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DART+ (DART Expansion)
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The creation DART line (which obviously goes beyond just electrification) was never a white elephant, in fact the biggest "white elephant" was not moving immediately to continue the programme onto other suburban lines. Would have played some part in how the city developed in the past 20 years.
I think it's fair to say that the MN route has a much higher opulation density than the Maynooth line so what you're saying there doesn't make sense.
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I think it's fair to say that the MN route has a much higher opulation density than the Maynooth line so what you're saying there doesn't make sense.
Part of that is due to dreadful planning - towns along it were built away from the railway not towards it from the 1970s onwards. Resultingly the line runs through open countryside too often.
Even Dunboyne with its 'new' branch, planned for decades, effectively ends at the train line and mostly got built away the opposite side...
Obviously it'd still be lower density, but not as much lower.0 -
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Folks - ye blew it!
All the haggling over Dart v Luas v DU v MN and the endless delays these "debates" caused.....you got nothing
At least the motorway network constructors ignored the begrudgers, Greenies and Nimbys and left us with something valuable in terms of infrastructure.
Pathetic that the one project going ahead (Luas BX) isn't even going to start construction till 2015! (At a cost of one quarter of what we dumped into Anglo's unsecured gamblers on one day last Tuesday)
Or at less than 10% of the "accounting error" of the Dept of Finance debt calculation.
Seems that only infrastructure spending is analysed and examined for return on investment; for the banks the money pours out unaccounted, unexamined and zero return is OK.
How typically FG/Lab lame is that? :cool:0 -
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paulm17781 wrote: »I didn't realise it was discussions on boards that were delaying it. If only we'd known we held such influence.
Certainly no positive influence!
Not just on boards - also in the Irish Times and all the other tedious trainspotting fora that make such huge "controversies" of very basic infrastructure projects.0 -
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You need but search this thread Bill. The original interconnector ( surfacing Heuston) would have shared a bottleneck 3 (then 2) tracks from Heuston to Park West. This was ridiculous.
After CIE correctly ( if belatedly and after lots of abuse here and in other fora) replanned the tunnel to surface further west in Inchicore there was still a glaringly missing bit of quad track Inchicore - Park West.
CIE genuinely hoped nobody would notice this glaring omission and that they could get their railway order anyway and their occasional bitches on here used to be very very cross at me for noticing.
It would and will affect some back gardens in Joe Duffy central...and that is unavoidable as I pointed out.
So the "Missing Link" became "KRP2" .....bit late but nevertheless it finally appeared out of the planning department.
There is no point in DU unless express and local trains are completely separated and that requires 4 tracks all the way. Course the same logic applies north of Connolly/Fairview as far as Clongriffin at least once the north bound traffic exits the tunnel.
Doing KRP2 first as an enabling work for DU, not as a fag end add on afterwards, would:
a) be cheap , really it is a small bit of land acqusition ( if any) and raising/widening 2 bridges...one in Kylemore road.
b) mean that tunneling traffic and spoil would be separated from trains coming to and from Heuston if DU ever went ahead.
c) presently they plan to truck the spoil through the East Wall, a lot of that could be trained out west instead to fill a bog somewhere.
and it would mean in the short term that there are minimum 3 tracks ex Heuston instead of the current 3 then 2 then 4 configuration.
Doing the northern line as Quad track (from Fairview - Clongriffin) would have the same effect if it were brought forward. Then the 2 tracks peeled off into the tunnel are separated and usable as spoil lines and equipment movers during tunneling without affecting other services that must express through the slow commuter trains.
On the scale of the overall DU project which was a €4bn ish integrated vision thing those two 'Quad to the Portals' projects would make perfect sense early on and would have immediate benefits even if the tunnel never happened.
Sadly all the money has been stolen by bankers, consultants lawyers and accountants in South Dublin under the pretext of saving their banks (again). We bailed all these cnuts out in the 1980s as well with their ICI scam which money could better have been spent on vital Roads or Dart to Malahide instead.
There ya go.0 -
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Sponge Bob wrote: »You need but search this thread Bill. The original interconnector ( surfacing Heuston) would have shared a bottleneck 3 (then 2) tracks from Heuston to Park West. This was ridiculous.
After CIE correctly ( if belatedly and after lots of abuse here and in other fora) replanned the tunnel to surface further west in Inchicore there was still a glaringly missing bit of quad track Inchicore - Park West.
CIE genuinely hoped nobody would notice this glaring omission and that they could get their railway order anyway and their occasional bitches on here used to be very very cross at me for noticing. It would and will affect some back gardens in Joe Duffy central...and that is unavoidable as I pointed out.
So the "Missing Link" became "KRP2" .....bit late but nevertheless it finally appeared out of the planning department.
There is no point in DU unless express and local trains are completely separated and that requires 4 tracks all the way. Course the same logic applies north of Connolly/Fairview as far as Clongriffin at least once the north bound traffic exits the tunnel.
Doing KRP2 first as an enabling work for DU, not as a fag end add on afterwards, would:
a) be cheap , really it is a small bit of land acqusition ( if any) and raising/widening 2 bridges...one in Kylemore road.
b) mean that tunneling traffic and spoil would be separated from trains coming to and from Heuston if DU ever went ahead.
c) presently they plan to truck the spoil through the East Wall, a lot of that could be trained out west instead to fill a bog somewhere.
and it would mean in the short term that there are minimum 3 tracks ex Heuston instead of the current 3 then 2 then 4 configuration.
Doing the northern line as Quad track (from Fairview - Clongriffin) would have the same effect if it were brought forward. Then the 2 tracks peeled off into the tunnel are separated and usable as spoil lines and equipment movers during tunneling without affecting other services that must express through the slow commuter trains.
On the scale of the overall DU project which was a €4bn ish integrated vision thing those two 'Quad to the Portals' projects would make perfect sense early on and would have immediate benefits even if the tunnel never happened.
Sadly all the money has been stolen by bankers, consultants lawyers and accountants in South Dublin under the pretext of saving their banks (again). We bailed all these cnuts out in the 1980s as well with their ICI scam which money could better have been spent on vital Roads or Dart to Malahide instead.
There ya go.
Calm the fcuk down Sponge Bob. You are not alone and never were. All that you have said above is absolutely correct. I remember standing in the remnants of the "Brasserie" in Heuston station looking at the "plans" for the KRP. (the irony of the location and its "new" use didn't escape me either.) But I diverse. Anyway, upon looking at the plans our group quickly realised that a grey area existed between the proposed interconnector and the start of the KRP. It was bad enough that IE were planning to bring the interconnector above ground in the Guinness sidings, but when we fast forward to their revised plan to bring it up in Inchicore, we think it's solved until we look at the "gap" between there and the KRP. (as you have pointed out)
KRP2 is a glaring example of a company not actually having a firm grasp on what they are doing and I'd go as far as saying that it stinks of a very poor semi state still making sh1t up as they go along, based on the historic relationship between CIE and Government. Both fear and distrust each other, but successive Governments have left this to fester. A monster was created and left to morph into a semi-dependent rather that a semi state. It will never deliver anything close to a railway that we can be proud of, no matter how much money is thrown at it. Ultimately successive Governments are responsible and only they can change it.0 -
I was only giving out to Wild Bill..that because he deserved it. I often give out to Wild Bill for all the good it does long term.DWCommuter wrote: »Calm the fcuk down Sponge Bob. You are not alone and never were.
Sooner or later I will blame him for that 1970's plan to convert the canals in Dublin into Motorways and I will surely give out to him for it in the interests of consistency.DWCommuter wrote: »KRP2 is a glaring example of a company not actually having a firm grasp on what they are doing and I'd go as far as saying that it stinks of a very poor semi state still making sh1t up as they go along.
That is exactly what it was and exactly why I wouldn't give them a penny when an Express Bus will get me there quicker. DU changed as people told CIE their plans were bull****. I am sure you did it personally in Heuston but I avoid Dublin as much as possible me.
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Sponge Bob wrote: »I was only giving out to Wild Bill..that because he deserved it. I often give out to Wild Bill for all the good it does long term.
Sooner or later I will blame him for that 1970's plan to convert the canals in Dublin into Motorways and I will surely give out to him for it in the interests of consistency.
Yeah, motorising the canals was another lost opportunity. Exactly what the phuk is their current value in terms of transport infrastructure? Eh? Do I hear ZERO?
As was the failure to turn Temple Bar into a Grand Central Bus Station.
The dosh for all rail projects has now disappeared.
It seems buses are all the rage now with all the little "40-billion-for-Anglo-ok; but-let's-endlessly-debate-every-one-million-for-Project-X" minds.
Ok, I may not be serious about the canals..... :cool:0 -
DWCommuter wrote: »Calm the fcuk down Sponge Bob. You are not alone and never were. All that you have said above is absolutely correct. I remember standing in the remnants of the "Brasserie" in Heuston station looking at the "plans" for the KRP. (the irony of the location and its "new" use didn't escape me either.) But I diverse. Anyway, upon looking at the plans our group quickly realised that a grey area existed between the proposed interconnector and the start of the KRP. It was bad enough that IE were planning to bring the interconnector above ground in the Guinness sidings, but when we fast forward to their revised plan to bring it up in Inchicore, we think it's solved until we look at the "gap" between there and the KRP. (as you have pointed out)
KRP2 is a glaring example of a company not actually having a firm grasp on what they are doing and I'd go as far as saying that it stinks of a very poor semi state still making sh1t up as they go along, based on the historic relationship between CIE and Government. Both fear and distrust each other, but successive Governments have left this to fester. A monster was created and left to morph into a semi-dependent rather that a semi state. It will never deliver anything close to a railway that we can be proud of, no matter how much money is thrown at it. Ultimately successive Governments are responsible and only they can change it.
Ah the "Brasserie" - I have fond memories of it even further back when it was a restaurant and a well kept secret reserved for senior management and their pals. The best of dining with silver service. Fr.Reg Bryan even paid for my dinner in there back in the day. 0 -
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