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Best car for towing using a B licence

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  • 26-04-2015 11:03pm
    #1
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,296 ✭✭✭


    Somebody previously posted in this forum that the rules for towing on a B licence have changed - the requirement for DGVW of the trailer to be no more than the unladen weight of the towcar has apparently been removed. If that is the case, it makes staying legal significantly easier.

    Just looking at a few tow cars there and the best one I found (in terms of weights for a B licence) is the VW Golf 1.4 TSi 122 DSG.

    Unladen weight 1249 kg
    DGVW 1750 kg
    Braked towing weight 1700 kg

    As 1750 + 1700 is less than 3500, this means that a driver with a B licence can tow a 1700 kg DGVW trailer.

    Anyone got any thoughts?


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    #2
    Supergurrier
    Registered Users Posts: 7,289 ✭✭✭Supergurrier


    Torque is what you want


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    #3
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,089 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    BrianD3 wrote: »
    Somebody previously posted in this forum that the rules for towing on a B licence have changed - the requirement for DGVW of the trailer to be no more than the unladen weight of the towcar has apparently been removed. If that is the case, it makes staying legal significantly easier.

    Just looking at a few tow cars there and the best one I found (in terms of weights for a B licence) is the VW Golf 1.4 TSi 122 DSG.

    Unladen weight 1249 kg
    DGVW 1750 kg
    Braked towing weight 1700 kg

    As 1750 + 1700 is less than 3500, this means that a driver with a B licence can tow a 1700 kg DGVW trailer.

    Anyone got any thoughts?

    Looks great...


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    #4
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,966 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    That's good to know Brian, thanks for posting. Have you any link showing the old requirement was removed? It must be an EU wide thing too, surely?


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    #5
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    diesel for towing , and if your going to tow a trailer thats 1700kg by christ it would want to be something 4wd and powerful. Id barely trust a golf to tow a 1.2x1.2 750kg trailer.


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    #6
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,296 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    unkel wrote: »
    That's good to know Brian, thanks for posting. Have you any link showing the old requirement was removed? It must be an EU wide thing too, surely?
    I don't have a link - it was Cinio who posted about this originally so hopefully he can post something that proves it.

    In terms of car transporters for use with a B licence, the ones I've found with the highest capacity and the lowest unladen weight are Woodford trailers lightweight range, see attached pdf. Brian James and Ifor Williams transporters are a bit less favourable in terms of unladen weight/capacity


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    #7
    Flood
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 560 ✭✭✭Flood


    I would be carrying around spare underwear pulling that weight.


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    #8
    CJhaughey
    Registered Users Posts: 14,906 ✭✭✭✭CJhaughey


    1.4 150hp DSG is rated by VW as 1500 braked and 630 unbraked, I cannot imagine the 122 hp version is rated for 1700.
    In any case recommended maximum towing weights by the caravan club is to tow at max 85% of recommended capacity.


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    #9
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    BrianD3 wrote: »
    Anyone got any thoughts?

    Yep. Enjoy the clutch in the 1.4 while it lasts ;)


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    #10
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,089 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    unkel wrote: »
    That's good to know Brian, thanks for posting. Have you any link showing the old requirement was removed? It must be an EU wide thing too, surely?

    I was trying to find the appropriate law, and I actually discovered something very interesting and quite funny.

    So indeed as you say these were EU wide regulations.
    In short they removed a condition of trailer D.G.V.W being not greater than vehicle unladen weight to be able to tow with B licence. Beforehand case presented by OP would not be legal, as trailer D.G.V.W of 1700kg would be greater than golf's unladen weight of 1249kg.
    These EU regulations removed that condition, so now it's legal.
    Also those regulations introduced possibility of adding code 96 to your B licence, which would allow to tow a set of total D.G.V.W of 4250kg (so f.e. car with D.G.V.W 2000kg with towing capacity of 2250kg could tow a trailer with D.G.V.W 2250 legally on B licence provided code 96 was added.

    Hope this is all clear.

    Now have a look at legislation that introduced it:
    B

    Vehicles (other than motorcycles, mopeds, work vehicles or land tractors) having a design gross vehicle weight not exceeding 3,500 kg, having passenger accommodation for not more than 8 persons and where the design gross vehicle weight of the trailer is not greater than 750 kg.

    A licence with code 106 permits the combination of drawing vehicle and trailer where the design gross vehicle weight of the trailer may exceed 750 kg and where the design gross vehicle weight of the drawing vehicle and trailer combined does not exceed 4,250 kg.
    and
    “7.(1) A combination of vehicles which consists of a drawing vehicle and a trailer shall, for the purpose of these Regulations, be regarded as a vehicle—
    (a) in category B, where the drawing vehicle is in category B and—

    (i) the design gross vehicle weight of the trailer does not exceed 750 kg, or

    (ii) the design gross vehicle weight of the trailer exceeds 750 kg but where the design gross vehicle weight of the combination does not exceed 4,250 kg,

    All would be great, if not the fact that they fecked up as this is not correct.
    According to this regulation, you can drive a a set (vehicle + trailer) of D.G.V.W 4250 when you have a code 106 on your licence, and according to second bit you can drive one without code 106.

    Pity that EU law is as I mentioned above, so normally it's 3500kg limit, and with code 96 (not 106) it's 4250kg.

    Here are the regulations:
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2011/en/si/0483.html

    Luckily they quickly realised their mistake, and only 2 years later, they issued a law amendment
    (c) in Regulation 6 (inserted by Regulation 2(b) of the Regulations of 2011) by substituting in column (2) of the Table opposite B in column (1)—

    (i) in the first paragraph for “750 kg” the following:

    “750 kg, or, where the combined design gross vehicle weight of the towing vehicle and the trailer does not exceed 3,500 kg.”, and

    (ii) in the second paragraph for “code 106” the following:

    “code 96”,

    (d) in Regulation 7(1)(a) (inserted by Regulation 2(c) of the Regulations of 2011) by substituting for paragraph (i) and (ii) the following:

    “(i) the design gross weight of the trailer does not exceed 750 kg,

    (ii) the design gross vehicle weight of the trailer exceeds 750 kg but where the design gross vehicle weight of the combination does not exceed 3,500 kg,
    Which actually makes the initial regulation from 2011 in line with EU law.


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    #11
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,089 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    diesel for towing ,
    Why would that be the case?
    You can achieve the same torque on driving wheels with petrol engine. All you need is just bit higher engine revs.
    and if your going to tow a trailer thats 1700kg by christ it would want to be something 4wd
    Why 4wd?
    In normal conditions it makes no difference if only 2 wheels or 4 wheels are driving... It could make a difference on soft surface like gravel, sand, snow, etc...
    and powerful. Id barely trust a golf to tow a 1.2x1.2 750kg trailer.
    Surely 122hp is well more than enough to tow 1700kg trailer.


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    #12
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    CiniO wrote: »
    Surely 122hp is well more than enough to tow 1700kg trailer.

    You'd have to rag the sh1t out of it


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    #13
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,296 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    1.4 150hp DSG is rated by VW as 1500 braked and 630 unbraked, I cannot imagine the 122 hp version is rated for 1700.

    346704.jpg


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    #14
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,089 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Jesus. wrote: »
    You'd have to rag the sh1t out of it

    That's what engines are for - 6000rpm and off you go.


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    #15
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Good Lord!

    Cinio, what you want is a good Torquey diesel with some low down grunt.


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    #16
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,089 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Jesus. wrote: »
    Good Lord!

    Cinio, what you want is a good Torquey diesel with some low down grunt.

    Your torquey diesel on it's peak of 2500 rpm will provide same or even lower torque on driving wheels than small petrol at 6000rpm.


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    #17
    Flood
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 560 ✭✭✭Flood


    CiniO wrote: »

    Surely 122hp is well more than enough to tow 1700kg trailer.

    In relation to the golf the answer would be no.


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    #18
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,089 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Flood wrote: »
    In relation to the golf the answer would be no.

    Come on... nonsense.

    Some older buses with D.G.V.W of 18,000kg don't have more than 122bhp and manage quite well.


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    #19
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    CiniO wrote: »
    Your torquey diesel on it's peak of 2500 rpm will provide same or even lower torque on driving wheels than small petrol at 6000rpm.

    C'mon Cinio, you're bullsh1tting again. What you say might be technically true but that doesn't make the car as good an option for towing. Can you imagine driving the damn thing at 6k the whole time? What about hill starts? You'd have the whole street staring at you.

    And I don't care what anyone says, you're putting the engine under a lot more stress than if you had a similar diesel


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    #20
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    RE Brian's graph, how is the 1.4 rated at a higher weight than the 2.0 with over a hundred more horsepower?


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    #21
    Flood
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 560 ✭✭✭Flood


    CiniO wrote: »
    Come on... nonsense.

    Will you think about it for a minute, a 1.4 golf towing 1700kg. Does that really sound practical?


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    #22
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,089 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Flood wrote: »
    Will you think about it for a minute, a 1.4 golf towing 1700kg. Does that really sound practical?

    It does.

    This 1.4 golf had 122hp and 200Nm max torque.
    It's quite a plenty and as I said way more than needed to tow 1700kg.

    Look at the power chart of buses and trucks which are 10 to 25 times heavier than your golf's trailer.


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    #23
    Mycroft H
    Registered Users Posts: 9,316 ✭✭✭Mycroft H


    The 1.4 TSI golf has as much torque and and more power than the AHU 1.9TDI fitted to the passat. I cant see it being a problem


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    #24
    Odyssey 2005
    Registered Users Posts: 21,065 ✭✭✭✭Odyssey 2005


    Lads th golf would be able to tow the trailer (with a little difficulty) but surely the more important question is, would the golf be able to STOP the fookin thing safely in an emergency situation?. For my money that answer is no.

    There's a you tube video of a little Renault towing a large caravan uo mountain by some cyclists,and then coming back backwards:eek:. Perhaps some tech savy person could link it here.


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    #25
    9935452
    Registered Users Posts: 2,750 ✭✭✭9935452


    Odyssey 2005 wrote: »
    Lads th golf would be able to tow the trailer (with a little difficulty) but surely the more important question is, would the golf be able to STOP the fookin thing safely in an emergency situation?. For my money that answer is no.

    There's a you tube video of a little Renault towing a large caravan uo mountain by some cyclists,and then coming back backwards:eek:. Perhaps some tech savy person could link it here.

    My answer to that is yes and no. Technically you would be pulling a braked trailer. With a good setup on the brakes the trailer will stop itself.

    In reality the brakes may or may not be working correctly, If not working, the car will struggle to stop the trailer.

    If you were pulling 1700kgs with a golf, if you had any sense you would keep your speed down .

    Another thing not mentioned here is if you want to pull that weight you want to make sure the drawbar is rated to pull that weight, you could be in trouble if it broke


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    #26
    Odyssey 2005
    Registered Users Posts: 21,065 ✭✭✭✭Odyssey 2005


    If you were pulling 1700kgs with a golf, if you had any sense you would keep your speed dow

    If you had any sense you wouldn't even try it. Too many variables to go wrong.


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    #27
    CJhaughey
    Registered Users Posts: 14,906 ✭✭✭✭CJhaughey


    Jesus. wrote: »
    RE Brian's graph, how is the 1.4 rated at a higher weight than the 2.0 with over a hundred more horsepower?
    I'd hazard a guess that it must be some kind of Typo.
    The same car same weight and the 122 TSI is a kind of outlier in that series.
    Look at the braked weights between Manual and DSG, all the same throughout that chart, look at unbraked weights every DSG has a 10kg increase, how in the hell does the max braked weight of the manual be 300kg less than a DSG?, thats the weight of a trailer.
    It makes no sense and I wouldn't trust that information.
    Check with VW directly before you go looking for that car to tow a 1700kg trailer, likely the disclaimer at the bottom of the page will absolve them.


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    #28
    9935452
    Registered Users Posts: 2,750 ✭✭✭9935452


    Odyssey 2005 wrote: »
    If you were pulling 1700kgs with a golf, if you had any sense you would keep your speed dow

    If you had any sense you wouldn't even try it. Too many variables to go wrong.

    I wouldnt do it to my car and i had a golf , it would wreck a car, but some people dont think the same, This is where this thread came from.

    Original point was good trailer brakes will stop that weight which is a requirement for pulling a trailer of that weight by a golf

    The response to that will more than likely , a lot of trailer brakes dont work or work properly. in that case if you have an accident you could have insurance issues.


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    #29
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,296 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    In any case the Golf Mk7 1.6 TDi and 2.0 TDi can tow 1500 kg and 1600 kg respectively - and the DGVWs of the cars is such that all of this towing capacity can be used without going over 3500 kg.

    I posted a brochure from Woodford trailers earlier - a car transporter with DGVW of 1600 kg has a cargo capacity of 1200 kg.

    The next size up has a 2000 kg DGVW and a 1500 kg capacity - so even if was downplated to 1700 kg, the capacity would be the same. So for towing a Woodford car transporter, the 1.4 TSi Golf with its (possibly incorrect) towing figure of 1700 kg doesn't really give any advantage over the 2.0 TDi with its towing figure of 1600 kg.


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    #30
    mullingar
    Registered Users Posts: 5,341 ✭✭✭mullingar


    BrianD3 wrote: »
    In any case the Golf Mk7 1.6 TDi and 2.0 TDi can tow 1500 kg and 1600 kg respectively - and the DGVWs of the cars is such that all of this towing capacity can be used without going over 3500 kg.

    I posted a brochure from Woodford trailers earlier - a car transporter with DGVW of 1600 kg has a cargo capacity of 1200 kg.

    The next size up has a 2000 kg DGVW and a 1500 kg capacity - so even if was downplated to 1700 kg, the capacity would be the same. So for towing a Woodford car transporter, the 1.4 TSi Golf with its (possibly incorrect) towing figure of 1700 kg doesn't really give any advantage over the 2.0 TDi with its towing figure of 1600 kg.

    Your sums are a little wrong if you want to use a 1700kg rated towing car to tow a laden transporter..

    If you subtract the DGVW from the cargo rating it will give the unladen trailer weight = 500kg, this will only allow you to tow a car maximum 1,200 kg (1,700-500). The lightest new Golf, the 1.2TSI weighs 1,205kg, so technically you cant even tow that.


    My 2WD petrol is plated to 2000kg :cool:


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    #31
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,296 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    mullingar wrote: »
    Your sums are a little wrong if you want to use a 1700kg rated towing car to tow a laden transporter..

    If you subtract the DGVW from the cargo rating it will give the unladen trailer weight = 500kg, this will only allow you to tow a car maximum 1,200 kg (1,700-500).
    Yeah that's what I meant
    2000 kg transporter (500 kg unladen) downplated to 1700 kg = 1200 kg max cargo.
    1600 kg transporter (400 kg unladen) = 1200 kg max cargo.
    Therefore the same.

    If the 2000 kg DGVW transporter is downplated to 1800 kg DGVW then the max cargo is 1300 kg but 1800 kg DGVW exceeds the towing capacity of the car we were talking about.


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