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Opinions on Educate Together

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13

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    #62
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Finnbar01 wrote: »
    I have nothing against choice whatsoever. AFAIK, surveys carry out suggested that a majority of parents want their children to recieve religious instruction in school. If that is their choice, then the state has a duty to uphold it.

    Really?
    Got any links?


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    #63
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Finnbar01 wrote: »
    Anyways, have you been schooled or should I say, indoctrinated, to believe that religious schools are bad?

    Can i ask Finbarr01,

    Firstly do you think that teaching history (including evolution, dinosaurs etc), geography (formation of the planet, plate tech-tonics), science/physics (big bang stuff, CERN..LHC etc) are all suitable subjects in schools?

    Now, after you've answered the above do you think teaching any religion specifically one which is wholly based around a man who was born to a virgin (this goes against all facts, biology etc) amongst all the other myths and superstitions being presented as facts belong beside actual stuff that can be proven?

    Lets not forget that the above belief system also generally belittles other belief systems at the same time, its clear Catholicism and for that matter any religion has no place in our education system and as such should be separate and left up to parents, priests and so called Sunday schools.

    This is the fairest system for all parents regardless of the belief system they follow.

    In relation to tax payer money and use of school resources and time, taking time out of the school year to "prepare" kids for a religious event (communion) is a incredible waste of school time and resources and as such all preparation should take place outside of school time.

    Of course you and me know that if this did have to happen many parents wouldn't actually be pushed to go through with the whole event as many just feel pushed into it because of the mob mentality of not wanting to have their kid left out in school.

    If the event wasn't discussed in school and wasn't arranged in school this would not longer be an issue and no longer would parents feel pressured into it.


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    #64
    tar_man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2 ✭tar_man


    Though lots of people don't prefer ET schools no-one said they shouldn't exist. There is an ET school, if you want to send your kids there you can. If you can get enough people who share your views you can even set up another ET school.

    But why should people who want to send their children to a standard Catholic school be stopped from doing so? I want to send my kids to a Gaelscoil. I certainly don't think English language schools should be banned.

    Religion never caused anyone to be burned at the stake. It was an intolerance of other peoples views that led to deaths.

    As I said I consider myself an atheist, but I am tolerant of the views of religious people. I know people who are well informed, intelligent, tolerant, kind, and religious. It is possible to be all these things.

    I don't want my children to think their world view is inherently superior, whether that world view is atheist/religious or whatever.

    So fine, send your kids to an ET. I'll stump up my fair share of taxes. But show the same respect to other parents who chose a different school.

    Live and let live.


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    #65
    freedominacup
    Registered Users Posts: 7,920 ✭✭✭freedominacup


    tar_man wrote: »
    Live and let live.

    On this topic, on any internet forum in this country. Good luck with that. Your tolerance puts you in a small minority amongst the atheist posters on this or any other forum I've experienced.


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    #66
    bradknowell
    Registered Users Posts: 739 ✭✭✭bradknowell


    freedominacup wrote: »
    On this topic, on any internet forum in this country. Good luck with that. Your tolerance puts you in a small minority amongst the atheist posters on this or any other forum I've eperienced.
    As an atheist , I totally agree with you.


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    #67
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    tar_man wrote: »
    Though lots of people don't prefer ET schools no-one said they shouldn't exist. There is an ET school, if you want to send your kids there you can. If you can get enough people who share your views you can even set up another ET school.

    Sounds great, in an ideal situation....
    However in many cases a ET school might be a 40-70min bus ride away in many parts of Ireland,

    As for starting a school its not as easy as you think and it certainly costs alot.
    But why should people who want to send their children to a standard Catholic school be stopped from doing so? I want to send my kids to a Gaelscoil. I certainly don't think English language schools should be banned.

    Nobody's stopping their kid from getting an education and still learning their religion, however education belongs in school and religion as it is very much a personal thing belongs outside of the state education system (church and state should be separate after all).

    Religion should be left to the parents (as they want their child to be brought up in the faith), priests and so called Sunday schools.

    If being catholic (or for that matter any faith) is that important to the parents they will only see the change in school as a minor thing as they'll likely attend mass etc every week anyway.

    I've had this discussion with many catholic parents and their response tends to be "its not a big deal", the example I tend to give them is..

    "Ok, so you want your kid to be brought up a catholic but your local state run/funded school is "insert other faith here such as muslin etc", the nearest alternative school is a 90min journey away so you effectively have no other choice, what would you want?

    Their response in the vast majority of discussions I've had tends to be:

    "oh, well that's different".

    The thing is, it isn't in anyway different for somebody that doesn't want their kid to be force fed a faith they don't believe in and pays tax towards this force feeding.
    Religion never caused anyone to be burned at the stake. It was an intolerance of other peoples views that led to deaths.

    Errr, well yes it kinda did,
    If you look at modern events you'll see that the vatican (the head of the catholic church) has apologized for its passed actions in relation to many cases.

    Sadly for more recent events they still haven't taken meaningful actions.
    As I said I consider myself an atheist, but I am tolerant of the views of religious people. I know people who are well informed, intelligent, tolerant, kind, and religious. It is possible to be all these things.

    I don't want my children to think their world view is inherently superior, whether that world view is atheist/religious or whatever.

    I'm also tolerant, in that I would ensure that my child would be aware of all faiths and what they actually involve,

    Now if in later life they (for example) decided that they'd like to be a quaker as this seemed to fit their lifestyle then that will be their decision and it will be an informed one, whilst I may not be 100% happy about it atleast it will have been their decision.

    My problem is with religion being forced upon children who are never given a choice,

    As I've said before this happens with many parents because they feel pressured into it and don't want to rock the boat or cause their kid to be different in school by pulling them out of religion classes/communion.


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    #68
    Finnbar01
    Registered Users Posts: 2,064 ✭✭✭Finnbar01


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Can i ask Finbarr01,

    Firstly do you think that teaching history (including evolution, dinosaurs etc), geography (formation of the planet, plate tech-tonics), science/physics (big bang stuff, CERN..LHC etc) are all suitable subjects in schools?

    Yes, of course they are suitable subjects.
    Now, after you've answered the above do you think teaching any religion specifically one which is wholly based around a man who was born to a virgin (this goes against all facts, biology etc) amongst all the other myths and superstitions being presented as facts belong beside actual stuff that can be proven?

    Lets not forget that the above belief system also generally belittles other belief systems at the same time, its clear Catholicism and for that matter any religion has no place in our education system and as such should be separate and left up to parents, priests and so called Sunday schools.

    That's not the point I am making about religious education (whether God exists or not). If parents (who are in the majority) want their children to receive religious education in schools, than the state is required to provide for it.
    In relation to tax payer money and use of school resources and time, taking time out of the school year to "prepare" kids for a religious event (communion) is a incredible waste of school time and resources and as such all preparation should take place outside of school time.

    See my point above.
    Of course you and me know that if this did have to happen many parents wouldn't actually be pushed to go through with the whole event as many just feel pushed into it because of the mob mentality of not wanting to have their kid left out in school.

    If the event wasn't discussed in school and wasn't arranged in school this would not longer be an issue and no longer would parents feel pressured into it.

    How do you know that. If you ask me, some parents want communions and confirmations as an excuse for a p*ss up.

    Anyways, we're going nowhere with this and it doesn't matter, as legisalation is being brought about to allow non religious schools come into existance, so parents will have even more choice.


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    #69
    angelfalling
    Registered Users Posts: 201 ✭✭angelfalling


    "If parents (who are in the majority) want their children to receive religious education in schools, than the state is required to provide for it."

    Why is that?



    Also, I know plenty of parents who have christened their babies only because of fear they won't get places in schools later down the road.


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    #70
    Finnbar01
    Registered Users Posts: 2,064 ✭✭✭Finnbar01


    angelfalling wrote: »
    "If parents (who are in the majority) want their children to receive religious education in schools, than the state is required to provide for it."

    Why is that?

    Because we live in a democracy.

    I'm not saying that's ideal (a democracy that is) but that's the way it works.


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    #71
    eyescreamcone
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,562 ✭✭✭eyescreamcone


    I wonder how all those who support state funded religious schools would feel if they lived in a rural area - and the only show in town was a Scientology school.

    Would you be happy to let Little Tommy sit down the back of the class colouring while the Scientologists played their mind games on the rest of the class??

    In place of Scientology please feel free to use any other religion/sect/cult (same thing) that you can think of.


    Religion should not be allowed in state funded schools - as per the USA.
    Teach only facts in school, except for fiction related courses where the students are taught that fiction IS fiction.
    Obviously outside of school hours children can be "taught" about their parents particular religion.

    But the state should not pay for fiction to be taught as fact!!!


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    #72
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    eyescreamcone wrote: »

    Would you be happy to let Little Tommy sit down the back of the class colouring while the Scientologists played their mind games on the rest of the class??
    .

    I wouldn't give two hoots if that school also had the best maths results in the area. Heck join in with it. This is what is wrong with education in Ireland today. Priorites gone skew-ways. It is so low on my priority list it doesn't register. But I will tear their maths courses to bits trying to find the best teachers for that subject.

    OP, look at the maths english and language results of the students. Base your decision on that, and absolutely nothing else. The rest is window dressing.


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    #73
    eyescreamcone
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,562 ✭✭✭eyescreamcone


    pwurple wrote: »
    I wouldn't give two hoots if that school also had the best maths results in the area. Heck join in with it. This is what is wrong with education in Ireland today. Priorites gone skew-ways. It is so low on my priority list it doesn't register. But I will tear their maths courses to bits trying to find the best teachers for that subject.

    OP, look at the maths english and language results of the students. Base your decision on that, and absolutely nothing else. The rest is window dressing.

    Would it not be better so to spend an extra 2.5 hours per week teaching important subjects like Maths and English (don't get me started on PE), insteading of wasting this time teaching fairy tales???
    Feel free to increase this 2.5 hours (as outlined in the curriculum) to whatever for the Communion and Confirmation classes.

    What a waste of time for the students (not to mention tax payers money)


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    #74
    Dan133269
    Registered Users Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭Dan133269


    Finnbar01 wrote: »
    If parents (who are in the majority) want their children to receive religious education in schools, than the state is required to provide for it.
    Finnbar01 wrote: »
    Because we live in a democracy.

    I'm not saying that's ideal (a democracy that is) but that's the way it works.

    This is something you have stated about 3 times. Because people want their children to receive religious education in schools, then the state is required to provide for it because we live in a democracy, you say. However, what the Constitution provides for is freedom of religion, and implicitly, freedom from religion. The Constitution contains safeguards to ensure that people receive basic fundamental rights regardless of the policy of the government.

    So, just because most Irish people say they want their children to have religious instruction in school, this doesn't trump the rights of those parents who want non-religious education for their children.

    To give an example if the Government wanted all Jewish people to go around wearing stars of David on their arm, this wouldn't be allowed, even if the majority of Irish people supported it. This is because certain rights are inalienable, they are so important that they cannot be dispensed with just because other people want preferential treatment for their own circumstances, be it religion or anything else.

    EDIT: This is a chapter from my dissertation on Church-State separation. It deals with some of the issues relating to religious education/religious instruction in public schools.
    http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2030264


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    #75
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    I think it's quality rather than quantity when it comes to maths in particular. But either way, religion is still taught in the ET schools, just in a different way. The educate together schools in my area have a reputation for spending more of their time teaching english to non-native english speakers, than addressing maths. Their maths results are poor. They were ruled out for us for that reason.


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    #76
    freedominacup
    Registered Users Posts: 7,920 ✭✭✭freedominacup


    angelfalling wrote: »
    Also, I know plenty of parents who have christened their babies only because of fear they won't get places in schools later down the road.

    In Portlaw? Seriously?:rolleyes:


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    #77
    Dan133269
    Registered Users Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭Dan133269


    freedominacup wrote: »
    In Portlaw? Seriously?:rolleyes:

    In fact, it is more likely for a child to be refused admission to a denominational school in a rural area as they are more "clicky" and traditional in terms of religion. I don't know why you put in a rolleyes smiley, if you think that this isn't an issue, there are plenty of television and radio debates that have been devoted to it with anecdotal evidence of exactly this situation happening. There was a Front Line episode devoted to it a year or 2 ago as well I believe.


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    #78
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    "clique"!

    My sister and hubby decided to get their daughter christened for the sake of the local school. Neither of them has a religious bone in their body, I was a little disapproving but of course its their call!


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    #79
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    mike65 wrote: »
    "clique"!

    My sister and hubby decided to get their daughter christened for the sake of the local school. Neither of them has a religious bone in their body, I was a little disapproving but of course its their call!

    Happening all the time up and down the country and is a complete abuse of power and taxpayers money, including taxes from those parents having to undergo this subterfuge, in order to get their kids into the school nearest to them that should be theirs by right.


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    #80
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    mike65 wrote: »
    My sister and hubby decided to get their daughter christened for the sake of the local school. Neither of them has a religious bone in their body, I was a little disapproving but of course its their call!

    Its an awful decision for any parents to make and one that is all too common these days, as pointed out above already it is certainly a factor in some areas (especially high populated area;s but also rural area's too) where a school will give first pref to a catholic over a non catholic.

    This in itself is wrong when the primary function of the school is education, not religious studies. It proves beyond that kids are not being treated as equal when they should be,.


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    #81
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    No one type of school is "better" than another. A school is only as good as its community- staff, parents, children.

    I would encourage any parent to actually visit any school they think they might want to send their child to, down the line.

    Just to mention that ET schools and Gaelscoileanna under the Foras are multi-denom, not non denom.


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    #82
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    Finnbar01 wrote: »
    If you don't know what I mean, why comment on it than?

    To give you a chance to clarify/explain?
    Finnbar01 wrote: »
    I fully understand why people pay taxes. And when those people pay for it, they usually call the shots. Get it?

    Oh, you dont understand it then. Atheists pay taxes too. So do Protestants, Muslims, Jews and all the other religions in this country.
    Finnbar01 wrote: »
    You do not know what schooling I've had.

    I could make a fairly well educated guess based on the lack of clarity and explanation in the reasoning processes displayed here.
    Finnbar01 wrote: »
    Anyways, have you been schooled or should I say, indoctrinated, to believe that religious schools are bad?

    Fortunately the method of rational enquiry that allows someone to see beyond mere sheep like indoctrination is not, in and of itself, indoctrination.

    I dont believe religious schools are bad. I believe religion is a fiction and if people want their children to be taught myth and superstition alongside fact and presented as such, they are entitled to do so. But not on taxpayers money. If people wish to indoctrinate their children then they are totally welcome to do so, but not in the public education system, it is not an appropriate vehicle for religious instruction and despite your repeated assertions that 'it should happen because we live in a democracy' you have failed to provide any valid reasoning behind this and are just making a mindless assertion, much like the mindless assertions made by religions (and not just Catholicism). Just because you say something does not make it true. In effect your posts seem to be saying 'i want a catholic education to be available to my child because i am a tax payer and we live in a democracy' - can you see that there is no rational reasoning being made here? What about non religious people who are also tax payers and do not want this? What about the waste of tax payers money teaching fiction in schools? What about a modern secular progressive society? What about catering for the multi culturalism that now exists in our society and not just ramming catholicism down peoples throats?


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    #83
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    At the moment there is no provision for non-denomschools in Ireland, even ET/multi denom must teach about religions.


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    #84
    7upfree
    Registered Users Posts: 2,124 ✭✭✭7upfree


    mike65 wrote: »
    Christ on a bike - you'd think Atheism was a crime committed by cranks reading some of this thread.

    Schools should be non-religious in every aspect, keep Church (any church) in Church or the home.

    I was educated in the Presentation. The religious aspect didn't do me any harm. When the Brits had us under the cosh we wouldnt of had an education it it wasnt for the nuns. The Brits spend enough time trying to crush religion without doing it ourselves.


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    #85
    bradknowell
    Registered Users Posts: 739 ✭✭✭bradknowell


    7upfree wrote: »
    I was educated in the Presentation. The religious aspect didn't do me any harm. When the Brits had us under the cosh we wouldnt of had an education it it wasnt for the nuns. The Brits spend enough time trying to crush religion without doing it ourselves.

    Pregnant nation. Supposedly mini hopper was a mad yoke. Think that was her name anyways.


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    #86
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    7upfree wrote: »
    I was educated in the Presentation. The religious aspect didn't do me any harm. When the Brits had us under the cosh we wouldnt of had an education it it wasnt for the nuns. The Brits spend enough time trying to crush religion without doing it ourselves.

    That is a line that is trotted out all the time and is simply not true. We would have had the exact same education opportunites that pertained in the United Kingdom at the time of our independance . How we choose to develop after that was ours to decide.

    It is the Catholic Church that opposed what was on offer and the Brits as you call them caved and gave in to them . That is how the church got hold of education and later and in a similar way got control of health.

    The joke is the Church controlled the system and got credit for it and built up this myth of providing education where none was on offer and we the taxpayer got to pay for it and had little or no say in the running of it.


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    #87
    freedominacup
    Registered Users Posts: 7,920 ✭✭✭freedominacup


    Dan133269 wrote: »
    In fact, it is more likely for a child to be refused admission to a denominational school in a rural area as they are more "clicky" and traditional in terms of religion.

    In fact you are speaking out of what you're sitting on. There isn't a rural school in Ireland that would ever turn down someone looking to enroll their child. It's always a struggle to keep numbers up to the level required to keep the teachers they have. Hence the rolleyes here's one for you as well.:rolleyes: Just so that you don't feel left out.


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    #88
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    freedominacup wrote: »
    In fact you are speaking out of what you're sitting on. There isn't a rural school in Ireland that would ever turn down someone looking to enroll their child. It's always a struggle to keep numbers up to the level required to keep the teachers they have. Hence the rolleyes here's one for you as well.:rolleyes: Just so that you don't feel left out.

    Your assumption is very wide spread, not all rural schools are crying out for extra kids so instead they can pick and choose. Not all rural schools are 20miles away from the nearest house you know ;)

    Also while we're at it, what about rural schools rejecting kids based on the kids not being "in-line" with their religious beliefs?....this has also happened and actually only a matter of months ago this was in the news.


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    #89
    7upfree
    Registered Users Posts: 2,124 ✭✭✭7upfree


    marienbad wrote: »
    That is a line that is trotted out all the time and is simply not true. We would have had the exact same education opportunites that pertained in the United Kingdom at the time of our independance . How we choose to develop after that was ours to decide.

    Have you actually read the history of our country? And what happened BEFORE independence? We were under the cosh - plain and simple. A manufactured famine. We should now have a population of twelve million. The British/English did all they could to crush the Catholic (majority) population underfoot.

    Were it not for the likes of Ed Rice and Nano Nagle God nows what would have become of us. Short memories indeed.


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    #90
    7upfree
    Registered Users Posts: 2,124 ✭✭✭7upfree


    Cabaal wrote: »
    In relation to tax payer money and use of school resources and time, taking time out of the school year to "prepare" kids for a religious event (communion) is a incredible waste of school time and resources and as such all preparation should take place outside of school time.

    It's a pity the critics of Religious schools don't grow a pair and stop the children from receiving. Or attending. They'll moan moan moan, and criticise, but do nothing.


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    #91
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    7upfree wrote: »
    It's a pity the critics of Religious schools don't grow a pair and stop the children from receiving. Or attending. They'll moan moan moan, and criticise, but do nothing.

    As we've already discussed...(since you appear to have missed it)

    Many schools up and down the country won't let kids into schools that are not baptized....so in short if a parent doesn't go with the whole religious thing they often have no choice of school for their kids education (unless they travel much further afield).

    No parent should feel pressured into getting their kid baptized etc, especially just to get a education, but thats the way it is in modern Ireland where church and state are supposed to be separate.


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