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The Raid 2

13

Comments

  • Posts: 15,814 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I hate this argument, because it's misrepresenting what the complaints actually are (and I'm speaking generally here, as I haven't had a chance to watch The Raid 2 yet). If a writer or director forces me to sit through an hour or more of perfunctory plot to get to the main attraction, then I haven't done anything wrong, said writer / director has. There's no reason whatsoever that the plot and the action can't be up to scratch. And if that's not achievable, focus on one or the other and play to your strengths.

    I've seen a few comparisons between this and Drug War - that's a strong example of a film that delivers on the memorable action will also delivering a strong (if slightly convoluted) narrative with actual satire and social commentary. The film earns its action setpieces, but also doesn't feel like an inconvenience when the bullets aren't flying. Or something like Evangelion - amazing action, but also fascinating themes and storytelling. Compare it to Pacific Rim (and I'm well aware that film has plenty of supporters, this is all IMO of course) - there's an utterly vapid, poorly told story I have to endure for lengthy periods of time before getting to the good stuff. It's a big, big ask for the reward (and even that was minimal, again IMO). To me, that's what differentiates it as a bad film with some good bits as opposed to a good film with some bad bits. I doubt anyone would praise The Raid 1's plotting - but there was a film that knew its limitations, and focused on what it did well while ensuring the film wasn't simply a relentless series of action scenes. Even without having seen the second film yet, I can see how people feel an epic scale is ill-fitting especially if it isn't handled with particular aplomb - not to dismiss Evans' ambitions to make something a little bit more engaged (it's certainly admirable) but The Raid 1 was about as impressively no-nonsense as action films get, with just enough focus on characters and story to keep everything moving.

    Even dumb action films require some sort of plot - to ensure it's not all just an adrenaline rush, and make the action mean something (or just go '**** it' and be Crank, but Crank is Crank!). But that doesn't excuse bad storytelling, and if a director is going to make me sit through a heavily plotted film then it's their duty to make it interesting, not for us to ignore or forgive any failures in that regard even if the action completely delivers. I look forward to finding out myself how Evans has managed it tomorrow.

    I'm basing my thoughts on what I've heard from friends and the general consensus is that the plot is simplistic and familiar yet doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I'm not excusing any film the lack of a plot though I am happy to concede that sometimes a film doesn't need an intricate or layered story and as such I'm happy to forgive a film such as the Raid 2 it's shortcomings in that department.

    Pacific Rim failed because the story was so generic and the action wasn't all that enticing. There was a sense of spectacle but after a few minutes it jest felt overtly familiar and the themes storytelling were dull. It was pretty much Robot Jox with a nicer sheen.

    The Raid worked because it didn't need a complicated story, it's strongest point was the linear but well defined plot. There was a sense of urgency to it that helped paper over the cracks. Re-watching the Raid and I don't throw ir on for anything other than entertainment, I'm not watching it for the storytelling or the performances but rather the set pieces. As such I can forgive the sequel if the plotting is haphazard and familiar as long as the set pieces are well handled and impress.

    The action genre is one that's bereft of genuinely interesting story telling. It's a shame that it's so creatively ignored and that our expectations can be met with a little well shot action, acting that isn't wooden and a plot that's even the smallest bit interesting.

    I re-watched The Joshua Tree a few weeks back and was surprised by how much time was invested in the plot. It was refreshing and added a certain heft to the action when it did occur. Lundgren is actually one of the few action stars who invests a little time in plotting his films, the ones he wrote and direct himself are generally more interested in what drives the characters than cheap spectacle. I'm curious as to see what he does with his upcoming films with Tony Jaa as alongside Evans, Lundgren is one of the more interesting people working in the genre.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,464 ✭✭✭e_e


    I'm definitely going back in the next week, the film packed such a wallop that I'm still processing a day later. Honestly the only niggles to me were in a second act that had to basically reset the story to 0 and introduce a new cast of characters. Some pacing issues there for sure but crucially it all paid off tenfold for me.

    But those first and last acts, ****ing wow. The way Evans builds up to the first fight is nothing short of masterful and that section of the film has such a remarkable climax, throwing the audience into the muck both literally and metaphorically. I struggle to think of an American action film that had such a visceral effect on me. It seems that some here were mixed over the film but I felt so elated after it ended.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 11,076 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fysh


    Having now watched this, I can understand some of the disappointment, because you really have to judge two aspects of the film separately and evaluate how much weight you're going to ascribe to each.

    On the one hand, you've got the action sequences - while they don't dominate the running time as much as in the first film, they're easily as inventive and showcasing as much inventiveness as in the first film (albeit with some more obvious visual effects work).

    On the other hand, you've got the sprawling crime story being told along the way - which is functional though fairly familiar territory, but clashes somewhat in pacing terms with the rest of the film. The pace shifts could be forgiven were this story more distinctive or original, but as it stands I felt that rather too much of it was trying for a slow-burn buildup that didn't really work during the second act.

    I wanted a film that recaptured the visceral excitement and pure joy that the first film delivered - and during the first and third acts, The Raid 2 delivered. The second act was a bit disappointing, but not irretrievably so - and certainly not enough to stop me from being glued to my seat for the third act. And I do think that whatever flaws the sequel has, Evans and his team deserve credit for not merely attempting to retread the same territory as the first film (eg "now they're in a 16-floor carpark" or "this time the building is underground" or some such bollockery).

    I may well see this at the cinema a second time, and will definitely be buying a copy on DVD. I suspect it'll be one of those films where the best way to enjoy it will turn out to be a fanedit that trims the fat and better balances the pacing throughout.

    I've gone back and re-read the rogerebert.com review since seeing the film, and I still can't help feel that it's a review which can't discern what the potential audience for this film is looking for in films. (I know everyone has their blind spots, but I find it fascinating that Ebert could give Avatar a 4-star rating and a positively glowing review, and then give The Raid: Redemption a 1-star review and an excoriating review....)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,551 ✭✭✭Goldstein


    Firstly, came for martial arts/action. Got truckloads of both. It'll probably be The Raid 3 before we see anything like that level of uncompromising action again.
    weiland79 wrote: »
    ...and while the scope is admirable it was just to difficult for me to ignore the atrocious acting and paper thin plot. I know it's not meant to be about the story but when so much of the running time is taken up with it, it's hard to ignore.

    I really enjoyed the film but I think criticism of the plot has to be entertained given the ammount of time devoted to it. It's not enough this time to say "it's an action movie so the plot doesn't matter". That's a cop-out given that you probably had well over an hour devoted purely to that plot. With the original so little screen time was given over to it that it would not have been a valid argument then but that doesn't hold for the sequel.

    A parallel I'd draw would be Elite Squad where you had a balls-out action movie the first time and a lot more intricate political elements were added the second time with great success because crucially José Padilha was able to deliver the goods on both counts resulting in a balanced, well rounded film.

    In spite of the meandering nature of the plot and the pacing issues the action scenes were just immensely satisfying with no quarter given to the censors or any attempt to blunt the action to get a lower certificate (I'm looking at you tin man). I thought the cinematography/composition was better in some places than the original but weaker in others - there was lots of cutting during the fights this time compared to part I but they had a much richer visual canvas to play with this time which they made great use of - there were many potential wallpapers in there!

    There are certainly faults and things you could criticise but ultimately I just don't care after all it had to give.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,181 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    Well that was the best movie I've Ever seen


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Myself and the other half saw it yesterday, we both loved it. Thought the director handled adding the story into very well, not perfectly, but well enough not to detract from it too much.

    The action scenes were incredible. There's more innovation in any one of his fight scenes than in most Hollywood "action" films.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,181 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    i belly laughed everytime i saw clawhammer


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭SherlockWatson


    Have people here seen Ong Bak and the protector?


    Tony Jaa is in them, brutal action like The raid.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,181 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    Have people here seen Ong Bak and the protector?


    Tony Jaa is in them, brutal action like The raid.
    love ong bak, haven't seen the protector....still on a high after raid 2...it's like a new level


  • Registered Users Posts: 383 ✭✭ps3lover


    CatInABox wrote: »
    The action scenes were incredible. There's more innovation in any one of his fight scenes than in most Hollywood "action" films.

    I think hollywood would rather gain a 12 rating than even dare attempt anything innovative.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,224 ✭✭✭✭Marty McFly


    Just home from the Light house first time there brilliant cinema will definitely be making it my cinema of choice in future.

    Raid 2 I loved it great soundtrack and amazing action sequences the plot for me is adequate enough help move the movie along. Favorite fight scenes had to be the subway and one in the kitchen at the end both amazing.
    Have people here seen Ong Bak and the protector?


    Tony Jaa is in them, brutal action like The raid.

    Have seen both and to be honest while I like both neither have a patch on The Raid 1 or 2 and we won't even mention the atrocious Ong Bak sequels especially the 3rd one shocking.

    A good martial arts film I love is Chocolate or Donnie Yen's IP Man.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭SherlockWatson


    Just home from the Light house first time there brilliant cinema will definitely be making it my cinema of choice in future.

    Raid 2 I loved it great soundtrack and amazing action sequences the plot for me is adequate enough help move the movie along. Favorite fight scenes had to be the subway and one in the kitchen at the end both amazing.



    Have seen both and to be honest while I like both neither have a patch on The Raid 1 or 2 and we won't even mention the atrocious Ong Bak sequels especially the 3rd one shocking.

    A good martial arts film I love is Chocolate or Donnie Yen's IP Man.

    IP man is brilliant I must say, I enjoyed IP man 2 aswell, not as good as 1, but entertaining none the less, can't wait to see The Raid 2! Anyone here see it in Limerick, what size screen is it on?


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    ps3lover wrote: »
    I think hollywood would rather gain a 12 rating than even dare attempt anything innovative.

    Yes, well, that is the commercial reality of Hollywood. While The Raid 2 has been made with an increased budget in comparison to the original, it would still be chump change for a Hollywood production.

    Realistically, the only way for a Hollywood production to make money is to appeal to the largest audience possible, which means a 12 rating is inevitable really. It's also fair enough in my mind, they have to make their money, but the existence of Hollywood, and the money involved, means that movies like this aren't made in English areas, but have to be forced out countries like Indonesia.

    That's not a bad thing, but it's not a good thing either.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,181 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    anyone feel the physical effects of the movie? Took me a while to get back to earth after it! Some reviewers said the same thing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,464 ✭✭✭e_e


    Funny you should say that, I twisted my shoulder right before seeing the first movie and that pain made me empathize with the characters more. :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,011 ✭✭✭✭titan18


    That was fantastic. Could barely breathe for the last fight scene, finally let my breath out when it was finished.

    I'd agree with people in saying the plot did take away a little bit from the film. It's not bad by any means, but not really the same as the first which is far tighter in control. If I was to sit down and watch one, I'd pick the first, even though imo this has much better fight scenes.

    Also, some of the violence was a bit OTT (Baseball bat guy in particular), and I'd love to see Evans direct a Hollywood film. Never mind that Hollywood would never publish anything like this, but the fight scenes are so wonderfully choreographed that it'd be a shame to not give him more resources.

    For all the violence and everything, I grimaced the most when Rama was pouring the liquid/alcohol over his shoulder after getting attacked by the cops. The burn off that would be horrible


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,738 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    I have to be honest here - I didn't find the first half of the film bland or mediocre, I found quite a bit of it actively awful. There was IMO little sense of pace or rhythm to the way the story was told, just pushing one scene into the next while offering little reason to care what was going on or about any of the characters. After a beautifully composed opening shot, the film defaulted to a dull washed out look, with the occasional burst of light or colour looking confused and out of place. It's as if some locations were chosen for aesthetics alone - hardly a naturally bad thing, I hasten to add (some of the locations look amazing), but I think the film struggles to achieve a consistent look as a result.

    The fight scenes, including that mud fight (Seven Samurai fondness, no doubt, and there's actually a lot of affectionate visual references throughout to the likes of Kurosawa, Kubrick and David Lynch), were damn near ruined by disappointingly excessive shaky cam work. It actually felt even worse than some of the more suspect examples of that dark art, as there was a sort of artificiality to the effect - I'd compare it to a cameraman having an epileptic fit and then the editor covering the results with a computer generated Earthquake filter. Obviously the intention is to get the viewer right in there, and that's a really admirable goal, but IMO they took it way too far and ended up actually distracting me. I don't at all recall The Raid 1 indulging in the effect to anywhere near the same degree. Add to that overzealous editing, and the ultraviolent ballet of the fight scenes felt like it was being sabotaged at every turn. There's clearly a lot of amazing stuff happening, but it's as if the film wants to make it as hard for us to enjoy as possible. The nightclub scene felt like a real missed opportunity, too - an amazing setting, but an overly contrived execution (and I found myself unreasonably irritated by the random appearance of snow :pac:)

    I can pinpoint the moment when my response started to become more favourable: the tightly edited trio of fight scenes*. It's as if Evans suddenly realises how the film should look, and the cinematography and editing take on a sharp new clarity. There's far more dynamism and energy to the film from that point onwards, and like its protagonist has a newfound sense of purpose. The car chase is straight up magnificent, and the extended final gauntlet of fisticuffs, melee weaponry and explosive shotguns is certainly a sight to behold. The film actually looks great at times, in stark contrast to the murky visuals that dominated early on. I still wish Evans trusted his cast and stuntmen enough to not edit everything so hyperactively, though - especially because he shows himself capable of an expert long take on several occasions throughout, usually during the quieter moments. Great ending too - leaving a few threads hanging lest there be a Raid 3, but also pleasingly artful and efficient in presentation. Some of that narrative craftsmanship would have been very welcome early on.

    I would overall consider it something of a disappointment - I really do feel it's overloaded with plotting while never feeling like anything more than a poor Takashi Kitano homage. I don't criticise Evans' ambitions to paint everything on a grander canvas - I love a good yakuza story - I was merely frustrated by the execution. It is also lacking in the strong, clear personalities (especially a definitive antagonist) that made its predecessor feel so gracefully efficient - sadly, Evans seems to dispatch the most interesting characters after offering them a bare minimum of screen time. Even Iwais' character feels lost in the melee at times. But when it does finally burst to life there's some astonishing moments and it's even more brutally physical than the first film. The action, I must stress, certainly needed a steady build up to hit with the force that it eventually does, but a full hour or more of the film is a chore to endure rather than an exciting escalation to a truly tremendous climax.
    *I had to chuckle at the guy in the cinema who opted to choose the start of that brilliant sequence to take a bathroom break :pac:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,181 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    Can't really give out about the camera work especially for the mud scene ...as Evans has explained in interviews, he didn't have the budget....the shots were so tricky that something as simple as mud on the lens could end the whole day...the movie is punching seriously above it's weight. Fair f**s to em.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,464 ✭✭✭e_e


    (and I found myself unreasonably irritated by the random appearance of snow :pac:)
    Aww that bit gave me goosebumps. A wonderfully ethereal touch and a nice bit of serenity right in the middle of 2 fight scenes.

    Didn't notice too much shaky cam myself outside of the big prison set-piece. It sort of worked for me there though, fits into the messiness of the scene and sorta reminded me of Saving Private Ryan's opening sequence. Felt like I was being flung around along with the actors.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,181 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    e_e wrote: »
    Aww that bit gave me goosebumps. A wonderfully ethereal touch and a nice bit of serenity right in the middle of 2 fight scenes.

    Didn't notice too much shaky cam myself outside of the big prison set-piece. It sort of worked for me there though, fits into the messiness of the scene and sorta reminded me of Saving Private Ryan's opening sequence. Felt like I was being flung around along with the actors.
    evans said that mud scene was a nightmare to film!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,207 ✭✭✭longhalloween


    e_e wrote: »
    Aww that bit gave me goosebumps. A wonderfully ethereal touch and a nice bit of serenity right in the middle of 2 fight scenes.

    Didn't notice too much shaky cam myself outside of the big prison set-piece. It sort of worked for me there though, fits into the messiness of the scene and sorta reminded me of Saving Private Ryan's opening sequence. Felt like I was being flung around along with the actors.

    It was a bit strange, as there was no snow in the previous scene where Rama was listening on the conversation.

    Maybe the weather is temperamental in Jakarta.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,738 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    It was a bit strange, as there was no snow in the previous scene where Rama was listening on the conversation.

    Maybe the weather is temperamental in Jakarta.

    Yeah, that's what bothered me: it didn't fit with any of the scenes surrounding it, along with scenes like the fishing scene indicating that the weather was otherwise perfectly fine. Suddenly we're in the depths of winter for a single scene! No doubt it looks good (and I'm sure for many that's the only excuse needed), but it highlighted IMO a lack of consistent world building. A lot of the settings often felt really artificial where there was a more natural progression through the previous film's grimy tower block.

    As for the mud scene, no doubt it was a nightmare to film and that some degree of camera trickery was necessary. Shaky cam is even justified as a technique to get right into the midst of it. But to me Evans merely overcompensated, and I really found it wasted or underemphasised so much of the extravagant choreography. There's excessive shaky cam in a lot of the fights too - it seems to settle down during the second half, or maybe I got more used to it - but the mud scene is worth highlighting IMO as it's already a little tricky to keep track of what's important as everyone becomes mud covered. The ever moving camera simply made it significantly less coherent.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,383 ✭✭✭S.M.B.


    Evans should be commended for his ambition but it's also just as necessary to identify and criticise his shortcomings.

    The jail yard seen is a perfect example. He's on the record as saying that it was a nightmare to shoot. In hindsight does that mean that he should have gone with a more achievable/realistic vision for that scene? Maybe, maybe not?

    The increase in the movies scale and scope is also something that's highly commendable but the execution is by no means flawless. Maybe he could have benefited from having a different set of eyes in the editing room. Large amounts of time are given to certain characters and story lines which don't really pay off in any way.

    My main issue with the movie is a result of the over complex yet incredibly familiar story line. I feel like there's an attempt to ad a certain weight to the happenings which leads to a very inconsistent tone throughout the movie.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,181 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    S.M.B. wrote: »
    Evans should be commended for his ambition but it's also just as necessary to identify and criticise his shortcomings.

    The jail yard seen is a perfect example. He's on the record as saying that it was a nightmare to shoot. In hindsight does that mean that he should have gone with a more achievable/realistic vision for that scene? Maybe, maybe not?

    The increase in the movies scale and scope is also something that's highly commendable but the execution is by no means flawless. Maybe he could have benefited from having a different set of eyes in the editing room. Large amounts of time are given to certain characters and story lines which don't really pay off in any way.

    My main issue with the movie is a result of the over complex yet incredibly familiar story line. I feel like there's an attempt to ad a certain weight to the happenings which leads to a very inconsistent tone throughout the movie.
    certain things were left open in the film to make way for The raid 3, which branches off from somewhere IN the raid 2


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,738 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    certain things were left open in the film to make way for The raid 3, which branches off from somewhere IN the raid 2

    Well there's only going to be a limited opportunity in a sequel to further develop a lot of the underdeveloped characters, since most of them have been 'retired' in no uncertain terms :pac: I did like the 'cliffhanger', if you could call it that - it leaves some strands open, but still feels like a satisfying conclusion to this film. It's certainly not 'incomplete'. However, I'd completely agree with S.M.B. that a lot of time is spent with characters, and yet they feel wasted. When
    Eka was suddenly highlighted
    as a character of major importance, it felt jarring as he'd effectively been a non-entity up until that point. There's hints of the interesting internal conflicts going on inside Rama, but there's nothing but a bare minimum of an attempt to flesh that out.
    Uco is a weak antagonist
    , with murky motivations and characterisation. Hammer Girl and Baseball Guy feel particularly underutilised -
    their final battle with Rama
    would feel far weightier if we'd even had a scene or two more to develop their supposed partnership.

    All this, yet the film does spend something close to a majority of its running time devoted to plot and characters. It's not hard to imagine that the story would have been engaging if Evans had have spent less time fabricating convoluted gangster politics, and more time defining and exploring his characters.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,464 ✭✭✭e_e


    Even better on a second viewing for me. The story seemed to flow a lot smoother and I wasn't as impatient about the non-action scenes, knowing that I was never more than 5 or 10 minutes away from some of the immense choreography again. I love how it bucks the modern action movie trend of laying all its cards on the table within 5 minutes and then having nowhere else to go too.

    This is a film that is full of so many surprises and there's cumulative effect to each successive action scene that is just joyous to watch. On both watches I was starting to doubt the movie about an hour in thinking "yeah it's well done enough, but I'm not really feeling it yet" only for it to completely escalate in an amazing way in that second half.

    Also I have to leap to defend the snow scene again, mainly because on this watch I realized that there was never an outside establishing shot of
    the nightclub
    so we're really never certain the time taken between that and the prior scene. It's such a minor element of the movie but I love the brief bit of attention to the visual aesthetic (especially when the first movie was kinda samey in terms of cinematography), really shows how immersed Evans get in so many of the details.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,207 ✭✭✭longhalloween


    Hammer Girl and Baseball Guy feel particularly underutilised -
    their final battle with Rama
    would feel far weightier if we'd even had a scene or two more to develop their supposed partnership.

    According to Wiki they're siblings, but I don't remember that mentioned in the film.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,287 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    I'm annoyed. The only cinema in Waterford (Odeon) is not showing it, confirmed by email. The closest one is Mahon Point in Cork! Have to do a day trip at the weekend to see it, and knowing my luck it'll be gone from the cinema then! Ragin'!


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,585 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I'm annoyed. The only cinema in Waterford (Odeon) is not showing it, confirmed by email. The closest one is Mahon Point in Cork! Have to do a day trip at the weekend to see it, and knowing my luck it'll be gone from the cinema then! Ragin'!

    It's only just out. You've a few weeks left I would think.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,383 ✭✭✭S.M.B.


    Well there's only going to be a limited opportunity in a sequel to further develop a lot of the underdeveloped characters, since most of them have been 'retired' in no uncertain terms :pac: I did like the 'cliffhanger', if you could call it that - it leaves some strands open, but still feels like a satisfying conclusion to this film. It's certainly not 'incomplete'. However, I'd completely agree with S.M.B. that a lot of time is spent with characters, and yet they feel wasted. When
    Eka was suddenly highlighted
    as a character of major importance, it felt jarring as he'd effectively been a non-entity up until that point. There's hints of the interesting internal conflicts going on inside Rama, but there's nothing but a bare minimum of an attempt to flesh that out.
    Uco is a weak antagonist
    , with murky motivations and characterisation. Hammer Girl and Baseball Guy feel particularly underutilised -
    their final battle with Rama
    would feel far weightier if we'd even had a scene or two more to develop their supposed partnership.

    All this, yet the film does spend something close to a majority of its running time devoted to plot and characters. It's not hard to imagine that the story would have been engaging if Evans had have spent less time fabricating convoluted gangster politics, and more time defining and exploring his characters.

    Agree with all of the above and I don't think you've even touched on the biggest offender,
    Prakoso, a character who in the grand scheme of things is no more than a minor plot device, is given a sizeable chunk of screen time only to be broadly painted as some tortured hench/family man. His (ultimately meaningless) introduction and death could have been replaced with a much more efficient plot device resulting in more time to flesh out the Hammer Girl/Baseball Guy characters


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,207 ✭✭✭longhalloween


    S.M.B. wrote: »
    Agree with all of the above and I don't think you've even touched on the biggest offender[/SPOILER]

    Yep, he doesn't contribute at all to the plot and his family backstory is pointless. Having him played by the same actor who played Mad Dog in Raid 1 is confusing (even though he is a badass and choreographed the fight scenes)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,464 ✭✭✭e_e


    he doesn't contribute at all to the plot.
    He does though.
    His assassination is what drives Uco to team up with Bejo and kick off the gang war.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,207 ✭✭✭longhalloween


    e_e wrote: »
    He does though.
    His assassination is what drives Uco to team up with Bejo and kick off the gang war.

    Nope
    After Koso's death Bangun accepts responsibility for all the violence. Uco had already teamed up with Bejo, as it was Bejo's assassin that finished Koso off. It takes 3 more deaths to actually start the war.
    And what was the 5 minutes chat with his estranged wife all about? Are we meant to care for him?

    The point is the plot labours too much on Koso, when he has a relatively minor role. I think the role was created for the actor for all the choreography work he did in Raid 1&2, rather than out of need for the character.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,464 ✭✭✭e_e


    Fair enough, got the ordering slightly off there but I do think that event is a big instigator in the gang war all the same.

    I disagree that it lingers on him though. More like 2 or 3 scenes and I doubt the restaurant part is half as long as you say. I appreciate the little touches of backstory that the film takes in that regard. His whole screen time is 10 minutes at most and makes the film a little richer in having some pathos too.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,216 ✭✭✭Looper007


    Got to say, this shows Hollywood how you can do action cinema and not dumb it down for your audience. I probably give this the nod over the first one, and I really loved the first movie. Iko Uwais really is a rootable hero, you can't help but cheer for him. Something lacking in Hollywood leading men these guys. I always love he doesn't come out Unscathed, a bit why Jackie Chan is awesome (well in his Hong Kong pomp in the early 80's) he never did a Bruce Lee, a kick everyone's ass but rather he had to battle his way through while getting his ass kicked.

    My god there are some out of this world action scenes that put the Hollywood blockbusters to shame
    The Jail yard mud bath fight reminds you of Akira Kurosawa but is brutal as hell, The Scene on the train with Hammer girl is brutal too, The car chase as David Morrissey said on his guest stint on Simon Mayo said was the best car chase scene since the French Connection and the fight in the car was action cinema at it's best and the last half hour was awesome especially the fight in the kitchen, which got cheers in the screening I was at
    . Acting honours go to Yayan Ruhian , the ass kicking villain of the first film but a far more tragic character in this and even better for it, a man who lost his family but as he says "he's not smart" to live another life but as down and out hitman the scene
    His last stand as he's betrayed by his bosses son, is actually one of more moving deaths you see in action cinema
    .

    Alex Abbad as Bejo is a interesting villain a sickly guy who clearly who uses his smarts and Hammer Girl, a mute and blind girl and her baseball bat using brother are villains Tarantino would have been proud of although one of my quips is they are so under used. Arifin Putra as Uco, plays the scorned gangster son brilliantly and
    The throat cutting scene when Bejo tells him more information as he cuts another man's throat is pretty stomach turning
    .

    Another character I liked was Donny Alamsyah's Andi
    A undercover cop that actually end up loving the dark side was a interesting take on a undercover cop
    . I have to say the 2 and half hours passed by nicely, although I found the first 15 minutes dragged a little. But the bathroom fight onwards it kept on topping itself with every action set piece.

    Matt Flannery and Dimas Imas Subhonoe cinematography is amazing. the editing by Gareth Evans is tight and his direction amazing. He's the best director of action cinema since John Woo Hong Kong masterpieces. My film of the year so far and it's going to be hard to top it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,216 ✭✭✭Looper007


    Have people here seen Ong Bak and the protector?


    Tony Jaa is in them, brutal action like The raid.

    I loved Ong Bak but loved The Protector even more ( A transsexual baddie and a fight scene that has no edits that goes floor to floor is amazing) but they are nowhere as violent as The Raid films plus Iko Uwais is far more likeable lead for me.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭Warper


    I just have to come back in say i love this movie - absolute WOW


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,181 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    Warper wrote: »
    I just have to come back in say i love this movie - absolute WOW
    sure is...one of the best


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,335 ✭✭✭Heckler


    Saw it last night. Enjoyed it but enjoyed the first more. Thin plot to string together the action sequences. Far too long.

    Great fight scenes. I"d love to know how they puled these off. Surely there must have been serious bruises !

    Fantastic car chase.

    8/10


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,181 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    Nope
    After Koso's death Bangun accepts responsibility for all the violence. Uco had already teamed up with Bejo, as it was Bejo's assassin that finished Koso off. It takes 3 more deaths to actually start the war.
    And what was the 5 minutes chat with his estranged wife all about? Are we meant to care for him?

    The point is the plot labours too much on Koso, when he has a relatively minor role. I think the role was created for the actor for all the choreography work he did in Raid 1&2, rather than out of need for the character.

    No the character was created because he's f***n awesome


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,585 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    No the character was created because he's f***n awesome

    He adds nearly nothing to the film except unnecessary padding. This time could have been spent on developing the brother/sister duo or even just making it shorter.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,181 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    Gareth said if people want "More" of the characters then it's mission accomplished,


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 23,216 Mod ✭✭✭✭Kiith


    Saw it last night, and loved it. Not as good as the first one, and the plot was paper thin, but still really enjoyable. Some excellent fight scenes, though they certainly seemed to add some extreme violence for the sake of violence. Loved the fight with Baseball dude and Hammer chick, and the final fight with curved knife guy.

    Prakoso seemed kind of pointless, and i spent the first few minutes of his screen time wondering how the hell Mad Dog survived the fight in the first film. I was happy to see him, as that was probably the best fight i've seen in years, but still a little confused. Then his wife turned up and i was totally lost. Also, Reza...i had no idea who that was when the cop mentioned him being in the club with Uco.

    Also, the car chase scene. I'd heard that it was amazing, and it wasn't bad, but it just seemed kind of slow. Any time they zoomed out, the cars were going at the same speed as nearby traffic, and at the end a garbage truck that stuck the final car was going faster then them. Not quite what i expected, but enjoyable none the less.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,464 ✭✭✭e_e


    He adds nearly nothing to the film except unnecessary padding. This time could have been spent on developing the brother/sister duo or even just making it shorter.
    The martial arts genre is full of characters like this that say more through their actions than words. I don't see a problem with having more broadly drawn characters like this, even if it's among a larger and more intricate story. Would you use the "awwww I didn't really get to know Mad Dog!" complaint for the first movie? There's an allure and mystery to characters like hammer girl and baseball bat man, I feel the film would get absurd if it were to paint them as more 3 dimensional.

    Why do you think a Prakoso backstory adds nothing to the film whereas a brother/sister story would? They have equal amount of screen time and the latter arguably add less to the plot. Yet people aren't complaining (rightly so, because they're amazing) like "Oh what are they doing in the movie?!"


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,181 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    e_e wrote: »
    The martial arts genre is full of characters like this that say more through their actions than words. I don't see a problem with having more broadly drawn characters like this, even if it's among a larger and more intricate story. Would you use the "awwww I didn't really get to know Mad Dog!" complaint for the first movie? There's an allure and mystery to characters like hammer girl and baseball bat man, I feel the film would get absurd if it were to paint them as more 3 dimensional.

    Why do you think a Prakoso backstory adds nothing to the film whereas a brother/sister story would? They have equal amount of screen time and the latter arguably add less to the plot. Yet people aren't complaining (rightly so, because they're amazing) like "Oh what are they doing in the movie?!"
    in the interview i saw with evans, he was asked will there be a spin off with some of the characters (hammer girl et all) and he said no way...if people want more of them then it's best to leave it that way.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,738 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    I'd be totally behind the 'you're meant to want more' argument, but the difference is I wanted more not because all of the characters were fascinating and mysterious, but rather because the film didn't offer enough to convince me they were fascinating and mysterious. It's like Hammer Girl was just meant to be mysterious because she wore sunglasses, was deaf and wielded dual hammers. But to me it further highlighted a trend of shallow characterisation throughout the film.

    And that's with Hammer Girl, who is actually one of the more intriguing personalities in the film despite her dangerously limited screentime. We've been through the plethora of characters who are simply bland and inconsistent before. Even when the film does take time to develop relationships and personalities, it often does so in pretty haphazard ways. Take the scene in the karaoke booth - is there a single more clichéd and lazy tool in a screenwriter's handbook then having the 'bad guy' violently threaten some 'helpless' women, who are only saved by the calm interference of the 'hero'? In fact, I think Evans might have nicked it wholesale from an early Kitano film, who at least tends to film such scenes with more aesthetic imagination. It's as broad stroke and familiar as storytelling gets, and occupies a good five minutes of screentime while telling us little about the characters in a largely uninteresting way.

    Oddly enough, I'd actually consider 'Koso one of the more successful indulgences in the film, even if I had some concerns with Evans' execution of the storyline (the awkward cut from busy nightclub to empty one, the random snow). That's actually a character I would have liked to spend more time with because the glimpses of backstory were pretty interesting, and he was a well-defined yet likeably enigmatic screen presence. It does, however, indicate some of the film's structural oddities. Characters and tangential subplots are introduced suddenly and concluded just as quickly. Others are introduced early and are barely explored, while other people again are little more than background wallpaper until they're suddenly and unconvincingly identified as key players. The result is a lack of dramatic weight to what are supposed to be exciting twists, and all this despite the copious amounts of screentime devoted to building the drama. Attention has clearly been paid to building on various elements of the narrative, and yet significant chunks feel sorely lacking.

    Perhaps it would have been 'absurd' to spend more times developing them as three dimensions, but honestly I see little reason why more depth to storytelling wouldn't have made the already visceral action hit even harder.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,181 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    it's the oddities that have drawn me towards asian cinema


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,464 ✭✭✭e_e


    Take the scene in the karaoke booth - is there a single more clichéd and lazy tool in a screenwriter's handbook then having the 'bad guy' violently threaten some 'helpless' women
    Funnily enough, I thought the quick moment where Prakoso chases down a group of guys and one of them throws his partner at him as if she's bait said more about the character's treatment of women than that scene did. I'm with you there anyway.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,585 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    e_e wrote: »
    The martial arts genre is full of characters like this that say more through their actions than words. I don't see a problem with having more broadly drawn characters like this, even if it's among a larger and more intricate story. Would you use the "awwww I didn't really get to know Mad Dog!" complaint for the first movie? There's an allure and mystery to characters like hammer girl and baseball bat man, I feel the film would get absurd if it were to paint them as more 3 dimensional.

    Why do you think a Prakoso backstory adds nothing to the film whereas a brother/sister story would? They have equal amount of screen time and the latter arguably add less to the plot. Yet people aren't complaining (rightly so, because they're amazing) like "Oh what are they doing in the movie?!"

    I think the brother/sister pair were more interesting characters. That's just my opinion of course and there seem to be plenty who are happy with the Prakoso character's backstory. The film needed to be streamlined but if Evans and company wanted to spend so much time on dialogue, I'd rather that it was focused on the brother and sister. Again, just my opinion.
    In the grand scheme of things, Prakoso served only as the trigger for a gang war and was insufficient even at that. The filmmakers going out of their way to give him character development when he was merely a plot device is something I find daft considering the already sizeable length of the flim.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,216 ✭✭✭Looper007


    in the interview i saw with evans, he was asked will there be a spin off with some of the characters (hammer girl et all) and he said no way...if people want more of them then it's best to leave it that way.

    That's what I love about The Raid films, you don't have to read to deep into the meaning just sit back and enjoy what's put on the screen, Visually the bad guys were like comic book characters at their best, even Tarantino would have been proud of them.

    I see a few folks on here saying the first Raid is better and others think the second is better (I'm one). I look at it like my two favourite Clash albums, the first is straight up punk rock, nothing too fancy just right in your face and London Calling had a bit more choice and upped the ante. I think both films are amazing, and are well deserving of their acclaim.

    Any word on how it's doing at the Box Office? I know in America although it was critically acclaimed it done poorly but that was to be expected, American's and subtitles don't go together even if it's a action flick.


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