Ireland v Scotland -Aviva Stadium - Saturday 10th March 5pm

Tox56 · 08-03-2012 4:24pm

Is it an accurate presumption to make that Jennings will be on the bench instead of Henry?

If this is the case, I give up.

thomond2006 · 08-03-2012 4:25pm

RoundBox11 wrote: »

Shane Jennings called up. Heard it on the radio a few minutes ago

ah here, that's a disgrace if he is in ahead of Henry.

JRant · 08-03-2012 4:32pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

RoundBox11 wrote: »

Shane Jennings called up. Heard it on the radio a few minutes ago

ah here, that's a disgrace if he is in ahead of Henry.

It would seem the Ulster lads are not well thought of by the current management.

MungBean · 08-03-2012 4:34pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

ah here, that's a disgrace if he is in ahead of Henry.

Its POM's first start though, you cant realistically have no experienced cover on the bench when blooding a new player. As much as I'd like Henry to be there if he was we wouldnt really have any cover. We know Jennings can do a job so he's the safer option I suppose.

Hype710 · 08-03-2012 4:35pm

JRant wrote: »

It would seem the Ulster lads are not well thought of by the current management.

Deccie's only brought through one Ulster player (Tom Court) in his four years in charge. The fact they've once again become a major European force has completely passed him by.

ray jay · 08-03-2012 4:37pm

The Irish team for this weekend's match (http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/25843.php)

15 - Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
14 - Tommy Bowe (Ospreys)
13 - Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
12 - Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
11 - Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
10 - Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
9 - Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
1 - Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
2 - Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) (capt)
3 - Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
4 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
5 - Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
6 - Stephen Ferris (Dungannon/Ulster)
7 - Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
8 - Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)

Replacements:

16 - Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
17 - Tom Court (Malone/Ulster)
18 - Mike McCarthy (Buccaneers/Connacht)
19 - Shane Jennings (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
20 - Tomas O'Leary (Dolphin/Munster)
21 - Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
22 - Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)

Tox56 · 08-03-2012 4:39pm

This is starting to annoy me, I'm a Leinster fan, but come on.

Clegg · 08-03-2012 4:43pm

So can we start questioning Kidneys stance on Ulster players? I know Best has been made captain but he's the only provincial captai left in the starting line-up. That was a no brainer decision.

Tuohy and Henry can feel very hard dome by in these selections. And lets not forget Craig Gilroy. A starting winger for Ulster who is apparently not good enough for the Wolfhounds :rolleyes:

Cpt_Blackbeard · 08-03-2012 4:44pm

Touhy's snub I can understand. He jumps at the front and doesn't have McCarthy 's experience of running a lineout. But Jennings ahead of Henry makes no sense, especially as Henry has been training with the squad afaik. Maybe Kidney wants an out and out 7 just in case POM doesn't work out and Scotland will be playing 2 7s?

totallegend · 08-03-2012 4:46pm

Tox56 wrote: »

This is starting to annoy me, I'm a Leinster fan, but come on.

In fairness now, a lot of us have been b*tching for a long time that Jennings hasn't gotten a fair shake from Kidney when he's been in great form for Leinster. Of course, his form for Leinster has dropped off a bit recently, but he's still a good player. I would have liked to see Henry get a run, but Kidney was never going to start with POM and have him backed up Henry, another guy with only one cap to his name.

While I'm gutted for O'Brien and I think it weakens the team, let's just appreciate the fact that it's forced Kidney's hand into trying out a new guy. I hope POM goes well on Saturday, the Scots have a class act at 7 and with Barclay and Denton, their back row is probably their main area of strength so all three of our guys will have to be on their game.

08-03-2012 4:47pm

wtf

no seriously

wtf

Tox56 · 08-03-2012 4:48pm

totallegend wrote: »

In fairness now, a lot of us have been b*tching for a long time that Jennings hasn't gotten a fair shake from Kidney when he's been in great form for Leinster. Of course, his form for Leinster has dropped off a bit recently, but he's still a good player. I would have liked to see Henry get a run, but Kidney was never going to start with POM and have him backed up Henry, another guy with only one cap to his name.

While I'm gutted for O'Brien and I think it weakens the team, let's just appreciate the fact that it's forced Kidney's hand into trying out a new guy. I hope POM goes well on Saturday, the Scots have a class act at 7 and with Barclay and Denton, their back row is probably their main area of strength so all three of our guys will have to be on their game.

A part of it is that I would have gone with Henry over POM, but Henry surely has to be at least as good if not better than Jennings. I mean, he captained the Woflhounds, so somebody can see he is trustworthy.

roycon · 08-03-2012 4:48pm

was thinking the same thing captain. henry has been playing so well for ulster against quality opposition in the heineken cup as well as being a more flexible player.

08-03-2012 4:49pm

Henry has been head and shoulders above Jennings this season.

Kidney got the Jennings memo 3 years too late perhaps?

irishbucsfan · 08-03-2012 4:51pm

MungBean wrote: »

thomond2006 wrote: »

ah here, that's a disgrace if he is in ahead of Henry.

Its POM's first start though, you cant realistically have no experienced cover on the bench when blooding a new player. As much as I'd like Henry to be there if he was we wouldnt really have any cover. We know Jennings can do a job so he's the safer option I suppose.

You mean experience like a 27 year old capped international who has captained his province (last time just a couple of weeks ago) and was one of the form back rows in Europe this season?

Another brainless selection. Why did they keep Henry from the last ulster team exactly?

Tox56 · 08-03-2012 4:52pm

roycon wrote: »

was thinking the same thing captain. henry has been playing so well for ulster against quality opposition in the heineken cup as well as being a more flexible player.

This is a good point, we lose POM, we have 3 specialists on the pitch.

Hype710 · 08-03-2012 4:53pm

Conservatism at its finest. Henry has been 23rd man afaik for the last three games and when the opportunity comes to get into the 22, is snubbed for Jennings despite the fact he's having a poor season. Henry, meanwhile, has been a revelation and the lack of experience logic is so flawed, it's not as if Jennings has a wealth of international experience either.

Clegg · 08-03-2012 4:58pm

TBH I think Kidney is really starting to feel the pressure. Players are getting injured and he must be starting to worry about his job. So instead of trying out untested, in form players, he's going back to the old reliables even though they aren't necessarily playing well.

danthefan · 08-03-2012 4:58pm

Clegg wrote: »

So can we start questioning Kidneys stance on Ulster players? I know Best has been made captain but he's the only provincial captai left in the starting line-up. That was a no brainer decision.

Tuohy and Henry can feel very hard dome by in these selections. And lets not forget Craig Gilroy. A starting winger for Ulster who is apparently not good enough for the Wolfhounds :rolleyes:

Muller is the captain of Ulster.

Clegg · 08-03-2012 4:59pm

danthefan wrote: »

Muller is the captain of Ulster.

That scuppers my line of thinking then.

MungBean · 08-03-2012 5:00pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You mean experience like a 27 year old capped international who has captained his province (last time just a couple of weeks ago) and was one of the form back rows in Europe this season?

Another brainless selection. Why did they keep Henry from the last ulster team exactly?

I didnt realise Henry had been capped, I'm just trying to rationalise it from Deccies point of view. He might see two relatively untested players as being a bit risky and went for Jennings as a safer option.

I'm with the rest of ya though in that I'd have Henry on the bench but as decisions go I'm not sure its the worst he's ever made. But what do I know I didnt even know he was capped.

Tox56 · 08-03-2012 5:01pm

I wish we had a Lancaster-type person to come in and try out some new things. He could have tried to secure a job for himself by flooding the team with the old-guard, winning 3 or 4 games with mediocre rugby and negative selections, exactly what Kidney is doing, or trying to do. He was positive, tried new things, and it looks like things might be starting to turn his way based on the Wales game.

irishbucsfan · 08-03-2012 5:02pm

danthefan wrote: »

Clegg wrote: »

So can we start questioning Kidneys stance on Ulster players? I know Best has been made captain but he's the only provincial captai left in the starting line-up. That was a no brainer decision.

Tuohy and Henry can feel very hard dome by in these selections. And lets not forget Craig Gilroy. A starting winger for Ulster who is apparently not good enough for the Wolfhounds :rolleyes:

Muller is the captain of Ulster.

Youre right but in fairness Best was captain for a good while and Muller was picked because he's not away with Ireland and not subject to player management schemes.

Hype710 · 08-03-2012 5:04pm

O' Mahony will have to provide cover for Jamie at 8 as well, not sure he's played there since the Under 20s.

totallegend · 08-03-2012 5:05pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You mean experience like a 27 year old capped international who has captained his province (last time just a couple of weeks ago) and was one of the form back rows in Europe this season?

Another brainless selection. Why did they keep Henry from the last ulster team exactly?

Henry has one cap, obtained on that 2010 tour to Australia and NZ where pretty much anyone who could tie their bootlaces got a cap. Not disputing that Henry would have been a better selection, but he is not experienced in an international context.

Fishooks12 · 08-03-2012 5:06pm

Hype710 wrote: »

O' Mahony will have to provide cover for Jamie at 8 as well, not sure he's played there since the Under 20s.

good point. Would have made much more sense for Henry to be included

JustinDee · 08-03-2012 5:10pm

Tox56 wrote: »

I wish we had a Lancaster-type person to come in and try out some new things. He could have tried to secure a job for himself by flooding the team with the old-guard, winning 3 or 4 games with mediocre rugby and negative selections, exactly what Kidney is doing, or trying to do. He was positive, tried new things, and it looks like things might be starting to turn his way based on the Wales game.

Exactly how is England's predicament post-RWC, the same as that of Ireland's???
It isn't, in the slightest.

Stu Lancaster couldn't have kept even half that squad given what happened before.
He had no option but to do what he did.

irishbucsfan · 08-03-2012 5:11pm

totallegend wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You mean experience like a 27 year old capped international who has captained his province (last time just a couple of weeks ago) and was one of the form back rows in Europe this season?

Another brainless selection. Why did they keep Henry from the last ulster team exactly?

Henry has one cap, obtained on that 2010 tour to Australia and NZ where pretty much anyone who could tie their bootlaces got a cap. Not disputing that Henry would have been a better selection, but he is not experienced in an international context.

While that's true he also has a lot of Ireland A and Churchill Cup experience.

I just don't accept a guy whose around as long as him and has been such a big part of Ulsters H Cup form should be overlooked based on experience for Shane Jennings who isn't exactly the Methuselah of international rugby.

But were we really expecting Kidney to reward form over familiarity?

CatFromHue · 08-03-2012 5:11pm

Hype710 wrote: »

O' Mahony will have to provide cover for Jamie at 8 as well, not sure he's played there since the Under 20s.

POM played 8 against The Ospreys earlier this season.

irishbucsfan · 08-03-2012 5:13pm

JustinDee wrote: »

Tox56 wrote: »

I wish we had a Lancaster-type person to come in and try out some new things. He could have tried to secure a job for himself by flooding the team with the old-guard, winning 3 or 4 games with mediocre rugby and negative selections, exactly what Kidney is doing, or trying to do. He was positive, tried new things, and it looks like things might be starting to turn his way based on the Wales game.

Exactly how is England's predicament post-RWC, the same as that of Ireland's???
It isn't, in the slightest.

Stu Lancaster couldn't have kept even half that squad given what happened before.
He had no option but to do what he did.

Yeah cmon guys, Ireland got to the quarter finals of the world cup with the oldest squad in the competition.

How can you possibly think we had anything in common with the English experience?

Tox56 · 08-03-2012 5:27pm

JustinDee wrote: »

Exactly how is England's predicament post-RWC, the same as that of Ireland's???
It isn't, in the slightest.

Stu Lancaster couldn't have kept even half that squad given what happened before.
He had no option but to do what he did.

He did not have to replace virtually every position in the team, and didn't have to play a rookie 8, 9, 10, 12 and inexperienced 13 against Wales, but he did, and they did just as well, if not better, than we did.

I'm not advocating that sort of change obviously, we don't need it, most of our team picks itself. However, it really demonstrates the folly of taking a completely risk-free, incredibly convervative approach to certain selections.

JustinDee · 08-03-2012 5:32pm

Tox56 wrote: »

He did not have to replace virtually every position in the team, and didn't have to play a rookie 8, 9, 10, 12 and inexperienced 13 against Wales, but he did, and they did just as well, if not better, than we did

Yes he did. With all of those positions with the exception of 9, who was hardly a risky choice but turned out to have their own problems thus getting the drop.
Unless you've been ignoring what has been happening with the England setup, a complete and utter clearout was inevitable and unavoidable.

08-03-2012 5:38pm

JustinDee wrote: »

Yes he did. With all of those positions with the exception of 9, who was hardly a risky choice but turned out to have their own problems thus getting the drop.
Unless you've been ignoring what has been happening with the England setup, a complete and utter clearout was inevitable and unavoidable.

I'd agree with Justin here, it's not quite the players abilities or ages that have had anything to do with the "clearout".

Tox56 · 08-03-2012 5:43pm

JustinDee wrote: »

Yes he did. With all of those positions with the exception of 9, who was hardly a risky choice but turned out to have their own problems thus getting the drop.
Unless you've been ignoring what has been happening with the England setup, a complete and utter clearout was inevitable and unavoidable.

I'm not arguing that some players had to go, but even so, the size and speed of the clearout was something not all managers would have done. Not all players were dropped solely on their ability and age, but many were.

irishbucsfan · 08-03-2012 5:44pm

Kailyn Victorious Retiree wrote: »

JustinDee wrote: »

Yes he did. With all of those positions with the exception of 9, who was hardly a risky choice but turned out to have their own problems thus getting the drop.
Unless you've been ignoring what has been happening with the England setup, a complete and utter clearout was inevitable and unavoidable.

I'd agree with Justin here, it's not quite the players abilities or ages that have had anything to do with the "clearout".

I don't buy this.

Nick Easter wasn't involved in any off field issues was he? He was dropped. A whole host of troublemakers weren't.

sensitive1960 · 08-03-2012 5:52pm

Tox56 wrote: »

I wish we had a Lancaster-type person to come in and try out some new things. He could have tried to secure a job for himself by flooding the team with the old-guard, winning 3 or 4 games with mediocre rugby and negative selections, exactly what Kidney is doing, or trying to do. He was positive, tried new things, and it looks like things might be starting to turn his way based on the Wales game.

Yeah England now play such an attacking and expansive game-oh wait they've only scored 2 tries and these have been charge-downs.Our defence coach is doing a better job.

Tox56 · 08-03-2012 5:53pm

sensitive1960 wrote: »

Yeah England now play such an attacking and expansive game-oh wait they've only scored 2 tries and these have been charge-downs.Our defence coach is doing a better job.

Did you see their game v Wales?

.ak · 08-03-2012 5:59pm

In regards to Jennings, he was always going to be cover. It wasn't a planned pull out from O'Brien, so they went to someone who knows the setup and the systems already in place.

Hype710 · 08-03-2012 6:02pm

.ak wrote: »

In regards to Jennings, he was always going to be cover. It wasn't a planned pull out from O'Brien, so they went to someone who knows the setup and the systems already in place.

Henry has been out warming up before the games as 23rd man, fairly sure he knows them too.

sensitive1960 · 08-03-2012 6:09pm

Tox56 wrote: »

Did you see their game v Wales?

Yeah I think it was the only game they failed to get a chage-down!

Clegg · 08-03-2012 6:10pm

Michael Corcoran is saying that Henry has an achilles injury. This probably explains the Jennings call-up.

Although Kidney probably would probably have called up Jennings even if Henry were fit.

totallegend · 08-03-2012 6:10pm

Michael Corcoran on Twitter wrote: »

Chris Henry is injured and receiving treatment on an achilles injury.

Looks like Kidney may not be as bad as he's being made out this afternoon.

ambid · 08-03-2012 6:12pm

I'm very surprised at the strenuous demands for experimentation in this match. Even before O'Brien's injury, Ireland were already massively weakened by losing their forwards coach, captain, and second captain. Scotland are a good side who could/ should have beaten France and England, and statistically their set pieces are stronger than Ireland's.

The IRFU have made clear that Ireland need to finish as high as possible in the six nations table every year. We can experiment in the non competitive tests later this year, but the six nations is our unquestioned priority.

Playing against a good team, in a vital competitive match, when we have already been substantially weakened - well it seems to me we have little scope for experimentation and need our experienced players in this match.

Beachballz · 08-03-2012 6:20pm

Who is next to cry off for Ireland?

I blame the doctors, Paul O'Connell would play on 1 leg if he could. Medical advice is always geared towards stopping people playing the game they love.

irishbucsfan · 08-03-2012 6:22pm

ambid wrote: »

The IRFU have made clear that Ireland need to finish as high as possible in the six nations table every year. We can experiment in the non competitive tests later this year, but the six nations is our unquestioned priority.

That's fair enough, but do you really think there'll be experimentation?

Clegg · 08-03-2012 6:27pm

ambid wrote: »

I'm very surprised at the strenuous demands for experimentation in this match. Even before O'Brien's injury, Ireland were already massively weakened by losing their forwards coach, captain, and second captain. Scotland are a good side who could/ should have beaten France and England, and statistically their set pieces are stronger than Ireland's.

The IRFU have made clear that Ireland need to finish as high as possible in the six nations table every year. We can experiment in the non competitive tests later this year, but the six nations is our unquestioned priority.

Playing against a good team, in a vital competitive match, when we have already been substantially weakened - well it seems to me we have little scope for experimentation and need our experienced players in this match.

It's our experienced players that are the problem. Players like DOC and Darcy haven't been international class for years. Experience means nothing when the players we have are playing poorly.

You hold the same mindset as the IRFU. The constant need to pick experienced players has left us woefully unprepared for the next few years. It is short minded and naive in the extreme.

irishbucsfan · 08-03-2012 6:29pm

O'Mahoney will find it tough going against Scotland. Hopefully the experience will stand to him later on.

Neil3030 · 08-03-2012 6:30pm

Wow, that injury list is now nearly as long as the list of people who want Kidney locked in a brazen bull.

ambid · 08-03-2012 6:37pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

That's fair enough, but do you really think there'll be experimentation?

I don't know, but there should be. The result is all important against Scotland, the result against Australia in a non competitive Autumn test is not all important so there should be experimentation then.

Clegg wrote: »

It's our experienced players that are the problem. Players like DOC and Darcy haven't been international class for years. Experience means nothing when the players we have are playing poorly.

You hold the same mindset as the IRFU. The constant need to pick experienced players has left us woefully unprepared for the next few years. It is short minded and naive in the extreme.

Steady on! :eek:

I did say there is a time for experimentation, I did not say that we have a "constant need to pick experienced players".

JustinDee · 08-03-2012 6:40pm

Tox56 wrote: »

I'm not arguing that some players had to go, but even so, the size and speed of the clearout was something not all managers would have done. Not all players were dropped solely on their ability and age, but many were.

The positions you've mentioned have all been such a case. Your speculation that other managers are lagging behind some form of progression amongst the England setup is off mark, in my opinion.
A clearout was required and was made happen, for reasons already pointed out.

Ireland v Scotland -Aviva Stadium - Saturday 10th March 5pm

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