Black economy/ fake goods/ dole cheats & reporting

d9oiu2wk07blr5 · 28-11-2012 1:10pm

Truley wrote: »

A few of my friends who are unemployed or on CE schemes that sometimes sell art and crafts at farmer's markets on the side. They pay so much to hire the market stalls more often than not they're making féck all anyway. I would never begrudge someone doing something skilful and productive and the few bob they might get from it. The tax office would probably penalise me for wasting their time with my petty complaints.

The rules allow CE participants to engage in other part-time work....they are doing nothing wrong.

burgermasters · 28-11-2012 1:18pm

people are just trying to survive in most cases and should be left alone its the state that put them there at the end of the day can't stand it when people get reported for the sake of trying to survive these so called reporters need to get a life and not say so much attention to other peoples life's.

keithclancy · 28-11-2012 1:22pm

Rabidlamb wrote: »

The black economy means I can pay my unemployed neighbour €200 a week to mind my kids instead of the €320 a week the creche were quoting.
This means I can afford to go to work & pay taxes.
It means that she can keep paying her mortgage.

It's an Irish solution to an Irish problem.

Your just paying your 'unemployed' neighbour twice.

1. With the 200 euros / week they get minus the service rate of VAT (Which your paying again through your wages.

2. With the Social Welfare money and benefits that your neighbour gets.

Your neighbour is more than likely better off than you as they get 200 quid a week cash in hand, dole money, medical card and don't have any requirement for liability insurance or VAT.

Nice.

Rabidlamb · 28-11-2012 1:38pm

srsly78 wrote: »

It 's a short-sighted selfish solution, look at Greece to see where this line of thinking leads.

Selfish ? . . . . yes
Illegal ? . . . . not my end, it's up to her to declare

but in a country of zero enforcement you have only your morals to guide you.
Play it straight & you're taken for a chump.

In a country where none of the architects of our downfall have seen the inside of a prison I feel no shame for my actions.

Relatively speaking our arrangement is positive on the state coffers.

SEPT 23 1989 · 28-11-2012 1:53pm

Rabidlamb wrote: »

Selfish ? . . . . yes
Illegal ? . . . . not my end, it's up to her to declare

but in a country of zero enforcement you have only your morals to guide you.
Play it straight & you're taken for a chump.

In a country where none of the architects of our downfall have seen the inside of a prison I feel no shame for my actions.

Relatively speaking our arrangement is positive on the state coffers.

here here

Ray Palmer · 28-11-2012 2:02pm

pmcmahon wrote: »

I know a Lad and his dad who sell newspapers out of their boot outside my local church where i buy the sunday papers every week. The father is on social welfare and the son is in college.They stand there sleet,rain or snow freezing their balls off for 5 hours every sunday morning for what the father describes as "tax for the car" and the student "lunch for the week".

If these are the type of people who should be reported then fook the lot of you to be frank.

Great I am sure the local newsagent sees it exactly the same too. I mean he pays rent, insurance, tax etc... Some guy funding his child's education is fair enough newsagents are notorious for having no living expenses or children.
Nixers are great too. No insurance for the person working in your house. It isn't like they could sue you. Child minding is great too as kids never have accidents. Businesses are only charging you tax not any other expenses that protect you.
Fake goods are grand too they don't use unsafe materials or treat their employees badly. Children are good at fine detail due to their little hands.

Any extra from sw is fine it goes back into the economy when I buy fake goods off friends. Getting some selected items from the shops at a discount from my friend who has a bit of a habit.

Don't let reality impact on the belief nobody gets hurt by your own choices in life.

RainyDay · 28-11-2012 2:16pm

Anyone wrote: »

The one most common tax/welfare cheat I detest is single mothers who are actually living with their partner. I dont report them, but I am very tempted to.

I detest a social welfare system that incentivises people to stay separate, rather than forming a logical family unit.

northernpower wrote: »

A girl lives beside my parents, my parents own their house but hers is council, all paid for. She has 2 children to different fathers, the father of the youngest lives with her but isn't on the residency so his income isn't considered when she is getting her allowances for housing, children, unemployment etc..

I'm curious as to how you have such exact detail of her social welfare claims. Have you seen her forms, or what?

pmcmahon wrote: »

I know a Lad and his dad who sell newspapers out of their boot outside my local church where i buy the sunday papers every week. The father is on social welfare and the son is in college.They stand there sleet,rain or snow freezing their balls off for 5 hours every sunday morning for what the father describes as "tax for the car" and the student "lunch for the week".

And you genuinely believe what they tell you about "tax for the car" and the student "lunch for the week"

keithclancy wrote: »

Your just paying your 'unemployed' neighbour twice.

1. With the 200 euros / week they get minus the service rate of VAT (Which your paying again through your wages.

2. With the Social Welfare money and benefits that your neighbour gets.

Your neighbour is more than likely better off than you as they get 200 quid a week cash in hand, dole money, medical card and don't have any requirement for liability insurance or VAT.

Nice.

Indeed, and he is also making it much more difficult for the honest creche owner to survive.

UDP · 28-11-2012 3:01pm

davet82 wrote: »

when they start at the top, i'll report from the bottom.

This attitude is everything that is wrong in this country.

davet82 · 28-11-2012 3:03pm

UDP wrote: »

This attitude is everything that is wrong in this country.

i disagree :P

Red_Wake · 28-11-2012 3:19pm

davet82 wrote: »

i disagree :P

And you'd be completely wrong.

You're holding others to higher standards than you hold yourself.

Not unique to Ireland, but common here, and not just amongst the ruling classes.

davet82 · 28-11-2012 3:25pm

Red_Wake wrote: »

And you'd be completely wrong.

You're holding others to higher standards than you hold yourself.

Not unique to Ireland, but common here, and not just amongst the ruling classes.

of course there of a higher standard, sure isn't that why they get paid more, get more leniency in our courts and so on... monkey see monkey do

Celly Smunt · 28-11-2012 3:30pm

RainyDay wrote: »

And you genuinely believe what they tell you about "tax for the car" and the student "lunch for the week"

well considering they have **** all papers in the back of the car and sell one day a week,they'd be lucky to get about 30 euro each,so yes.

28-11-2012 3:36pm

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Its takes a special breed to pick up the phone and rat & squeal on their fellow citizens:D

Fair play to those that do some of these parasites are what is ruining our country.

Celly Smunt · 28-11-2012 3:38pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Fair play to those that do some of these parasites are what is ruining our country.

Ever hear of divide and conquer?

SEPT 23 1989 · 28-11-2012 3:39pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Fair play to those that do some of these parasites are what is ruining our country.

This country has been ruined but not by single mothers and blokes doing nixers

keithclancy · 28-11-2012 3:41pm

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

This country has been ruined but not by single mothers and blokes doing nixers

Ah sure why not just commit insurance fraud too, sure that doesn't hurt anyone and the bankers did far worse.

UDP · 28-11-2012 3:42pm

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

This country has been ruined but not by single mothers and blokes doing nixers

Everyone should be held to the same standard no matter who they are or how much they earn. Its the "ah sure, what harm." attitude that has ruined this country and constantly holds it back.

Celly Smunt · 28-11-2012 3:43pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Great I am sure the local newsagent sees it exactly the same too. I mean he pays rent, insurance, tax etc... Some guy funding his child's education is fair enough newsagents are notorious for having no living expenses or children.

.

well considering the local newsagents is a 15 minute walk off,he wouldn't get the business anyway due to the majority of the customers being elderly.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 28-11-2012 3:45pm

The "Black Economy"... lol.

Nixers are fine to be honest, have been around forever and I wouldn't have an issue with anybody doing a nixer. Social welfare fraud is another thing, and I don't mean cohabiting either.

How can you be expect the citizens of Ireland to abide by the law when the leaders themselves are neck deep in corruption. Start at the top I say, don't be bullying the little man making an extra few pound.

keithclancy · 28-11-2012 3:49pm

Alexandra Disgusting Treeless wrote: »

How can you be expect the citizens of Ireland to abide by the law when the leaders themselves are neck deep in corruption. Start at the top I say, don't be bullying the little man making an extra few pound.

Corruption ... b

Visit anywhere in Asia, Africa, now thats corrupt.

I know someone that went into the bank in Italy and they said "What savings" ... they were just 'gone'

Not lost in an investment or something .. just disappeared

28-11-2012 3:54pm

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

This country has been ruined but not by single mothers and blokes doing nixers

If you take that attitude for things like that sure you will let a lot of things go. Everyone has to be held accountable. No problem reporting someone if they are claiming social welfare when they not entitled when there are so many complying with the law who are struggling.

UDP · 28-11-2012 3:55pm

Alexandra Disgusting Treeless wrote: »

Start at the top I say, don't be bullying the little man making an extra few pound.

I see. So your argument is that everyone in power must be following all the laws first before anyone "lower" down has to. So if thats the case then everyone "lower" down should stop paying tax. Sounds like a great way for a country to prosper.

How about a different philosophy that everyone should follow the law.

davet82 · 28-11-2012 3:56pm

UDP wrote: »

I see. So your argument is that everyone in power must be following all the laws first before anyone "lower" down has to. So if thats the case then everyone "lower" down should stop paying tax. Sounds like a great way for a country to prosper.

How about a different philosophy that everyone should follow the law.

they should do that then maybe things might change, good idea

Celly Smunt · 28-11-2012 3:59pm

Deleted User wrote: »

If you take that attitude for things like that sure you will let a lot of things go. Everyone has to be held accountable. No problem reporting someone if they are claiming social welfare when they not entitled when there are so many complying with the law who are struggling.

you do realise that reporting someone for doing a nixer is adding making more people struggle?

I agree there are some people taking the piss on social welfare,but i also believe that some Irish people are too high upon their horse to see the difficulty of being on social welfare.They might be unemployed soon,and then we'll see if they'll stand by idle and look at their children living on beans for for a moral stance of what they once thought was once a drain on society.

Chris Ryan · 28-11-2012 4:08pm

Odysseus wrote: »

I often wonder about three this, a lot of my clients would engage in ripping off welfare to various degrees. There are those who really depend on whey get off welfare, others are just doing it because they can. During the good years I was shocked a what some clients where getting.

Single mothers in particular, they had their "book" what they got for attending a p/t course etc, some where getting 550 p/w then there was all the other stuff medical card, rent, etc. A lots has been cut back, but in one area I worked in single mothers where targeted, but the way it was done was wrong. I seen those who weren't ripping off the system were hit, and they blaggers just blagged their way out of it.

I have to say I hate this "it is my money" its not; once my tax is deducted from my wages it is the States money.

Anyway I don't know if that makes sense, but that is my 2c.

No! It's the State's 2 cents

Ray Palmer · 28-11-2012 4:22pm

pmcmahon wrote: »

Ever hear of divide and conquer?

This has to be one of the laziest and ridiculous statements used by people when people complain about the government.
It seems if anybody actually has opinion about social welfare it is rolled out. I saw it brought out on a homeless report by charity.

It suggests the government is actually setting people against each other to be able to get something past the public. Lets be clear it is our government not a royal appointment. They are not the enemy they are our own representative.

This belief is a hang up from when we were ruled by Britain. You cheat sw, tax etc... You are cheating your fellow citizens. If you ever want to be proud to be Irish do your civic duty.

Divide and conquer applies to those who want to seperate us from our elected government rather than pull together.

If the system is broken fix it don't stand around complaining.

The moaning in this country is the most likely thing to make me leave not taxes.

the_syco · 28-11-2012 4:32pm

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Personally I would not report anybody for making a few quid for Christmas. When Bertie Ahern can claim the source of his unexplained money was a win on the gee gees and he continues to draw a pension of 3 grand a week, why should I report a person selling mince pies at a Christmas Fair?

Personally I would not report Bertie Ahern for his win on the gee gees, because there's probably someone more corrupt than he is...

The Irish love the chancer, but haven't really figured out that the chancer is the one not paying taxes.

B.A._Baracus · 28-11-2012 4:38pm

Threads like these always spark a debate... But its just one of those topics where I think the reality of life and hypocrisy come into play.

As for the hypocrisy, take this example: A guy who is happy working away paying his taxes, a guy who also feels people on the social should not be earning a single cent on the side, suddenly loses his job. Has to go on the social himself ... If given the chance to earn a few quid of the side you think he wouldnt?

Life aint fair. Get what you can.

srsly78 · 28-11-2012 4:44pm

BA wrote:

Life aint fair. Get what you can.

Tried that, went to work in Banking for a while - got even more abuse than when I was on the dole

Ray Palmer · 28-11-2012 4:55pm

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Threads like these always spark a debate... But its just one of those topics where I think the reality of life and hypocrisy come into play.

As for the hypocrisy, take this example: A guy who is happy working away paying his taxes, a guy who also feels people on the social should not be earning a single cent on the side, suddenly loses his job. Has to go on the social himself ... If given the chance to earn a few quid of the side you think he wouldnt?

Life aint fair. Get what you can.

You are assuming people will forget their morals. I've been there and haven't. So don't assume what you don't know.

Lapin · 28-11-2012 5:17pm

pennypitstop wrote: »

I know someone, council housed with a few kids & husband out of work. She works hard & sells homemade buns at local car boot sales.......

There is no way this woman should be reported.

She is simply showing a bit of inititave and trying to improve her lot.

But if she called what she was selling 'Cup Cakes' I wouldn't hesitate to rat her up.

old hippy · 28-11-2012 5:19pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Fair play to those that do some of these parasites are what is ruining our country.

Which parasites? Squealers, single moms, nixers, TDs?

hatrickpatrick · 28-11-2012 5:24pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

It suggests the government is actually setting people against each other to be able to get something past the public.

That is exactly what they're doing.

Lets be clear it is our government not a royal appointment. They are not the enemy they are our own representative.

Well they certainly don't represent me. Eamonn Gilmore got my vote and he has not only turned out to be a political liar (see Wikileaks - misleading the public over his opinion on Lisbon so as to avoid losing votes) - he and his party have also broken an unbelievable number of their promises, which after all are the only reason anyone voted for them in the first place.

You cheat sw, tax etc... You are cheating your fellow citizens. If you ever want to be proud to be Irish do your civic duty.

I agree with this, but it has to come from everyone at the same time. In other words, I refuse to condone hunting down SW recipients unless we at the same time stop things like paying expenses to corrupt former politicians, paying off banking gamblers, etc. I'm tired of living in a society where ordinary people go to prison for breaking the rules, but those in power get a sneaky pat on the back. That has to end before we go after ordinary people.

Divide and conquer applies to those who want to seperate us from our elected government rather than pull together.

If the elected government behaved itself and stopped giving itself and its friends entitlements above the general population, nobody would accuse it of anything.

If the system is broken fix it don't stand around complaining.

That's the whole purpose of protesting and applying political pressure.

The moaning in this country is the most likely thing to make me leave not taxes.

I agree, but my solution is for us to actually do something about it. Would you be supportive of a nonviolent revolution? Or would you prefer to just learn to live with the unjust and incendiary status quo we've been asked to accept?

TwoShedsJackson · 28-11-2012 5:41pm

the_syco wrote: »

Personally I would not report Bertie Ahern for his win on the gee gees, because there's probably someone more corrupt than he is...

The Irish love the chancer, but haven't really figured out that the chancer is the one not paying taxes.

So, the only person you could see yourself reporting for corruption would be the most corrupt person in the country? What difference does it make if there's someone more corrupt than him?

Ray Palmer · 28-11-2012 6:16pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

That is exactly what they're doing.

That is opinion which I doubt you can illustrate.
Never heard of anybody going to jail for breaking rules, laws yes.

Democracy means the government represents you no matter what.

Hold everybody accountable regardless who gets away with what.
Strongly against any idea it is acceptable to steal because somebody else did but didn't get caught. It is a childish excuse to justify what is not acceptable.

Given what you have said there is no way I would support your ideals or mentality for a revolution. It would destroy the country. I am pretty sure I am safe as I doubt you could organise it

You don't need to destroy something to fix it

B.A._Baracus · 28-11-2012 6:54pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

You are assuming people will forget their morals. I've been there and haven't. So don't assume what you don't know.

'Morals' - its a grey area isnt? Oh people have great morals when it comes to commenting on others (I could never do that, terrible behavior etc) But when it comes to themselves being in a situation? its all too often a different story. Especially when we are talking about financial gain as we are here.

But I shouldn't assume what I dont know right? ... So your average irish person is of good morals?

people dont lie .... people dont steal ... people dont cheat ... people arent looking out for themselves?

So dont talk to me about morals

And dont try to come off as high and mighty

Ray Palmer · 28-11-2012 7:15pm

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

'Morals' - its a grey area isnt? Oh people have great morals when it comes to commenting on others (I could never do that, terrible behavior etc) But when it comes to themselves being in a situation? its all too often a different story. Especially when we are talking about financial gain as we are here.

But I shouldn't assume what I dont know right? ... So your average irish person is of good morals? people dont lie .... people dont steal ... people dont cheat ... people arent looking out for themselves?

So dont talk to me about morals And dont try to come off as high and mighty

Morals on certain issues aren't grey at all. You are effectively saying everybody will change their view in a a certain situation. I have been there and didn't do it so they are my morals. No reason for me not to comment on morals I am not a hypocrite as you accused people making comments are hypocrites.

Not high and mighty just reality where as you want to actively drag everybody down to amoral and greedy level. Yes yo don't know

loggedoff · 28-11-2012 10:07pm

pennypitstop wrote: »

Heard recently that there is a huge increase in the no. of people being reported for working the black economy, false Social welfare claims and even for selling copyrited and fake goods.
Facebook is rife with it & I'm sure a raid on an xmas craft fair would expose a few more.

Do you think people should report if they know someone?
Is there a serious problem in your opinion or are some crimes not so bad?

Would you report someone?
Would you even know where to to go or who to call?

People should look after their own affairs and mind their own business.

the_syco · 28-11-2012 10:29pm

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

the_syco wrote: »

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Personally I would not report anybody for making a few quid for Christmas. When Bertie Ahern can claim the source of his unexplained money was a win on the gee gees and he continues to draw a pension of 3 grand a week, why should I report a person selling mince pies at a Christmas Fair?

Personally I would not report Bertie Ahern for his win on the gee gees, because there's probably someone more corrupt than he is...

The Irish love the chancer, but haven't really figured out that the chancer is the one not paying taxes.

So, the only person you could see yourself reporting for corruption would be the most corrupt person in the country? What difference does it make if there's someone more corrupt than him?

My point was that there is always someone more corrupt, and thus saying that you wouldn't report someone because there is someone more corrupt than that person is a load of crap, IMO.

If they are corrupt, you report them.

B.A._Baracus · 28-11-2012 11:20pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Morals on certain issues aren't grey at all. You are effectively saying everybody will change their view in a a certain situation. I have been there and didn't do it so they are my morals. No reason for me not to comment on morals I am not a hypocrite as you accused people making comments are hypocrites.

Not high and mighty just reality where as you want to actively drag everybody down to amoral and greedy level. Yes yo don't know

Is your point is dont tarnish every single person with the same brush .... or is your point that no-one changes their morals? I am just totally wrong?

28-11-2012 11:44pm

Should I report my babysitter for not declaring her earnings?

Ray Palmer · 29-11-2012 10:09am

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Is your point is dont tarnish every single person with the same brush .... or is your point that no-one changes their morals? I am just totally wrong?

Don't tar everybody with the same low opinion. It is worse than saying everybody on the dole is scamming. You are saying everybody would. I am telling you you are wrong and therefore wrong calling people hypocrites.
The childish view on 'ratting' is also a ridiculous. People seem to not realise whistle blowers are required to catch people in high positions too. So if they adopt the same attitude you allow it to continue.

old hippy · 29-11-2012 1:39pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Should I report my babysitter for not declaring her earnings?

Clearly. We need a nation of whistleblowers, dammit.

joydivision · 29-11-2012 1:55pm

A nation of everyone watching everyone and reporting back to the government .
Begrudging someone at the very bottom of society 30 quid from a day of selling cakes in the cold . Some people in here disgust me . A complete lack of human decency .

When you lose your job and you are offered work in the hand for 200 a week plus your dole you have to take it . Somebody else will . What you are doing is reporting somebody being taken advantage of . You think these people are telling their boss not to pay them the full rate because they can get the dole and save the boss the tax insurance holiday and pension money ?
Its the company owners are the problem not the poor unfortunates being forced into it .
If they get caught the workers get punished and the employers simply say ah sure he was self employed I thought . He told me everything was in order .

Mince Pie · 29-11-2012 2:33pm

Just for the record with regards the woman selling a few cakes down at a market. I was talking to a friend who does it and wants to go legit. She's doing a course for business start up etc. Problem is not that she doesn't want to declare it, it's that the system makes it almost impossible for a small enterprise to get started.
In order for it to be legit she would have to get planning permission from the council to use her home as a business and then would be stung for business rates and all the other lovely charges that go with it in order to sell a few cakes to make 30-50 euro for 3 days work (baking for a day or two then manning the stall). Most markets are one to two days at the weekend.
So in that instance what the hell do you do? Oh yeah, report them! :rolleyes:

later12 · 29-11-2012 2:44pm

I have been unemployed once in my life and I have worked for the family business once in my life. It is my strongly held opinion that it is far, far easier to evade and cheat on one's obligations as a self employed individual than it is as an unemployed individual.

As good as Revenue are at their job, they can't look over your shoulder to see what you're putting in your pocket every day, especially where you're dealing largely in casual cash transactions. I'm not saying we cheat on our taxes; we don't; but I can see how easy it would be.

I can never understand why, when the black economy is brought up in discussions, talk immediately turns to the far more policeable social welfare claims, when it is likely that the bulk of the €20 billion black economy in Ireland actually revolves around private enterprise which feels unable or unwilling to operate in accordance with its tax obligations.

Anyone · 29-11-2012 2:51pm

One of the main reasons Greece is in the shít is their black economy. Nearly everybody there has earnings they dont declare or pay taxes on, or well they used to. The common replies in Greece were "everyone is doing it" or "gov officials do it".

So where does it end? Whats acceptable and whats not? Personally I dont see any grey area. If you earn income you should declare it. How or even if its taxed is a seperate issue.

srsly78 · 29-11-2012 2:52pm

later12 wrote: »

It is my strongly held opinion that it is far, far easier to evade and cheat on one's obligations as a self employed individual than it is as an unemployed individual.

As good as Revenue are at their job, they can't look over your shoulder to see what you're putting in your pocket every day, especially where you're dealing largely in casual cash transactions. I'm not saying we cheat on our taxes; we don't; but I can see how easy it would be.

Yes when cash is involved fraud is easy, but not all self-employed people have cash businesses. I'm self-employed and there is no cash in involved at all, everything leaves an electronic trail.

Most self-employed people will admit to achieving tax efficiency via unvouched expenses - but these allowances are the standard civil service ones!! Thus epic hilarity ensues when a public service member bitches about the self-employed.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it54.html see appendix 1

loggedoff · 29-11-2012 2:59pm

Anyone wrote: »

One of the main reasons Greece is in the shít is their black economy. Nearly everybody there has earnings they dont declare or pay taxes on, or well they used to. The common replies in Greece were "everyone is doing it" or "gov officials do it".

So where does it end? Whats acceptable and whats not? Personally I dont see any grey area. If you earn income you should declare it. How or even if its taxed is a seperate issue.

Should we tax social welfare then, the babysitters few quid, the few cakes sold to friends, the woman who minds a kid for someone a couple of times a week?
Should we tax every time cash changes hands?

Can you imagine the bureaucracy involved?

Anyone · 29-11-2012 3:01pm

loggedoff wrote: »

Should we tax social welfare then, the babysitters few quid, the few cakes sold to friends, the woman who minds a kid for someone a couple of times a week?
Should we tax every time cash changes hands?

Can you imagine the bureaucracy involved?

I explicitly said taxing income is a different issue. But people should declare earnings.

Black economy/ fake goods/ dole cheats & reporting

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