Irish Soldiers who deserted during WWII to join the British Army & Starvation order

Fratton Fred · 01-02-2012 10:44am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Equally respectfully you are making some huge assumptions - not least that neither I or anyone else who is Irish has never lived in a multi-cultural society. Having lived for many many years in the east End of London where I worked as a housing estate based local authority community worker - I also lived on the estate- I have a great deal more experience of living with people of different ethnic origins, cultures and creeds then many English have. As do most of the other Irish who over the decades migrated to urban England - many of whom (in particular the 80s emigrants) returned here to raise their families.
My neighbours and work colleagues were Guyanese, Nigerian, Jamaican, St Lucian, Turkish, Greek, Cypriot, Kurdish, Chinese, Sri Lankan, Vietnamese, Bengali, Pakistani, Indian, Somali and a lovely South African couple. Oh and we had a lot of Irish...the majority of whom returned home in the mid-90s to live in West Cork, Sligo, Dublin, Galway, Mayo, Cork, Kerry, Wicklow, Leitrim, Wexford...

If you want to experience an insular mono-culture I suggest you visit the Cotswolds or the Norfolk Broads, or Cumbria, or Durham, or Devon or Somerset...

Nor was that example I gave of the academic the only time I had such an encounter. I had many of those in the decade I lived in either London or South Yorkshire. I remember being approached by an English politics lecturer in Sheffield in the early 90s collecting money for 'a women's community centre' in Belfast. I asked her, while reaching for my wallet, was this centre aimed at one particular community or did it have a non-Sectarian ethos. She responded aggressively and loudly demanded to know how I dared ask such a thing, didn't I know what 'those' women were suffering and how the Irish are being demonised!!

I responded that as I am both Irish and have visited NI many, many times as my sister lived in Belfast that yes, I did indeed have some idea of what life was like there and how it felt to be Irish in the UK. I enquired if she had ever been to Ireland - she had not.

Her next question, after she accused me of not being Irish because 'You don't sound Irish' (I do - I just have very good diction but apparently we're not supposed to have elocution lessons over here :eek:) was what part of Ireland was I from (obviously since I said I had 'visited' NI I wasn't from there but....duh!).

I replied I was from the Republic. 'Which bit is that?' she asked. I sighed and said 'The South'. At this she perked up and announced 'Oh, in that case it's for Catholics'. I dryly replied 'how dare you assume I am a Catholic and I do not support sectarian organisations'.
I actually knew this centre, had visited it and it was strictly non-Sectarian.
I originally asked the question as I suspected the woman, who lectured in politics, had no awareness of the socio-political background of the beneficiary of the contents of that wee box she was rattling under people's nose but was nontheless willing to give people the benefit of her ignorance and grandstand about a topic she knew nothing about. For her, it was nothing but a trendy cause that didn't merit the effort of trying to understand it.

I was also sent on mandatory racism awareness course (the Irish had officially been declared an ethnic minority) by L.B. Hackney and I have never heard such rubbish in my whole life when it came to the 'Irish Awareness' section. I refused to attend a similar course run by the GLC...but know that other Irish community workers wrote letters of complaint after that one.

A Jamaican friend, having recently been on a specifically 'Irish Awareness' 3 day course run by Camden, rushed up to my flat and spent hours urging me to get a British passport before new legislation was enacted which made it difficult for immigrants to claim. Through increasingly clenched teeth I replied over and over 'I have a passport'. She kept it up, dismissing my possession of an Irish passport with a wave of her hands, as if it was somehow inferior, and emphasising the importance and value of a British passport. In the end a French Jew interceded and explained it to her - to give her credit, my Jamaican friend was mortified when she understood the implications of what she was saying re: 'proper' passports. She had passed her 'Irish Awareness' course with flying colours....

Or perhaps you like to hear about the week long study session I attended in Manchester where out of 25 of us in my group, 23 -all white English- were stressing out trying to keep me and a woman from an Eniskillen Unionist background apart. They were genuinely afraid we would just go for each other. What actually happened when this woman and I finally met at the last night dinner was we have a great night discussing the rubbish each of us and been told about the other - and noting how similar the BS we were both told was -and insulting each others backgrounds, we laughed until we cried and were eventually asked to leave the restaurant at 2 a.m. so the staff could go home.
We had both been living in England for many years by that stage and agreed it was great to talk to someone who knew where we were coming from. The Southern 'Nationalist' and the Northern 'Unionist' found, once we got chatting, that we spoke the same language - and it was a language our English colleagues just couldn't comprehend.

I have a thousand more examples but I believe I have made my point.

Here in Ireland we constantly watch British TV shows, we vote in the X Factor, we shop in Debenhams and Marks, we read your newspapers, we watch your news programmes, we support your soccer teams, many of us have either lived or have close relatives/friends who live in GB.

How many in GB sit at home and watch Irish TV shows (and no - Father Ted doesn't count) and vote in whatever crap 'talent' contest is on RTE/TV3/TG4. How many shop in Dunnes or Brown Thomas?, Know The Examiner exists? Have ever seen Áine Lawlor read the news? Could even name an Irish soccer team? Have lived here or have friends/close relatives who have/do live here?
How many know who is taking the horse to France? Sucked a Silvermint? Drank Tanora, Cidona or TK? Believe that lemonade comes in 2 colours? Ate Tayto pub crisps? Understand that it started on the Late late Show? Ever had the urge to ring Joe? Know that a 'mad yoke' is not a dodgy egg? Or that 'I will. Yeah.' means 'I won't'? Indulge in 'hurling on the ditch'? Have ever been 'on the pig's back'? Called someone a langer?

We know what the Women's Institute is - how many English people know about the ICA?

We know a lot more about you then you do about us - we had to, you conquered us and made us learn your ways. You never bothered to learn ours because you didn't have to.

What you failed utterly to do was turn 'us' into 'you' - not for want of trying mind - and no matter what you think, we are as different from you as West Indians are- we just happen to have the same skin colour as you.

Lol, ok, point taken. In my defence, I will say that in my opinion, whilst culturally there is vast differences between the two countries (my favourite one is that Irish and UK companies seem to have a different culture. In Ireland mushroom management is more the norm, whereas on the UK staff are treated with more openess. I've worked for English managers in Ireland and Irish managers in England and I've found their styles vary on geography rather than their own nationality), individually, we aren't that different. We all speak English, watch football(of various codes), go to the pub and watch far too many soap operas.

Ok, there are differences in background, but in my opinion, someone from the east end of London could relate better to someone from Finglas better than they could someone from Truro.

May I suggest a read of Darragh O'Briain's book, Tickling the English, it is very good, especially if you have lived in both countries and can "get" both sets of people.

dubhthach · 01-02-2012 10:44am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

How many Irish people know about the Tolpuddle martyrs, the Peterloo massacre or the Harrowing of the North?

More importantly, how many Irish people know of the civil war. All country's are good at sweeping grubby history under the carpet.

There is no more reason why English schools should teach about the burning of Cork than they should about the history of Trinidad, or Martinique.

As far as I know the Harrowing of the North is mentioned briefly in Junior Cert history to do with Norman invasion of England. I also believe there is a mention of the Peterloo massacre along with the Chartists in the section and the expansion of franchise during the 19th century. (Leaving Cert history?)

I would imagine though the succession of a constituent part of what was then the UK by armed force should at least get a paragraph or two in British history books?

Fratton Fred · 01-02-2012 10:58am

dubhthach wrote: »

As far as I know the Harrowing of the North is mentioned briefly in Junior Cert history to do with Norman invasion of England. I also believe there is a mention of the Peterloo massacre along with the Chartists in the section and the expansion of franchise during the 19th century. (Leaving Cert history?)

I would imagine though the succession of a constituent part of what was then the UK by armed force should at least get a paragraph or two in British history books?

Things may have changed in the 25 years since I did my "O" Level history, but the main areas of study around that period were the league of nations, Versaille, Russia, Mussolini we did a lot on I'll Duce for some reason) and the rise of Hitler and the causes of WWII.

It is a period of history that shaped the 20th century and is very busy. I agree though, something on Ireland would be good. When I did it though, the troubles were in full flow and it may have been considered too politically charged.

dubhthach · 01-02-2012 11:15am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Things may have changed in the 25 years since I did my "O" Level history, but the main areas of study around that period were the league of nations, Versaille, Russia, Mussolini we did a lot on I'll Duce for some reason) and the rise of Hitler and the causes of WWII.

It is a period of history that shaped the 20th century and is very busy. I agree though, something on Ireland would be good. When I did it though, the troubles were in full flow and it may have been considered too politically charged.

Well for Leaving Cert (senior cycle) here they do (did? -- 1999 in my case)

Ireland since 1866 (to about 1967)
Europe from 1870 (to bout 1970)

Obviously as Ireland was part of UK from period 1866 to 1922 there's a fair bit regarding wider UK history. Stuff like Franchise reform etc. On European history we covered UK history in 1920's/30's as part of wider picture in context leading up to WWII. For example Jarrow March in 1936, who was Prime ministers, economic effects etc.

We do slightly similiar on France and Germany in the same time period.

As part of Junior Cycle (first three years) my memory is more hazy, but I can recall:

Norman invasion of Britain -- followed on by Norman invasion of Ireland
Reformation -- Henry VIII -- Tudors
Age of Exploration -- including English colonisation in Americas
English Civil War -- direct knock on in Ireland
Glorious Revolution -- as it ties in with "War of two kings"
Napoleonic war / American Revolutionary War / 1798 -- act of Union
Industrial / Agricultural revolution in Britain

Those give us a general view into wider British history, obviously alot of them have direct connections into Irish history.

Fratton Fred · 01-02-2012 11:51am

So what is taught in Ireland about the famine, 1916, war of independence, partition, civil war etc?

Is this taught at junior/leaving cert level or at a more junior age? These are the events that pretty much define modern Ireland and yet it amazes me how poor a lot of people's knowledge is of these matters.

dubhthach · 01-02-2012 12:01pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So what is taught in Ireland about the famine, 1916, war of independence, partition, civil war etc?

Is this taught at junior/leaving cert level or at a more junior age? These are the events that pretty much define modern Ireland and yet it amazes me how poor a lot of people's knowledge is of these matters.

History is only a compulsory subject for Junior Cert. Which is the first three years in secondary school (5 years). We cover both at Junior/Leaving Cycles. Particulary at Senior Cycle as half Leaving Cert curriculum is Ireland (1866-1967). Whereas Junior Cert ranges from Stone age to 20th century.

However only bout 15-20% of students take History at Senior cycle. It's compulsory for Junior cert.

CDfm · 01-02-2012 1:23pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

There is no more reason why English schools should teach about the burning of Cork

Its part of their history and was an action of their soldiers that fostered distrust which caused public opinion to be against joining the Allies in WWII out of fear of British occupation.

A good enough reason, I think.

You could see when the Queen visited how popular she was so -it was not an anti-British people thing not joining the Allies.

Fratton Fred · 01-02-2012 1:58pm

CDfm wrote: »

Its part of their history and was an action of their soldiers that fostered distrust which caused public opinion to be against joining the Allies in WWII out of fear of British occupation.

A good enough reason, I think.

You could see when the Queen visited how popular she was so -it was not an anti-British people thing not joining the Allies.

It wasn't fear or mistrust though, it was simply that it could have caused a civil war.

Dress it up as much as you like, the simple fact of this whole thing is, people who deserted and joined the British army, were treated like pariahs, the insurgents that they were supposed to be protecting the country from and were interned ended up being treated as heroes.

dubhthach · 01-02-2012 2:09pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

the insurgents that they were supposed to be protecting the country from and were interned ended up being treated as heroes.

6 of them were executed after been found guilty in front of Military Tribunals. The Emergency Powers act suspending their constutional right to trial by civilian court. I don't think any of the IRA men interned in Tintown (Curragh) were given state employment after WWII tbh. In which case they would have been in an equal position as anyone who had deserted to the British army.

getz · 01-02-2012 2:27pm

many people in both england and ireland know little about each other,for inst how many young irishmen in this age know about the manchester martyrs,or even yorkshire[except for emmerdale] yet manchester has a shrine to dead irish freedom fighters,and yorkshire has a bigger population than ireland.

CDfm · 01-02-2012 2:28pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It wasn't fear or mistrust though, it was simply that it could have caused a civil war.

See Dubhtach's post on the executions in the Curragh.

It was both , one was a military matter and the other civilian and a civil war was not in Britain's or Ireland's interest.

It had been only about 20 or so years since 1916-21 and there was an understandable "who shot my Pa" element about it too.

Dress it up as much as you like, the simple fact of this whole thing is, people who deserted and joined the British army, were treated like pariahs, the insurgents that they were supposed to be protecting the country from and were interned ended up being treated as heroes.

Its a case of competing priorities. Deserters were not treated as pariahs but the order was given taking them out of the military justice system to enable those who wanted to return to do so.

Ireland's own army was scaling down too and there was a 7 year bar on state employment for all deserters and that gave our own soldiers first dibs on all jobs going. Also bear in mind there were high levels of emigration anyway.

Ireland did make it extraordinarily easy for its citizens to join the British forces.

I don't think people joining the British Forces were treated as pariahs.

Gee Bag · 01-02-2012 2:33pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So what is taught in Ireland about the famine, 1916, war of independence, partition, civil war etc?

Is this taught at junior/leaving cert level or at a more junior age? These are the events that pretty much define modern Ireland and yet it amazes me how poor a lot of people's knowledge is of these matters.

Hi Fred,

I agree with you on the poor grasp a lot of irish people have on their history. Though I would suggest that this impression is probably magnified by the anti-British posters on boards.ie

History is compulsory up to junior cert. Irish history as thought in schools pretty much consists of a series of rebellions that started off pretty well for our lads followed by a serious hiding when troops were shipped in from Britain. The gaps between the wars and rebellions are filled with famine, religous & cultural repression, and dispossesion of land. When you take in all of these major events there isn't really much room for the other bits and bobs.

Some may see this as Brit-bashing and I have heard it argued (by Irish people) that there should be a 'sure aren't we all friends now' approach to teaching kids history, emphasising the positive aspects of British Rule. I wouldn't go as far as to call this revisionism, but I loathe the idea of toning down history to suit current political agendas. You can't get kids to understand the subtle bits of history if they don't understand the overall pattern of dates and facts.

The past is the past, it can't be changed.

pedroeibar1 · 01-02-2012 4:15pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Lol, ok, point taken. In my defence, I will say that in my opinion, whilst culturally there is vast differences between the two countries (my favourite one is that Irish and UK companies seem to have a different culture. In Ireland mushroom management is more the norm, whereas on the UK staff are treated with more openess. I've worked for English managers in Ireland and Irish managers in England and I've found their styles vary on geography rather than their own nationality), individually, we aren't that different. We all speak English, watch football(of various codes), go to the pub and watch far too many soap operas.

Even though its going OT, FrattonF, I completely disagree with you on several points.

My work is primarily in the export sector, I've lived and worked overseas for years. English is the base of a common language, but the accent is as much a barrier as a foreign tongue. (Look , for eg at Apple's speech recognition failure in Scotland:eek:) as are cultural/racial attributes and differences. The biggest mistake any indigenous company can make when starting to export is to treat the new market ‘the same as home’ just because the same language is spoken. Irish exporters to UK and UK exporters to Ireland all have fallen into that very trap, despite the efforts of Enterprise Ireland & the BOT. What I find most annoying is a very prevalent attitude in UK companies when moving into Ireland, one of ‘We’ll show Paddy how to do it properly’. That is best illustrated by UK companies arriving in Ireland and losing their shirts – particularly those British banks who led the charge into lending to the property sector. I once caused consternation at a management meeting in London when an arrogant senior executive passed an ill-informed comment on the ability of the Irish branch to achieve an objective and I responded ‘That should not be a problem, we have the electric now.’

The Irish & English are very different – history, heritage and outlook being only aspect of the reason. England had an Empire, international respect, etc, and is the cornerstone of a world language (OK, we’re better at it!:D) Ireland is a small country on the edge of Europe; until recently the Irish never offended anyone. We travelled, we learned from relatives overseas, etc. We were (are?) informed. Our psyche has been affected by this, we are afraid of being cut off from news, information, etc. That is IMO why the general knowledge of our general population is considerably higher than its UK counterpart. Go to the wilds of Kerry or Connemara and in a small bar a local will be able to talk about world events. Not so in most of the UK in my experience.

Management styles are most influenced by corporate culture, not by nationality or geography. Irish management style is more dogmatic, young executives are more likely to take initiaves. Not so in the UK. Elsewhere, even the French national love of ‘consensus’ – the norm in big (usually staid) French institutions – is completely overcome in the newer, more vibrant French companies, where the culture is set from the top down, often by a manager/owner who has worked overseas.

As for the 'Sun' and soaps, although I am neither Gaelgoir nor ardent nationalist I despair at the dumbing down of our Irish culture, the worst excesses of which arose during the Celtic Tiger years and continue with the drivel shown on national TV..

I'm surprised that nobody has yet mentioned Wilde’s comment on the Irish Question being ‘dull-witted people trying to govern a quick-witted one’. Or some others:

The British are special. The world knows it. In our innermost thoughts we know it. This is the greatest nation on earth.
Tony Blair

The Englishman has all the qualities of a poker except its occasional warmth.
Daniel O'Connell

Bannasidhe · 01-02-2012 4:40pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I'm surprised that nobody has yet mentioned Wilde’s comment on the Irish Question being ‘dull-witted people trying to govern a quick-witted one’. Or some others:

The British are special. The world knows it. In our innermost thoughts we know it. This is the greatest nation on earth.
Tony Blair

The Englishman has all the qualities of a poker except its occasional warmth.
Daniel O'Connell

Reminds me of a story a friend, and Cork wit, who had an important position at Fords told me. He was sent over to Dagenham and was hardly in the door when one of the middle managers there complained that as he couldn't understand what the Cork man was saying it was safe to assume there was no point in attending the meeting.

'Paddy'*, said the manager 'You talk too quick!'
'Hera Narrah'all Tommy' responded Paddy 'Tis the way you think too slow.'

*His name really is Paddy - but the manager - whose name wasn't 'Tommy' didn't know that.

Fratton Fred · 01-02-2012 5:34pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Even though its going OT, FrattonF, I completely disagree with you on several points.

My work is primarily in the export sector, I've lived and worked overseas for years. English is the base of a common language, but the accent is as much a barrier as a foreign tongue. (Look , for eg at Apple's speech recognition failure in Scotland:eek:) as are cultural/racial attributes and differences. The biggest mistake any indigenous company can make when starting to export is to treat the new market ‘the same as home’ just because the same language is spoken. Irish exporters to UK and UK exporters to Ireland all have fallen into that very trap, despite the efforts of Enterprise Ireland & the BOT. What I find most annoying is a very prevalent attitude in UK companies when moving into Ireland, one of ‘We’ll show Paddy how to do it properly’. That is best illustrated by UK companies arriving in Ireland and losing their shirts – particularly those British banks who led the charge into lending to the property sector. I once caused consternation at a management meeting in London when an arrogant senior executive passed an ill-informed comment on the ability of the Irish branch to achieve an objective and I responded ‘That should not be a problem, we have the electric now.’

The Irish & English are very different – history, heritage and outlook being only aspect of the reason. England had an Empire, international respect, etc, and is the cornerstone of a world language (OK, we’re better at it!:D) Ireland is a small country on the edge of Europe; until recently the Irish never offended anyone. We travelled, we learned from relatives overseas, etc. We were (are?) informed. Our psyche has been affected by this, we are afraid of being cut off from news, information, etc. That is IMO why the general knowledge of our general population is considerably higher than its UK counterpart. Go to the wilds of Kerry or Connemara and in a small bar a local will be able to talk about world events. Not so in most of the UK in my experience.

Management styles are most influenced by corporate culture, not by nationality or geography. Irish management style is more dogmatic, young executives are more likely to take initiaves. Not so in the UK. Elsewhere, even the French national love of ‘consensus’ – the norm in big (usually staid) French institutions – is completely overcome in the newer, more vibrant French companies, where the culture is set from the top down, often by a manager/owner who has worked overseas.

As for the 'Sun' and soaps, although I am neither Gaelgoir nor ardent nationalist I despair at the dumbing down of our Irish culture, the worst excesses of which arose during the Celtic Tiger years and continue with the drivel shown on national TV..

I'm surprised that nobody has yet mentioned Wilde’s comment on the Irish Question being ‘dull-witted people trying to govern a quick-witted one’. Or some others:

The British are special. The world knows it. In our innermost thoughts we know it. This is the greatest nation on earth.
Tony Blair

The Englishman has all the qualities of a poker except its occasional warmth.
Daniel O'Connell

We are in danger of turning this into some sort of willy waving contest, it wasn't my intention to do that.

A.Tomas · 01-02-2012 5:54pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Equally respectfully you are making some huge assumptions - not least that neither I or anyone else who is Irish has never lived in a multi-cultural society. Having lived for many many years in the east End of London where I worked as a housing estate based local authority community worker - I also lived on the estate- I have a great deal more experience of living with people of different ethnic origins, cultures and creeds then many English have. As do most of the other Irish who over the decades migrated to urban England - many of whom (in particular the 80s emigrants) returned here to raise their families.
My neighbours and work colleagues were Guyanese, Nigerian, Jamaican, St Lucian, Turkish, Greek, Cypriot, Kurdish, Chinese, Sri Lankan, Vietnamese, Bengali, Pakistani, Indian, Somali and a lovely South African couple. Oh and we had a lot of Irish...the majority of whom returned home in the mid-90s to live in West Cork, Sligo, Dublin, Galway, Mayo, Cork, Kerry, Wicklow, Leitrim, Wexford...

If you want to experience an insular mono-culture I suggest you visit the Cotswolds or the Norfolk Broads, or Cumbria, or Durham, or Devon or Somerset...

Nor was that example I gave of the academic the only time I had such an encounter. I had many of those in the decade I lived in either London or South Yorkshire. I remember being approached by an English politics lecturer in Sheffield in the early 90s collecting money for 'a women's community centre' in Belfast. I asked her, while reaching for my wallet, was this centre aimed at one particular community or did it have a non-Sectarian ethos. She responded aggressively and loudly demanded to know how I dared ask such a thing, didn't I know what 'those' women were suffering and how the Irish are being demonised!!

I responded that as I am both Irish and have visited NI many, many times as my sister lived in Belfast that yes, I did indeed have some idea of what life was like there and how it felt to be Irish in the UK. I enquired if she had ever been to Ireland - she had not.

Her next question, after she accused me of not being Irish because 'You don't sound Irish' (I do - I just have very good diction but apparently we're not supposed to have elocution lessons over here :eek:) was what part of Ireland was I from (obviously since I said I had 'visited' NI I wasn't from there but....duh!).

I replied I was from the Republic. 'Which bit is that?' she asked. I sighed and said 'The South'. At this she perked up and announced 'Oh, in that case it's for Catholics'. I dryly replied 'how dare you assume I am a Catholic and I do not support sectarian organisations'.
I actually knew this centre, had visited it and it was strictly non-Sectarian.
I originally asked the question as I suspected the woman, who lectured in politics, had no awareness of the socio-political background of the beneficiary of the contents of that wee box she was rattling under people's nose but was nontheless willing to give people the benefit of her ignorance and grandstand about a topic she knew nothing about. For her, it was nothing but a trendy cause that didn't merit the effort of trying to understand it.

I was also sent on mandatory racism awareness course (the Irish had officially been declared an ethnic minority) by L.B. Hackney and I have never heard such rubbish in my whole life when it came to the 'Irish Awareness' section. I refused to attend a similar course run by the GLC...but know that other Irish community workers wrote letters of complaint after that one.

A Jamaican friend, having recently been on a specifically 'Irish Awareness' 3 day course run by Camden, rushed up to my flat and spent hours urging me to get a British passport before new legislation was enacted which made it difficult for immigrants to claim. Through increasingly clenched teeth I replied over and over 'I have a passport'. She kept it up, dismissing my possession of an Irish passport with a wave of her hands, as if it was somehow inferior, and emphasising the importance and value of a British passport. In the end a French Jew interceded and explained it to her - to give her credit, my Jamaican friend was mortified when she understood the implications of what she was saying re: 'proper' passports. She had passed her 'Irish Awareness' course with flying colours....

Or perhaps you like to hear about the week long study session I attended in Manchester where out of 25 of us in my group, 23 -all white English- were stressing out trying to keep me and a woman from an Eniskillen Unionist background apart. They were genuinely afraid we would just go for each other. What actually happened when this woman and I finally met at the last night dinner was we have a great night discussing the rubbish each of us and been told about the other - and noting how similar the BS we were both told was -and insulting each others backgrounds, we laughed until we cried and were eventually asked to leave the restaurant at 2 a.m. so the staff could go home.
We had both been living in England for many years by that stage and agreed it was great to talk to someone who knew where we were coming from. The Southern 'Nationalist' and the Northern 'Unionist' found, once we got chatting, that we spoke the same language - and it was a language our English colleagues just couldn't comprehend.

I have a thousand more examples but I believe I have made my point.

Here in Ireland we constantly watch British TV shows, we vote in the X Factor, we shop in Debenhams and Marks, we read your newspapers, we watch your news programmes, we support your soccer teams, many of us have either lived or have close relatives/friends who live in GB.

How many in GB sit at home and watch Irish TV shows (and no - Father Ted doesn't count) and vote in whatever crap 'talent' contest is on RTE/TV3/TG4. How many shop in Dunnes or Brown Thomas?, Know The Examiner exists? Have ever seen Áine Lawlor read the news? Could even name an Irish soccer team? Have lived here or have friends/close relatives who have/do live here?
How many know who is taking the horse to France? Sucked a Silvermint? Drank Tanora, Cidona or TK? Believe that lemonade comes in 2 colours? Ate Tayto pub crisps? Understand that it started on the Late late Show? Ever had the urge to ring Joe? Know that a 'mad yoke' is not a dodgy egg? Or that 'I will. Yeah.' means 'I won't'? Indulge in 'hurling on the ditch'? Have ever been 'on the pig's back'? Called someone a langer?

We know what the Women's Institute is - how many English people know about the ICA?

We know a lot more about you then you do about us - we had to, you conquered us and made us learn your ways. You never bothered to learn ours because you didn't have to.

What you failed utterly to do was turn 'us' into 'you' - not for want of trying mind - and no matter what you think, we are as different from you as West Indians are- we just happen to have the same skin colour as you.

You've had an interesting life Bannasidhe.

Just to be fair to the lady lecturer. I always assumed that maybe left leaning people (possibly including her) in the UK would have overt sympathy/awareness for nationalists in the North.
In fact they probably just know simple things about NI, (because many don't!) and understand it to a certain degree. i.e. they don't blame the victims.
Indeed, it isn't so much of surprise that if the far right in Britain supported "their side" (unionist regime/soldiers/govt,etc.) so maybe they were reacting to the Daily Mail/Telegraph types.

Still though, the awareness course, yikes!!!

The way the Jamaican woman fawned over a British passport is unsettling, because it could have been us! or indeed she thought we were subjects like her!

pedroeibar1 · 01-02-2012 5:55pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You seem to be turning this into some sort of willy waving contest, I don't want to do that.

Not my intention at all.
P.

Fratton Fred · 01-02-2012 8:17pm

A.Tomas wrote: »

The way the Jamaican woman fawned over a British passport is unsettling, because it could have been us! or indeed she thought we were subjects like her!

"Subjects" has nothing to do with it.

It isn't that long ago that Jamaica and the UK shared a common travel agreement, similar to the one Ireland and the UK has. Or, put simply, you didn't need a passport to come to the UK and work.

Now, it has gone to needing a permit, to requiring a visa.

To a Jamaican wishing to stay and work in the UK, holding a British passport would be a big advantage. If she thought the same applied to the Irish, then she probably thought she was helping.

CDfm · 01-02-2012 8:37pm

A.Tomas wrote: »

The way the Jamaican woman fawned over a British passport is unsettling, because it could have been us! or indeed she thought we were subjects like her!

An EU passport is a valuable commodity and gives one ( & potentially ones children) the right to live & work & get educated throughout the EU.

Bannasidhe · 01-02-2012 9:36pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

"Subjects" has nothing to do with it.

It isn't that long ago that Jamaica and the UK shared a common travel agreement, similar to the one Ireland and the UK has. Or, put simply, you didn't need a passport to come to the UK and work.

Now, it has gone to needing a permit, to requiring a visa.

To a Jamaican wishing to stay and work in the UK, holding a British passport would be a big advantage. If she thought the same applied to the Irish, then she probably thought she was helping.

Jamaican born - raised in Hackney from the age of two and holder of a British passport. My issue was her dismissal of my Irish passport as inferior to a British passport. Where could she have possibly gotten the impression that a British passport is superior to an Irish passport I wonder?

As she had recently aced her Irish Awareness course - one would think she would be aware of the legal status of the Irish living in the UK....

Fratton Fred · 01-02-2012 9:50pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Jamaican born - raised in Hackney from the age of two and holder of a British passport. My issue was her dismissal of my Irish passport as inferior to a British passport. Where could she have possibly gotten the impression that a British passport is superior to an Irish passport I wonder?

As she had recently aced her Irish Awareness course - one would think she would be aware of the legal status of the Irish living in the UK....

Was this the same time Hackney were using Tracy lives with Daddy and Trevor (or whatever it was called) as a primary school reading book?

Bannasidhe · 01-02-2012 9:56pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Was this the same time Hackney were using Tracy lives with Daddy and Trevor (or whatever it was called) as a primary school reading book?

It was Jenny Lives With Eric and Martin and it was only ever used as a primary school book in the fevered imaginations of Section 28 supporting homophobes.

I still have a copy actually - I read it to my grandchildren. It's a lovely wee toddlers book.

pedroeibar1 · 01-02-2012 10:11pm

CDfm wrote: »

An EU passport is a valuable commodity and gives one ( & potentially ones children) the right to live & work & get educated throughout the EU.

In theory yes, for work; certainly not much use for education, where an EU passport counts for little. It is considerably more complex than your statement.

For education an EU passport is a very basic initial step in the entry requirements - ok if it a local national school, but beyond that it is very complex.
The key rules are based on where the parent(s) is tax resident, for how long and where the child was educated and for how long. When I had to put my youngest through college without the 'overseas' fees being applied (+/- €12k p.a. at the time) the rule was three of the previous five years had to be in fulltime education in an EU country. Exemptions for Irish (for NUI) was another ream of paperwork, not to mention the whole CAO application process.
That is why we don't have yanks with Irish passports turning up in droves at NUI & Trinity looking for free frees and college entry.
Don't even try to get me going on the subject of an EU citizen working in France, the hassle of a carte de sejour, carte de travail, livret de famille, etc.:mad: I'd hate to be Senegalese.

Fratton Fred · 01-02-2012 10:59pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It was Jenny Lives With Eric and Martin and it was only ever used as a primary school book in the fevered imaginations of Section 28 supporting homophobes.

I still have a copy actually - I read it to my grandchildren. It's a lovely wee toddlers book.

That was it, the good old days of looney left wing councils and paranoid right wing governments and media.

From what I recall of working in the youth service at the time, an Irish awareness course would have been par for the course.

I'm intrigued to understand why you think your friend may have thought an Irish passport inferior to a British one, was it just ignorance?

Fratton Fred · 01-02-2012 11:45pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Not my intention at all. A response would bring it futher off topic, so I'm not going to act the dick.
P.

It would make a great discussion, the differences between us. Unfortunately it doesn't fit here and could quite easily descend into chaos.

I've amended my earlier post, it was far too aggressive and unfair.

CDfm · 02-02-2012 12:04am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It would make a great discussion, the differences between us. Unfortunately it doesn't fit here and could quite easily descend into chaos.

You could do a British History Intro of your favorite parts like the Tolpuddle Martyrs with what you think are good links.

You won't know if you don't try .

Bannasidhe · 02-02-2012 12:23am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That was it, the good old days of looney left wing councils and paranoid right wing governments and media.

From what I recall of working in the youth service at the time, an Irish awareness course would have been par for the course.

I'm intrigued to understand why you think your friend may have thought an Irish passport inferior to a British one, was it just ignorance?

Perhaps partly ignorance, but mainly I think it was a conflict of perceptions born out of her recognising the Irish as 'Not British but living in Britain' coupled with having been educated to see British as Best. She kept explaining all the reasons why a British passport was better then an Irish one - one of those 'Well this can do that', 'yeah, mine too.' conversations. It really did take a French Jew to explain that both passports were equal and that it was a bit insulting to keep telling a person that their passport (and by implication country) was inferior to yours. The killer point was when it was pointed out that she never, ever, suggested that a British passport was preferable to a French one - that one caught her on the hop and she replied 'But it isn't...'. At that point the penny dropped

.

pedroeibar1 · 02-02-2012 10:15am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It would make a great discussion, the differences between us. Unfortunately it doesn't fit here and could quite easily descend into chaos.

I've amended my earlier post, it was far too aggressive and unfair.

It would make a great discussion, most likely very enjoyable, but would eat up a huge amount of time that I'don't have for the next week or so.
BTW, no offence taken.:)
P.

Bannasidhe · 02-02-2012 12:32pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

In theory yes, for work; certainly not much use for education, where an EU passport counts for little. It is considerably more complex than your statement.
For education an EU passport is a very basic initial step in the entry requirements - ok if it a local national school, but beyond that it is very complex.
The key rules are based on where the parent(s) is tax resident, for how long and where the child was educated and for how long. When I had to put my youngest through college without the 'overseas' fees being applied (+/- €12k p.a. at the time) the rule was three of the previous five years had to be in fulltime education in an EU country. Exemptions for Irish (for NUI) was another ream of paperwork, not to mention the whole CAO application process.
That is why we don't have yanks with Irish passports turning up in droves at NUI & Trinity looking for free frees and college entry.
Don't even try to get me going on the subject of an EU citizen working in France, the hassle of a carte de sejour, carte de travail, livret de famille, etc.:mad: I'd hate to be Senegalese.

Having listened to my brother's rants on this you have my full sympathy. He says it is costing him a fortune to keep his eldest daughter in Art College in Paris - and she has 2 EU passports (and a Swiss one) but as the family are also officially Swiss residents...He insists her year in Canada worked out cheaper then a semester in Paris -including flights when she got 'homesick'. They looked at sending her to Dun Laoghaire - she is studying animation so that was a logical choice- but the cost of that nearly gave him a heart attack. I think the paperwork would have finished him off.

CDfm · 03-02-2012 9:07am

A very important point is that not all Irishmen were welcome in Britain or rehabilitated post independence.

tac foley wrote: »

Interesting post, gentlemen. Not all Irishmen going over the water got their wish. My dad was a bus driver in Co Cork, after serving his country as a soldier during and after the Civil War. He went over to England in 1942 for reasons that might have been familial, after all, every single one of his immediate family [brother and four sisters and all their families] were already there, incidentally leaving his wife and two sons behind. He was treated like the former crown prisoner that he was, and had to report to a police station every saturday morning, so HE wasn't exactly welcomed with open arms. As a result of his earlier anti-crown activities during the War of Independence [he was a fine demolition operative and skilled arsonist, specialising in converting police stations], and that he was also a jailbird, he was not permitted to join the armed forces of the crown. Nevertheless, he ended up as a civilian worker, repairing tanks with his well-developed skills as a welder amd metal worker - learned whilst trying to keep old buses on the awful roads of pre-war Co. Cork.

He also met my mom. But that's another story for another day.

Apologies for the slight thread drift.

tac

Irish Soldiers who deserted during WWII to join the British Army & Starvation order

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