Daughter forced to believe in God

Cymini Sectores · 05-09-2014 3:34pm

Cabaal wrote: »

and yet the same can't be done with the existing school?
:rolleyes:

Sure it could, but apparently OP has an issue with religion and it's his child we are talking about here.

You talk of asking OP to talk to the school... it's a Catholic school and I presume the attendees are expected to believe in its tenets.

realdanbreen · 05-09-2014 3:41pm

Cymini Sectores wrote: »

Sure it could, but apparently OP has an issue with religion and it's his child we are talking about here.

You talk of asking OP to talk to the school... it's a Catholic school and I presume the attendees are expected to believe in its tenets.

Seems like the OP is airing his grieveances through his 7 year old.

Cabaal · 05-09-2014 3:51pm

Cymini Sectores wrote: »

You talk of asking OP to talk to the school... it's a Catholic school and I presume the attendees are expected to believe in its tenets.

Students have no such requirement to partake in religious indoctrination in state funded schools, they can under our constitution opt out

Delirium · 05-09-2014 3:52pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

Seems like the OP is airing his grieveances through his 7 year old.

have a read of the starting post.

bajer101 wrote: »

My seven year old daughter moved to a Catholic school from an Educate Together school for logistical reasons. I'm a single Dad and am an atheist. I have always told my daughter that she can believe whatever she wants but that it would be better to wait until she is older to make her mind up as it is a very complicated subject.

I knew that moving her to a Catholic school would involve some religious teaching, but I thought that in this day and age it would be minimal. The trouble started on the first day when the class were colouring in a picture of Jesus and my daughter announced that she didn't believe in God. Her teacher told her that if said that again that she would be sent back to her old school! The other kids also seemed to gang up on her a bit over this. Over the next few days the subject came up again and she was sent to the principal's office and the principal told her that she had to believe in God!

My daughter is very upset over this and has feigned sickness to avoid going to school and last night she even disabled the alarm on my phone so that I wouldn't wake up in time (her plan worked!).

I am not sure what to do about this. The way I see it I have a few options.
1. Take her out of the school straight away as it is obviously very religiously oriented and there will be no good outcome if she is left there.
2. Get my daughter to play along and go with the flow.
3. Talk to the teacher and principal and try to come up with a reasonable solution.
4. Go all out nuclear and kick up a huge fuss and demand that my daughter be allowed opt out of all religious activity.

Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated.

Norma_Desmond · 05-09-2014 4:02pm

96/97% of schools in Ireland are Christian schools.
That leaves a very small percentage variety for those of non-Christian faith/no religion.
People are forced to put their children into Catholic schools because of lack of choice, not because they want to.

Tombo2001 · 05-09-2014 4:14pm

Cabaal wrote: »

You do what you want to, not everyone can travel 10, 20, 30m 40, 50 miles to the nearest none catholic ethos school.

If that means having a cert to the school and then opting the child out of religion once they get in that thats a persons decision to do so, I don't personally think its a good idea as it means nothing will change but its a viable option.

We have a situation in our schools where a school can get rid of students OR teachers if they are not in-line with the ethos (student for being pregnant or a teacher for being gay), they are exempt from legislation that numerous other employers must follow when it comes to equality.

I would note however that some schools are far more strict in using this hierarchy then others, just like some schools are more open to gay teachers etc. Not all schools are created equally....mileage can vary depending on where you are in the country.

Has this debate turned 180 degrees.

My point all along is that it is sometimes better to get your child baptised than, to reference your example, travel 40 miles a day to a non-denominational school.

Cabaal · 05-09-2014 4:18pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

My point all along is that it is sometimes better to get your child baptised than, to reference your example, travel 40 miles a day to a non-denominational school.

While I don't agree with it, if somebody wants to do that then they can...its their personal choice. Also I'd like to point out to you that there are effectively no non-denominational schools in Ireland.

In relation to people that choose to baptise their kids for school entry only, in doing so they must accept that they are only kicking the can down the road and that will result in the same difficult situation for many many others,....it might even be the same for their children when they get older and they have children.

Why make a choice that makes your own child's life harder in the long run? Also its a very odd thing to be ok with, taking part in a ceremony where you agree that you 1. believe in a god, 2. agree to raise your children in-line with the catholic church rules if you do not believe in a god. Its not a good start to your childrens life when you lie like this to yourself, your family, your friends and more importantly your child.

Overall the more people that make a stand the more chance this situation is forced into changing, thats a good thing for everyone of every other faith or non-faith when it comes to approx 97% of our state funded schools.

You have to remember that while a school can prioritise Catholics over atheists, they can just as easily discriminate against Jews, Muslims, Protestants etc

Tombo2001 · 05-09-2014 4:41pm

Cabaal wrote: »

While I don't agree with it, if somebody wants to do that then they can...its their personal choice. Also I'd like to point out to you that there are effectively no non-denominational schools in Ireland.

In relation to people that choose to baptise their kids for school entry only, in doing so they must accept that they are only kicking the can down the road and that will result in the same difficult situation for many many others,....it might even be the same for their children when they get older and they have children.

Why make a choice that makes your own child's life harder in the long run? Also its a very odd thing to be ok with, taking part in a ceremony where you agree that you 1. believe in a god, 2. agree to raise your children in-line with the catholic church rules if you do not believe in a god. Its not a good start to your childrens life when you lie like this to yourself, your family, your friends and more importantly your child.

Overall the more people that make a stand the more chance this situation is forced into changing, thats a good thing for everyone of every other faith or non-faith when it comes to approx 97% of our state funded schools.

You have to remember that while a school can prioritise Catholics over atheists, they can just as easily discriminate against Jews, Muslims, Protestants etc

You are coming at it from an idealistic point of view. I am coming at it from a practical point of view.

Nonetheless I agree with your point about kicking the can down the road. At some point this may become a problem for this kid, as in the case of the OP.

Parents should be aware of this, and weigh up this difficulty against the difficulty involved in finding a non-denominational school that can offer an education of equal quality, and involves the same commute.

On your final point, and a CoI school or Muslim or Jewish school can and do equally prioritise children of their religions.

RustyNut · 05-09-2014 4:51pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Just to remind people:

Religious Denominated Primary Schools have a hierarchy of who they will admit:

Whether it be CoI or Catholic (dont know about the muslim one).

It is:
(i) Children from the local parish of that denomination
(ii) Children from outside the local parish, of that denomination
(iii) Children from the local parish not of that denomination
(iv) Children from outside the local parish, not of that denomination.

What this means is that if you live next door to a primary school in say Ballyfermot, and your child is not baptised, then a Catholic/ CofI child living in Kildare or Meath or Wicklow would be offerred a place in the school next door to you, before your child would be offerred a place.

Messed up? Absolutely.
Campaign to change it? Go for it.*
But in the meantime.....what do you do for your kid. Do you take the hit on the baptism so he/she can go to the school next door; or do you go the end of a 500 long queue for an Educate Together 6 miles away.

*Bear in mind that most people do not give this subject a second's thought until they actually start applying to schools for their child, by which time they have an immediate need.

As someone who went the 6 mile away educate together route, I was a lot happier to do the school run and know that mine were getting a rounded education rather than have them taught something that could not possibly be true.

Its just my opinion but i think that if you teach kids to believe in things that are blatantly untrue such as jesus feeding thousands with a couple of fresh cod and a batch loaf or mohammed riding off to heaven on a winged donkey then you are leaving them open to be convinced that anything might be true no matter how unlikely leaving them open to be manipulated later in life.

Cabaal · 05-09-2014 4:51pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

On your final point, and a CoI school or Muslim or Jewish school can and do equally prioritise children of their religions.

No doubt they do,
At the end of the day I have no problem with any school doing so, as long as they do not receive state funds, teachers are not paid by the tax payer etc.

Once they start receiving state funds and the teachers are paid by the Irish state then no specific religious faith should be pushed above another, ideally they should be non-denominational.....however since that hasn't even yet happened I'd settle for multi-denominational like educate together (not ideal but it'll do).

If for example if a private school wants only Catholics and they get no state funding they can happily work away in doing that as far as I'm concerned.

bajer101 · 06-09-2014 1:17am

Hi, OP here again. Thanks for all the responses and opinions and apologies for the delay in responding. I had a procedure in hospital today and haven't been in a position to reply. I spoke to my daughter further about what happened and I am sure that her teacher did tell her she would be sent back to her previous school if she mentioned that she did not believe in God again. I now think that the Principal tried to deal with this a bit more reasonably. I got some more info from my daughter. I hadn't previously pumped her for exact details as I find that it's best to let the information flow during casual chats. What seems to have happened is that two older students acting as messengers, arrived in her class and said that my daughter had to go to the Principal's office for a "message". My daughter was a bit vague about the conversation that took place. She said she didn't really understand it all. She said she was asked if she wanted to make her Communion and she said yes. I think that's where the having to believe in God came into it.

I've met the principal prior to my daughter's enrollment and she seems like a very nice person. My daughter's discomfort doesn't seem to be based on the Principal's conversation, but more so from her teacher's attitude, who obviously caused her to be called to the Principal's office, and by the other kids in her class who seem to think that she is a freak for not believing in God. The other kids in her class are saying things to her about not believing in God.

I am not trying to make a huge stance about demanding that she can opt out. I am a single Dad and already face huge discrimination about that without having to deal with this nonsense. I don't want to become a poster boy for atheist rights - I just didn't expect to have to deal with this rubbish. I was educated by Jesuits over thirty years ago and didn't have to deal with this.

Some people have posted about it not being appropriate to ask a seven year old about what she wanted, but I disagree. Of course I had to ask her what she thinks. This is the first time that the subject has ever been seriously raised. As far as I was concerned, she was way too young to have any serious opinion on the subject - she can make her own mind up later. She knows that some people believe in god, and in the past she has mentioned believing in Heaven and she told the Principal that she wants to make her communion. But the issue seems to have been forced now, so I asked her what she thinks. I asked her if she wants to make her Communion and she said - yes. I explained transubstantiation and she thought for a few seconds and said that's stupid and that she doesn't want to make her Communion. I asked her if she would be happy if I told the school that she wouldn't have to learn about religion and god and she said, yes.

I know that this is not the ideal scenario and lots of people from both sides of the camp will come out and point out the flaws in my approach. But I think it is the best I can do at the moment. She is free to believe whatever she wants and she won't be indoctrinated by anyone. I pay my taxes and more than cover the cost of her education with those taxes. I am entitled to have her educated in a school that is funded by those taxes. If the school doesn't like it, they can become private and only accept students who pay them privately.

The big problem I have, and the issue which I always foresaw is that she will be isolated. It's hard enough for her starting a new school and being different without singled out as the kid who doesn't believe in God - and this has already happened. When it boils down to it, this was the decision I had to make. Do I ask her to lie and pretend so that she is accepted, or do I ask her to stand up for what she believes and hope that the system will support her. It's a terrible position to be put in. She has had enough problems in her life so far without this. I think the best thing to do is the get the school to allow her to opt out as that is what she wants, and then stay right on top of it to make sure that there is no bullying.

BTW - if anyone comments about me forcing my atheist opinions on her or talks about me sending her to a Catholic school and that I have to accept what they tell my child - please don't bother. Life is tough enough without having to read that.

Calhoun · 06-09-2014 1:42am

Ill put it as simple as this OP, keep going the way your going and look to work with the principal because at the end of the day this is one of the battles you have to be very careful around.

My brother is 10 and last year he was in a class with a teacher who is notoriously unfair to male students, so much so that allot of the parents have gone to the principal and beyond in an attempt to have her removed. The only solution is that they boys are moving on a year.

All i am saying is be very careful because if a teacher was crazy enough to threaten a seven year old then who knows where this will go.

bajer101 · 06-09-2014 1:52am

I understand that I have to be careful, but I have to do the right thing for her. She made my mind up when she said that if she pretended to believe in God that she would be lying. How could I proceed otherwise after she said that? I know it's opening a can of worms. The easy part is exercising her constitutional rights. The tough part is dealing with the fallout and the possible bullying. I just have to deal with that and stay right on top of it and make sure that the school will be aware of their obligations. It's not a decision I am taking lightly and I am actually more focused on discussing with the school their policy on bullying than their policy on religion.

Calhoun · 06-09-2014 2:00am

bajer101 wrote: »

I understand that I have to be careful, but I have to do the right thing for her. She made my mind up when she said that if she pretended to believe in God that she would be lying. How could I proceed otherwise after she said that? I know it's opening a can of worms. The easy part is exercising her constitutional rights. The tough part is dealing with the fallout and the possible bullying. I just have to deal with that and stay right on top of it and make sure that the school will be aware of their obligations. It's not a decision I am taking lightly and I am actually more focused on discussing with the school their policy on bullying than their policy on religion.

That's fine doing the right thing by her but she may have to learn that there is intolerance in this world for certain beliefs very early on.

The tough part will be dealing with possible bullying but you wont be dealing with it she will so keep that in mind.

Honestly i think what your doing is admirable and sticking up for her is great, i am not trying to scare you our anything just make sure your well prepare to arm her to deal with this.

I am hopeful because of your previous conversation with the principal this will work out ok ect and you wont have any issues. Don't go in with accusation of bullying right off the bat though as it may galvanize the situation.

ash23 · 06-09-2014 2:03am

Op it's pointless worrying about what might be until it happens for sure.
Kids are fairly accepting at that age. My child goes to a medium sized country Catholic school and the mix of kids in her class is pretty astounding.
Kids are curious and not always tactful when asking questions or making statements. I've heard a few humdingers down the years via my daughter talking about her classmates.
From Hinduism to Muslims, adoption, absent parents and various races and cultures, some questions asked would make your jaw drop.

Kids will always query what is different and it doesn't mean your daughter is destined for a life of solitude. She was already a curiosity as she was new and then to be an atheist on top of it will make her curiosity of the week. And yes at some point when they find out she lives just with her dad she will be curiouser and curiouser. Until the next "what the????" comes along.

I've had it with my own and imo the best thing to do is just teach your daughter the best way to react. Which is nonchalant and non reactive.
When my kid got a "that's sooooo weird" when they found she'd never met her dad, she just shrugged and said it's just how it is. Interest quickly went elsewhere when they realised she wasn't all that bothered.

And yes, it did get to her a bit. She was a little low when she got home. But it was forgotten in a day or two.

Just tell the school what is what and teach your daughter how to answer questions or quips her classmates might put to her.
They'll soon just accept it as par for the course I would think and she'll settle in hopefully.

bajer101 · 06-09-2014 2:13am

Thanks guys - that's some great advice and it's very much appreciated. I'm sure we'll be able to find a a reasonable solution. I wouldn't even go as far as to describe her as an atheist - she's seven! She still believes in Santa! No child of that age has any firm beliefs. My main point in starting this thread was that I didn't like that she was being told that she HAD to believe in God and that her teacher threatened her for for voicing a dissenting opinion. I reckon that I'll be able to thrash this out with the Principal, but I suspect that her teacher might be a bit more narrow minded. It's early days yet so we'll see.

Hotblack Desiato · 06-09-2014 2:18am

Hang in there OP, what might look like catholic devotion is 99% bull****, almost nobody actually believes that crap, the thing I hate about the Irish people is this easy acceptance of deception

without a whimper of protest we swapped British oppression for Roman oppression and pretended we liked it. We are a teenage nation with little idea of our real identity.

Brian Shanahan · 06-09-2014 7:00pm

NewCorkLad wrote: »

Children have been known to exaggerate situations, go and talk to them without talk of bullying and threatening and come to a solution

So have teachers, so it may be a good idea to take their words with a grain of salt. Ask around to see if the particular teacher is a holy-roller first.

Brian Shanahan · 06-09-2014 7:39pm

TheQuietFella wrote: »

You're an atheist sending their child to a catholic school & you have an issue with a staff member defending their sacred beliefs? Get a f**king grip.
You shouldn't have sent her there in the first place!

You forget that the state forces every school to have a religious ethos, and forces them into "faith formation" activities (i.e. religious indoctrination). Over 96% of Irish state-funded primary school are rcc ethos, a proportion far in excess off the c.20% of the country that are catholic, assuming the current government position re religion in education is sensible (it ****ing well is not).

So in many cases an arreligious or irreligious parent has no other choice but grin and bear it when deciding how to get the best education for their child and send them to a school where the child will be force fed religious bs for the next eight years (and probably the next six after that).

Gerry T · 08-09-2014 1:47pm

My kids primary had protestant, catholic and non-faith kids. All the kids got on great together, birthday parties, play-dates, etc... So I'm sure you kid will enjoy her days in school. Once the questions from her class mates are answered they will move on and accept her position.
You sound like your dealing well with this situation and best of luck with it.

GreeBo · 08-09-2014 1:53pm

If a teacher did that to my child I would crucif....oh.

Its a Catholic School....Catholic.
I think the clue is in the name, what were you expecting them to do?

Would you send your child to a gaelschoil but not expect them to speak Irish?

Delirium · 08-09-2014 2:00pm

GreeBo wrote: »

If a teacher did that to my child I would crucif....oh.

Its a Catholic School....Catholic.
I think the clue is in the name, what were you expecting them to do?

Would you send your child to a gaelschoil but not expect them to speak Irish?

Hardly the same thing, unless they teach "Catholic maths/history/geography" etc.

In a lot of places, the choice is Catholic school or no school. I know I'd send a kid to a Catholic school if it was that or no school.

EunanMac · 08-09-2014 2:15pm

Gerry T wrote: »

My kids primary had protestant, catholic and non-faith kids. All the kids got on great together, birthday parties, play-dates, etc... So I'm sure you kid will enjoy her days in school. Once the questions from her class mates are answered they will move on and accept her position.
You sound like your dealing well with this situation and best of luck with it.

Presumably you informed them she was a Protestant beforehand, so there was no confusion where they were mistakenly left teaching her Catholic beliefs.

Gumbi · 08-09-2014 2:31pm

GreeBo wrote: »

If a teacher did that to my child I would crucif....oh.

Its a Catholic School....Catholic.
I think the clue is in the name, what were you expecting them to do?

Would you send your child to a gaelschoil but not expect them to speak Irish?

You realise that over 90% of primary schools in Ireland are Catholic? Virtually no one has a choice in this matter.

Gerry T · 08-09-2014 2:35pm

EunanMac wrote: »

Presumably you informed them she was a Protestant beforehand, so there was no confusion where they were mistakenly left teaching her Catholic beliefs.

It wasn't an issue with the school. They gave precedence for protestant kids but then took all others. Their policy was the children could sit out their protestant religion lesson in another class room which worked without any problems.

I'm from a catholic upbringing but in all conscience can't follow the catholic church because of my catholic beliefs. I don't see how any catholic can follow the church and call themselves a catholic.

My children can make up their own minds, there only 13 so too young to be trying to decide, but they get a balanced view of religion and it's up to themselves.

Cabaal · 08-09-2014 2:36pm

Gumbi wrote: »

You realise that over 90% of primary schools in Ireland are Catholic? Virtually no one has a choice in this matter.

Generally people that make such flippant off the cuff remarks think they are making some of smart remarks don't understand the actual reality of the situation when it comes to schools in Ireland and the fact that even the UN has criticized Ireland for this reality.

hinault · 08-09-2014 4:26pm

bajer101 wrote: »

My seven year old daughter moved to a Catholic school from an Educate Together school for logistical reasons. I'm a single Dad and am an atheist. I have always told my daughter that she can believe whatever she wants but that it would be better to wait until she is older to make her mind up as it is a very complicated subject.

I knew that moving her to a Catholic school would involve some religious teaching, but I thought that in this day and age it would be minimal. The trouble started on the first day when the class were colouring in a picture of Jesus and my daughter announced that she didn't believe in God. Her teacher told her that if said that again that she would be sent back to her old school! The other kids also seemed to gang up on her a bit over this. Over the next few days the subject came up again and she was sent to the principal's office and the principal told her that she had to believe in God!

My daughter is very upset over this and has feigned sickness to avoid going to school and last night she even disabled the alarm on my phone so that I wouldn't wake up in time (her plan worked!).

I am not sure what to do about this. The way I see it I have a few options.
1. Take her out of the school straight away as it is obviously very religiously oriented and there will be no good outcome if she is left there.
2. Get my daughter to play along and go with the flow.
3. Talk to the teacher and principal and try to come up with a reasonable solution.
4. Go all out nuclear and kick up a huge fuss and demand that my daughter be allowed opt out of all religious activity.

Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated.

Find another school for your daughter.

Cabaal · 08-09-2014 4:30pm

hinault wrote: »

Find another school for your daughter.

Nice well thought out comment
:rolleyes:

just curious,
In a situation where the nearest none catholic ethos school is 50miles away whats your solution for a childs education?

bajer101 · 08-09-2014 4:32pm

hinault wrote: »

Find another school for your daughter.

No thanks. I think I'll avail of my constitutional right and have my daughter opt out of religious education in a school that I contribute taxes to.

Gumbi · 08-09-2014 5:16pm

hinault wrote: »

Find another school for your daughter.

Honestly can people really be so ignorant of the reality? More than 90% of this country's primary school are Catholic...

vibe666 · 08-09-2014 5:35pm

Gumbi wrote: »

Honestly can people really be so ignorant of the reality? More than 90% of this country's primary school are Catholic...

unfortunately yes.

and unfortunately, with the way things currently are, for a lot of people, it's a choice of either baptise your kids to get them into a local catholic school, or be left to drive them miles out of your way to your nearest ET school, if you can even get them into one at all as they are all massively over-subscribed because people took a stand and didn't get their kids baptised and then realised how fooked they were with pretty much zero choice of schools locally without a baptismal cert because they didn't have their kids registered at the time they were born (yes, it can be THAT bad).

This is EXACTLY the reason so many people take issue with the census figures being used to dictate educational spending. until there is an accurate list showing how much of the population are practicing catholics who actually want their kids to attend a catholic school, rather than those people who have to baptise their kids just to get them into a decent local school just because it happens to be catholic (as most are).

I've been to several christenings in the last few years and not a single one of them was for practicing catholics. every single one was solely to get their kids into a decent local school.

Brian Shanahan · 08-09-2014 6:50pm

Gumbi wrote: »

Honestly can people really be so ignorant of the reality? More than 90% of this country's primary school are Catholic...

This is hinault we are talking about. I get the feeling that he thinks one must be a holy-roller catholic before they can get an Irish passport or vote in elections.

Cabaal · 08-09-2014 7:17pm

vibe666 wrote: »

This is EXACTLY the reason so many people take issue with the census figures being used to dictate educational spending. until there is an accurate list showing how much of the population are practicing catholics who actually want their kids to attend a catholic school,

Based on the church's own numbers, the numbers going to mass range from 20-30%. So out of the percentage that say they are catholic on the census only 20-30% of those are actually practicing in reality.

Compare that to close to 90% in the 1970's.

Personally I think the solution to all of this is to copy Germany, introduce the church tax.

We can of course do an extra twist with it so it can be used to fund the church's, compensate abuse victims and fund catholic ethos schools so the Irish Tax payer as a whole don't have to pay for catholic run schools anymore (no more state funded catholic ethos schools),

Its all very simple and even the Vatican likes the idea of a church tax...though they may not be happy about it being used to compensate abuse victims

.

Of course people won't like the extra tax and the majority of people who don't have kids will likely be very unhappy about having their church tax going to fund schools so they may opt out in droves. This will of course likely lead to a shortfall in funding for schools.

Schools that want to receive funding from the Irish State again should have to remove their catholic ethos status,

Of course this won't stop communion etc being done....church's can choose to use the church tax to setup "Sunday Schools" and encourage parents to actively get involved in raising their child in the catholic faith....you know....like they agreed to when they splashed water on the child

Brian Shanahan · 08-09-2014 7:36pm

Cabaal wrote: »

Based on the church's own numbers, the numbers going to mass range from 20-30%. So out of the percentage that say they are catholic on the census only 20-30% of those are actually practicing in reality.

And of that 20-30% 10.1% don't believe in god, so they are only going to mass out of habit for definite. And I'm sure that there are a lot more that if pressed would also only be going out of habit, not out of any strongly held belief.

Turtwig · 08-09-2014 7:58pm

Mod: Please leave out the personal stuff.

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

This is hinault we are talking about. I get the feeling that he thinks one must be a holy-roller catholic before they can get an Irish passport or vote in elections.

hinault · 08-09-2014 9:19pm

Cabaal wrote: »

Based on the church's own numbers, the numbers going to mass range from 20-30%. So out of the percentage that say they are catholic on the census only 20-30% of those are actually practicing in reality.

Compare that to close to 90% in the 1970's.

Personally I think the solution to all of this is to copy Germany, introduce the church tax.

We can of course do an extra twist with it so it can be used to fund the church's, compensate abuse victims and fund catholic ethos schools so the Irish Tax payer as a whole don't have to pay for catholic run schools anymore (no more state funded catholic ethos schools),

Its all very simple and even the Vatican likes the idea of a church tax...though they may not be happy about it being used to compensate abuse victims .

Of course people won't like the extra tax and the majority of people who don't have kids will likely be very unhappy about having their church tax going to fund schools so they may opt out in droves. This will of course likely lead to a shortfall in funding for schools.

Schools that want to receive funding from the Irish State again should have to remove their catholic ethos status,

Of course this won't stop communion etc being done....church's can choose to use the church tax to setup "Sunday Schools" and encourage parents to actively get involved in raising their child in the catholic faith....you know....like they agreed to when they splashed water on the child

Current expenditure and capital expenditure with the "education industry" annually runs in to billions - billions of tax revenue that is.

If the Department of Education were so minded, it could easily afford to build numerous "non-Catholic ethos" schools.

My own guess is that there isn't sufficient demand - among parents - to send their offspring to such schools and they are in fact more than happy to send their children to Catholic-ethos schools.

bajer101 · 08-09-2014 9:25pm

hinault wrote: »

Find another school for your daughter.

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

This is hinault we are talking about. I get the feeling that he thinks one must be a holy-roller catholic before they can get an Irish passport or vote in elections.

Turtwig wrote: »

Mod: Please leave out the personal stuff.

Could I ask that people also bear in mind that this is my seven year old daughter that they are commenting on and that this is very personal to me. Throwing out a simplistic, unhelpful reply while obviously not reading the thread can be quite hurtful to someone who is dealing with a genuinely traumatic issue.

EunanMac · 08-09-2014 10:01pm

bajer101 wrote: »

Could I ask that people also bear in mind that this is my seven year old daughter that they are commenting on and that this is very personal to me. Throwing out a simplistic, unhelpful reply while obviously not reading the thread can be quite hurtful to someone who is dealing with a genuinely traumatic issue.

Did you explain to the school yet she's not to be taught Catholicism ?

Fluffybums · 08-09-2014 10:16pm

Odd question, has anyone taken this issue to the European court of human rights. Freedom of worship and belief (or not) is surely enshrined in the human rights legislation, that freedom would include not forcing anyone and particularly a child to 'believe' what another person says they have to. I would also say that the teacher and principle were guilty of bullying - what is the schools bullying policy - hoist them by their own petard.

Mind you the Irish constitution is probably used as an excuse to do nothing and change nothing and exempt the school from complying with the above human rights.

bajer101 · 08-09-2014 10:32pm

EunanMac wrote: »

Did you explain to the school yet she's not to be taught Catholicism ?

Yeah. I sent the Principal an email explaining the situation. I kept the tone of the email very conciliatory and just basically said that my daughter would not be making her Communion and that she was to be excluded from all Religious education. I explained all the reasons behind this decision and was in no way aggressive or adversarial. I haven't received a reply yet.

I also explained to my daughter that she no longer has take part in any Religious education, but that there is no need for her to tell anyone that she doesn't believe in God - that it's none of their business. Hopefully the next stage will just be how the school arranges this. I have a few age appropriate science books ordered from Amazon that she can read if she has to stay in the class while the others are taught Religion. I'd like to think that it will be sorted reasonably, but the way this has been dealt with so far leads me to suspect that her teacher mightn't like this turn of events. But now that the school are aware of my wishes, if there is the slightest hint of any discriminatory treatment I will take whatever action is necessary.

The situation is further complicated by having to inform her mother about this. While she lives in a different country and hasn't seen her in almost three years, I was obliged to tell her about all this today. Although I have sole custody, mothers cannot have guardian rights removed (except in cases of adoption), so that adds another layer of complexity to the situation. Guardian's have a say over a child's Religious upbringing and she is a born again Christian so I'm expecting this to be used against me.

I'll update this thread with what happens.

Gumbi · 08-09-2014 11:01pm

hinault wrote: »

Current expenditure and capital expenditure with the "education industry" annually runs in to billions - billions of tax revenue that is.

If the Department of Education were so minded, it could easily afford to build numerous "non-Catholic ethos" schools.

My own guess is that there isn't sufficient demand - among parents - to send their offspring to such schools and they are in fact more than happy to send their children to Catholic-ethos schools.

Just because something is the way it is doesn't mean it's right. I imagine there is quite a bit of the Irish attitude of inwardly knowing a problem exists but outwardly pretending it doesn't and adhering to the status quo.

The state sponsored default should not be to favour Catholic children regardless of whether they are the majority OR the minority. It should be irrelevant.

Education should be freely available to all and saying "there's not enough demand for it" is not good enough.

bajer101 · 08-09-2014 11:06pm

hinault wrote: »

Current expenditure and capital expenditure with the "education industry" annually runs in to billions - billions of tax revenue that is.

If the Department of Education were so minded, it could easily afford to build numerous "non-Catholic ethos" schools.

My own guess is that there isn't sufficient demand - among parents - to send their offspring to such schools and they are in fact more than happy to send their children to Catholic-ethos schools.

I've discussed this with my seven year old daughter and how it pertains to her being told that she has to believe in God and she suggests that you start your own thread.

Pwindedd · 08-09-2014 11:22pm

As a non irish parent, I find the whole way that state funded education is organised around the religion of the parents is actually quite bizarre. And let's be honest - no child of primary school entry age has the first clue about what religion they actually are. Local schools should serve local families, that's about the limit of screening that should apply IMO. My daughter is almost out of the school system, and I sincerely hope that when her time comes to choose a school for her children, she has more options than Baptise or Commute.

Nomis21 · 08-09-2014 11:34pm

I am also non Irish single parent. I can't understand the stranglehold the Catholic Church still has on the education system in this country.

It is plainly unhealthy for the minds of our children.

realdanbreen · 08-09-2014 11:54pm

Nomis21 wrote: »

I am also non Irish single parent. I can't understand the stranglehold the Catholic Church still has on the education system in this country.

It is plainly unhealthy for the minds of our children.

Have you any knowledge of the history of the irish education system and the role the catholic church played in educating our children,against all the odds and the oppression we were under. And no, I don,t need to be told about the sex abusive clergy- bear in mind that 90% of child sex abuse is carried out by the childs relations or family "friends"

hinault · 09-09-2014 12:11am

bajer101 wrote: »

I've discussed this with my seven year old daughter and how it pertains to her being told that she has to believe in God and she suggests that you start your own thread.

Be sure to mention to your daughter that the suggestion I posted and which you discussed, was in reply to another posters earlier point.

vibe666 · 09-09-2014 12:13am

realdanbreen wrote: »

Have you any knowledge of the history of the irish education system and the role the catholic church played in educating our children,against all the odds and the oppression we were under. And no, I don,t need to be told about the sex abusive clergy- bear in mind that 90% of child sex abuse is carried out by the childs relations or family "friends"

so only 10% of child sex abuse in ireland is carried out by the clergy?

phew, that's a relief, what was everything thinking making such a big fuss about it all and the head of the church in ireland resigning and making a big apology and all that nonsense, sure it was hardly worth them even mentioning it. :rolleyes:

bajer101 · 09-09-2014 12:14am

realdanbreen wrote: »

Have you any knowledge of the history of the irish education system and the role the catholic church played in educating our children,against all the odds and the oppression we were under. And no, I don,t need to be told about the sex abusive clergy- bear in mind that 90% of child sex abuse is carried out by the childs relations or family "friends"

hinault wrote: »

Be sure to mention to your daughter that the suggestion I posted and which you discussed, was in reply to another posters earlier point.

I did. She wants the 10% of time that is wasted teaching Religion to be spent teaching punctuation.

hinault · 09-09-2014 12:16am

Gumbi wrote: »

Just because something is the way it is doesn't mean it's right. I imagine there is quite a bit of the Irish attitude of inwardly knowing a problem exists but outwardly pretending it doesn't and adhering to the status quo.

The state sponsored default should not be to favour Catholic children regardless of whether they are the majority OR the minority. It should be irrelevant.

Education should be freely available to all and saying "there's not enough demand for it" is not good enough.

The parents of pupils appear to accept, as you put it, the status quo.

Education being free for all?
There is no such thing as free education anywhere in the first world.

hinault · 09-09-2014 12:17am

bajer101 wrote: »

I did.

Well done.

Daughter forced to believe in God

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