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Daughter forced to believe in God

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  • 04-09-2014 3:41pm
    #1
    bajer101
    Registered Users Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭


    My seven year old daughter moved to a Catholic school from an Educate Together school for logistical reasons. I'm a single Dad and am an atheist. I have always told my daughter that she can believe whatever she wants but that it would be better to wait until she is older to make her mind up as it is a very complicated subject.

    I knew that moving her to a Catholic school would involve some religious teaching, but I thought that in this day and age it would be minimal. The trouble started on the first day when the class were colouring in a picture of Jesus and my daughter announced that she didn't believe in God. Her teacher told her that if said that again that she would be sent back to her old school! The other kids also seemed to gang up on her a bit over this. Over the next few days the subject came up again and she was sent to the principal's office and the principal told her that she had to believe in God!

    My daughter is very upset over this and has feigned sickness to avoid going to school and last night she even disabled the alarm on my phone so that I wouldn't wake up in time (her plan worked!).

    I am not sure what to do about this. The way I see it I have a few options.
    1. Take her out of the school straight away as it is obviously very religiously oriented and there will be no good outcome if she is left there.
    2. Get my daughter to play along and go with the flow.
    3. Talk to the teacher and principal and try to come up with a reasonable solution.
    4. Go all out nuclear and kick up a huge fuss and demand that my daughter be allowed opt out of all religious activity.

    Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated.


    MOD NOTE:
    This thread has gaot a lot of attention, unfortunately from some posters who aren't interested in the facts and only with agendas. Please take a look at the relevant beats in this post before jumping in with two feet.
    Kthxbye
    Dades

    Mod Note deux:
    OP has given his latest update here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92160833&postcount=935


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    #2
    Tombo2001
    Registered Users Posts: 6,470 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    In this day and age, she won't be the only child whose parents think its a load of nonsence.

    Talk to the other parents, and see if a bunch of you can have a 'chat' with the teacher.

    Dont want to be the only one taking on the teacher, and leave your child a bit exposed.

    I would definitely challenge it though, its outrageous to be sending a child up to the principal for this reason.


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    #3
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users Posts: 30,186 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    Talk to the teacher and principal!


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    #4
    Gerry T
    Registered Users Posts: 1,413 ✭✭✭Gerry T


    FFS, unreal. I think I would talk to the principal and teacher. Ask can they respect your belief (or non-belief) and that your choice is your daughter will make her mind up without undue influence. That she will respect that people do believe but that she shouldn't be threatened.


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    #5
    Tombo2001
    Registered Users Posts: 6,470 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    It would be interesting to hear from parents who have challenged schools on this. I'd agree also that I am a bit taken aback by the amount of religious education, and its something I would like to address.


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    #6
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    OP, you need to talk to the school about this as its affecting your child.

    Its not good enough for the school to bully your child into belief in a god that they/you don't believe in, completely unacceptable. You need to make it clear that their actions (sending to the principal etc) is bang out of order and won't be tolerated. At the end of the day they would not treat a Muslim etc in this manner.


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    #7
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,326 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i would not describe option 4 as the nuclear option, but the most sane and sensible one (coupled with the dialgue approach in option 3)?


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    #8
    NewCorkLad
    Registered Users Posts: 957 ✭✭✭NewCorkLad


    I would go with option 3. The teacher/principal might just think your daughter is acting up and trying to be funny. Try talking to them and explaining the situation before jumping to any conclusions. Then go nuclear if they wont help.


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    #9
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Talk to the teacher and principal first - calmly. Kids can exaggerate things so it may not have gone down exactly as she said. If they aren't able to respect your child's lack of religion I would report them to the DOE. That approach can't be allowed to go unchallenged.


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    #10
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,326 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    one simple way of phrasing it - ask the principal if (she) believes whether the school should have a greater say than her parent in what religion she does (or does not) follow.
    if the principal pushes it, you can tell the principal you and your daughter are converting to judaism, and ask whether they are going to force your daughter to leave the school because she's jewish.


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    #11
    techdiver
    Registered Users Posts: 3,070 ✭✭✭techdiver


    You have a constitutional right to opt your child out of religious instruction.

    I would go option 4, but that's just me. :D


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    #12
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,284 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    School handled that bad but you also should explain to your daughter that the other children have beliefs that she should be careful about. My wife runs a creche and one of the childrens parents doesn't believe in christmas and told the child that Santa doesn't exist who then announced it to the other 3 year olds and my wife had trouble with the mother who claimed she doesn't lie to her daughter. Probably best to talk to the teacher and make arrangements to have your child miss religious classes etc.


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    #13
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    OP,
    I'm assuming they knew your child was no catholic when you enrolled them? Also do they have a baptism cert from the catholic church?


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    #14
    Tombo2001
    Registered Users Posts: 6,470 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    Cabaal wrote: »
    OP,
    I'm assuming they knew your child was no catholic when you enrolled them? Also do they have a baptism cert from the catholic church?

    Not sure why you would assume that.

    Every tom dick and harry in the country knows that if you want to get your kid into an Irish primary school (or at least most primary schools) you need a baptismal cert to be confident of a place.

    Do you think parents say "this is just a box ticker folks, we dont really believe" when they are delivering the cert in.


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    #15
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,713 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Talk to the principal and teacher.

    It really isn't an appropriate way to deal with a pupil by stating if she "said that again that she would be sent back to her old school". Especially if it fosters an attitude in her peers that it's okay to bully her.

    The child is only 7 and neither the teacher or principal should be bullying her for her difference of opinion regarding deities. The teacher should have just directed your daughter to get on with her work rather than threatening her in class.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #16
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Tombo2001 wrote: »
    Not sure why you would assume that.

    Every tom dick and harry in the country knows that if you want to get your kid into an Irish primary school (or at least most primary schools) you need a baptismal cert to be confident of a place.

    Not all parents choose to enter their kids into the catholic faith and then later claim their kid is not catholic
    :rolleyes:

    People that baptise their kids just for school placements and then claim the catholic faith is a load of nonsense are part of the reason why the state don't bother changing legislation regarding schools being allowed to reject students and teachers on religious grounds.
    :mad:

    The only way this awful situation can be changed long term is for parents to take a stand, the more the better. It'll benefit atheist and people of all other faiths at the end of the day.

    I understand some parents worry about school placements but in all honesty if you baptise your child you agree to raise them in the catholic faith, its then laughable to enter them into a school system claiming they are catholic and once they get into it to claim they are not catholic.


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    #17
    NewCorkLad
    Registered Users Posts: 957 ✭✭✭NewCorkLad


    SW wrote: »
    Talk to the principal and teacher.

    It really isn't an appropriate way to deal with a pupil by stating if she "said that again that she would be sent back to her old school". Especially if it fosters an attitude in her peers that it's okay to bully her.

    The child is only 7 and neither the teacher or principal should be bullying her for her difference of opinion regarding deities. The teacher should have just directed your daughter to get on with her work rather than threatening her in class.

    Children have been known to exaggerate situations, go and talk to them without talk of bullying and threatening and come to a solution


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    #18
    sheesh
    Registered Users Posts: 4,080 ✭✭✭sheesh


    first port of call would be teachers and principal.
    remember too that tolerance goes both ways in this situation. You moved your child to a catholic school they are going to want to know why you moved her there so do not come off as being anti religion. You're touching base with them to see if there is anything that can be done about the 'current issue'. make a determination as to what you want to do then once you get the real lie of the land.

    If they are uber catholic (unlikely) and think she should suck it up maybe you should re-consider the logistics of getting your daughter to the educate together school.


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    #19
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,713 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    NewCorkLad wrote: »
    Children have been known to exaggerate situations, go and talk to them without talk of bullying and threatening and come to a solution

    Disagree. The nature of the problem is that the daughter has said she is being bullied and threatened by staff. I don't see how that problem can be addressed without mentioning it.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #20
    wrt40
    Closed Accounts Posts: 422 ✭✭wrt40


    Assuming you lied and told them your daughter is catholic in order to get her into the school and possibly even went as far as getting your child baptised in order to get a place in a catholic school, then I would suggest you keep up that lie and get your daughter to play along and pretend to be a good catholic. It's easily done, we've all had to do it. Mumble when you are saying your prayers etc. It's the price you pay for enrolling in a Catholic school. I'm not saying its right or wrong, I'm just stating the facts. I'd imagine they're feeling a bit pissed off and cheated. There's no use lying to get in and then turning around once you're through the doors and saying ha ha I lied I'm not really a Catholic and I think you're all brain washed nutters.

    Problem is you've already been exposed, so some extra lying may be needed such as saying your daughter had doubts but you've spoken to her and all is fine now.


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    #21
    Tombo2001
    Registered Users Posts: 6,470 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    wrt40 wrote: »
    Assuming you lied and told them your daughter is catholic in order to get her into the school and possibly even went as far as getting your child baptised in order to get a place in a catholic school, then I would suggest you keep up that lie and get your daughter to play along and pretend to be a good catholic. It's easily done, we've all had to do it. Mumble when you are saying your prayers etc. It's the price you pay for enrolling in a Catholic school. I'm not saying its right or wrong, I'm just stating the facts. I'd imagine they're feeling a bit pissed off and cheated. There's no use lying to get in and then turning around once you're through the doors and saying ha ha I lied I'm not really a Catholic and I think you're all brain washed nutters.

    Problem is you've already been exposed, so some extra lying may be needed such as saying your daughter had doubts but you've spoken to her and all is fine now.

    Ridiculous.

    The vast majority of parents are "lying" if thats the case, if the empty congregations save for the 80+ brigade is anything to go by.


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    #22
    Gerry T
    Registered Users Posts: 1,413 ✭✭✭Gerry T


    Schools have to be taken out of control of the church....there now, that's going to set things off nicely !

    Principal should have more cop-on, anyone with an grain of sense would know not to talk that way to a child.


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    #23
    Roquentin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Roquentin


    in this day and age i would have thought this indoctrination of children would have ceased. In the words of father ted ****in' hell. Real bad form by the teacher. would have thought he/she was old enough to have common sense. then again with the isis beheading people in the name of islam, sadly things still have a long way to go. If it were me id get the child to another school and name and shame the school


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    #24
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,713 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    wrt40 wrote: »
    Assuming you lied and told them your daughter is catholic in order to get her into the school and possibly even went as far as getting your child baptised in order to get a place in a catholic school, then I would suggest you keep up that lie and get your daughter to play along and pretend to be a good catholic. It's easily done, we've all had to do it. Mumble when you are saying your prayers etc. It's the price you pay for enrolling in a Catholic school. I'm not saying its right or wrong, I'm just stating the facts. I'd imagine they're feeling a bit pissed off and cheated. There's no use lying to get in and then turning around once you're through the doors and saying ha ha I lied I'm not really a Catholic and I think you're all brain washed nutters.

    Problem is you've already been exposed, so some extra lying may be needed such as saying your daughter had doubts but you've spoken to her and all is fine now.

    "Look you lied to get your child into the Catholic school. But your subterfuge has been found out. Best dial up the deception. Make sure to get the daughter on board btw."

    So bascially lie and tell the daughter that it now isn't okay to believe in whatever she likes. That she must now lie to her peers and teachers in order to get by.

    That's a really grown-up way to tackle the problem.:rolleyes:

    *headdesk*

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #25
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,842 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Humanity didn't progress by appeasing bullies.

    BTW OP, why did you choose to move your child into a Catholic school? Was the commute to the ET school too long?


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    #26
    wrt40
    Closed Accounts Posts: 422 ✭✭wrt40


    Tombo2001 wrote: »
    Ridiculous.

    The vast majority of parents are "lying" if thats the case, if the empty congregations save for the 80+ brigade is anything to go by.

    I'm not saying I agree with the situation but the fact is if you lie and pretend to be catholic to get into a catholic school then you can't expect them to be happy about it. Especially if you have been baptised, in their eyes you are straying and losing your faith and it is their duty as a teacher of a Catholic school to get you back on the path of enlightenment.

    I'm not saying I agree with it, but that's the fact of the situation. the OPs daughter made a mistake, she's a child or teenager, it happens. It'll be tricky to get out of it now but I think going in and announcing that you're an atheist and they better back off with the religion is ill advised considering the lengths people go to to lie about it.


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    #27
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,713 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    wrt40 wrote: »
    I'm not saying I agree with the situation but the fact is if you lie and pretend to be catholic to get into a catholic school then you can't expect them to be happy about it. Especially if you have been baptised, in their eyes you are straying and losing your faith and it is their duty as a teacher of a Catholic school to get you back on the path of enlightenment.

    I'm not saying I agree with it, but that's the fact of the situation. the OPs daughter made a mistake, she's a child or teenager, it happens. It'll be tricky to get out of it now but I think going in and announcing that you're an atheist and they better back off with the religion is ill advised considering the lengths people go to to lie about it.

    Where did the OP say they did this? Does it apply to this situation?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #28
    Roquentin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Roquentin


    burn the school down


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    #29
    wrt40
    Closed Accounts Posts: 422 ✭✭wrt40


    SW wrote: »
    Where did the OP say they did this? Does it apply to this situation?

    I had started by assuming this is the situation. Maybe op should clarify. If she's attending as one of the 5% allocated for non Catholics then that's another story.


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    #30
    wrt40
    Closed Accounts Posts: 422 ✭✭wrt40


    SW wrote: »
    "Look you lied to get your child into the Catholic school. But your subterfuge has been found out. Best dial up the deception. Make sure to get the daughter on board btw."

    So bascially lie and tell the daughter that it now isn't okay to believe in whatever she likes. That she must now lie to her peers and teachers in order to get by.

    That's a really grown-up way to tackle the problem.:rolleyes:

    *headdesk*

    OK, not lie but just don't go around announcing your an atheist. Let the dust settle and just play along from now on. It's a Catholic school and if you lied to get in then what else do you expect?


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    #31
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,713 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    wrt40 wrote: »
    I had started by assuming this is the situation. Maybe op should clarify. If she's attending as one of the 5% allocated for non Catholics then that's another story.
    :confused:

    Catholic schools aren't allocated for Catholics exclusively.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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