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"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

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    #1262
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Foggy_Lad: As the other poster stated they had a positive balance and therefore had not already used the deposit function on their leap card so the bus driver was mistaken in refusing to allow them to travel.

    Are drivers mistaking the deposit of €5 for a requirement to have a minimum positive balance of €5 on your leap card? What would give them that notion apart from canteen gossip?

    A heaare Foggy,would ya leavve ir ouh.....you and your "Canteen Gossip"...:rolleyes:

    If mtjm's post is the one your referring to,my reading of it is the card was in negative equity to the tune of 75c...ie displaying a -75c on the TIM screen
    mtjm wrote: »
    What is the policy of drivers refusing to let you on when your leapcard is under? I was €0.75 over drawn and driver wasn't going to let me on, I had said I'm heading into town and will top up also DB don't lose out on anything as when I top up it's taken out of card already. for a €1.25 trip

    I've been by more in pass think most was under €2.75

    However,if it's this post your championing...
    Thisisdamnh:I got refused travel on Dublin Bus because my card only had €1.30 and the fare was €1.90. He said my card did not have enough money on it. I have travelled with 10c on my card before without hassle. Very embarrassing in a long queue. Not impressed.

    As another responder has asked,in this case is it possible the card was at -€1.30 ?

    The situation with a Leapcard in credit,even if not enough to cover the Fare,is that it will display the relevant screen and fare-buttons,with no other Driver interaction save to push the relevant button.

    Perhaps we now have a SUPER-DRIVER grade who dons special goggles and microscopically inspects the Leapcard,but I rather doubt it,and even in this case the SuperDriver would still be presented with a Fare-Issue Screen,so where's your boeuf Foggy ?

    I regularly now have Leapcard users who are caught-out by rapidly dwindling balances either due to them forgetting paying for another person travelling with them or a mistaken on bus tag-off ( Does happen...:eek:)

    However,if it serves to satisfy some subliminal desire to do-down BusDrivers in general,then yes,your correct Foggy,I have a secret panel behind my wardrobe with the details of all the Leapcard users I don't like the look of...and so do all my other Busdriver friends...did you watch the Christmas Dr Who....?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #1263
    thisisadamh
    Registered Users Posts: 629 ✭✭✭thisisadamh


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    As another responder has asked,in this case is it possible the card was at -€1.30 ?

    I am sure it was at +1.30 because the driver told me that I was 60c short and when I went to Centra to top it up they told me I had a positive balance of 1.30


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    #1264
    Delta2113
    Registered Users Posts: 2,666 ✭✭✭Delta2113


    https://www.snapper.co.nz/ - This is what Leap could become?


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    #1265
    thisisadamh
    Registered Users Posts: 629 ✭✭✭thisisadamh


    Delta2113 wrote: »
    https://www.snapper.co.nz/ - This is what Leap could become?

    Is that not just Contactless Visa Debit.


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    #1266
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    thisisadamh wrote: »
    I am sure it was at +1.30 because the driver told me that I was 60c short and when I went to Centra to top it up they told me I had a positive balance of 1.30

    Thanks for that,thisisadamh...then in your case it is Pilot...oops....Driver eror,pure and simple.

    However,that does not imply some Foggyesque crusade on the part of myself or my colleagues to frustrate your journey...nope,it's just another example of a poorly handled soft-launch of a system which required a Full-On In Yer Face Launch.

    Even today,I can be asured of several "Moments" with LeapCard users.

    Learn from it,as I hope your recalcitrant Busdriver has ??

    Oh,and Happy 2013 to you too :)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #1267
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Interesting little snippet in the Evening Herald last night (Jan 2)

    http://www.herald.ie/news/auto-topup-of-leap-cards-on-the-way-3340445.html

    Some quite nimble PR puffery in evidence too...
    A spokeswoman for the National Transport Authority (NTA) told the Herald: "In 2013 we aim to launch Leap on Bus Eireann, Swords Express and other private operators."
    The NTA spokeswoman said: "Dublin Bus customers who use their Leap to travel more than 13 stages simply touch the validator, with no driver interaction required.

    "Those travelling under 13 stages put their card on the driver's ticket machine and the driver presses one button to deduct the fare.

    "Generally, this is quicker than counting out the exact change and paying with cash."

    Our NTA "Spokeswoman" is a Definite contender for the "Inventive English" award 2013...;)

    However the meat in the sangwitch,for me,were these chicken nuggets...
    More than 20pc of all 'casual users' of public transport -- who paid cash -- use a Leap card.

    She said: "Over 11m journeys have been taken with Leap".


    So.....with BAC stuck at c.50/50 cash vs pre-paid split,we now have a new category of cash-paying customer....the "Casual User"....so it now appears that one fifth of half BAC,s customer base now uses a Leapcard.

    This level of "success" after 12 years planning,€38 Million cost and 12 months in service....and it,s being touted as a "success". :rolleyes:

    A "success",for me would be figures around twice that level....I would want to see 50% of "Casuals" using Leapcard by now.

    With the initial glow now long-gone from Leapcard,the NTA is now facing an uphill struggle to ensure Leapcard becomes the payment method of choice.

    Those who would benefit most from Leapcard,have no idea what it is and even less notion of where to "buy" one...even the fact that it is FREE is'nt being used to it's fullest in marketing terms.

    It really does need to get it's marketing hat on if Leapcard is to assume the popularity it richly deserves.

    For example...in the lead up to Christmas I had several School-Groups heading to Carol-Singing and other ex-curricular activities.

    All of the groups featured Teachers with plastic bags of coins,all laboriously collected and counted.

    My usual procedure is to get the chizzlers on and then have the teacher do the "Moneychanger in the Temple" routine...

    NONE...NOT ONE of the Teachers were aware that the entire transaction could have been completed via Leapcard...

    Why,I ask,has Leapcard not circularized ALL Schools on the benefits of having a School Leapcard,which could be kept topped-up and used as required for such outings..?

    Why also,have Leapcard not installed a Group-Ticket facility,whereby I could issue a single transaction ticket to the Group Leader covering the entirety of the group ?

    The spin-off benefit,in marketing terms,of all these impressionable young children seeing the Leapcard in action is immeasurable,but not worth the NTA's time ?

    If I hear of any of the NTA's Leapcard team being in line for annual bonuses,I shall pay a Witchdoctor to put a hex on their houses !!!!


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #1268
    lil5
    Registered Users Posts: 430 ✭✭lil5


    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/7550-leap-card-refunds-in-first-year-3347250.html
    7,550 Leap card refunds in first year

    THOUSANDS of customers have been overcharged by Dublin's Leap card travel system in its first year.
    Figures obtained by the Irish Independent show the operators of the integrated travel pass have been forced to refund more than 7,500 customers who were charged too much for journeys during 2012.

    The vast bulk of the problems occurred at Irish Rail stations because of faulty validator machines.
    ...
    National rail users organisation Rail Users Ireland condemned the high level of overcharging experienced on Leap card rail journeys which it said was unacceptable.

    "Seven thousand is a crazy figure for refunds, and there could be thousands more people who aren't even aware they've been overcharged" said spokesman Mark Gleeson.
    ...
    The refunds on Irish Rail amounted to 0.36pc of the nearly two million journeys made using Leap cards last yea, meaning passengers were overcharged on one in every 300 journeys.
    ...


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    #1269
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yikes, that is a very high number of refunds on Irish Rail. It is mostly down to inoperable validators at certain stations. I experience this frequently myself at Sandycove station. Can't understand what has taken so long to sort this out.

    I wonder if the problem is that these stations are connected by unreliable 3G or DSL internet connections, can't think of any other reason for it.


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    #1270
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Any old reason for the media to bash the leap card, exactly the same problems would happen with the Irish Rail smart card, but that wouldn't make for such a sensationalist story would it?

    Don't get me wrong it needs to be dealt with, but the headline an opening of the article is misleading, laying the blame purely at the door of the leap card and the NTA, when it's clear that it's an Irish Rail problem.


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    #1271
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Irish Rail's smartcard worked great until leap arrived, its the Leap software which broke the system.


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    #1272
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Well I speak from experience, that the occasional problems that I've had with Leap on Irish Rail have been pretty much the same as I had with the smartcard before leap came out, I had to ask for a refund several times prior to leap, which was attributed to problems with validators.

    It's like the Dublin Bus problem with leap over charging was down to Dublin Bus, as they pushed a software update too early with the higher fares to their ticket machines, but instead leap got the blame when it was a Dublin Bus issue.


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    #1273
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Are all passengers going to be refunded? including all those across Luas, Irish Rail and Dublin Bus who have been overcharged whether by the validators or other human error or the system adding fares twice etc?

    Since the start of Leap thousands have been overcharged and do not even know about it but they will never get a refund unless they go looking for it! There should now be a full audit to see who has or may have been overcharged and arrangements made to refund those left out of pocket!


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    #1274
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Who knows what the NTA are going to do. All they say is that you can get 15/18% cheaper fares with the Leap Cards.

    Overall, the charges applied are by the transport operators and not Leap. It only acts as a credit holding service. It's for the operators to manage the refunds. As mentioned by Devnull, the problems with the Irish Rail validators will affect anyone who needs to use'em. Not just people with Leap Cards.


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    #1275
    Tarabuses
    Registered Users Posts: 724 ✭✭✭Tarabuses


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Are all passengers going to be refunded? including all those across Luas, Irish Rail and Dublin Bus who have been overcharged whether by the validators or other human error or the system adding fares twice etc?

    Since the start of Leap thousands have been overcharged and do not even know about it but they will never get a refund unless they go looking for it! There should now be a full audit to see who has or may have been overcharged and arrangements made to refund those left out of pocket!

    Apart from the issue when Dublin Bus updated the fares increase too soon is there any way that Leap would know that someone was overcharged unless they asked for a refund?


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    #1276
    Polar101
    Registered Users Posts: 3,752 ✭✭✭Polar101


    I got a Leap card back in April. Just checked the history today, I used it 28 times on Dublin Bus - which isn't a lot as I make 4 bus trips on an average week day.

    Only got overcharged on one occasion, it seems.


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    #1277
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Tarabuses wrote: »

    Apart from the issue when Dublin Bus updated the fares increase too soon is there any way that Leap would know that someone was overcharged unless they asked for a refund?

    Off the top of my head, Touch ons with no corresponding touch offs when querying Irish rail and Luas journeys. But running a check like that won't tell anyone where someone attempted or forgot to touch off.


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    #1278
    Be well and win
    Registered Users Posts: 329 ✭✭Be well and win


    Tarabuses wrote: »
    Apart from the issue when Dublin Bus updated the fares increase too soon is there any way that Leap would know that someone was overcharged unless they asked for a refund?

    I can't see how since Leap or the transport operator wouldn't know where you got off. If I'm on the Green Line and travel into St Stephens Green I don't bother touching off as I know I don't get anything back. Hence if their systems could run a report saying, "here's a list of people who didn't touch off", there is no way of knowing if that was deliberate or down to some system issue or if the passenger is entitled to a refund or if they were using stations such as Broombrdige which don't even have a validator on them.

    Irish Rail have an obligation to provide working equipment for people to use and it sounds as if they are not doing that. . However passengers also have a responsibility to take care of their own money. After all, if you get change in a shop after buying something, do you check it yourself or wait for the cashier to tell you that you've been given the wrong amount.??


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    #1279
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Generally even if the gates are stuck open at stations and say not to insert the tickets and to go ahead, you can still use the card readers on the gates to tag off as they are still active.


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    #1280
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Yeah, but at times they can be off line as well.


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    #1281
    Irish Halo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,429 ✭✭✭Irish Halo


    I have one of these for my forays back to Dublin, and it's quite handy (coming in from Lusk though means it eats money). The 2 things I don't like is 1) the whole paying on the bus it's slower than paying cash and 2) how they "tell" the customer how much the journey cost. It uses a similar system to the Oyster i.e. they take X amount when you touch in and refund you Y when you touch out.

    However the massive difference for me is that TFL tell me the value of (X - Y) AND my current balance when touching out (no info when touching in). But the LEAP feels the need to tell me X at the start of my journey and Y and the end of my journey (this could be 30mins or an hour later) and let me work out (X - Y) for myself and maybe shows my current balance (I can't remember).


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    #1282
    GLaDOS
    Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 23,202 Mod ✭✭✭✭GLaDOS


    Website seems to have stopped accepting Laser as payment for top up :confused: I've previously used it to top up online with my laser, but I went to top up there and it'll only accept Visa, Mastercard and Visa debit :confused:

    I don't have any of these, so that features pretty useless to me now =/

    Edit, found my explanation, 3D secure payment system
    Why can’t I use my Laser card- what's happening?

    Unfortunately Leapcard.ie no longer accepts Laser cards as a means of payment. Laser cards are being withdrawn by the Irish banks and are being replaced by Visa Debit cards. Please contact your bank for information on how to obtain a Visa Debit card. Alternately you could look into prepaid debit or credit cards.

    Cake, and grief counseling, will be available at the conclusion of the test



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    #1283
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    ScienceNerd wrote: »
    Website seems to have stopped accepting Laser as payment for top up :confused: I've previously used it to top up online with my laser, but I went to top up there and it'll only accept Visa, Mastercard and Visa debit :confused:

    I don't have any of these, so that features pretty useless to me now =/

    All all the Irish banks now have Visa Debit ATM cards. Your Laser card will be replaced by one of these by the end of the year. If you want it sooner, just call your bank and they will replace if immediately (I did that with AIB).

    Visa Debit has many advantages over laser.


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    #1284
    GLaDOS
    Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 23,202 Mod ✭✭✭✭GLaDOS


    Yeah you're right, I'm just lazy :p

    Cake, and grief counseling, will be available at the conclusion of the test



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    #1285
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Off-topic I know, but just while we're on the subject of Visa Debit, is it possible to use it for buying a Dublin Bikes subscription? I imagine not, seeing as there's no way of ensuring one would be able to pay the €150.


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    #1286
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Visa Debit clears through the same system as Visa credit.

    Laser is old, and downright insecure.


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    #1287
    Mr Simpson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,332 ✭✭✭Mr Simpson


    devnull wrote: »
    Visa Debit clears through the same system as Visa credit.

    Laser is old, and downright insecure.

    I'm pretty sure you cant use it for Dublin Bikes though, nearly 100% that it needs to be a credit card


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    #1288
    starviewadams
    Registered Users Posts: 6,116 ✭✭✭starviewadams


    You can subscribe by Direct Debit or CC.Visa Debit worked fine for me,just entered my card number,expiry date and security code.

    Though this thread seems to suggest that they could probably cancel my account anytime they want:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056534434


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    #1289
    Mr Simpson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,332 ✭✭✭Mr Simpson


    Basically, they don't allow Debit Cards, but they haven't found a way to stop them being used.


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    #1290
    Jayob10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,787 ✭✭✭Jayob10


    looking to get a monthly return ticket from Greystones-Connolly, how much would this cost generally?

    And then how much would it cost using a leap card?

    Never in my life have I see such a site so user unfriendly, its crazy in this day and age.

    Is it simply a case of swiping when you go through gates at each station?

    Cheers in advance for any advice


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    #1291
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Ticket Fare
    Leap Card / Iarnrod Eireann Smart Card €4.35
    Adult Single €5.20
    Adult Day Return €9.60
    Adult 7 Day Rolling Rail €37.00
    Adult 3 Day Rolling Rail €21.60

    Monthly Short Hop Rail Only €122
    Annual Short Hop Rail Only €1,220

    The last two tickets are available through the taxsaver scheme at www.taxsaver.ie if your employer participates whereby you can save tax and PRSI.


This discussion has been closed.
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