Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Sinn Féin-A responsible thread for adults.

Options
12467

Comments

  • Options
    #92
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    .........

    So, as such, while Sinn Fein continues to espouse the tactics and morals of nationalist-socialist vigilantism, anarchism, and terrorism I will have no need to examine my views on the party's legitimacy.

    ...........

    You've evidence and examples of this?


  • Options
    #93
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    maccored wrote: »
    g'wan explain how SF 'continues' to do those things for me as I dont get it.

    By tacitly approving of bombings, racketeering, laundering, extortion, assassination, civil disobedience, and self-policing (whatever term you would associate with the last one).

    Fianna Fail and Fine Gael have less than salubrious backgrounds - but they drew a line underneath bloodshed in major symbolic ways by changing the names of their parties, clearly pursuing different political agendae, and to a large extent attempting to distance themselves from the shadow of historic events such as the civil war.

    Afaik, Labour never changed its name - but it was also never involved in any of Ireland's bloody history - rather it was individuals who changed their allegiance from their former far-left backgrounds when they entered the political party.

    Sinn Fein did make a significant break with tradition when it decided to have non-absentee members of parliament (north and south). They also have chosen to recognise the legitimacy of the psni. These actions in themselves are laudatory, I suppose, and in doing so they distanced some of their radical members.

    But SF has also never attempted to distance itself from the troubles; indeed it embraces all iconography which encompasses Ireland's worst struggles. It has maintained the (quite anachronistic) party name of the dual-monarchical organisation founded by Griffith; and speaks as if it is the inheritor of the tradition of 1916, not to mention the Troubles. Two of its most senior members were directly involved in the Troubles, but the manner in which the extent of their roles is an unmentionable further diminishes the capacity to draw a line under these events in relation to the party.

    The IRA has clearly been a sectarian and I suppose... even one could say xenophobic group; anarchistic and seriously dangerous. It would be very hard to say that SF condemns the IRA in any way or has even attempted to distance itself from it. Okay, SF has been involved in dialogue and decommissioning but to quote Gerry Adams, "We haven't gone away, you know".

    If SF really did draw a line under the tradition of the Troubles, and walked away from its Easter lilly symbolism - then its policies and principles alone could be discussed. I wouldn't be entirely in favour of those principles, in the same way that I wouldn't be in favour of the socialist party's policies - but that's an entirely different matter altogether.


  • Options
    #94
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    They're "anarchistic", they "espouse the tactics and morals of nationalist-socialist vigilantism".

    They seem to assume whatever quality you want to project on them.
    RandomName2 wrote: »
    .......................
    The IRA has clearly been a sectarian and I suppose... even one could say xenophobic group; anarchistic and seriously dangerous. It would be very hard to say that SF condemns the IRA in any way or has even attempted to distance itself from it. Okay, SF has been involved in dialogue and decommissioning but to quote Gerry Adams, "We haven't gone away, you know".

    ..........

    One of the founders of the provisional movement was a protestant.

    This "xenophobic" Sinn Fein would be the Sinn Fein that takes this as policy....
    http://www.sinnfein.ie/files/2009/Policies_Racism.pdf

    The one with links to the ANC, PLO and the Basques....


  • Options
    #95
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Please stop living in the past. Im on about Sinn Fein of the present.
    RandomName2 wrote: »
    By tacitly approving of bombings, racketeering, laundering, extortion, assassination, civil disobedience, and self-policing (whatever term you would associate with the last one).

    Fianna Fail and Fine Gael have less than salubrious backgrounds - but they drew a line underneath bloodshed in major symbolic ways by changing the names of their parties, clearly pursuing different political agendae, and to a large extent attempting to distance themselves from the shadow of historic events such as the civil war.

    Afaik, Labour never changed its name - but it was also never involved in any of Ireland's bloody history - rather it was individuals who changed their allegiance from their former far-left backgrounds when they entered the political party.

    Sinn Fein did make a significant break with tradition when it decided to have non-absentee members of parliament (north and south). They also have chosen to recognise the legitimacy of the psni. These actions in themselves are laudatory, I suppose, and in doing so they distanced some of their radical members.

    But SF has also never attempted to distance itself from the troubles; indeed it embraces all iconography which encompasses Ireland's worst struggles. It has maintained the (quite anachronistic) party name of the dual-monarchical organisation founded by Griffith; and speaks as if it is the inheritor of the tradition of 1916, not to mention the Troubles. Two of its most senior members were directly involved in the Troubles, but the manner in which the extent of their roles is an unmentionable further diminishes the capacity to draw a line under these events in relation to the party.

    The IRA has clearly been a sectarian and I suppose... even one could say xenophobic group; anarchistic and seriously dangerous. It would be very hard to say that SF condemns the IRA in any way or has even attempted to distance itself from it. Okay, SF has been involved in dialogue and decommissioning but to quote Gerry Adams, "We haven't gone away, you know".

    If SF really did draw a line under the tradition of the Troubles, and walked away from its Easter lilly symbolism - then its policies and principles alone could be discussed. I wouldn't be entirely in favour of those principles, in the same way that I wouldn't be in favour of the socialist party's policies - but that's an entirely different matter altogether.


  • Options
    #96
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    maccored wrote: »
    Please stop living in the past. Im on about Sinn Fein of the present.

    SF of the present celebrate that violent past, commemorate terrorists and terrorist attacks from that violent past and have high ranking members who very much engaged in that violent past. They also have many low ranking members (some of whom no doubt post on these boards) who salivate over that violent past and attend rallies supporting a continuation of 'the armed struggle'. SF has made no attempt to cleanse its membership so how different really is the SF of today from the SF of 20 years ago if all of those old blowhards still remain?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #97
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    Laminations wrote: »
    SF of the present celebrate that violent past, commemorate terrorists and terrorist attacks from that violent past and have high ranking members who very much engaged in that violent past. They also have many low ranking members (some of whom no doubt post on these boards) who salivate over that violent past and attend rallies supporting a continuation of 'the armed struggle'. SF has made no attempt to cleanse its membership so how different really is the SF of today from the SF of 20 years ago if all of those old blowhards still remain?

    And FF and FG don't have a history before 1930?


  • Options
    #98
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    fasttalkerchat wrote: »
    And FF and FG don't have a history before 1930?

    You know the difference between Recent history that people alive have lived through and the history that is generations past? What current members of those parties were engaged in violence per-1930? What rallies do these parties have/attend celebrating this violent past and encouraging more violence? What terrorists do they honour?


  • Options
    #99
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    maccored wrote: »
    Please stop living in the past. Im on about Sinn Fein of the present.

    Well yes - exactly. :pac:

    http://www.rsf.ie/100years.htm

    http://www.sinnfeinbookshop.com/unbowed-and-unbroken-tyrone-prisoners-stories/

    http://republicanyouth.ie/2008/08/20/1916-and-1981-unbroken-struggle/

    http://sinnfeinkeepleft.blogspot.ie/2010/09/unbroken-chain-escape-of-vol-tom-malone.html

    http://irishstruggle.blogspot.ie/2005/11/nov-2-1986-sinn-fin-reconstitutes.html

    Just so you know I didn't actually look at the contents of these pages; I just did a google search and posted the links to the top five pages.


  • Options
    #100
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    Well yes - exactly. :pac:

    http://www.rsf.ie/100years.htm

    http://www.sinnfeinbookshop.com/unbowed-and-unbroken-tyrone-prisoners-stories/

    http://republicanyouth.ie/2008/08/20/1916-and-1981-unbroken-struggle/

    http://sinnfeinkeepleft.blogspot.ie/2010/09/unbroken-chain-escape-of-vol-tom-malone.html

    http://irishstruggle.blogspot.ie/2005/11/nov-2-1986-sinn-fin-reconstitutes.html

    Just so you know I didn't actually look at the contents of these pages; I just did a google search and posted the links to the top five pages.

    You might want to look into rsf... its not Sinn Fein. Sinn Fein Book shop is linked to Sinn Fein though so thats one.


  • Options
    #101
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Nodin wrote: »
    They're "anarchistic", they "espouse the tactics and morals of nationalist-socialist vigilantism".

    They seem to assume whatever quality you want to project on them.



    One of the founders of the provisional movement was a protestant.

    This "xenophobic" Sinn Fein would be the Sinn Fein that takes this as policy....
    http://www.sinnfein.ie/files/2009/Policies_Racism.pdf

    The one with links to the ANC, PLO and the Basques....

    The two aren't mutually exclusive.

    SF sees natural affiliation with the "downtrodden and repressed" and also believes in the philosophy that "my enemy's enemy is my friend". Also like all ultra-nationalist organisations it likes binary opposition; to develop an idea of itself through opposition with a cultural antagonist.

    The Nazi Party maintained strong dialogue and allegiances with groups and governments in Italy, Bulgaria, Iraq, Spain, Finland, Croatia, Slovakia, Netherlands, Norway, Japan, Romania, Austria and France. Europe united against the Red menace (or words to that effect) I believe one of their main posters read. One could hardly use this example of multiculturalism and broad political international connections as a reasonable counterexample to manner in which their entire MO was predicated on a war of annihilation with the Bolshevik Jewish/Slav enemy.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #102
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Did you live through that violent past? Do you have a balls notion of what was happening in the north? Dont you realise that time will 'cleanse' its membership? When do they commemorate terrorists? Doesn't Britain etc commemorate terrorists when they commemorate the war dead?

    Why dont you admit you just dont like democracy and the fact SF are growing in power?
    Laminations wrote: »
    SF of the present celebrate that violent past, commemorate terrorists and terrorist attacks from that violent past and have high ranking members who very much engaged in that violent past. They also have many low ranking members (some of whom no doubt post on these boards) who salivate over that violent past and attend rallies supporting a continuation of 'the armed struggle'. SF has made no attempt to cleanse its membership so how different really is the SF of today from the SF of 20 years ago if all of those old blowhards still remain?


  • Options
    #103
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    The Nazi Party maintained strong dialogue and allegiances with groups and governments in Italy, Bulgaria, Iraq, Spain, Finland, Croatia, Slovakia, Netherlands, Norway, Japan, Romania, Austria and France. Europe united against the Red menace (or words to that effect) I believe one of their main posters read.

    Godwins law wins again.


  • Options
    #104
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    one link to a SF bookshop ... history books are usually written about past events. i fail to see your point tbh.
    RandomName2 wrote: »
    Well yes - exactly. :pac:

    http://www.rsf.ie/100years.htm

    http://www.sinnfeinbookshop.com/unbowed-and-unbroken-tyrone-prisoners-stories/

    http://republicanyouth.ie/2008/08/20/1916-and-1981-unbroken-struggle/

    http://sinnfeinkeepleft.blogspot.ie/2010/09/unbroken-chain-escape-of-vol-tom-malone.html

    http://irishstruggle.blogspot.ie/2005/11/nov-2-1986-sinn-fin-reconstitutes.html

    Just so you know I didn't actually look at the contents of these pages; I just did a google search and posted the links to the top five pages.


  • Options
    #105
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    Well yes - exactly. :pac:

    http://www.rsf.ie/100years.htm

    http://www.sinnfeinbookshop.com/unbowed-and-unbroken-tyrone-prisoners-stories/

    http://republicanyouth.ie/2008/08/20/1916-and-1981-unbroken-struggle/

    http://sinnfeinkeepleft.blogspot.ie/2010/09/unbroken-chain-escape-of-vol-tom-malone.html

    http://irishstruggle.blogspot.ie/2005/11/nov-2-1986-sinn-fin-reconstitutes.html

    Just so you know I didn't actually look at the contents of these pages; I just did a google search and posted the links to the top five pages.

    Sad, Lazy post!
    Adds nothing to this thread.


  • Options
    #106
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    maccored wrote: »
    Godwins law wins again.

    I know. :o

    But it's true for a reason. The reason my be hyperbole or simplicity of explanation. There's no reason imo to avoid its use in relation to the latter. Alternatively we could start referring to more exotic, less appropriate examples just to break Godwin's.

    maccored wrote: »
    one link to a SF bookshop ... history books are usually written about past events. i fail to see your point tbh.

    Well tbf I didn't actually look at any of those pages. But if you cannot see that SF is absolutely steeped in the past, uses the Troubles (and somewhat inappropriately the War of Independence) to define its identity, then no source I produce will have much effect on your pov.


  • Options
    #107
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    maccored wrote: »
    Dont you realise that time will 'cleanse' its membership?

    Well you could actively try and renew the party from its violent past but if time is what it takes then time is what it will take for the majority of people to consider SF as a viable party (and thats aside from their policies).
    When do they commemorate terrorists?

    http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/local/sinn_fein_forced_to_change_venue_for_hunger_strike_event_1_2568264
    Doesn't Britain etc commemorate terrorists when they commemorate the war dead?

    Watch out behind you!! It's the Brits!

    We aren't voting for any British parties do it doesn't matter if they worship Satan.
    Why dont you admit you just dont like democracy and the fact SF are growing in power?

    Democracy is a fine thing. It's allows us to voice our opinion on SF and even vote them out of existence.


  • Options
    #108
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    The two aren't mutually exclusive.

    SF sees natural affiliation with the "downtrodden and repressed" and also believes in the philosophy that "my enemy's enemy is my friend". Also like all ultra-nationalist organisations it likes binary opposition; to develop an idea of itself through opposition with a cultural antagonist.

    The Nazi Party maintained strong dialogue and allegiances with groups and governments in Italy, Bulgaria, Iraq, Spain, Finland, Croatia, Slovakia, Netherlands, Norway, Japan, Romania, Austria and France. Europe united against the Red menace (or words to that effect) I believe one of their main posters read.

    Jesus, have you a dose of the 'verbal diarrhea' this morning?


  • Options
    #109
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    Laminations wrote: »

    Democracy is a fine thing. It's allows us to voice our opinion on SF and even vote them out of existence.

    That's working well if any of the recent polls are anything to go by.


  • Options
    #110
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    That's working well if any of the recent polls are anything to go by.

    I've said it before. SF are capturing the angry, disillusioned 'in denial' protest vote. It won't last. We'll get a less 'marmite' party emerging which will satisfy that function and then it's bye bye SF, tell the PDs we said hello as you pass them.


  • Options
    #111
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    Laminations wrote: »
    gerryo777 wrote: »
    That's working well if any of the recent polls are anything to go by.

    I've said it before. SF are capturing the angry, disillusioned 'in denial' protest vote. It won't last. We'll get a less 'marmite' party emerging which will satisfy that function and then it's bye bye SF, tell the PDs we said hello as you pass them.


    Pretty much Nail on head there, even with such a dire state of affairs in the republic, sinn fein has not really made any headway, as things stabilise in the republic those protest votes will fall away. Chances are sinn fein has reached its high water mark and the partys wave has broke and is starting to roll back


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #112
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    maccored wrote: »
    Godwins law wins again.

    "Sinn Féin-A responsible thread for adults."

    This is exactly what allows us to be censored.


  • Options
    #113
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    The two aren't ............Slav enemy.

    So much for "a responsible thread for adults".


  • Options
    #114
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,779 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    junder wrote: »
    Pretty much Nail on head there, even with such a dire state of affairs in the republic, sinn fein has not really made any headway, as things stabilise in the republic those protest votes will fall away. Chances are sinn fein has reached its high water mark and the partys wave has broke and is starting to roll back

    This, also since they arent in power SF have the oppurtunity to take the populist side of every argument which makes them sound appealing to their uneducated base as they are telling them exactly what they want to hear. However guess what governing is not as easy as SF would have you believe and every issue on the table isnt a simple black or white argument


  • Options
    #115
    whitelines
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 159 ✭✭whitelines


    VinLieger wrote: »
    This, also since they arent in power SF have the oppurtunity to take the populist side of every argument which makes them sound appealing to their uneducated base as they are telling them exactly what they want to hear. However guess what governing is not as easy as SF would have you believe and every issue on the table isnt a simple black or white argument

    They think they know about government because they are 'in power' in NI. The reality is that The UK State is there to hold their hand if anything goes wrong. Very different from governing a modern state with all that entails.


  • Options
    #116
    Hannibal
    Registered Users Posts: 1,815 ✭✭✭Hannibal


    VinLieger wrote: »
    This, also since they arent in power SF have the oppurtunity to take the populist side of every argument which makes them sound appealing to their uneducated base as they are telling them exactly what they want to hear. However guess what governing is not as easy as SF would have you believe and every issue on the table isnt a simple black or white argument
    Snobbery at it's finest.

    Meanwhile the educated parties have the country sailing straight down the toilet.


  • Options
    #117
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,779 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Dotsey wrote: »
    Snobbery at it's finest.

    Meanwhile the educated parties have the country sailing straight down the toilet.

    I meant politically uneducated and apologise for any offense, however alot of their supporters will take everything they say as gospel and not even think to look and research the opposing viewpoint to see if they agree or dont, or if even SF viewpoints are economically/politically/legally possible, they just take them as fact because they sound good and want to believe in SF's easy way out
    Although this could also be applied to every party right now and specifically FF from the past 20 years.
    Basically everyone needs to become more politically savy and not just believe everything we are told just because we like what we hear


  • Options
    #118
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    VinLieger wrote: »
    I meant politically uneducated and apologise for any offense, however alot of their supporters will take everything they say as gospel and not even think to look and research the opposing viewpoint to see if they agree or dont, or if even SF viewpoints are economically/politically/legally possible, they just take them as fact because they sound good and want to believe in SF's easy way out
    Although this could also be applied to every party right now and specifically FF from the past 20 years.
    Basically everyone needs to become more politically savy and not just believe everything we are told just because we like what we hear

    You can apply that logic to FF/FG/LAB & Dana supporters, It quite annoys me to hear a lot of posters on boards.ie saying that SF are only getting the uneductaed votes etc I have never heard that being said when the same votes where putting FG/FF/LAB in power,IMO the divide between people living in Ireland is getting wider and the end result will not be happy one.


  • Options
    #119
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    Laminations wrote: »
    I've said it before. SF are capturing the angry, disillusioned 'in denial' protest vote. It won't last. We'll get a less 'marmite' party emerging which will satisfy that function and then it's bye bye SF, tell the PDs we said hello as you pass them.


    I have said it before ,People have been voting FF/FG/LAB since the foundation of this state people are sick and tired of FG/FF/LAB lies and unfulfilled promises,We need a new political party and at this moment in time SF are the ones pressing the right buttons,A populist party they might be,but sure whats new in this country.nothing changes if nothing changes.


  • Options
    #120
    cgarrad
    Registered Users Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭cgarrad


    It is a fact that the average SF voter is less educated than those that vote for the 3 main parties.

    Surely nobody is arguing that point?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #121
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    cgarrad wrote: »
    It is a fact that the average SF voter is less educated than those that vote for the 3 main parties.

    Surely nobody is arguing that point?

    Working class people in urban Ireland don't tend to have a high participation in third level education etc, that doesn't however mean people are stupid. Secondly I doubt half of the gobsh*tes voting for Fianna Fáil "cos all my family do" are towering intellects either.


Advertisement