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Sinn Féin-A responsible thread for adults.

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    #122
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,739 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    FTA69 wrote: »
    Working class people in urban Ireland don't tend to have a high participation in third level education etc, that doesn't however mean people are stupid. Secondly I doubt half of the gobsh*tes voting for Fianna Fáil "cos all my family do" are towering intellects either.

    No but it usually means they havent learned the process of critical thinking, which is pretty essential when trying to dissect exactly what politicians are telling you and used when figuring out who you want to support instead of just supporting whoever tells you exactly what you want to hear


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    #123
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    realies wrote: »
    Laminations wrote: »
    I've said it before. SF are capturing the angry, disillusioned 'in denial' protest vote. It won't last. We'll get a less 'marmite' party emerging which will satisfy that function and then it's bye bye SF, tell the PDs we said hello as you pass them.


    I have said it before ,People have been voting FF/FG/LAB since the foundation of this state people are sick and tired of FG/FF/LAB lies and unfulfilled promises,We need a new political party and at this moment in time SF are the ones pressing the right buttons,A populist party they might be,but sure whats new in this country.nothing changes if nothing changes.

    Which is why sinn fein got elected to form a government, oh wait they didnt


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    #124
    cgarrad
    Registered Users Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭cgarrad


    FTA69 wrote: »
    Working class people in urban Ireland don't tend to have a high participation in third level education etc, that doesn't however mean people are stupid. Secondly I doubt half of the gobsh*tes voting for Fianna Fáil "cos all my family do" are towering intellects either.

    Granted but should people with little grasp of the consequences of the policies they are voting for be allowed to participate?

    Recipe for disaster no matter how politically incorrect.

    Mind you electing a teacher to run the country is also beyond comprehension...


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    #125
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    realies wrote: »
    I have said it before ,People have been voting FF/FG/LAB since the foundation of this state people are sick and tired of FG/FF/LAB lies and unfulfilled promises,We need a new political party and at this moment in time SF are the ones pressing the right buttons,A populist party they might be,but sure whats new in this country.nothing changes if nothing changes.
    Forgetting the shadows of who they actually are for a moment, how exactly does extremely flawed, naive and unworkable economic policy press "the right buttons"?


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    #126
    paddyandy
    Site Banned Posts: 2,037 ✭✭✭paddyandy


    Every Election it's Money Issues but Ireland's problems have less to do with money and more to do with the perceptions we have of each other and with the attitudes we have .People are thinking mostly about money when politics is around .'Law and Order' only makes living together as a community possible but it's down the list all the time .Promise us money and we'll vote for you .We get the politicians we deserve .


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    #127
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    cgarrad wrote: »
    Granted but should people with little grasp of the consequences of the policies they are voting for be allowed to participate?

    Recipe for disaster no matter how politically incorrect.

    Mind you electing a teacher to run the country is also beyond comprehension...

    And who defines who has the capacity to make a correct decision on the matter of consequences? You?

    Why is the opinion of a construction worker, or care-assistant or a binman any less then that of an accountant or a teacher? Spending three or four years in UCD doesn't make you a more intelligent person than someone who didn't. Neither does it mean you have a greater capacity to make an informed political decision.

    As I said above, the single most important factor in Irish voting behaviour is filial tradition, i.e. "my grandad was Fine Gael and so am I". At least people who voted for Sinn Féin often did so because of the community work they did. A far more valid reason than the former.

    To be honest your opinion smacks of snobbery and the notion that the Irish upper-middle class are a superior breed to the plebs underneath. It's complete nonsense to be honest. And what's even more gas is that it was the "mainstream" parties such as the Blueshirts and Fianna Fáil who made absolute sh*t of the country to begin with.


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    #128
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    VinLieger wrote: »
    No but it usually means they havent learned the process of critical thinking, which is pretty essential when trying to dissect exactly what politicians are telling you and used when figuring out who you want to support instead of just supporting whoever tells you exactly what you want to hear

    And university gives you critical thinking? Does it f*ck. I completed an Arts degree in UCC featuring history and politics and most people in my course wouldn't have known political theory or practice if Karl Marx booted them up the hole. Doing a degree in Biochem or Food Science or Arts (greatest con job ever) does not mean you have a bloody clue about politics or are better enabled to form an opinion than a carpenter or whoever.


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    #129
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    FTA69 wrote: »
    And university gives you critical thinking? Does it f*ck. I completed an Arts degree in UCC featuring history and politics and most people in my course wouldn't have known political theory or practice if Karl Marx booted them up the hole. Doing a degree in Biochem or Food Science or Arts (greatest con job ever) does not mean you have a bloody clue about politics or are better enabled to form an opinion than a carpenter or whoever.

    Critical thinking and logic should really start in secondary school to be honest, along with a proper education about the political system instead of the joke that is CSPE.
    cgarrad wrote:
    It is a fact that the average SF voter is less educated than those that vote for the 3 main parties.

    Surely nobody is arguing that point?

    How is it a fact?


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    #130
    cgarrad
    Registered Users Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭cgarrad


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    How is it a fact?

    Really?


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    #131
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    cgarrad wrote: »
    Really?

    Your statement that all SF voters are less politically educated is impossible to prove. More to the point - I'm inclined to think that it has little relevance.

    I'm sure you'd say that it's implicit because anybody backing SF policies must be less politically educated (if you are arguing that the policies are daft) - but if you did; I would suggest you look at the historic trends of support for ultra-nationalistic or socialist/communist parties and organisations, where, quite often, it was the intelligentsia who made up the backbone of support (Revolutionary France, Revolutionary Russia, Early-Late Weimar, etc.)


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    #132
    Lawrence1895
    Registered Users Posts: 7,627 ✭✭✭Lawrence1895


    cgarrad wrote: »
    It is a fact that the average SF voter is less educated than those that vote for the 3 main parties.

    Surely nobody is arguing that point?

    Any proof? Any link?


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    #133
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    cgarrad wrote: »
    Really?

    Opinions aren't fact or self evident and stating such is against the charter. Don't post in this thread again unless you have some evidence to back up this "fact".

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #134
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    junder wrote: »
    Which is why sinn fein got elected to form a government, oh wait they didn't

    I suppose it will take some time junder,by the way whats it like being governed by SF at the moment ?

    JustinDee wrote: »
    Forgetting the shadows of who they actually are for a moment, how exactly does extremely flawed, naive and unworkable economic policy press "the right buttons"?

    When I said they are pressing the right buttons they are doing what any opposition party will do,I personally cant see any difference they will do if they got into power down here.


    cgarrad wrote: »
    It is a fact that the average SF voter is less educated than those that vote for the 3 main parties.

    Surely nobody is arguing that point?

    What an uneducated post to write I would think the chip on your shoulder weights a ton.


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    #135
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    realies wrote: »
    I suppose it will take some time junder,by the way whats it like being governed by SF at the moment ?

    I'd say it feels like being governed by a large coalition subsidised home rule government.


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    #136
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    junder wrote: »
    Which is why sinn fein got elected to form a government, oh wait they didnt

    So how do Sinn Fein get elected? Are you suggesting that the elections are all rigged against the Alliance Party?? :confused:


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    #137
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    realies wrote: »
    I suppose it will take some time junder,by the way whats it like being governed by SF at the moment ?

    I'd say it feels like being governed by a large coalition subsidised home role government.

    Again, Nail on head. Stormont is s Micky mouse, playhouse were shinners and dupers get to play politican with no real
    Substance, which is why getting into government in the republic is so important to sinn fein but which so far have failed to do and proberly have missed the boat unless of course the republic economy gets worse or the eu implodes


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    #138
    Hannibal
    Registered Users Posts: 1,815 ✭✭✭Hannibal


    junder wrote: »
    Again, Nail on head. Stormont is s Micky mouse, playhouse were shinners and dupers get to play politican with no real
    Substance, which is why getting into government in the republic is so important to sinn fein but which so far have failed to do and proberly have missed the boat unless of course the republic economy gets worse or the eu implodes
    What "republic" is that? The Czech republic??

    SF have missed the boat?? The boat that was a coalition with Labour, FF or FG no thanks. When the next election is called SF will grow again and Labour will collapse back to their usual 10 to 12%.


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    #139
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    Dotsey wrote: »
    junder wrote: »
    Again, Nail on head. Stormont is s Micky mouse, playhouse were shinners and dupers get to play politican with no real
    Substance, which is why getting into government in the republic is so important to sinn fein but which so far have failed to do and proberly have missed the boat unless of course the republic economy gets worse or the eu implodes
    What "republic" is that? The Czech republic??

    SF have missed the boat?? The boat that was a coalition with Labour, FF or FG no thanks. When the next election is called SF will grow again and Labour will collapse back to their usual 10 to 12%.

    Wishful thinking , if sinn fein can't capitalise on mistakes made by the mainstream party what hope have they when things stabilise, bolting the door when the horse had bolted springs to mind, only hope sinn fein have is another major crisis in the 'republic'


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    #140
    The Waltzing Consumer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ruling-expected-next-week-on-doherty-case-556252.html

    Pearse Doherty, who brought the last minute court case against the Referendum Commission, is now trying to avoid paying the costs of the case. His case was thrown out and now he wants others to pay for it. :mad:

    He also said he only brought the case as an individual and it had nothing to do with Sinn Fein despite being used by SF as a campaigning tool.

    They become more and more like FF every day.


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    #141
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    I'd say it feels like being governed by a large coalition subsidised home role government.

    A bit like our 'republic' then.

    The Germans give us the money and enda & co decide how to waste it.

    BTW, what's a 'home role' government?


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    #142
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    A bit like our 'republic' then.

    The Germans give us the money and enda & co decide how to waste it.

    BTW, what's a 'home role' government?

    Think he means Home Rule.


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    #143
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »
    http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ruling-expected-next-week-on-doherty-case-556252.html

    Pearse Doherty, who brought the last minute court case against the Referendum Commission, is now trying to avoid paying the costs of the case. His case was thrown out and now he wants others to pay for it. :mad:

    He also said he only brought the case as an individual and it had nothing to do with Sinn Fein despite being used by SF as a campaigning tool.

    They become more and more like FF every day.

    I think its very important that he was able to take the case and that cost are covered so that anyone can hold the authorities to account on issues like this without fear of a bill should they lose.


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    #144
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,466 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    fasttalkerchat wrote: »
    I think its very important that he was able to take the case and that cost are covered so that anyone can hold the authorities to account on issues like this without fear of a bill should they lose.

    I agree - but this was an SF political stunt, and SF have the funds to pay for such a stunt out of their own pocket as it is.


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    #145
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    I agree - but this was an SF political stunt, and SF have the funds to pay for such a stunt out of their own pocket as it is.

    If a bus driver takes the RSA to court should Bus Eireann pay or should he get legal aid?
    I see your point that SF were linked and could save the government money by paying. If SF were in government I would agree with you but in this case I don't see how they can be forced to pay.


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    #146
    Hannibal
    Registered Users Posts: 1,815 ✭✭✭Hannibal


    junder wrote: »
    Wishful thinking , if sinn fein can't capitalise on mistakes made by the mainstream party what hope have they when things stabilise, bolting the door when the horse had bolted springs to mind, only hope sinn fein have is another major crisis in 'IRELAND'
    SF are capitalising on mistakes, their vote share and representation levels have risen steadily over the last ten years or so and no amount of spin can dispute these facts.


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    #147
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Dotsey wrote: »
    SF are capitalising on mistakes, their vote share and representation levels have risen steadily over the last ten years or so and no amount of spin can dispute these facts.

    The very existence of this thread is testament to the inroads they are making.
    It's just political normalisation at work imo. Absolutely no reason why SF won't eventually come to share power. The Queen swallowing hard and shaking McGuinnesses hand is another wee step along the way. Anyone remember the spluttering and shock horror when it was talked about at the time of the GFA? I remember one DUP loud mouth stating categorically that she NEVER would because the IRA had killed Mountbatten.
    The times they are a changin' for the better. SF always had a committed core of socially minded hard working activists, great to see them get into rightful positions of influence. Ireland matures.


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    #148
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    The very existence of this thread is testament to the inroads they are making.
    It's just political normalisation at work imo. Absolutely no reason why SF won't eventually come to share power. The Queen swallowing hard and shaking McGuinnesses hand is another wee step along the way. Anyone remember the spluttering and shock horror when it was talked about at the time of the GFA? I remember one DUP loud mouth stating categorically that she NEVER would because the IRA had killed Mountbatten.
    The times they are a changin' for the better. SF always had a committed core of socially minded hard working activists, great to see them get into rightful positions of influence. Ireland matures.

    Sinn Fein could be the future here.

    A party that believes in the country of Ireland.

    Although their ideas are different from FG/FF/Lab, who's to say that their way wouldn't work.

    After all, the current government are committed to doing absolutely nothing to stand up for us in Europe.
    All they can do is blame it on 'the mess they inherited'. A bull**** response to every question put to them.

    As for FF, well what can anyone say, the most corrupt/incompetent government(s) we have had since the formation of the state.

    I'm not a SF supporter BTW, more of a floating voter, but I'll watch their policy's develop over the next couple of years and I'll decide closer to the next election.


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    #149
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    I'm not a SF supporter

    Nor am I, although I have voted for them on a local level and in the Pres elections.

    It seems to be their policy to convince people to vote for them once or to vote for them on a local basis. People are seeing more and more that they aren't the blood thirsty bogey men that they thought they where. From what I can see, the policy is working. They are becoming a relevant and normal political entity.
    There are very few places left for even the most blinkered partitionists to hide, although some still are. SF's war is over and they have shown again and again that the footdragging isn't been indulged by them and that they are willing to share equal and fair governance.


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    #150
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Sinn Fein could be the future here.

    A party that believes in the country of Ireland.

    Hard put to find anyone who doesn't believe Ireland exists. :rolleyes:

    I imagine you are referring to a party that is pursuing a united Ireland. That has long been the ambition of most Irish parties; but particularly Fianna Fail, who had intentions of establishing a party base north of the border... that was, until the recession.

    Hell, even the unionist parties have traditionally supported the notion of a united Ireland (albeit within the United Kingdom). Ultimately though the people of this island tend not to be amazingly enthusiastic about the pursuit of a united Ireland; somewhat irrespective of the form it may take.

    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Although their ideas are different from FG/FF/Lab, who's to say that their way wouldn't work.

    Because their figures don't add up.
    gerryo777 wrote: »
    After all, the current government are committed to doing absolutely nothing to stand up for us in Europe.

    That's true I suppose - I personally believe that it's because they are in agreement with the governments of Europe.
    gerryo777 wrote: »
    All they can do is blame it on 'the mess they inherited'. A bull**** response to every question put to them.

    Well, no, that's fair enough. The problem is that they would have likely done exactly the same as the FF coalitions had they been in power at the time.
    gerryo777 wrote: »
    As for FF, well what can anyone say, the most corrupt/incompetent government(s) we have had since the formation of the state.

    No, FF wasn't very corrupt, by any real standards. I wouldn't even label them generally incompetent (fiscal responsibility incompetence?) No; they were weak where they should have been strong, strong where they should have been flexible; blind when it suited them; willing to believe in their own propaganda and the concept of closed shops (both within and without the party). They felt that they had stumbled on a magic formula to secure Ireland's prosperity without ever daring/being bothered to look at the ingredients or whether the effect was mostly placebo.
    gerryo777 wrote: »
    I'm not a SF supporter BTW, more of a floating voter, but I'll watch their policy's develop over the next couple of years and I'll decide closer to the next election.

    I know I've said it before, but for me (and other like me), it's not really to do with their policies.


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    #151
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    Hard put to find anyone who doesn't believe Ireland exists. :rolleyes:

    I imagine you are referring to a party that is pursuing a united Ireland. That has long been the ambition of most Irish parties; but particularly Fianna Fail, who had intentions of establishing a party base north of the border... that was, until the recession.

    Hell, even the unionist parties have traditionally supported the notion of a united Ireland (albeit within the United Kingdom). Ultimately though the people of this island tend not to be amazingly enthusiastic about the pursuit of a united Ireland; somewhat irrespective of the form it may take.




    Because their figures don't add up.



    That's true I suppose - I personally believe that it's because they are in agreement with the governments of Europe.



    Well, no, that's fair enough. The problem is that they would have likely done exactly the same as the FF coalitions had they been in power at the time.



    No, FF wasn't very corrupt, by any real standards. I wouldn't even label them generally incompetent (fiscal responsibility incompetence?) No; they were weak where they should have been strong, strong where they should have been flexible; blind when it suited them; willing to believe in their own propaganda and the concept of closed shops (both within and without the party). They felt that they had stumbled on a magic formula to secure Ireland's prosperity without ever daring/being bothered to look at the ingredients or whether the effect was mostly placebo.



    I know I've said it before, but for me (and other like me), it's not really to do with their policies.

    Funny that you can pull the wool over your eyes about the motives and 'actual effects' of other established parties policies but you can't when it comes to Sinn Fein. Thankfully others are facing up to their myopia and can change their minds and allegiances. :rolleyes:


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