Irish Rail mismanagement: why do they run 4-carriage DARTs at rush hour?

Hilly Bill · 10-05-2013 12:16pm

BenShermin wrote: »

I've often gone into Connolly to buy a Sailrail ticket since the CIE office closed down on Middle Abbey Street. It takes the staff member behind the counter around five to ten minutes to do up one of those tickets. It only takes one customer like me to cause a huge queue if there's only one clerk at the counter.

Its worse when you throw in a train full of social welfare pass holders going up north.

goingnowhere · 10-05-2013 12:20pm

Signalling fault at Greystones yesterday messed things up

When its running on/close to time and nothing has gone wrong, I've never had a problem with the 4 coach trains in peak, never been left behind

I do find one end of the train to be much busier than the other

jkbrgs · 10-05-2013 1:23pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

Signalling fault at Greystones yesterday messed things up

When its running on/close to time and nothing has gone wrong, I've never had a problem with the 4 coach trains in peak, never been left behind

I do find one end of the train to be much busier than the other

I got caught up in that yesterday. At Connolly, we were told there was a signal fault and that trains were suspended between Bray and Greystones. By the time I got to Bray, they were apparently running again with a 15 minute delay. We waited over 15 minutes for the next train to Greystones - and in doing so missed the half-hourly bus - and only when the train arrived in Bray did they bother to announce that it was in fact suspended.

I'm used to this from IÉ but it was pathetic.

schemingbohemia · 10-05-2013 1:24pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Already been done.

Sorry but what pay cut to core pay has been made to IE staff? I'm not talking about reductions in overtime or allowances, core pay.

Hilly Bill · 10-05-2013 3:22pm

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Sorry but what pay cut to core pay has been made to IE staff? I'm not talking about reductions in overtime or allowances, core pay.

7%.

MGWR · 10-05-2013 3:45pm

jkbrgs wrote: »

I got caught up in that yesterday. At Connolly, we were told there was a signal fault and that trains were suspended between Bray and Greystones. By the time I got to Bray, they were apparently running again with a 15 minute delay. We waited over 15 minutes for the next train to Greystones - and in doing so missed the half-hourly bus - and only when the train arrived in Bray did they bother to announce that it was in fact suspended.

I'm used to this from IÉ but it was pathetic.

Seems to be the wrong focus at IE. Big rush to replace Mark 3s and buy Intercity DMUs while ignoring the infrastructure and signalling as well as maintenance. They even closed the suburban lines on weekends specifically to have eight-car DARTs run full time and instead they chop the trains clean in half for no reason. Also a mad dash for new paint schemes. I'd honestly rather ride in orange-painted Mark 3s (or even the four-decade old Cravens) hauled by 071s or 201s these days and have working signalling than ride in any Rotem DMU and be stuck somewhere due to broken signalling. (Shoulda painted the 8100s orange and black as well.)

dowlingm · 11-05-2013 8:13pm

As I noted elsewhere, it's always hard to divine what is going on in State companies at the best of times. I don't think it's fair to say IE did nothing about the infrastructure in the last few years. There has been a huge reduction in signal boxes with 100 year old signalling replaced on the Kerry line in addition to the construction of KRP, Ennis-Athenry and Clonsilla-Pace. We could all want more, I do, and faster, but let's not pretend nothing has improved. The Mark 3 issue has been done to death before.

In respect of the matter at hand, DART needs to become truly part of Dublin transportation and ideally would be hived off to be operated by a "Transport for Dublin" sort of entity with a mandate for public accountability including no FOIA exemptions except those common on similar systems. Toronto runs 6 car subway cars all day every day when at least some could be split. Want to know why? They calculated that the amount of time required to marshal them in and out of shorter sets cost more than the extra power consumed to haul emptier trains. Presumably DART made similar calculations but as part of CIE they will only tell you about it if they feel like it.

bk · 12-05-2013 12:10pm

Yes, I believe Irish Rail made a big mistake only being able to operate either 4 carriage or 8 carriage sets.

I think it would be much easier if they could form 6 carriage sets. They could probably run 6 carriage sets all day at quieter times of the year. Might be a little crowded at peak time, but much better then a 4 carriage set, while still gaining fuel savings over an 8 carriage set off peak.

I'm not surprised they found this in Toronto, staff wages are by far the biggest cost with any company, fuel (including electricity for DART) only makes up 8% of Irish Rails costs. So they really aren't saving much by doing this.

Jamie2k9 · 12-05-2013 2:48pm

Yes, I believe Irish Rail made a big mistake only being able to operate either 4 carriage or 8 carriage sets.

I think it would be much easier if they could form 6 carriage sets. They could probably run 6 carriage sets all day at quieter times of the year. Might be a little crowded at peak time, but much better then a 4 carriage set, while still gaining fuel savings over an 8 carriage set off peak.

I'm not surprised they found this in Toronto, staff wages are by far the biggest cost with any company, fuel (including electricity for DART) only makes up 8% of Irish Rails costs. So they really aren't saving much by doing this.

They run a mix of 4, 6 and 8 car sets.

MGWR wrote: »

Seems to be the wrong focus at IE. Big rush to replace Mark 3s and buy Intercity DMUs while ignoring the infrastructure and signalling as well as maintenance. They even closed the suburban lines on weekends specifically to have eight-car DARTs run full time and instead they chop the trains clean in half for no reason. Also a mad dash for new paint schemes. I'd honestly rather ride in orange-painted Mark 3s (or even the four-decade old Cravens) hauled by 071s or 201s these days and have working signalling than ride in any Rotem DMU and be stuck somewhere due to broken signalling. (Shoulda painted the 8100s orange and black as well.)

The whole netwrok had signals replacments between 2000 and 2005 and DCC was being completed before they had to stop because of financial problems. Railway lines for most routes are under 15 years only with Dublin-Cork all replaced over the last few years and for the level of service on them thats not very old. Then there is the cost of getting automatic level crossings which have cost them approx 5 million alone on Waterford line. Many farm crossings have being replaced by bridges which the farmers didn't pay for...

steamengine · 12-05-2013 2:57pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

They run a mix of 4, 6 and 8 car sets.

The last few sets I've seen off-peak have indeed been 6 car sets, presumably the original 8100 class.

TINA1984 · 12-05-2013 2:59pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

7%.

Wasn't that 7% related to pensions rather then a pay cut itself?

maninasia · 12-05-2013 3:37pm

dowlingm wrote: »

As I noted elsewhere, it's always hard to divine what is going on in State companies at the best of times. I don't think it's fair to say IE did nothing about the infrastructure in the last few years. There has been a huge reduction in signal boxes with 100 year old signalling replaced on the Kerry line in addition to the construction of KRP, Ennis-Athenry and Clonsilla-Pace. We could all want more, I do, and faster, but let's not pretend nothing has improved. The Mark 3 issue has been done to death before.

In respect of the matter at hand, DART needs to become truly part of Dublin transportation and ideally would be hived off to be operated by a "Transport for Dublin" sort of entity with a mandate for public accountability including no FOIA exemptions except those common on similar systems. Toronto runs 6 car subway cars all day every day when at least some could be split. Want to know why? They calculated that the amount of time required to marshal them in and out of shorter sets cost more than the extra power consumed to haul emptier trains. Presumably DART made similar calculations but as part of CIE they will only tell you about it if they feel like it.

This is your problem right here, lack of transparency leads to a lack of accountability and decision making favoring the company and staff rather than customers.

Has anybody here even contacted DART/CIE to ask them why this is happening? Irish people are really bet down, if this happened in other places with no explanation there'd be uproar.

Hilly Bill · 12-05-2013 8:19pm

TINA1984 wrote: »

Wasn't that 7% related to pensions rather then a pay cut itself?

No.

Jamie2k9 · 12-05-2013 8:47pm

Has anybody here even contacted DART/CIE to ask them why this is happening? Irish people are really bet down, if this happened in other places with no explanation there'd be uproar.

Why haven't you contacted them? It doesn't taken the brightest person to realize why its happening. Running 4 instead of 8 carriage trains means 50% savings on electricity and less maintenance required. Doing this 7 days a week and the savings add up...passenger numbers may of dropped also.

MGWR · 12-05-2013 8:54pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Why haven't you contacted them? It doesn't taken the brightest person to realize why its happening. Running 4 instead of 8 carriage trains means 50% savings on electricity and less maintenance required. Doing this 7 days a week and the savings add up...passenger numbers may have dropped also.

No, it's not a fifty percent savings, and perhaps not any savings at all, but more of a loss. Having to move heavier weights in the cars means a harder current draw per motorised unit and more wear and tear on the equipment and track. In the short and long run, they are beating up the trains by making them shorter.

And where have all the signals been replaced on the "whole network"? or farm crossings with bridges in significant numbers? We should have far more 100-mph railways around the entire network if all the signals have been replaced indeed.

Jamie2k9 · 12-05-2013 9:10pm

MGWR wrote: »

No, it's not a fifty percent savings, and perhaps not any savings at all, but more of a loss. Having to move heavier weights in the cars means a harder current draw per motorised unit and more wear and tear on the equipment and track. In the short and long run, they are beating up the trains by making them shorter.

And where have all the signals been replaced on the "whole network"? or farm crossings with bridges in significant numbers? We should have far more 100-mph railways around the entire network if all the signals have been replaced indeed.

Well with all manual level corssings and farm corssings 100mph will not be promitted for large sections of the netowrk. Cork is slightly different as there is none or very few farm crossings and most of the manual corssings are almost beside each other and most close at the same time which just isn't possible on other routes.

So the reducion in size if for fun is it?

When we have a railway which is carrying thousands if no millions of passengers for free every year its just a little difficult for them to spend on upgrades while not increasing fares further for passengers to pay for both freeloaders and upgrade work...

MGWR · 12-05-2013 9:25pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Well with all manual level crossings and farm crossings 100 mph will not be permitted for large sections of the network. Cork is slightly different as there is none or very few farm crossings and most of the manual crossings are almost beside each other and most close at the same time which just isn't possible on other routes.

So the reduction in size is for fun is it?

When we have a railway which is carrying thousands if not millions of passengers for free every year its just a little difficult for them to spend on upgrades while not increasing fares further for passengers to pay for both freeloaders and upgrade work...

It most definitely is "for fun", because it sure cannot be for serious business, especially on the busiest segments of railway; if what is being done is really viable, then we would not see threads like these where people vent their frustration at something that clearly is a detriment to the health of not only the railway but the communities it serves.

And that sounds like an overestimate of free journeys, with all due respect, never mind a diversionary argument. If this is a big issue, then I suspect it warrants its own thread never mind an independent study done on it, that ought to then be touted in all the press outlets.

If the state cannot prioritise the railway network, then they should give it to a private concern that will. The state seems to be getting further and further away from transparency as well.

Jamie2k9 · 12-05-2013 9:29pm

vent their frustration at something that clearly is a detriment to the health of not only the railway but the communities it serves.

Have you every traveled to a city outside Dublin?

And that sounds like an overestimate of free journeys, with all due respect, never mind a diversionary argument. If this is a big issue, then I suspect it warrants its own thread never mind an independent study done on it, that ought to then be touted in all the press outlets.

I don't think its overestimated alone on the train I take on Sunday there is always 25+ pass holders and over a year that would be 1,300 for one single train journey. 1.1 million pass holders and most people will at least make a return journey so that is 2.4 million jounreys and then the people who use it daily or weekly. Then there is the sexond person with a lot of the passes. Numbers will add up fast.

If the state cannot prioritise the railway network, then they should give it to a private concern that will. The state seems to be getting further and further away from transparency as well.

Will agree with that. CIE would be rolling in profits if all pass journeys were payed for and a private operator could demand this or not accept them and we could have a decent network.

hatrickpatrick · 13-05-2013 9:42am

davidlacey wrote: »

cost saving! why run a 6 or 8 car set when you can pack everyone in like sardines into 4?

But they're running the 8 car set as well, when nobody's using it. They could literally swap the trains, keep the same driver, at no cost or inconvenience whatsoever to Irish Rail and make life a hell of a lot sweeter for commuters. So why not?

hatrickpatrick · 13-05-2013 9:47am

KD345 wrote: »

I'm assuming that train will remain in service during peak hours. While you might be on it at 14.25, on it's return journey from Bray, it'll be hitting peak time hours and those extra carriages will be required.

That's exactly what I'm saying in my OP though, at peak hours you get the tiny feckers, the four carriagers with enough people on them to give any fire safety inspector an aneurism. So why don't they swap them?

Irish Rail mismanagement: why do they run 4-carriage DARTs at rush hour?

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