Opinions on Educate Together

Sully · 02-08-2012 5:16pm

username123 wrote: »

Perhaps not everyone wants their children taught that homosexuality is a sin or that sex outside of marriage is a sin or that contraception is sinful or that there is such a thing as an all seeing all knowing supernatural entity running the show and he knows if you have been bold and if you have, you might go to a place where there is a lot of fire and be tortured for all eternity after you die. Id certainly rather see my taxes paying for science and the teaching of rational enquiry instead of religious indoctrination.

Or that all other religions are false as this breeds intolerance and hatred.

I'm not sure they teach that in school. Do you want to me to pick faults with other religions? There are many! But as I said in my post, if you actually decided to read it, is that I believe -all- options should be thought. Making your kids grow up and have absolutely no understanding of the biggest followings in the world and wondering wtf its all about is a sin (:D).

Also for what its worth - I went to a catholic primary and secondary school. Even the college has religious references. I'm not anti-gays. Neither do I think its a sin to have sex before marriage, sleep with someone before marriage, wear condoms and so on. I think the Catholic Church is rotten to the core and despite all their riches they expect churches to fund themselves and fund schools independently. They have also proven to be not exactly in sync with their own teachings and they go against their own religion daily.

But its one part of the religion - not all of it. Most people dismiss the old teachings and carry on with part of what they believe in, dismissing the rest.

bradknowell · 02-08-2012 5:20pm

Sully wrote: »

I'm not sure they teach that in school. Do you want to me to pick faults with other religions? There are many! But as I said in my post, if you actually decided to read it, is that I believe -all- options should be thought. Making your kids grow up and have absolutely no understanding of the biggest followings in the world and wondering wtf its all about is a sin (:D).

Learning about all of them then you'd never have time top learn anything else.
I shall rename you silly haha only messing man. Yeah it would be nice for kids to choose themselves whether to believe or not and also have there decision based on education of whatever they choose and not because their parents want them to go for this or that .

username123 · 02-08-2012 5:25pm

Sully wrote: »

I'm not sure they teach that in school. Do you want to me to pick faults with other religions? There are many! But as I said in my post, if you actually decided to read it, is that I believe -all- options should be thought. Making your kids grow up and have absolutely no understanding of the biggest followings in the world and wondering wtf its all about is a sin (:D).

They taught it in my primary school! And Limbo, wheres that gone now?

Im not sure why you are being smart with the

if you actually decided to read it

?

It would be extremely difficult in these days of easy access to information, a multi cultural society, social media and tv/radio/magazines etc for a child to grow up ignorant of the concept of religion. If you were really that worried about it then Ive no problem with you telling your children what religion is. Now do I have a problem with a school telling a child what a religion is, or that there are many of them. But there is a difference between:

There exists a concept called religion where different people of different faiths have different belief systems.

and:

There is only one right way to be thinking and thats the Catholic way and all other religions are wrong etc...

One is education, one is indoctrination. Some people think that indoctrinating children is wrong and as bad as child abuse. Thats an extreme view of course, but Id still rather no indoctrination happens in schools that my taxes contribute towards.

As I side issue I have problems with the Catholic Church as an organisation, but thats not relevant to religious instruction in this context.

Finnbar01 · 02-08-2012 6:39pm

username123 wrote: »

Finnbar01 - what exactly is the connection between paying taxes and religious indoctrination? I just dont understand it?

Why should the state have to provide for religious instruction in the public education system?

Why should the state have to provide for anything for that matter?

username123 · 02-08-2012 7:42pm

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Why should the state have to provide for anything for that matter?

Im not sure what this means? If you wish to understand why it benefits society to pay taxes to pay for things like public education systems then I suggest you educate yourself on it. Perhaps you do not know because your time in school was wasted on religious indoctrination, presenting myth and superstition to children as though it was fact.

freedominacup · 02-08-2012 8:14pm

newtotown wrote: »

The focus these past few months has been very much on developing the language of the senior infants with writing, reading, comprehension, etc -- basically readying them for class 1 and "proper" learning. They're also encouraged to develop their own feelings, communication, etc -- to the point where there was even a section in his end of year report marking him on how well he effectively communicates his feelings.

There are no religious teachings, obviously (which I'm glad about), and at age 6 he's already being taught sex/health education. *Not* about sex itself -- last month the topic was the womb. Some people will be put off by their kids learning that kind of thing so young, but I'm just as open with him at home, so it's not a bother for me personally.

The school does try to get the parents involved a lot. Whenever there are events going on, parents are asked to contribute.

The lunch rules are a bit annoying. There's a very strict list of things he's allowed and not allowed in his lunch and any breaking of that rule will result in a letter home. I don't feed my kid a lot of junk but some of what they consider junk is ridiculous and you have to get really creative in order to give your child a bit of variety.

Do I think my son is in the best school for his needs? It's impossible to tell in infants/senior infants. Class 1 & 2 will be telling and at the end of next year I will be assessing the situation and sitting him down to ask if he's happy to stay on there or if he'd rather change. He would still be young enough to have time to settle in a new school, but obviously I'd rather avoid that if I can, as he's already changed schools this year. But for now I'm happy with his progress and looking forward to seeing how he gets on over the coming year.

So basically ET is exactly the same as my children's small rural "catholic" school down to the school reports (section marked your childs personal and social development) and the lunchbox rules? The only difference that I can see is that my kids' school have a very good book rental scheme which means that our book outlay for this Sept is less than €100 intotal for 2nd 4th and 5th class. Oh and the bit of religion.

All schools try to get parents involved but as is usual in all walks of life a few people turn up to expose themselves to endless criticism from those who won't bother their holes when the decisions taken don't suit.

Is there a sex/health education subject? I think 6 is a bit young to be doing more than answering whatever questions your child comes up with on their own.

I think most parents have their own version of the anxiety you express in your last paragraph. Worrying comes with the territory.

Finnbar01 · 02-08-2012 8:26pm

username123 wrote: »

Im not sure what this means?

If you don't know what I mean, why comment on it than?

If you wish to understand why it benefits society to pay taxes to pay for things like public education systems then I suggest you educate yourself on it.

I fully understand why people pay taxes. And when those people pay for it, they usually call the shots. Get it?

Perhaps you do not know because your time in school was wasted on religious indoctrination, presenting myth and superstition to children as though it was fact.

You do not know what schooling I've had.

Anyways, have you been schooled or should I say, indoctrinated, to believe that religious schools are bad?

freedominacup · 02-08-2012 8:29pm

username123 wrote: »

Perhaps not everyone wants their children taught that homosexuality is a sin or that sex outside of marriage is a sin or that contraception is sinful.

Or that all other religions are false as this breeds intolerance and hatred.

Where is all of this happening beyond your fevered imaginings?

I know that the only case where I felt the need to correct a child for gaybashing in my house his parents were about the most secular/non religious amongst the parents of my son's friends. Funny thing about it was his uncle is as gay as Christmas and very close to the childs mother to boot. Nothing that kid was being taught in school had anything to do with his attitude and it wasn't the last time I heard offensive language from him.

marienbad · 02-08-2012 8:49pm

Educate together are just brilliant , at least in Limerick . We are on our second generation of kids going there and can only speak well of them. Here's hoping they get a secondary school in Limerick soon.

And as for the transition from ET to seconday school - our kids had no problem and all excelled academically and in the sports arena .

Or maybe it was just in the levi's

angelfalling · 02-08-2012 8:49pm

I feel, and many non-religious parents do, that anything regarding Catholicism is false. I don't to have to explain, somehow, to my 5 year old (and every year after that) how one class in the place she goes to learn facts teaches untruths, while the rest she can trust. Everything else taught in school is based on fact, English is English, Irish is Irish, Maths is Maths and History is History.

If you want religious instruction, arrange it yourselves. It's hardly unfair to the religious masses. The attitude of, "well I had to take that class and I'm gay/atheist/etc" doesn't help anything. It didn't affect you, but it affects some. Hell I'm from bible belt America and the closest we got to having religion in schools is "under God" in the pledge of allegiance every morning.

Cabaal · 02-08-2012 9:43pm

Finnbar01 wrote: »

I have nothing against choice whatsoever. AFAIK, surveys carry out suggested that a majority of parents want their children to recieve religious instruction in school. If that is their choice, then the state has a duty to uphold it.

Really?
Got any links?

Cabaal · 02-08-2012 9:58pm

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Anyways, have you been schooled or should I say, indoctrinated, to believe that religious schools are bad?

Can i ask Finbarr01,

Firstly do you think that teaching history (including evolution, dinosaurs etc), geography (formation of the planet, plate tech-tonics), science/physics (big bang stuff, CERN..LHC etc) are all suitable subjects in schools?

Now, after you've answered the above do you think teaching any religion specifically one which is wholly based around a man who was born to a virgin (this goes against all facts, biology etc) amongst all the other myths and superstitions being presented as facts belong beside actual stuff that can be proven?

Lets not forget that the above belief system also generally belittles other belief systems at the same time, its clear Catholicism and for that matter any religion has no place in our education system and as such should be separate and left up to parents, priests and so called Sunday schools.

This is the fairest system for all parents regardless of the belief system they follow.

In relation to tax payer money and use of school resources and time, taking time out of the school year to "prepare" kids for a religious event (communion) is a incredible waste of school time and resources and as such all preparation should take place outside of school time.

Of course you and me know that if this did have to happen many parents wouldn't actually be pushed to go through with the whole event as many just feel pushed into it because of the mob mentality of not wanting to have their kid left out in school.

If the event wasn't discussed in school and wasn't arranged in school this would not longer be an issue and no longer would parents feel pressured into it.

tar_man · 02-08-2012 11:59pm

Though lots of people don't prefer ET schools no-one said they shouldn't exist. There is an ET school, if you want to send your kids there you can. If you can get enough people who share your views you can even set up another ET school.

But why should people who want to send their children to a standard Catholic school be stopped from doing so? I want to send my kids to a Gaelscoil. I certainly don't think English language schools should be banned.

Religion never caused anyone to be burned at the stake. It was an intolerance of other peoples views that led to deaths.

As I said I consider myself an atheist, but I am tolerant of the views of religious people. I know people who are well informed, intelligent, tolerant, kind, and religious. It is possible to be all these things.

I don't want my children to think their world view is inherently superior, whether that world view is atheist/religious or whatever.

So fine, send your kids to an ET. I'll stump up my fair share of taxes. But show the same respect to other parents who chose a different school.

Live and let live.

freedominacup · 03-08-2012 1:20am

tar_man wrote: »

Live and let live.

On this topic, on any internet forum in this country. Good luck with that. Your tolerance puts you in a small minority amongst the atheist posters on this or any other forum I've experienced.

bradknowell · 03-08-2012 4:49am

freedominacup wrote: »

On this topic, on any internet forum in this country. Good luck with that. Your tolerance puts you in a small minority amongst the atheist posters on this or any other forum I've eperienced.

As an atheist , I totally agree with you.

Cabaal · 03-08-2012 8:18am

tar_man wrote: »

Though lots of people don't prefer ET schools no-one said they shouldn't exist. There is an ET school, if you want to send your kids there you can. If you can get enough people who share your views you can even set up another ET school.

Sounds great, in an ideal situation....
However in many cases a ET school might be a 40-70min bus ride away in many parts of Ireland,

As for starting a school its not as easy as you think and it certainly costs alot.

But why should people who want to send their children to a standard Catholic school be stopped from doing so? I want to send my kids to a Gaelscoil. I certainly don't think English language schools should be banned.

Nobody's stopping their kid from getting an education and still learning their religion, however education belongs in school and religion as it is very much a personal thing belongs outside of the state education system (church and state should be separate after all).

Religion should be left to the parents (as they want their child to be brought up in the faith), priests and so called Sunday schools.

If being catholic (or for that matter any faith) is that important to the parents they will only see the change in school as a minor thing as they'll likely attend mass etc every week anyway.

I've had this discussion with many catholic parents and their response tends to be "its not a big deal", the example I tend to give them is..

"Ok, so you want your kid to be brought up a catholic but your local state run/funded school is "insert other faith here such as muslin etc", the nearest alternative school is a 90min journey away so you effectively have no other choice, what would you want?

Their response in the vast majority of discussions I've had tends to be:

"oh, well that's different".

The thing is, it isn't in anyway different for somebody that doesn't want their kid to be force fed a faith they don't believe in and pays tax towards this force feeding.

Religion never caused anyone to be burned at the stake. It was an intolerance of other peoples views that led to deaths.

Errr, well yes it kinda did,
If you look at modern events you'll see that the vatican (the head of the catholic church) has apologized for its passed actions in relation to many cases.

Sadly for more recent events they still haven't taken meaningful actions.

As I said I consider myself an atheist, but I am tolerant of the views of religious people. I know people who are well informed, intelligent, tolerant, kind, and religious. It is possible to be all these things.

I don't want my children to think their world view is inherently superior, whether that world view is atheist/religious or whatever.

I'm also tolerant, in that I would ensure that my child would be aware of all faiths and what they actually involve,

Now if in later life they (for example) decided that they'd like to be a quaker as this seemed to fit their lifestyle then that will be their decision and it will be an informed one, whilst I may not be 100% happy about it atleast it will have been their decision.

My problem is with religion being forced upon children who are never given a choice,

As I've said before this happens with many parents because they feel pressured into it and don't want to rock the boat or cause their kid to be different in school by pulling them out of religion classes/communion.

Finnbar01 · 03-08-2012 9:32am

Cabaal wrote: »

Can i ask Finbarr01,

Firstly do you think that teaching history (including evolution, dinosaurs etc), geography (formation of the planet, plate tech-tonics), science/physics (big bang stuff, CERN..LHC etc) are all suitable subjects in schools?

Yes, of course they are suitable subjects.

Now, after you've answered the above do you think teaching any religion specifically one which is wholly based around a man who was born to a virgin (this goes against all facts, biology etc) amongst all the other myths and superstitions being presented as facts belong beside actual stuff that can be proven?

Lets not forget that the above belief system also generally belittles other belief systems at the same time, its clear Catholicism and for that matter any religion has no place in our education system and as such should be separate and left up to parents, priests and so called Sunday schools.

That's not the point I am making about religious education (whether God exists or not). If parents (who are in the majority) want their children to receive religious education in schools, than the state is required to provide for it.

In relation to tax payer money and use of school resources and time, taking time out of the school year to "prepare" kids for a religious event (communion) is a incredible waste of school time and resources and as such all preparation should take place outside of school time.

See my point above.

Of course you and me know that if this did have to happen many parents wouldn't actually be pushed to go through with the whole event as many just feel pushed into it because of the mob mentality of not wanting to have their kid left out in school.

If the event wasn't discussed in school and wasn't arranged in school this would not longer be an issue and no longer would parents feel pressured into it.

How do you know that. If you ask me, some parents want communions and confirmations as an excuse for a p*ss up.

Anyways, we're going nowhere with this and it doesn't matter, as legisalation is being brought about to allow non religious schools come into existance, so parents will have even more choice.

angelfalling · 03-08-2012 9:50am

"If parents (who are in the majority) want their children to receive religious education in schools, than the state is required to provide for it."

Why is that?

Also, I know plenty of parents who have christened their babies only because of fear they won't get places in schools later down the road.

Finnbar01 · 03-08-2012 11:17am

angelfalling wrote: »

"If parents (who are in the majority) want their children to receive religious education in schools, than the state is required to provide for it."

Why is that?

Because we live in a democracy.

I'm not saying that's ideal (a democracy that is) but that's the way it works.

eyescreamcone · 03-08-2012 12:35pm

I wonder how all those who support state funded religious schools would feel if they lived in a rural area - and the only show in town was a Scientology school.

Would you be happy to let Little Tommy sit down the back of the class colouring while the Scientologists played their mind games on the rest of the class??

In place of Scientology please feel free to use any other religion/sect/cult (same thing) that you can think of.

Religion should not be allowed in state funded schools - as per the USA.
Teach only facts in school, except for fiction related courses where the students are taught that fiction IS fiction.
Obviously outside of school hours children can be "taught" about their parents particular religion.

But the state should not pay for fiction to be taught as fact!!!

pwurple · 03-08-2012 12:55pm

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Would you be happy to let Little Tommy sit down the back of the class colouring while the Scientologists played their mind games on the rest of the class??
.

I wouldn't give two hoots if that school also had the best maths results in the area. Heck join in with it. This is what is wrong with education in Ireland today. Priorites gone skew-ways. It is so low on my priority list it doesn't register. But I will tear their maths courses to bits trying to find the best teachers for that subject.

OP, look at the maths english and language results of the students. Base your decision on that, and absolutely nothing else. The rest is window dressing.

eyescreamcone · 03-08-2012 1:03pm

pwurple wrote: »

I wouldn't give two hoots if that school also had the best maths results in the area. Heck join in with it. This is what is wrong with education in Ireland today. Priorites gone skew-ways. It is so low on my priority list it doesn't register. But I will tear their maths courses to bits trying to find the best teachers for that subject.

OP, look at the maths english and language results of the students. Base your decision on that, and absolutely nothing else. The rest is window dressing.

Would it not be better so to spend an extra 2.5 hours per week teaching important subjects like Maths and English (don't get me started on PE), insteading of wasting this time teaching fairy tales???
Feel free to increase this 2.5 hours (as outlined in the curriculum) to whatever for the Communion and Confirmation classes.

What a waste of time for the students (not to mention tax payers money)

Dan133269 · 03-08-2012 1:13pm

Finnbar01 wrote: »

If parents (who are in the majority) want their children to receive religious education in schools, than the state is required to provide for it.

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Because we live in a democracy.

I'm not saying that's ideal (a democracy that is) but that's the way it works.

This is something you have stated about 3 times. Because people want their children to receive religious education in schools, then the state is required to provide for it because we live in a democracy, you say. However, what the Constitution provides for is freedom of religion, and implicitly, freedom from religion. The Constitution contains safeguards to ensure that people receive basic fundamental rights regardless of the policy of the government.

So, just because most Irish people say they want their children to have religious instruction in school, this doesn't trump the rights of those parents who want non-religious education for their children.

To give an example if the Government wanted all Jewish people to go around wearing stars of David on their arm, this wouldn't be allowed, even if the majority of Irish people supported it. This is because certain rights are inalienable, they are so important that they cannot be dispensed with just because other people want preferential treatment for their own circumstances, be it religion or anything else.

EDIT: This is a chapter from my dissertation on Church-State separation. It deals with some of the issues relating to religious education/religious instruction in public schools.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2030264

pwurple · 03-08-2012 1:13pm

I think it's quality rather than quantity when it comes to maths in particular. But either way, religion is still taught in the ET schools, just in a different way. The educate together schools in my area have a reputation for spending more of their time teaching english to non-native english speakers, than addressing maths. Their maths results are poor. They were ruled out for us for that reason.

freedominacup · 03-08-2012 1:36pm

angelfalling wrote: »

Also, I know plenty of parents who have christened their babies only because of fear they won't get places in schools later down the road.

In Portlaw? Seriously?:rolleyes:

Dan133269 · 03-08-2012 1:43pm

freedominacup wrote: »

In Portlaw? Seriously?:rolleyes:

In fact, it is more likely for a child to be refused admission to a denominational school in a rural area as they are more "clicky" and traditional in terms of religion. I don't know why you put in a rolleyes smiley, if you think that this isn't an issue, there are plenty of television and radio debates that have been devoted to it with anecdotal evidence of exactly this situation happening. There was a Front Line episode devoted to it a year or 2 ago as well I believe.

mike65 · 03-08-2012 2:01pm

"clique"!

My sister and hubby decided to get their daughter christened for the sake of the local school. Neither of them has a religious bone in their body, I was a little disapproving but of course its their call!

marienbad · 03-08-2012 2:06pm

mike65 wrote: »

"clique"!

My sister and hubby decided to get their daughter christened for the sake of the local school. Neither of them has a religious bone in their body, I was a little disapproving but of course its their call!

Happening all the time up and down the country and is a complete abuse of power and taxpayers money, including taxes from those parents having to undergo this subterfuge, in order to get their kids into the school nearest to them that should be theirs by right.

Cabaal · 03-08-2012 2:52pm

mike65 wrote: »

My sister and hubby decided to get their daughter christened for the sake of the local school. Neither of them has a religious bone in their body, I was a little disapproving but of course its their call!

Its an awful decision for any parents to make and one that is all too common these days, as pointed out above already it is certainly a factor in some areas (especially high populated area;s but also rural area's too) where a school will give first pref to a catholic over a non catholic.

This in itself is wrong when the primary function of the school is education, not religious studies. It proves beyond that kids are not being treated as equal when they should be,.

byhookorbycrook · 03-08-2012 3:52pm

No one type of school is "better" than another. A school is only as good as its community- staff, parents, children.

I would encourage any parent to actually visit any school they think they might want to send their child to, down the line.

Just to mention that ET schools and Gaelscoileanna under the Foras are multi-denom, not non denom.

username123 · 04-08-2012 1:10pm

Finnbar01 wrote: »

If you don't know what I mean, why comment on it than?

To give you a chance to clarify/explain?

Finnbar01 wrote: »

I fully understand why people pay taxes. And when those people pay for it, they usually call the shots. Get it?

Oh, you dont understand it then. Atheists pay taxes too. So do Protestants, Muslims, Jews and all the other religions in this country.

Finnbar01 wrote: »

You do not know what schooling I've had.

I could make a fairly well educated guess based on the lack of clarity and explanation in the reasoning processes displayed here.

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Anyways, have you been schooled or should I say, indoctrinated, to believe that religious schools are bad?

Fortunately the method of rational enquiry that allows someone to see beyond mere sheep like indoctrination is not, in and of itself, indoctrination.

I dont believe religious schools are bad. I believe religion is a fiction and if people want their children to be taught myth and superstition alongside fact and presented as such, they are entitled to do so. But not on taxpayers money. If people wish to indoctrinate their children then they are totally welcome to do so, but not in the public education system, it is not an appropriate vehicle for religious instruction and despite your repeated assertions that 'it should happen because we live in a democracy' you have failed to provide any valid reasoning behind this and are just making a mindless assertion, much like the mindless assertions made by religions (and not just Catholicism). Just because you say something does not make it true. In effect your posts seem to be saying 'i want a catholic education to be available to my child because i am a tax payer and we live in a democracy' - can you see that there is no rational reasoning being made here? What about non religious people who are also tax payers and do not want this? What about the waste of tax payers money teaching fiction in schools? What about a modern secular progressive society? What about catering for the multi culturalism that now exists in our society and not just ramming catholicism down peoples throats?

byhookorbycrook · 04-08-2012 4:25pm

At the moment there is no provision for non-denomschools in Ireland, even ET/multi denom must teach about religions.

7upfree · 04-08-2012 8:26pm

mike65 wrote: »

Christ on a bike - you'd think Atheism was a crime committed by cranks reading some of this thread.

Schools should be non-religious in every aspect, keep Church (any church) in Church or the home.

I was educated in the Presentation. The religious aspect didn't do me any harm. When the Brits had us under the cosh we wouldnt of had an education it it wasnt for the nuns. The Brits spend enough time trying to crush religion without doing it ourselves.

bradknowell · 04-08-2012 8:35pm

7upfree wrote: »

I was educated in the Presentation. The religious aspect didn't do me any harm. When the Brits had us under the cosh we wouldnt of had an education it it wasnt for the nuns. The Brits spend enough time trying to crush religion without doing it ourselves.

Pregnant nation. Supposedly mini hopper was a mad yoke. Think that was her name anyways.

marienbad · 05-08-2012 3:20am

7upfree wrote: »

I was educated in the Presentation. The religious aspect didn't do me any harm. When the Brits had us under the cosh we wouldnt of had an education it it wasnt for the nuns. The Brits spend enough time trying to crush religion without doing it ourselves.

That is a line that is trotted out all the time and is simply not true. We would have had the exact same education opportunites that pertained in the United Kingdom at the time of our independance . How we choose to develop after that was ours to decide.

It is the Catholic Church that opposed what was on offer and the Brits as you call them caved and gave in to them . That is how the church got hold of education and later and in a similar way got control of health.

The joke is the Church controlled the system and got credit for it and built up this myth of providing education where none was on offer and we the taxpayer got to pay for it and had little or no say in the running of it.

freedominacup · 05-08-2012 7:10am

Dan133269 wrote: »

In fact, it is more likely for a child to be refused admission to a denominational school in a rural area as they are more "clicky" and traditional in terms of religion.

In fact you are speaking out of what you're sitting on. There isn't a rural school in Ireland that would ever turn down someone looking to enroll their child. It's always a struggle to keep numbers up to the level required to keep the teachers they have. Hence the rolleyes here's one for you as well.:rolleyes: Just so that you don't feel left out.

Cabaal · 05-08-2012 8:48am

freedominacup wrote: »

In fact you are speaking out of what you're sitting on. There isn't a rural school in Ireland that would ever turn down someone looking to enroll their child. It's always a struggle to keep numbers up to the level required to keep the teachers they have. Hence the rolleyes here's one for you as well.:rolleyes: Just so that you don't feel left out.

Your assumption is very wide spread, not all rural schools are crying out for extra kids so instead they can pick and choose. Not all rural schools are 20miles away from the nearest house you know

Also while we're at it, what about rural schools rejecting kids based on the kids not being "in-line" with their religious beliefs?....this has also happened and actually only a matter of months ago this was in the news.

7upfree · 05-08-2012 8:53am

marienbad wrote: »

That is a line that is trotted out all the time and is simply not true. We would have had the exact same education opportunites that pertained in the United Kingdom at the time of our independance . How we choose to develop after that was ours to decide.

Have you actually read the history of our country? And what happened BEFORE independence? We were under the cosh - plain and simple. A manufactured famine. We should now have a population of twelve million. The British/English did all they could to crush the Catholic (majority) population underfoot.

Were it not for the likes of Ed Rice and Nano Nagle God nows what would have become of us. Short memories indeed.

7upfree · 05-08-2012 8:55am

Cabaal wrote: »

In relation to tax payer money and use of school resources and time, taking time out of the school year to "prepare" kids for a religious event (communion) is a incredible waste of school time and resources and as such all preparation should take place outside of school time.

It's a pity the critics of Religious schools don't grow a pair and stop the children from receiving. Or attending. They'll moan moan moan, and criticise, but do nothing.

Cabaal · 05-08-2012 9:37am

7upfree wrote: »

It's a pity the critics of Religious schools don't grow a pair and stop the children from receiving. Or attending. They'll moan moan moan, and criticise, but do nothing.

As we've already discussed...(since you appear to have missed it)

Many schools up and down the country won't let kids into schools that are not baptized....so in short if a parent doesn't go with the whole religious thing they often have no choice of school for their kids education (unless they travel much further afield).

No parent should feel pressured into getting their kid baptized etc, especially just to get a education, but thats the way it is in modern Ireland where church and state are supposed to be separate.

looksee · 05-08-2012 9:49am

7upfree wrote: »

Have you actually read the history of our country? And what happened BEFORE independence? We were under the cosh - plain and simple. A manufactured famine. We should now have a population of twelve million. The British/English did all they could to crush the Catholic (majority) population underfoot.

Were it not for the likes of Ed Rice and Nano Nagle God nows what would have become of us. Short memories indeed.

So Ireland has been in charge of its own affairs for how many years? How long do you reckon it will take to get a handle on things?

marienbad · 05-08-2012 3:04pm

7upfree wrote: »

Have you actually read the history of our country? And what happened BEFORE independence? We were under the cosh - plain and simple. A manufactured famine. We should now have a population of twelve million. The British/English did all they could to crush the Catholic (majority) population underfoot.

Were it not for the likes of Ed Rice and Nano Nagle God nows what would have become of us. Short memories indeed.

I might ask you the same question and this time take off the green tinted glasses.

I am in no way defending the British record in Ireland . But the educarion system the pertains in Britain is a evolution of the education system created in the late 19th century and the same was on offer here.

The catholic church vetoed that on religious grounds and created this false dichotomy of no eductation or religious education - it is simply not correct. Just look it up.

angelfalling · 05-08-2012 7:58pm

freedominacup wrote: »

In Portlaw? Seriously?:rolleyes:

No, I'm pretty sure 98% of this village IS Catholic. Just because I live in Portlaw doesn't mean I don't know people outside of the village, ffs.

However, if we wanted our daughter to go there she'd be at the bottom of the list because she isn't baptized.

7upfree · 05-08-2012 8:01pm

marienbad wrote: »

I might ask you the same question and this time take off the green tinted glasses.

I am in no way defending the British record in Ireland . But the educarion system the pertains in Britain is a evolution of the education system created in the late 19th century and the same was on offer here.

The catholic church vetoed that on religious grounds and created this false dichotomy of no eductation or religious education - it is simply not correct. Just look it up.

Don't need to. The majority of our modern-day ancestors would not of had an education only for the religious. Try looking it up yourself.

7upfree · 05-08-2012 8:03pm

Cabaal wrote: »

As we've already discussed...(since you appear to have missed it)

Many schools up and down the country won't let kids into schools that are not baptized....so in short if a parent doesn't go with the whole religious thing they often have no choice of school for their kids education (unless they travel much further afield).

No parent should feel pressured into getting their kid baptized etc, especially just to get a education, but thats the way it is in modern Ireland where church and state are supposed to be separate.

Sorry, doesnt cut it IMHO. You have the mod crying for the church's head.....then wanting to be facilitated by religious schools. All hot air. As usual.

angelfalling · 05-08-2012 8:04pm

7upfree wrote: »

Don't need to. The majority of our modern-day ancestors would not of had an education only for the religious. Try looking it up yourself.

That doesn't mean Ireland owes them anything. The "religious" have a lot to answer for in this country as well.

Dan133269 · 05-08-2012 8:22pm

7upfree wrote: »

It's a pity the critics of Religious schools don't grow a pair and stop the children from receiving. Or attending. They'll moan moan moan, and criticise, but do nothing.

I agree that people should be a lot more forthright in their convictions instead of saying one thing and doing another. It is clear however that there is an increasing number of non-religious parents sending their children to educate together schools (the entire topic of this thread!) where they receive a balanced instruction with regard to religion. There are also an increasing number of parents who choose to exercise their Constitutional right for their children to "opt out" of religious instruction in denomination schools. Again however, religious authorities cannot play by the rules and often they don't comply with the parents' requests.

There has also been extensive litigation in the High Court and Supreme Court in the case of Campaign to Separate Church and State v Minister for Education where the current state support of denomination schooling was questioned and ultimately defeated.

While we're on the subject of "growing a pair", there are plenty of religious people whom I would love to see "grow a pair" regarding their children's religious education. The Catholic Church in this country has been responsible for the systematic, repeated and remorseless rape of thousands upon thousands of innocent children, and the torture and murder of countless others. How have they responded? With lies, deceit, legal action to try and block commissions of inquiry, silence, failure to respond and co-operate with tribunals, and insulting victims (e.g. the assertion to Michael O' Brien that he was "in it for the money" and graphically inappropriate and irrelevant questions to Brendan Boland in the 1970s.).

In fact, the current head of the Catholic Church in Ireland, Sean Brady was the chief investigator of a case of rape involving Fr. Brendan Smith in the 1970's. Brady didn't do anything about it, never informed the Gardai, the police in Northern Ireland, the victims parents or anyone else for that matter. His criminal negligence and complicity resulted in hundreds other children being raped by Brendan Smyth. Where is Sean Brady now? Yes, that's right, the head of the Catholic Church in Ireland. This is the organisation by which Irish Catholics wish their children to be educated in spiritual and moral issues? And then they criticise non-Catholics for not indoctrinating their children into this cult and paedophile ring. Why don't religious people grow a pair and exercise some basic human morals? People like that are hypocrites of the highest order and make me sick.

freedominacup wrote: »

In fact you are speaking out of what you're sitting on. There isn't a rural school in Ireland that would ever turn down someone looking to enroll their child. It's always a struggle to keep numbers up to the level required to keep the teachers they have. Hence the rolleyes here's one for you as well.:rolleyes: Just so that you don't feel left out.

I'm talking out of my arse? Well, if that's the case, perhaps you could explain why Catholic schools (both rural and urban) demand to see a child's baptismal cert before they allow them to be enrolled? This is something that is well documented, having been discussed on several television and radio debates, as I said. That is, of course, if you follow such things in the media. I look forward to your reply.

http://iedigitaldebate.appspot.com/health-education/baptismal-certs-schools/

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2009/12/01/printall.asp

This is because of overcrowding and the schools, for the first time, having to ration places on the basis of baptismal certificates and household bills.

Many parents nowadays have their children baptised primarily to ensure that they can get into primary schools in their locality where Catholic church baptismal certificates are required.

freedominacup · 05-08-2012 9:25pm

Dan133269 wrote: »

I'm talking out of my arse? Well, if that's the case, perhaps you could explain why Catholic schools (both rural and urban) demand to see a child's baptismal cert before they allow them to be enrolled? This is something that is well documented, having been discussed on several television and radio debates, as I said. That is, of course, if you follow such things in the media. I look forward to your reply.

http://iedigitaldebate.appspot.com/health-education/baptismal-certs-schools/

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2009/12/01/printall.asp

You're the one making the case that it happens. I can't prove a negative. The 2 links your provided are useless one or two relevant and useful links would help your case. Political party leaders not answering a question in one and the other some sort of random link to what looks like minutes from the Dail from Dec'09.

Cabaal wrote:

Your assumption is very wide spread, not all rural schools are crying out for extra kids so instead they can pick and choose. Not all rural schools are 20miles away from the nearest house you know

The school my kids attend is about 5mins drive or 3 miles from my house. There are 3 other schools within 3 miles of it. There are at least 7 schools within 5 miles of my house and I would estimate a minimum of 30 within your 20 mile radius. Rural and remote are not nessecarily the same thing although I know that certain urban dwellers are inclined to get nose bleeds as they pass the bourough boundary due to the percieved bleakness and remoteness once the street lighting runs out.

freedominacup · 05-08-2012 9:45pm

Honestly you would think that the catholic church was running a series of catholic Madrasah across the country. Where did the posters who are so vehement in their opposition go to school? I must have gone to a strange type of institution i don't remember much indoctrination or ramming or forcing of teachings down my throat as many contend. I do remember one female teacher during religion class in the (CBS) school I attended in the '80s when addressing the issue of abortion coming out with a gem about presenting a priest with the result of a miscarrige at 3-4 months and asking him to baptise it. I'm afraid she failed to convert me I'm still totally anti-abortion.

Are people really telling me that the situation has "disimproved" since then, that teachers will no longer express their real opinions on this type of subject? That the control exerted by the catholic church has increased in the intervening 20-25 years. I really doubt this is the case. There's quite a degree on knee jerking and harking back to '70s "radical" politics a kind of inverse McCarthyism. Instead of reds under the bed we now have priests in the suppy closet as the enemy du jour. There's about as much reality underpinning this campagin as there was during the McCarthy purges and just as high a likelyhood that good people will be hurt in the process.

username123 · 05-08-2012 10:15pm

freedominacup wrote: »

Where did the posters who are so vehement in their opposition go to school?

I was sent to a convent school until age 10. Only changed because we moved. I remember my school days up to the age of 10 with absolute horror. I remember being beaten til I pissed on myself and then screamed at for being a dirty little girl. I remember with clarity the utter cruelty of some of the nuns. I also remember the pointless religious posturing, processions, films, cleaning up of the grotto for May the month of Mary. Even at a very young age I was asking questions and being told not to ask such things. Ridiculous.

Strangely, my father had been beaten and even hospitalised by christian brothers himself yet sent us to religious orders schools. My brother was in a neighbouring christian brothers and suffered a stress related condition that cleared up when he changed school after our move.

Anyway, I just wanted to make the point that in the past the best education was available from schools run by religious orders so my parents thought they were doing the next best to a private education for us, despite the beatings. Its not like that today. Also my parents wouldnt have been educated enough themselves to ask questions as to the silliness of religion, society was simply different. Cultural change happens over generations and currently the catholic church do not have the stranglehold over this country that they did in the past.

Its a good thing that there is a move against religion in schools, it is progression as a society and a reflection of the higher education of the populace as a whole.

There are many examples reported in the media and online where examples of school selection policies being based on a baptismal cert are well documented.

I dont think anyone has any issue with catholic schools, as privately run institutions. Its the tax payers purse funding the nonsense thats the issue. The reference to McCarthyism is a bit hysterical tbh, its simply that it state funded institutions for educating children shouldnt be peddling myth and superstition as fact.

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