Is the Media Too Soft on Declan Kidney and the Irish Management

dubdaymo · 19-03-2012 2:18pm

For the love of God will someone in the know please explain to us plebs how it came to pass that, when 8 burly Irishmen crouched down to push against 8 burly Englishmen, they allowed themselves to be pushed back like they were 9 year olds.

Tox56 · 19-03-2012 2:23pm

dubdaymo wrote: »

For the love of God will someone in the know please explain to us plebs how it came to pass that, when 8 burly Irishmen crouched down to push against 8 burly Englishmen, they allowed themselves to be pushed back like they were 9 year olds.

The most important position in the scrum was being played by someone who isn't able to play that position, and he was subsequently destroyed.

OldRio · 19-03-2012 3:10pm

I wonder what insight, on that performance, 'against the head' on rte will give us tonight??
The usual, no doubt.

irishbucsfan · 19-03-2012 4:00pm

Wow. Thornley calls the decision to renew O'Sullivan's contract risible and defends Kidney?! Talk about one-eyed

dougieruggie · 19-03-2012 5:34pm

I think some complaints need to be lodged about Thornley's 'journalism'

thomond2006 · 19-03-2012 6:17pm

phog · 19-03-2012 7:06pm

dougieruggie wrote: »

I think some complaints need to be lodged about Thornley's 'journalism'

Here's the contact details for the Irish Times.

padser · 19-03-2012 7:30pm

VivGrise wrote: »

What I don't understand is why didn't Kidney tell Court or Healy to go down injured at scrum time, and then get them off with a "Neck injury". Uncontested scrums for the rest of the day. Ok, some people might frown upon this kind of play, but at the end of the day it's about the win. No one remembers who finished second or third in the six nations, and it's time that Kidney became ruthless. Its a golden age of sorts in Irish Rugby and we need to start racking up the silverware while we can.

The one single positive thing about my view of Kidney is that he didn't do that.

I'd still fire him. But I have a small amount of respect for him left because he didnt take that option.

Fishooks12 · 19-03-2012 7:33pm

dougieruggie wrote: »

I think some complaints need to be lodged about Thornley's 'journalism'

sigh, shouldn't even respond

As a journalist myself I can vouch that Thornley is a fantastic rugby reporter

He frequently has leads ahead of everyone else in the nationals and was named Ireland's starting 15 correctly for every game this year

He knows his stuff too, unlike his Indo counterpart

I've said here before that Thronley's proximity to the Irish camp has blighted a lot of his opinion pieces. He's unwilling to bite the hand that's feeding him decent leads, and who can blame him.

I suggest than rather a stupid complaint to the Times that would probably not even be opened, stick to Francis for the opinion and Thornley for the rugby news reportage like I do

Sindri · 19-03-2012 7:34pm

dubdaymo wrote: »

For the love of God will someone in the know please explain to us plebs how it came to pass that, when 8 burly Irishmen crouched down to push against 8 burly Englishmen, they allowed themselves to be pushed back like they were 9 year olds.

Because of illegal scrummaging.

Hartley loosens his bind on his props, allowing him to raise up and take the opposition hooker with him who is still tightly bound to his props, which pulls them up and this allows Hartley's props, who because of the looser bind are still at their original engagement level and then they can out scrummage their opposite opponents.

It's what Northampton do, it's illegal and it injured Mike Ross! :mad:

Court would have given a better performance and account of himself if he wasn't scrummaging against illegal scrummaging.

If Ross had stayed on the pitch, and he wasn't injured the scrums would have been a lot more stable.

Tox56 · 19-03-2012 7:38pm

I have a great respect for Kidney as a man, although he doesn't say much in press conferences he is very level-headed, most notably after that defeat by Wales in Cardiff with the illegal throw in.

While I was ready to burn the next Welshman I saw, he was incredibly dignified, and put things into perspective with the Japanese Earthquake. He must have been fuming but not many coaches would have been that level-headed, and there are many that come to mind who wouldn't have been so accepting.

Still think he needs to go though.

Fishooks12 · 19-03-2012 7:40pm

Tox56 wrote: »

I have a great respect for Kidney as a man, although he doesn't say much in press conferences he is very level-headed, most notably after that defeat by Wales in Cardiff with the illegal throw in.

While I was ready to burn the next Welshman I saw, he was incredibly dignified, and put things into perspective with the Japanese Earthquake. He must have been fuming but not many coaches would have been that level-headed, and there are many that come to mind who wouldn't have been so accepting.

Still think he needs to go though.

This, Kidney is a gentleman through and through

I think he should go too but I hate all this passive aggressive "Uncle Deccie" ****e you see on here

JRant · 19-03-2012 8:18pm

Fishooks12 wrote: »

dougieruggie wrote: »

I think some complaints need to be lodged about Thornley's 'journalism'

sigh, shouldn't even respond

As a journalist myself I can vouch that Thornley is a fantastic rugby reporter

He frequently has leads ahead of everyone else in the nationals and was named Ireland's starting 15 correctly for every game this year

He knows his stuff too, unlike his Indo counterpart

I've said here before that Thronley's proximity to the Irish camp has blighted a lot of his opinion pieces. He's unwilling to bite the hand that's feeding him decent leads, and who can blame him.

I suggest than rather a stupid complaint to the Times that would probably not even be opened, stick to Francis for the opinion and Thornley for the rugby news reportage like I do

Agree completely, he has the inside track on the team and management and as such gives us an idea as to what the thinking is behind the scenes. While I don't like his opinions it actually gives us an idea as to how deluded the current setup is. They think its working while it clearly isn't and in some ways it's more damming than coming out with all guns blazing.

themont85 · 19-03-2012 8:25pm

Problem is that our journalists are reporters and opinion writers. There needs to be some kind of difference

Podge_irl · 19-03-2012 8:43pm

Fishooks12 wrote: »

named Ireland's starting 15 correctly for every game this year

So did I.

Fishooks12 · 19-03-2012 8:45pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

So did I.

Well done

Podge_irl · 19-03-2012 8:49pm

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Well done

Thank you!

My point is more that his "inside line" hasn't been that useful of late. I don't doubt his knowledge or his journalistic integrity, but perhaps the head rugby writer shouldn't be quite so cosy with the camp. It appears to be a comparatively new thing based on his writing on EOS and a comparatively localised thing based on his tirade against the new NIQ regs.

Fishooks12 · 19-03-2012 8:51pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Thank you!

My point is more that his "inside line" hasn't been that useful of late. I don't doubt his knowledge or his journalistic integrity, but perhaps the head rugby writer shouldn't be quite so cosy with the camp. It appears to be a comparatively new thing based on his writing on EOS and a comparatively localised thing based on his tirade against the new NIQ regs.

I could have used a better example of his reportage seeing as it wasn't too hard to guess the Irish teams recently!

I agree though, he needs to be less cosy because I do think he is aware of Kidneys problems as a coach

Seph503 · 19-03-2012 9:04pm

Gerry's on Against the Head, wonder what he'll say.....:rolleyes:

JustinDee · 20-03-2012 9:42am

Seph503 wrote: »

Gerry's on Against the Head, wonder what he'll say.....:rolleyes:

Let me guess . . .

"This goes right down to club level . . . etc . . . etc".
"The IRFU have bowed down to the clubs and let the club competition structure remain as it is, instead of sticking oar in and changing it . . . "

YET . . .

"the IRFU are ridiculous for 'interfering' with the provinces when ruling on Succession Policy".

Macy0161 · 20-03-2012 10:08am

JustinDee wrote: »

Let me guess . . .

"This goes right down to club level . . . etc . . . etc".
"The IRFU have bowed down to the clubs and let the club competition structure remain as it is, instead of sticking oar in and changing it . . . "

YET . . .

"the IRFU are ridiculous for 'interfering' with the provinces when ruling on Succession Policy".

iirc all three of the panel had a go at the NIQ proposals, yet also said young Irish props need game time against experienced players. Their solution was the AIL.

I'm not sure where I stand on the NIQ rules tbh, but it sounded ridiculous for Thornley to rail against that rule, and then castigate the IRFU for young props not getting game time. Just to add, I generally don't mind Thornley, even if I think he is a bit soft of Kidney especially in comparison to how he treated EOS.

dougieruggie · 20-03-2012 10:43am

Against the Head....not one criticism.

Sheehan pimps up one of his clients. Says Archer should be on the bench for Ireland. The lad is atrocious at scrummaging and doesn't even cover the two sides! In fact the only thing he does is employ Frankie as his agent it would seem.

I thought Sheehan was reforming...

lologram · 20-03-2012 10:49am

dougieruggie wrote: »

Against the Head....not one criticism.

Sheehan pimps up one of his clients. Says Archer should be on the bench for Ireland. The lad is atrocious at scrummaging and doesn't even cover the two sides! In fact the only thing he does is employ Frankie as his agent it would seem.

I thought Sheehan was reforming...

I used to think Sheehan was just a bad commentator but then I realised he actually has deeper, more self-serving motives. I don't know why RTE and Sky both trundle him out. The bias and general low quality commentary is awful. Far worse than anything the likes of Brian Moore produces.

leftleg · 20-03-2012 10:52am

Warning; Danger; Farrelly alert

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/comment-analysis/hugh-farrelly-scrum-farce-symptom-of-wider-failing-3054217.html

What he says is true to a point but there is no mention of Kideny's reluctance to play Ross earlier than he did;

"the evidence is irrefutable. Ross would have been established in the Ireland side sooner had he not been forced to warm the bench for a season at Leinster behind Stan Wright and CJ van der Linde."

In fact he blames Leinster for not playing Ross sooner by the looks of it.

"With far more clubs to choose from, England do not have the same issues to negotiate and were able to completely revamp their squad after their World Cup disappointment."

:mad:

Most of our squad were from Leinster and the rest from Munster and Ulster; Most of that England team were from Leicester, Northampton and Saracens.

Complete rubbish

dougieruggie · 20-03-2012 11:03am

leftleg wrote: »

In fact he blames Leinster for not playing Ross sooner by the looks of it.

Complete rubbish

Similar to Hook when he singled out Leinster for importing foreign props after the English game.

Which was weird because Leinster's two starting props are Irish, whereas Munster have no Irish starting props and Ulster only have one.

Eoin · 20-03-2012 11:05am

Fishooks12 wrote: »

He frequently has leads ahead of everyone else in the nationals and was named Ireland's starting 15 correctly for every game this year

And he can probably name Ireland's starting XV for the next year right now too.

leftleg · 20-03-2012 11:54am

Shock Horror; Actual accurate article by Hook in todays indo;

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/comment-analysis/george-hook-irfu-must-go-to-school-in-bid-to-solve-prop-problems-3054309.html

"Declan Kidney's hands may have been tied by the failure of his employers to give him competent prop forwards, but his conservatism was exposed for all to see and might of itself have delivered the same if less humiliating result.

The coach's irrational faith in Gordon D'Arcy lasted 45 minutes, and he was forced, in the most important game of the season, to use a backline with two fly-halves and put Jonathan Sexton in the unenviable position of learning centre play on the hoof.

If the Ronan O'Gara/Sexton combination was such a good idea then why not have tested it for 80 minutes against Italy or Scotland when D'Arcy had already shown that a fine career was at an end?"

"Kidney's failure to believe the evidence of his own eyes is encapsulated in the performance of Donnacha Ryan. He was Ireland's best forward on Saturday yet he might never have got a start had Paul O'Connell remained fit. Donncha O'Callaghan, like Heaslip, has been living on a reputation of what lazy pundits call "a lot of unseen work''. Ryan's efforts were a lot more visible."

Excellent article; right on the money for once;

Take a bow everybody on boards; George Hook has been busy copying and pasting from us all.

rrpc · 20-03-2012 11:57am

leftleg wrote: »

Shock Horror; Actual accurate article by Hook in todays indo;

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/comment-analysis/george-hook-irfu-must-go-to-school-in-bid-to-solve-prop-problems-3054309.html

"Declan Kidney's hands may have been tied by the failure of his employers to give him competent prop forwards, but his conservatism was exposed for all to see and might of itself have delivered the same if less humiliating result.

The coach's irrational faith in Gordon D'Arcy lasted 45 minutes, and he was forced, in the most important game of the season, to use a backline with two fly-halves and put Jonathan Sexton in the unenviable position of learning centre play on the hoof.

If the Ronan O'Gara/Sexton combination was such a good idea then why not have tested it for 80 minutes against Italy or Scotland when D'Arcy had already shown that a fine career was at an end?"

"Kidney's failure to believe the evidence of his own eyes is encapsulated in the performance of Donnacha Ryan. He was Ireland's best forward on Saturday yet he might never have got a start had Paul O'Connell remained fit. Donncha O'Callaghan, like Heaslip, has been living on a reputation of what lazy pundits call "a lot of unseen work''. Ryan's efforts were a lot more visible."

Excellent article; right on the money for once;

Take a bow everybody on boards; George Hook has been busy copying and pasting from us all.

:cool:

To be fair to George, I've noticed lately that the hammer is actually hitting the nail more often than statistical probability would predict.

leftleg · 20-03-2012 12:07pm

I wonder which one of the posters on here is George Hook hmmmm!!

20-03-2012 12:11pm

George Hook is a different beast on tv than he is in print media or on radio.

It strikes me that he gets wound up massively during a game, and can end up spouting nonsense, a lá the average match thread.

When he thinks, he can be spot on. I remember seeing him do punditry on a game recently enough when he was absolutely correct about everything he said. I think when he's emotionally connected to a game, he can lose the rag far too easily.

That being said, he has a serious axe to grind with Heaslip. For someone who uses Twitter so much himself, I think Hook's not a fan of Heaslip apparently having some sort of "playboy" image.

shuffol · 20-03-2012 12:32pm

It's ironic Hugh Farrelly bemoaning the small pool of teams we have to chose from when he all but ignores most Ulster players in his articles never mind Connacht ones. In his assessment of 2nd rows available prior to the 6N he barely mentioned Tuohy or his form this season. Even last week he called Chris Henry a 6/8 playing out of position.

Speaking of Hook too I remember he used to post on the BBC message boards, 606, he'd stick up a match review after HEC games. I think he stopped posting after an unfavourable response to a fairly scathing assessment he gave of Leinsters performance away to Castres in 09. This was when the Irish media still had a love in with Munster and Leinster had yet to shake off the ladyboys reputation.

molloyjh · 20-03-2012 2:33pm

JustinDee wrote: »

Let me guess . . .

"This goes right down to club level . . . etc . . . etc".
"The IRFU have bowed down to the clubs and let the club competition structure remain as it is, instead of sticking oar in and changing it . . . "

YET . . .

"the IRFU are ridiculous for 'interfering' with the provinces when ruling on Succession Policy".

Almost word for word Justin.

dougieruggie wrote: »

Against the Head....not one criticism.

Sheehan pimps up one of his clients. Says Archer should be on the bench for Ireland. The lad is atrocious at scrummaging and doesn't even cover the two sides! In fact the only thing he does is employ Frankie as his agent it would seem.

I thought Sheehan was reforming...

In fairness to Frankie he was talking about getting younger props more game time and named Archer along with Hagan and Loughney. It's not like he was sitting there saying Archer was the answer to our problems or anything. He was just picking out young props to facilitate his point.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 20-03-2012 2:39pm

leftleg wrote: »

"the evidence is irrefutable. Ross would have been established in the Ireland side sooner had he not been forced to warm the bench for a season at Leinster behind Stan Wright and CJ van der Linde."

In fact he blames Leinster for not playing Ross sooner by the looks of it.

Thats a decent point Ross only had 8 starts in his first season with Leinster and only 2 (out of 8) HEC starts. Had he played maybe twice as much Ross would have been in a better position to claim an Ireland spot the following November.

Sure I would have played Ross in November 2012 and would have picked him at the time but I didn't think it was a crime to leave him out at the time. Mildly disappointing not criminally insane which is how many posters here are presenting it.

Seph503 · 20-03-2012 2:53pm

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Thats a decent point Ross only had 8 starts in his first season with Leinster and only 2 (out of 8) HEC starts. Had he played maybe twice as much Ross would have been in a better position to claim an Ireland spot the following November.

Sure I would have played Ross in November 2012 and would have picked him at the time but I didn't think it was a crime to leave him out at the time. Mildly disappointing not criminally insane which is how many posters here are presenting it.

Better position to make a claim yes. Would he have gotten picked ahead of Hayes and Buckley if he had been playing, unfortunately no.:(

RobAMerc · 20-03-2012 2:59pm

With regards to the tight head position ( and no fault of Kidney ) why was Jamie Hagan brought to Leinster to put a bum on a seat when he could have got real exposure to HC rugby if he's have stayed at Connacht.
Also why is Kidney ignoring him ? Is he really that far off what a good tight head is ?

Tox56 · 20-03-2012 3:00pm

RobAMerc wrote: »

With regards to the tight head position ( and no fault of Kidney ) why was Jamie Hagan brought to Leinster to put a bum on a seat when he could have got real exposure to HC rugby if he's have stayed at Connacht.
Also why is Kidney ignoring him ? Is he really that far off what a good tight head is ?

He's been working on both his fitness and more importantly his scummaging with Feek. They are using this year to get him up to a satisfactory level, and he is starting to get where they want him. He has already started a HEC game for Leinster, and has been getting regular gametime elsewhere.

Yes he would have got more HEC gametime with Connacht, but I think this is more beneficial for his developement.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 20-03-2012 3:06pm

RobAMerc wrote: »

With regards to the tight head position ( and no fault of Kidney ) why was Jamie Hagan brought to Leinster to put a bum on a seat when he could have got real exposure to HC rugby if he's have stayed at Connacht.
Also why is Kidney ignoring him ? Is he really that far off what a good tight head is ?

Probably the same reason that Ross didn't get much gametime in his first Leinster season. The coaching team is busy working on his fitness and teaching to play Rugby rather than scrum lie down next to a ruck and occasionally carry first phase crashball and wait for the next scrum.

There is a plan for Hagan in Leinster he isn't just being left to rot as third choice.

JustinDee · 20-03-2012 3:11pm

rrpc wrote: »

To be fair to George, I've noticed lately that the hammer is actually hitting the nail more often than statistical probability would predict.

He conveniently ignores Jamie Heaslip's tackle-count and turnover tally for each and every game. These stats are given out at the press conferences that he never attends and are passed up to the studio as soon as done.

CatFromHue · 20-03-2012 3:19pm

JustinDee wrote: »

He conveniently ignores Jamie Heaslip's tackle-count and turnover tally for each and every game. These stats are given out at the press conferences that he never attends and are passed up to the studio as soon as done.

How does someone get a look at these stats?

Riskymove · 20-03-2012 3:37pm

dougieruggie wrote: »

Similar to Hook when he singled out Leinster for importing foreign props after the English game.

Which was weird because Leinster's two starting props are Irish, whereas Munster have no Irish starting props and Ulster only have one.

tbh I think that had more to do with his belief that Leinster actually had/have young props that could have been developed

also, Ross is ex-Munster brought in from UK and played second behind Stan Wright to begin with

.ak · 20-03-2012 3:43pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

How does someone get a look at these stats?

The IRFU are hiring a scrum coach...

rrpc · 20-03-2012 4:55pm

JustinDee wrote: »

He conveniently ignores Jamie Heaslip's tackle-count and turnover tally for each and every game. These stats are given out at the press conferences that he never attends and are passed up to the studio as soon as done.

It wasn't exactly a glowing endorsement by any stretch :rolleyes:

Colonialboy · 20-03-2012 5:36pm

rrpc wrote: »

It wasn't exactly a glowing endorsement by any stretch :rolleyes:

Id say Bowe despises Heaslip, every time theres a move on with extra men and all they need todo is get it widefast, soon as Heslip gets the ball, he puts it up the jumper , looks around for an opponent and then charges at him.

I reckon theres something going on behind the scenes with contracts and making sure to give some 'senior' players a few more years because they have earned a little golden handshake.
Id have to agree that given the punishment they take they do in fact deserve that payday, but I dont think the team is being picked on merit or form. Irish rugby selection has always been corrupt to some degree.

phog · 20-03-2012 5:36pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

How does someone get a look at these stats?

Press accreditation?

leftleg · 20-03-2012 5:37pm

phog wrote: »

Press accreditation?

writing really favourable things about Kidney in the Irish Times and the Independent no matter what.

danthefan · 20-03-2012 6:16pm

The Whiff of Cordite blog says since we won the Slam, so from the 2009 AIs onwards, we have played 20 times aganst top 8 opposition and we have won 6 of those games.

In a results based business, Kidney is failing miserably by any measurable standard. The press are doing a shocking job for not highlighting this.

smurphy29 · 20-03-2012 6:24pm

In answer to the thread title, unquestionably, yes. Matty Williams knows what other countries can be like, and he has gone on record as saying the Irish media are highly co-operative.

There is generally too much parochial nonsense and agenda-pushing in the Irish meeja, and the biggest culprits are the likes of Frankie 'My Client' Sheahan and the gormless, cringeworthy Hugh Farrelly. The biggest disappointment, to me anyway, is the decline of the once great Gerry Thornley. A big thanks to the poster who put the two articles next to one another because it really drives the point home.

I remember when a Six Nations or Heineken Cup weekend started not at kick-off time but when you'd go and buy the papers to read Thornley's pre-match piece to work yourself into a state of nervous excitement. It was essential reading. Not any more. It's a tragedy that the chief rugby writer in the country has sold out his critical faculties, seemingly in a bid to cosy up to management and get the inside track. On Newstalk's Wednesday Night Rugby show you can almost hear him straining at the leash to get to Kidney's defence, no matter what the issue. It's a sad state of affairs.

.ak · 20-03-2012 6:34pm

Colonialboy wrote: »

Id say Bowe despises Heaslip, every time theres a move on with extra men and all they need todo is get it widefast, soon as Heslip gets the ball, he puts it up the jumper , looks around for an opponent and then charges at him.

I reckon theres something going on behind the scenes with contracts and making sure to give some 'senior' players a few more years because they have earned a little golden handshake.
Id have to agree that given the punishment they take they do in fact deserve that payday, but I dont think the team is being picked on merit or form. Irish rugby selection has always been corrupt to some degree.

You'd be forgiven for thinking the above statement is actually about POC.

The truth of the matter is Heaslip actually looks to offload often and has above par pass.

JRant · 20-03-2012 7:25pm

.ak wrote: »

Colonialboy wrote: »

Id say Bowe despises Heaslip, every time theres a move on with extra men and all they need todo is get it widefast, soon as Heslip gets the ball, he puts it up the jumper , looks around for an opponent and then charges at him.

I reckon theres something going on behind the scenes with contracts and making sure to give some 'senior' players a few more years because they have earned a little golden handshake.
Id have to agree that given the punishment they take they do in fact deserve that payday, but I dont think the team is being picked on merit or form. Irish rugby selection has always been corrupt to some degree.

You'd be forgiven for thinking the above statement is actually about POC.

The truth of the matter is Heaslip actually looks to offload often and has above par pass.

What is it with sll the negativitly about Heaslip? I honestly don't see it, he was really solid this 6N's.
More importantly though is DK seems hell bent on ruining the team spirit with his ridiculous actions during games. He asks SOB to do a certain job, which he was quite good at and then pulls him off around the 55/60 min mark against France and England. You could see the disgust in his face when coming off and you could say the same for Reddan. Tbh the best way to get into this team under DK is to be playing for Munster. DOC wouldn't get near the team if he played for anyone else, POM gets brought in despite others in the country playing just as well if not better and with a lot more experience, Murray goes from 5th choice to starting a WC QF without doing a single thing to deserve it, Archer gets a WH start despite the fact he plainly can't scrummage, TOL getting back in. I could go on but whats the point. I'm sure it will be precieved as provincal bias on my part but that couldn't be further from the truth. I want to see us start competing against non 'minnows' Also before anyone mentions Darcy, he's the exception not the rule.

danthefan · 20-03-2012 7:31pm

Let's summarise what's expected of Heaslip in every single game:

The breakdown work of Richie McCaw
The carrying game of Pierre Spies
The defensive game of Thierry Dusautoir
The passing game of Stephen Larkham*

*denotes new entry

Is the Media Too Soft on Declan Kidney and the Irish Management

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