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Are the Private Sector simply Jealous of the Public Sector?

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    #92
    lindac78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2 ✭lindac78


    changes wrote: »
    Put the hand out like greece ;)

    For Greece this option it may (it will) come with a huge price.
    And their situation is far worse.


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    #93
    woodseb
    Registered Users Posts: 876 ✭✭✭woodseb


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    Do you think thats what I meant, half a million pastry wholesale businesses? As I have stated before, if carefully targeted growth sectors are selected and promoted, we can maximise returns and create sustainable long term growth. Besides which, although that amount of stimulus would create hundreds of thousands of jobs, they need not all be small businesses.

    of course i didn't think that's what you meant, i don't believe there is demand for anything like the amount of business across the sectors that you are suggesting - an injection of that amount of credit in the economy would be suicidal.

    I rather not go into the ins and outs of NAMA - it's been done to death elsewhere...


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    #94
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    WalterMitty wrote: »
    NAMA/abnking crisis might ultimately cost us 40billion NET in the end in a worst case scenario(might only cost 20biilion). The deficit in spending is 40billion EVERY TWO YEARS! NAMA is a one off hit when losses are eventually passed to taxpayer/national debt.
    Pity we can't cut the deficit by promoting enterprise with those funds, getting people off the dole and paying income tax and VAT, while in the same stroke keeping the banks capitalised as their loans get repaid.


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    #95
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    woodseb wrote: »
    of course i didn't think that's what you meant, i don't believe there is demand for anything like the amount of business across the sectors that you are suggesting
    There isn't the demand within Ireland, naturally, which is why we focus on export based businesses.


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    #96
    changes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 959 ✭✭✭changes


    Welease wrote: »
    I often see that stated, but it never made sense to me, so please explain..

    How would driving down wages equate to more job losses? The vast majority of multi nationals arrived here primarily due to the low cost of doing business.. (and yes there are other factors involved).. The majority who have left have relocated to GAR or Eastern Europe which are the new low cost economies.

    From my position, dropping wages (and utility costs etc.) would be an encouragement to creating new jobs in Ireland.

    In the short to medium term it would mean people with less money to spend in shops and on goods and services.

    Longer term its a fairly good idea though for job creation.


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    #97
    woodseb
    Registered Users Posts: 876 ✭✭✭woodseb


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    There isn't the demand within Ireland, naturally, which is why we focus on export based businesses.

    That may well be an answer in theory but the EU would never allow us to use such state aid on that scale.

    I think the strong, stable international businesses that we need to attract do not need cheap credit to set up here but are more interested in the current tax incentives, wage levels and available skills


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    #98
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    woodseb wrote: »
    That may well be an answer in theory but the EU would never allow us to use such state aid on that scale.
    Many of the major industries within European countries were set up with state aid of some shape or form, albeit before the EU legislation on it came into being, so it would be more than a little hypocritical of them to start complaining about it now, especially in the face of bailouts for private businesses (banks among others) from taxpayer funds. At the same time, these economic circumstances are unique, and as such call for unique responses; an opportunity presents itself if we have the nous to take it.
    woodseb wrote: »
    I think the strong, stable international businesses that we need to attract do not need cheap credit to set up here but are more interested in the current tax incentives, wage levels and available skills
    FDI is important and plays a vital part in our economy, but its important to remember that its a stepping stone, not a final destination. When they leave they bring their IP with them, and while they are here, they repatriate most of their profits.


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    #99
    woodseb
    Registered Users Posts: 876 ✭✭✭woodseb


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    Many of the major industries within European countries were set up with state aid of some shape or form, albeit before the EU legislation on it came into being, so it would be more than a little hypocritical of them to start complaining about it now, especially in the face of bailouts for private businesses (banks among others) from taxpayer funds. At the same time, these economic circumstances are unique, and as such call for unique responses; an opportunity presents itself if we have the nous to take it.

    that's the problem though isn't it - there is already measures in place to allow us to attract industry to ireland. Although it may be hypocritical, you can be sure the EU will draw the line at a massive investment program to attract business and they are already imposing strict sanctions on European banks that received bailout funds such as ING and Fortis


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    #100
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    woodseb wrote: »
    that's the problem though isn't it - there is already measures in place to allow us to attract industry to ireland. Although it may be hypocritical, you can be sure the EU will draw the line at a massive investment program to attract business and they are already imposing strict sanctions on European banks that received bailout funds such as ING and Fortis
    Not attract business, create domestic export based business, and this is the crucial difference. Unless they want their money back within the year, they haven't a leg to stand on, and in the interim we have yet to receive the NAMA funds.


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    #101
    MysticalRain
    Registered Users Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭MysticalRain


    Liam79 wrote: »
    MysticalRain wrote: »
    I think you're missing a number of points...
    PS workers in other countries do the same work for far less wages (and far less whining I might add too).
    If someone in the private sector isn't providing a good enough service, I can take my money and go elsewhere.

    Personally speaking, I don't actually mind the notion of paying guards, firemen and nurses a lot of money. Few people would disagree that those are tough jobs. But I do take issue with paying librarians 42K a year just to stack books


    Shows your ignorance of what you speak of. If you havent a clue what library workers do then dont have a go at them.

    Firstly they do way more than stack books. Thats a minimal part of their job and in most libraries there is a specific porter for that job as opposed to library workers. 90% of librarian work is done away from the counter.

    Oh and the avg salary of your standard library counter worker is 24-29K a year for the full time ones.

    But hey, you just generalise away there with no knowledge of what your talking about Rain.

    I used the figure of 42K because that was the figure given by a librarian I heard interviewed on newstalk a year or two ago. You can spin it whatever way you like, but there is no way you can compare the job a librarian does with that of a firefighter, guard or nurse.

    I don't know where you're getting that 24-29K figure from. It would appear that many librarians are actually earning an awful lot more than that.
    http://www.nuigalway.ie/payscales/index.php?name=ASSISTANT^LIBRARIAN^1
    http://www.ucd.ie/hr/add/salary_scales/scales.htm [Links on left]

    At this point I'm not even going to pretend to understand how pay scales in the public sector work because I can hardly believe those figures myself.


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    #102
    unit 1
    Registered Users Posts: 548 ✭✭✭unit 1


    PeteSanchez wrote: »
    the amount of generalising and pure BS on here is something else! All private sector workers are underpaid, over worked, out of work, on the brink, exhausted, great work ethic etc etc etc….All public sector workers are Over paid, lazy, useless underworked etc etc.... what a load of absolute BS and its spouted by a lot more than a small minority! Tell me this, when a fireman rescues you from a blaze, a nurse runs from patient to patient to help, a guard arrests the local scumbag, a librarian helps you with that FYP, do they fall into that category? And what about the retail outlet private secotr worker who couldnt be arsed to help you in the shop, the insurance broker who lies to you about your best possible premium, your buiding foreman who says "yerra shure, it'll do or as I have seen in many cases, your site manager arranging a meeting with lower level staff to discuss problems on site, only to "forget" to show up.

    Exactly, many people seem to think greed and fecklesness only applies to ps workers. By the way, where does all that ps payroll get spent I wonder. Mmm let me see, shops, pubs, cinemas, restauraunts, garages, small builders, gyms, hairdressers, barbers and so on. All in the virtuous, super efficient, cost effective, wealth creating, tax paying, PRIVATE SECTOR.


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    #103
    almighty1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,183 ✭✭✭almighty1


    Saadyst wrote: »
    I find it hilarious when public sector workers mention "paying taxes".

    Thats funny? Wow what a degraded sense of humour.
    Public sector do pay taxes. If they didnt then there really would be uproar in the private sector.


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    #104
    bryaner
    Registered Users Posts: 3,181 ✭✭✭bryaner


    I was always told if you don't do well in school you will end up working

    for the council


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    #105
    bryaner
    Registered Users Posts: 3,181 ✭✭✭bryaner


    MysticalRain wrote: »
    Liam79 wrote: »

    I used the figure of 42K because that was the figure given by a librarian I heard interviewed on newstalk a year or two ago. You can spin it whatever way you like, but there is no way you can compare the job a librarian does with that of a firefighter, guard or nurse.

    I don't know where you're getting that 24-29K figure from. It would appear that many librarians are actually earning an awful lot more than that.
    http://www.nuigalway.ie/payscales/index.php?name=ASSISTANT^LIBRARIAN^1
    http://www.ucd.ie/hr/add/salary_scales/scales.htm [Links on left]

    At this point I'm not even going to pretend to understand how pay scales in the public sector work because I can hardly believe those figures myself.

    Old statement, you can't educate pork


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    #106
    dorky dave
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭dorky dave


    Are ya workin ??? No im in the council......


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    #107
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,892 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    MysticalRain wrote: »

    I used the figure of 42K because that was the figure given by a librarian I heard interviewed on newstalk a year or two ago. You can spin it whatever way you like, but there is no way you can compare the job a librarian does with that of a firefighter, guard or nurse.

    I don't know where you're getting that 24-29K figure from. It would appear that many librarians are actually earning an awful lot more than that.
    http://www.nuigalway.ie/payscales/index.php?name=ASSISTANT^LIBRARIAN^1
    http://www.ucd.ie/hr/add/salary_scales/scales.htm [Links on left]

    At this point I'm not even going to pretend to understand how pay scales in the public sector work because I can hardly believe those figures myself.

    Well there's "assistant librarian" and "library assistant" confusingly enough. "Library assistant" is the lower paid one where you get paid 24K to 35K (after 10 years exp). Imo, that's still excellent money for a job that only requires a Leaving Cert and comes with promotion opportunities to better salary scales.


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    #108
    susiem
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭susiem


    MysticalRain wrote: »
    I think you're missing a number of points...
    PS workers in other countries do the same work for far less wages (and far less whining I might add too).
    If someone in the private sector isn't providing a good enough service, I can take my money and go elsewhere.

    Personally speaking, I don't actually mind the notion of paying guards, firemen and nurses a lot of money. Few people would disagree that those are tough jobs. But I do take issue with paying librarians 42K a year just to stack books.

    Can I ask when was the last time you visited a busy urban public library? I am a library assistant and wish that I earned something in the region of 42k. I also wish that all I had to do was stack books all day instead I am expected to be a babysitter for parents who refuse to pay for childcare like I have to every week and regularly take abuse from customers because I can't wave a magic wand and fix their problems whether they be library related or not. I'm also expected to be an agony aunt, an IT technician, an interpreter, the local CIC, a drop in center for drunks and drug addicts, the cleaner that has to remove vomit, used condoms and broken glass every Monday morning from outside the front door........can I complain to my boss ???? no because I'm told that I'm representing the local authority. The job I have like all other public sector positions was widely advertised and open for all to apply for.....and before anyone says, yes I am lucky to have a job it just baffles me why no one had an issue with my paltry rate of pay 3 years ago.


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    #109
    susiem
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭susiem


    Stark wrote: »
    Well there's "assistant librarian" and "library assistant" confusingly enough. "Library assistant" is the lower paid one where you get paid 24K to 35K (after 10 years exp). Imo, that's still excellent money for a job that only requires a Leaving Cert and comes with promotion opportunities to better salary scales.

    Without a Library Council of Ireland recognised degree in information and library studies, promotion beyond library assistant is very limited if possible at all ! Did it never occur to any of the begrudgers to apply for these excellently paid jobs over the last 10 to 15 years.


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    #110
    MysticalRain
    Registered Users Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭MysticalRain


    susiem wrote: »
    Can I ask when was the last time you visited a busy urban public library? I am a library assistant and wish that I earned something in the region of 42k. I also wish that all I had to do was stack books all day instead I am expected to be a babysitter for parents who refuse to pay for childcare like I have to every week and regularly take abuse from customers because I can't wave a magic wand and fix their problems whether they be library related or not. I'm also expected to be an agony aunt, an IT technician, an interpreter, the local CIC, a drop in center for drunks and drug addicts, the cleaner that has to remove vomit, used condoms and broken glass every Monday morning from outside the front door........can I complain to my boss ???? no because I'm told that I'm representing the local authority. The job I have like all other public sector positions was widely advertised and open for all to apply for.....and before anyone says, yes I am lucky to have a job it just baffles me why no one had an issue with my paltry rate of pay 3 years ago.

    My local library isn't that busy. I've been in it about six or seven times in the last year or so. It appears to be generally well-run. My only complaint would be that two of the women running it used to spend the first hour of the morning gossiping to each other while I was trying to do some study. That and a bunch of retired people who also kept yammering to each other while they read the papers. Incidentally, a few years ago I also worked for a government-run bank that had its own library/archive/knowledge Center. From what I recall, the people there were never under the same amount of pressure as other people in the building. Not even close.

    Some of the issues you're experiencing could be down to poor management if the problems are that bad.


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    #111
    susiem
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭susiem


    MysticalRain wrote: »
    My local library isn't that busy. I've been in it about six or seven times in the last year or so. It appears to be generally well-run. My only complaint would be that two of the women running it used to spend the first hour of the morning gossiping to each other while I was trying to do some study. That and a bunch of retired people who also kept yammering to each other while they read the papers. Incidentally, a few years ago I also worked for a government-run bank that had its own library/archive/knowledge Center. From what I recall, the people there were never under the same amount of pressure as other people in the building. Not even close.

    Some of the issues you're experiencing could be down to poor management if the problems are that bad.

    I wish I had a colleague to gossip to but due to staff shortages I find myself working alone most mornings. A public library that caters to the needs of general customers, primary school class visits, tourists, archivists, students, creative writers groups, internet users and book clubs can hardly be compared to a library in a government run bank.....perhaps it's time I looked for a transfer to a chilled out relaxed workplace like that !


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    #112
    MysticalRain
    Registered Users Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭MysticalRain


    susiem wrote: »
    I wish I had a colleague to gossip to but due to staff shortages I find myself working alone most mornings. A public library that caters to the needs of general customers, primary school class visits, tourists, archivists, students, creative writers groups, internet users and book clubs can hardly be compared to a library in a government run bank.....perhaps it's time I looked for a transfer to a chilled out relaxed workplace like that !

    One thing that always struck me about the public sector is that while some areas are run flat-out with barely enough people, other areas are like islands of serenity where nothing much happens. It's possible to run large libraries in urban centers without them becoming a magnet for scumbags and feral kids because I've seen it done in other countries. Perhaps a transfer to a library in a rural area of the country might be a way around the problem in your case. Or a bank library/archive job like you said.


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    #113
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,892 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    susiem wrote: »
    Without a Library Council of Ireland recognised degree in information and library studies, promotion beyond library assistant is very limited if possible at all ! Did it never occur to any of the begrudgers to apply for these excellently paid jobs over the last 10 to 15 years.

    Any library assistant who thinks themselves hard done by should go get a degree in library studies if they want better pay and stop whinging about being poorly paid.


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    #114
    susiem
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭susiem


    Stark wrote: »
    Any library assistant who thinks themselves hard done by should go get a degree in library studies if they want better pay and stop whinging about being poorly paid.

    I'm actually 4 months away from completing my degree by distance learning in my own time and paid for by my own money, a decision I made years ago before anyone had a gripe with my pay.


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    #115
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,329 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    susiem wrote: »
    Did it never occur to any of the begrudgers to apply for these excellently paid jobs over the last 10 to 15 years.

    I'm sure those empty positions were quickly filled.


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    #116
    susiem
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭susiem


    MysticalRain wrote: »
    One thing that always struck me about the public sector is that while some areas are run flat-out with barely enough people, other areas are like islands of serenity where nothing much happens. It's possible to run large libraries in urban centers without them becoming a magnet for scumbags and feral kids because I've seen it done in other countries. Perhaps a transfer to a library in a rural area of the country might be a way around the problem in your case. Or a bank library/archive job like you said.

    Other countries maybe, but the Irish have gone PC crazy, where does social inclusion end and common sense return, God forbid I should have issues with the attitudes and behaviour of our 'customers'.


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    #117
    MysticalRain
    Registered Users Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭MysticalRain


    susiem wrote: »
    Other countries maybe, but the Irish have gone PC crazy, where does social inclusion end and common sense return, God forbid I should have issues with the attitudes and behaviour of our 'customers'.
    Libraries shouldn't be treated as creches or day centers for junkies. I think most city center libraries should have at least one security guard on the premises to deal with any potential problems.


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    #118
    susiem
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭susiem


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    I'm sure those empty positions were quickly filled.

    Open for all to apply to


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    #119
    97i9y3941
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭97i9y3941


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    I'm sure those empty positions were quickly filled.

    usually through nepotism,they only advertise the jobs for legal reason i assume*you only had to look at the recent damming independent report which showed that jobs and other contracts given by the opw where given through that way*,and the private sector arent jealous of the public they just frustrated that there seems to be one rule for private another for public,you only to look at the news stories of staff refuseing to move to any new offices that the gov builds,and they give into the staff compare to the private sect you have no choice you have to go where the work is!.


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    #120
    susiem
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭susiem


    Fred83 wrote: »
    usually through nepotism,they only advertise the jobs for legal reason i assume,and the private sector arent jealous of the public they just frustrated that there seems to be one rule for private another for public,you only to look at the news stories of staff refuseing to move to any new offices that the gov builds,and they give into the staff compare to the private sect you have no choice you have to go where the work is!.[/Q

    You are wrong to assume.......I have the pleasure of working with 2 polish girls who like the rest of us had no 'pull' getting their jobs as they have no family here in Ireland. I have never been able to refuse to work in any of our 13 branch libraries, you go where you are sent. The contract you sign upon acceptance of your job states that you work in any location declared by the county manager. 3 years ago I was embarrassed to tell friends how little I brought home after deductions....now this amount is considered to be a kings ransom. Considering the work we do as frontline staff we are not paid accordingly, any other job I have ever held, which were mostly retail, my employers would never have allowed customers to speak to me the way my current employer considers acceptable, they would have been asked to leave and not come back. I work hard for my pay and I'm fed up being slated for what I do, I'm not naive enough to say there is no dead wood in the public sector, there are plenty who get paid for old rope but I'm not one of them. Congratulations to the government for driving a wedge firmly between public and private sector workers and taking the heat away from themselves.


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    #121
    97i9y3941
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭97i9y3941


    aye according to indo they had to call the guards in at med office in dub recently due to the public peeded off over backlog of medcard forms/missing forms..


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