land will be flat already; surely it wouldn't be much more to stick a few train tracks down each side of the motorway. I know it sort of hinders future development, but only put it on one side then - and you can expand in the other direction?

Wouldn't this be a bit easier, and uh.. quicker?

Matt

well i don't know somebody had already suggested the opposite put the motorway beside the old train tracks called it 'multiway' search it.

Xyndrix · 27-08-2007 6:23pm

Yeah, it really should have been the other way round. The motorway should have followed the old rail alignment through the Skane valley. It's much shorter and it would also have benefited Trim while avoiding ploughing through the exceptionally rich archaeological landscape of the Tara-Skryne valley. However by instead taking a longer route and needlessly crossing over the existing N3, they could then cross back again, thus allowing them to add an extra interchange to the project. And that's what it's all about: stringing an extra interchange onto the motorway matters much more than achieving the shortest possible, most cost-effective route. The M3 is all about opening up land for development.

I'm sure those who stand to benefit from the route of the M3 wouldn't mind seeing the railway come their way also. The fact that it would be longer than the old route wouldn't bother them I'm sure, and it probably wouldn't bother Meath County Council or the government much either.

Navan Junction · 27-08-2007 7:38pm

Gradients would be a problem for a start.. Too late for that at this stage as you would have to re-engineer the M3, and the old alignment was of a very high quality anyway - you couldn't improve on it for the purpose it would be needed - apart from proximity to Dunshaughlin. In fact there is only a handful of bridges missing / needing to be replaced.

Re Multiway, iirc Brian Guckian's proposal was to have the existing N3 upgraded to 2+1, and to have a railway rebuilt with a deviation on a virgin alignment (by itself, without a road) to Ashbourne. The idea there was that the road and railway would still be two seperate projects.

No plan has been put together to deviate the M3 west, though it has been suggested many times. Not least because Trim could have been connected to M3, and the Navan to Dunshaughlin section of the M3 could have been combined for a 5 mile section with the proposed M52 (outer orbital route's loacl nick-name) section that would run from Navan to Trim.

Commonsense has never been a factor in any of this.

Navan Junction · 03-09-2007 8:23pm

The Multiway proposal has changed in name to 'Meath Master Plan' - there was a press conference on the 29th segments of which are at the below link on a u-tube type website.

The relevant bit is about 8 minutes in - the main difference to the Multiway version seems to be the abandonment of the Ashbourne railway deviation and the M3 to be built as far as Dunshaughlin.

Apart from that, it seems to be the same as the 'Meath Multiway' proposal of a few years back.

http://www.livevideo.com/video/7BE4B2663F574FAF92F233240F8567F4/the-meath-master-plan-press-.aspx

Carawaystick · 03-09-2007 9:41pm

I heard your minister for navan rail saying "people should use public transport. I don't; mumble security concerns mumble" on radio news at lunchtime today.

Unless the ministerial merc can go on the train, the M3 will be built.

Navan Junction · 03-09-2007 10:09pm

Carawaystick wrote:

I heard your minister for navan rail saying "people should use public transport. I don't; mumble security concerns mumble" on radio news at lunchtime today.

Unless the ministerial merc can go on the train, the M3 will be built.

Missed that..:D

Anyway, he lives in Trim so I can't see him using the train. Which also means the M3 is of no use to him either.

As the last site which could potentially have halted construction is being excavated, it would seem that current route is going to be the route.

There was a piece in the Irish Times which quoted someone in the EU saying that any issues the Commision would have with the EIS(s) are at a very early stage, so most likely won't impact on construction.

I haven't a clue about the implications of the new court challenge though - I'd imagine it will be heard at an early stage.

Either way, even Dempsey is saying road and rail (whether you believe him on the rail element is a different issue) - in essence the difference between T21 and Brian Guckian's Meath Master Plan is where the M3 will finish.

However, it all appears to be exercise in academics at this stage. Whilst many people up here wanted a different route for the M3, they still wanted an M3.

Even at this stage many commuters would be happy if the M3 was rerouted - there wouldn't be a much applaus from those same commuters if it were downgraded to a 2+1, even if the railway is fast-tracked.

As things stand, the appetite is there for both. Whether Meath gets both is a different thing entirely

lostexpectation · 04-09-2007 8:50am

so what the progress on navan rail now

Navan Junction · 04-09-2007 12:58pm

None. Word is that the Scoping Study was completed before the summer, but it hasn't been released yet.

Xyndrix · 04-09-2007 2:56pm

There was a report on LMFM news this morning about the railway order for the Clonsilla-Pace section. I just caught the end of it and they said the Scoping Study for the section to Navan is now due for release in October. Kinda weird if they completed it before the summer and then just left it for a couple of months. I know the election might have had something to do with it, but it was originally due for release in July, wasn't it? It seems they want to drag this out as long as they can. No guarantees it will even be out in October. We'll probably see a lot more detail on the Outer Orbital Route before anything tangible emerges on the railway.

EDIT: Here's the report on Michael Reade's site

http://www.loosetalkmichael.com/lmfm_news

This link is only valid for today. There's a transcript on the page as well.

First phase of Dublin Navan rail line moves forward

The first phase of the Dublin Navan rail line has moved a further step forward. Iarnrod Eireann is to lodge a railway order for the section from Clonsilla to Dunboyne with an Bord Pleanala this Friday. Meath County Council has completed its consultation as part of the pre-application process, which has been carried out over the past 6 weeks. A report of the scoping study for Phase 2 from Dunboyne to Navan is being undertaken by consultants and is expected to be completed by October.

fitzyshea · 04-09-2007 5:25pm

Link from IE website
http://www.irishrail.ie/news_centre/news.asp?action=view&news_id=290

Prof_V · 04-09-2007 7:14pm

Xyndrix wrote:

There was a report on LMFM news this morning about the railway order for the Clonsilla-Pace section. I just caught the end of it and they said the Scoping Study for the section to Navan is now due for release in October. Kinda weird if they completed it before the summer and then just left it for a couple of months. I know the election might have had something to do with it, but it was originally due for release in July, wasn't it?

It isn't all that unusual - though not necessarily defensible - for studies like this to sit around for a couple of months after they're completed. I suspect the council officials (it's a joint county council/IÉ undertaking, isn't it?) will sit on it for a while before giving it to the councillors, who'll then set a date for releasing it to the public. It could well be that it was finished in July after all...

Xyndrix · 04-09-2007 9:08pm

Ok. I suppose the whole thing just seemed a bit weird to me anyway. The study in itself isn't sufficient to proceed to railway order stage so its actual benefit is questionable anyway. The consultants involved seemed more concerned with creating the impression that the line could go absolutely anywhere and wasn't constrained by anything (gradients didn't matter, the impact of the M3 didn't matter) than making real progress on delivering the line. Add to that their total lack of interest in the old alignment despite previous studies strongly recommending it and the fact they stated there would be further public consultation and presentation of different route options which subsequently never transpired. The whole thing seemed a bit odd anyway. Completing it before the summer and then letting it hang around for months just fits in with the general overall weirdness about the whole thing.

Navan Junction · 04-09-2007 9:36pm

Not really. There was no Minister for Transport or even a formed Government after the May election. Then you had the summer holidays in the Dáil.

This is about politics. No politicians and no school runs - better to wait until the Sept-Christmas gridlock to maximise PR for the politicians

vibe666 · 04-09-2007 9:47pm

i've seen it in australia. the major motorways sometimes have the carriageways further apart with commuter trains through the centre. semed like a good idea when i saw them.

the first thing that should have been done on the N3 should have been to scrap the bus lane at the end of the dual carriageway and just made it 2 lanes going north until fairyhouse. there's plenty of room for the extra lane there using the verges where appropriate obth sides.

since a large % of the traffic leaves the N3 via the junctions leading up to and inc. fairyhouse it would have helped with a lot of the congestion.

all the work that was done to put that bus lane in was pretty much pointless if the taffic is backed up so far that the buses can't get to it anyway.

Navan Junction · 04-09-2007 10:19pm

Well, the Chronicle had a huge amount about the M3 last week - stated that the Dunboyne bypass section would be built and opened first.

However, it has to be to facilitate the station at Pace - the site is covered in spoil, mounds of rubble etc etc at the moment.

Interesting thing is that the IÉ website states 1,200 space P&R. That was the original proposition, but part of it would have been on the Tolka floodplain.

At the Public Consultation a few months ago the P&R was move, and reduced to 400 spaces.

Now it is stated as 1,200 - it could be on the cards for the flood plain again. Which could cause surprise to commuters returning to their cars in years to come, unless they prevent it from flooding.

Just have to wait and see

Xyndrix · 04-09-2007 11:50pm

Navan Junction wrote:

Not really. There was no Minister for Transport or even a formed Government after the May election. Then you had the summer holidays in the Dáil.

This is about politics. No politicians and no school runs - better to wait until the Sept-Christmas gridlock to maximise PR for the politicians

Ah, I see. That does seem like quite a plausible explanation for the delay alright. NJ, Would you be more optimistic now that this study will actually advance the project? or is it still not up to much considering there's no proper cost-benefit analysis for a railway order etc?

One would think with Dempsey now in Transport the rail line to Navan had a real chance of becoming a reality but I get the impression his focus is more on delivering yet another motorway to Meath in the form of this Outer Orbital Route. You could easily see the rail line slipping down the list of priorities when something like that is given such prominence despite it not being in the NDP or Transport 21.

spacetweek · 05-09-2007 1:27pm

fitzyshea wrote:

Link from IE website
http://www.irishrail.ie/news_centre/news.asp?action=view&news_id=290

According to that the bloody thing is late, now it's not commencing until the end of 2008 and finishing in 2010. Why oh why are they do determined not to build this?

Navan Junction · 05-09-2007 2:19pm

Xyndrix wrote:

Would you be more optimistic now that this study will actually advance the project? or is it still not up to much considering there's no proper cost-benefit analysis for a railway order etc?

The whole thing seems to be like peeling an onion - you have to keep removing the layers, getting rid of the obstacles.

The 'Scoping Study' won't deliver the railway. But it will idetify a route (which will still have to confirmed through the planning process).

And though the CBA may not be to the extent we'd like, if it's positive it will be hard to row back from politically. I can't see a negative one being unvieled in the midst of Autumn gridlock.

From the Scoping Study there will a route and an offical estimation that it is viable - two less major hoops to jump through, even if it will all be gone over again in the planning process.

The Scoping Study trick got the Government through the 2007 election - work of some sorts will have to have started before the next election say in 2012.

However, five years is a long time and a lot can happen. It's a waiting game from here to when it is announced. Once delivery of the line isn't tied to delivery of the Interconnector, it is something to be positive about.

Winters · 05-09-2007 3:18pm

Dont you get the feeling with these types of projects that the Government, Department of Transport, Local Authority and the respective state body are only doing these projects because of public pressure rather than actually being progressive? In light of the logic of connecting Navan and Dublin by rail or Midleton and Cork (Remember it was an external consultant that recommended the reopening of the Midleton Rail line in CASP) I cant help but think that in any other modern european state that it would have been completed by now.

DerekP11 · 05-09-2007 4:05pm

A proper Government wouldn't have stood idley by while CCs furtively rezoned land for housing, all with the absence of any kind of transport plan.

While Dublin held onto huge tracts of land (many of which are the subjects of tribunals) CCs in Meath, Kildare, Laois, Westmeath, Wicklow, Louth etc. etc. (Yawn), greenlit many legolands.

Navan is just another victom.

It was an assumption that everyone would drive and it would all be okay.

It isn't though. Is it?

Carawaystick · 05-09-2007 7:21pm

Laytown and Bettystown have a train line and aren't the most succesfully planned place(s) either.

lostexpectation · 05-09-2007 11:25pm

Navan Junction wrote:

None. Word is that the Scoping Study was completed before the summer, but it hasn't been released yet.

but
http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/dunboyne_commuter_rail.asp ?

and i thought I read aon another page that I can't find right now that IARN were clearing it and workers were on it right now?

Xyndrix · 06-09-2007 1:46pm

I don't know about anyone else, but when I hear about the 'Navan line' now, I really just think about the line from Pace to Navan. No matter what work occurs on the Clonsilla-Pace section, it's no guarantee that it will ever reach Navan. While the Clonsilla-Pace line is pretty much a dead cert (although it could of course be delayed).

Navan Junction · 06-09-2007 6:16pm

lostexpectation wrote:

but
http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/dunboyne_commuter_rail.asp ?

and i thought I read aon another page that I can't find right now that IARN were clearing it and workers were on it right now?

They did clear it - as far as Pace.. No construction work. Only 4.7miles.

dodgyme · 07-09-2007 11:56am

Iarnród Éireann is applying to An Bord Pleanála for a Railway Order (the equivalent of planning permission for new rail schemes). This application is being submitted on 7th September 2007 according to the web site.

When will this be approved and work started????

Victor · 07-09-2007 10:02pm

Xyndrix wrote:

The consultants involved seemed more concerned with creating the impression that the line could go absolutely anywhere

That would be the councillors in Ratoath, etc. speaking.

Navan Junction · 08-09-2007 9:02am

Meath Chronicle, 08/09/2007

THE countdown to passenger rail services from Dublin to Dunboyne began in earnest this week as Iarnród Eireann formally applied to An Bord Pleanala for a Railway Order for the 7.5 kilometre line.
The application means Meath`s commuters will see trains arriving at a major new park and ride station on the M3 and in Dunboyne itself by 2010.
Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey joined with CIÉ and Iarnród Éireann chairman, Dr John Lynchc yesterday (Tuesday) to announce Iarnród Éireann`s formal application for the Railway Order, which is the equivalent of planning permission for new railway schemes.
The proposal is to provide a 7.5 kilometre line from Clonsilla (on the existing Dublin-Maynooth commuter line) to the M3 interchange at Pace, north of Dunboyne.
Minister Dempsey said he was also committed to getting the Navan rail line in place as a matter of urgency.
"Many of the thousands of commuters who make the journey each day from Meath to Dublin are looking for real alternatives to taking their cars to work. Providing top-class public transport facilities, such as the Navan rail line, is an integral part of the Government`s Transport 21 investment strategy."
"We want to give people back some of their valuable time by cutting commuting times and making necessary travel time a much more pleasant experience. I am certain that the Navan rail line will be a popular service and that it will make a significant impact on traffic congestion in County Meath," he said.
The project will include a station at Dunboyne with car parking for up to 400 vehicles and a major park and ride station at the M3 interchange at Pace, north of Dunboyne, with car parking for up to 1,200 vehicles, making it the largest dedicated public transport park and ride facility in the country. Both stations will be wheelchair accessible.
There is also provision for a future station at the planned Strategic Development Zone (SDZ) of Hansfield in west Dublin, which will be developed in tandem with other infrastructure and housing developments in the area.
The Railway Order will also cover signalling and other infrastructure work along the route, including bridge, boundary and drainage works as well as property acquisition along the route.
The plans represent the first phase of the reopening of the Navan rail line under the government`s `Transport 21` investment programme.
According to Iarnrod Eireann, there will be a journey time of 30 minutes from Dunboyne to the city, with services every 15 minutes at peak times, subject to developing demand.
The trains will consist of high-capacity commuter rail carriages with capacity for up to 1,200 commuters per train, or 4,800 commuters per hour at peak times, and the scheme design will allow for future upgrading to DART service.
It is proposed that construction will commence in late 2008, to ensure the line reopens in 2010.
Minister of State Mary Wallace welcomed the announcement and said that the Government was acutely aware of the pressures commuters face. "Investment in transport infrastructure is a top priority for the people of Meath. Communities in Dunboyne and the surrounding areas in Meath will be beneficiaries under the government`s €34 billon transport plan," she said.
The chairman of Meath County Council, Colr Nick Killian, said the people of Meath needed and deserved a transport network that would help create jobs and sustain communities and that is what the Transport 21 programme was doing with the rail link to Dunboyne, and then on to Navan.
Colr Noel Leonard said that the Railway Order application was a key phase in the process and was great news for Dunboyne and environs, which had not been served by rail since 1947 when the station in Dunboyne closed. The Clonsilla to Navan line was closed in 1963.
News that the Railway Order for the Clonsilla to Pace (Dunboyne) phase of the rail link was warmly welcomed at Monday`s Meath County Council meeting.
Director of Services/Community and Enterprise section, Michael Killeen, reported to members that Iarnrod Eireann had indicated it would lodge the order this Friday.
Meath County Council had fulfilled its obligation in respect of consultation on the project over the last five to six weeks, said Mr Killeen.
On the Scoping Study for phase two, Pace to Navan, Mr Killeen said consultants Roughan O`Donovan and Faber Maunsell were undertaking this under the guidance of a steering committee of Meath County Council and Iarnrod Eireann officials. The programme for delivery of the study report and its findings was the end of July. However, this date had been revised to October due to additional time requirements.
This is to "fully explore issues raised during the public consultation process" including route alignment alternatives. It also took account of the August holiday period.
A spokesperson for Iarnród Éireann said they were delighted to be commencing this key phase. "We have undertaken an extensive public consultation process with residents, landowners, statutory bodies and other interested parties, and there is very strong support for this project. We would encourage all who are interested in the development of the line to study the plans under the Railway Order application, and to avail of the opportunity to submit to An Bord Pleanála on any aspects of the plans which are of interest to them," he said.
Under the Railway Order, Iarnród Éireann will be displaying the full plans for the project at various different locations for a period of six weeks.
The Railway Order documentation will be on display from 12th September until 24th October at An Bord Pleanála, 64 Marlborough Street, Dublin 1; Fingal County Council, Grove Road, Blanchardstown, Dublin 15; Dunboyne Public Library, Rooske Road, Castle View, Dunboyne; Meath County Council Civic Office, Drumree Road, Dunshaughlin, and Iarnród Éireann, Customer Information Desk, Connolly Station, Dublin 1.

Xyndrix · 08-09-2007 1:04pm

Victor wrote:

That would be the councillors in Ratoath, etc. speaking.

That does look like the reason for it alright. I wonder though if it really makes sense to deliberately raise expectations that the line is going to service places like Ratoath or Ashbourne if they know that it can't. Even Navan councillor Tommy Reilly weighed in to reinforce this idea in this story in the Meath Chronicle in advance of the election (You might more reasonably expect a Ratoath councillor to be concerned with this). West of Dunshaughlin was more or less dismissed and east of Dunshaughlin was tipped as the obvious choice (Despite the huge problem of the M3 being in the way). Surely there's going to be a lot of disappointed people if the study rules out any such deviation or alternative route. If the idea was never raised in the first place then perhaps it wouldn't be a big deal and people would be happy enough to have a station to the west of Dunshaughlin rather than nothing at all as is the situation at present.

Of course, we don't know what the Scoping Study is going to say yet, so perhaps it's premature to be considering all this right now. But it will be interesting to see how its conclusions compare with the impression that was created before the election.

Tadhg Crowley · 13-09-2007 3:07pm

Hi all
First of all I just want to clarify as one of the creators of the Meath MASTER Plan (together with Brian Guckian) that the rail partof the transport solution proposed within will in fact, service Ashbourne and Ratoath as well as Kells.
In addition there are Light-Rail lines proposed within the plan to service Trim, Kilmessan, Navan and Drogheda.

The road proposal is a compromise proposal to allow the M3 to be built as far as Roestown, and revert to 2+1 format on the N3 alignment, and then north of Blundelstown to return to the M3 alignment on 2+1 format.

There is no need for a motorway. With a balanced transport system that shares the load between multiple modes there will be more than enough "road", capacity to cater for current or even reduced vehicle traffic levels. The aim must be to reduce traffic levels and not facilitate more traffic, with bigger roads. Otherwise we are taking a backward step and making our future less viable.

As regards the implementation of any rail link by the government, it is our view that the Rail link is seen as a threat to toll revenue since it will be a competing mode of transport.

Secondly the Meath MASTER Plan is much more than a transport plan. It is a complete Sustainable Development plan for Meath. It proposes the introduction of Sustainable techniques into the Energy, Housing, Business Development, Tourism and Heritage Protection, Agriculture and to Education also to an extent.
The goal is simply to re-generate the local economy of Meath, make it more self-sufficient and to make both the local economy and specific indigenous industry better prepared for the future impacts of Peak oil and Global warming.

The Transport solutions proposed are essential to facilitate both the above plans and those of the World Heritage Park. In addition they will make Meath a much more accessible location and a reduced cost location for inward investment while at the same time reducing Meath's dependence on foreign investment for jobs in the long term.

Currently in Ireland and Meath of course, the development and economic practices being followed are making this country more fossil fuel dependent and more vulnerable to a significant Economic downturn when oil prices rocket.

This trend has to be reversed, and while it may be unlikely that the government will have the courage to do this, if there is pressure from the public then eventually they might.

We believe that the MASTER Plan will give the Meath public the knowledge and information to see that there is a much better future than the one resulting from a motorway, with tagged on rail link.
See more here: http://sacredireland.org/meathmaster/ and http://sacredireland.org/meathmaster/summary.html

thanks
Tadhg

Navan Junction · 13-09-2007 10:56pm

That Ashbourne deviation means a brand new allignment over 26km, dozens of extra road, motorway and water crossing bridges and an extension of the journey time from Navan to Dublin by rail that would put the "direct" line on a par with possible journey times on the Navan-Drogheda-Dublin line.

Also, it is unlikely that the people of Dunshaughlin and further to the west in Trim, never mind Navan and Kells and beyond, will want to take a spin across east to Ashbourne every morning and evening.

Why not service Ashbourne by way of a spur rather than a deviation if you deem it nessessary, say from Pace?

Thought on the Navan Railway and the M3

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