Wind farm for the Midlands

Capt'n Midnight · 21-09-2013 12:05pm

Greensleeves wrote: »

To be honest compulsory purchase orders would at least mean that all the shabby carry-on that has blighted Greenwire and Energy Bridge from the outset could be avoided. Nobody would feel let down that their neighbour hadn't bothered to tell them that they'd signed a lease for a turbine, they wouldn't feel that their county councillors were representing the interests of wind companies instead of the electorate, etc.

Is there any legal obligation to tell your neighbours that you've signed a lease ?

If you've seen The Field you'll know that some people get mightily upset over rights they think they have.

Bottom line, there's money involved and begrudgery too.

On the political side.
There is a definition of an honest councillor being one that when bought stays bought.

Given the revelations of the tribunals and the numerous successful prosecutions of councillors country wide for dishonesty countrywide this is more than a joke. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence of people getting planning permission with a brown envelope and some councils spent up to 50% of their time debating Section 4's - a loophole that allowed one-off planning permission in rare circumstances.

yes there are honest councillors too

And a reminder that the fossil fuel prices have shot up in recent years which means wind has gotten comparatively cheaper even before you factor in the cost reductions of newer technology and benefits of scale.

Greensleeves · 22-09-2013 4:35pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Is there any legal obligation to tell your neighbours that you've signed a lease ?

Its the moral and ethical obligation that is in doubt, not the legal one; the very concept of neighbourliness is in the dock.

If you've seen The Field you'll know that some people get mightily upset over rights they think they have.

A version of The Field is unfolding in rural communities across the midlands at the moment.

Bottom line, there's money involved and begrudgery too.

I'm afraid that money doesn't absolve anyone of shabby behaviour.

Greensleeves · 22-09-2013 4:40pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

On the political side.
There is a definition of an honest councillor being one that when bought stays bought.

Given the revelations of the tribunals and the numerous successful prosecutions of councillors country wide for dishonesty countrywide this is more than a joke. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence of people getting planning permission with a brown envelope and some councils spent up to 50% of their time debating Section 4's - a loophole that allowed one-off planning permission in rare circumstances.

yes there are honest councillors too

I wasn't suggesting that there was something underhand going on; I think most county councillors genuinely believed that these projects were a good idea. Now that they realise the amount of local opposition some of them have switched sides and are now very against wind turbines. Westmeath County Council voted last week by a majority of 16 to 4 to tighten its policies on industrial wind farms in the new county development plan.

The new measure says that the council will "strictly" direct industrial wind projects to cutaway or cutover bogs.

It also lays down a definition of what constitutes an "industrial" wind farm development - one containing turbines of over 100m to blade tip; one of five or more turbines; or one with an output of 5 MW.

In a separate vote, councillors opted to approve a proposal by Cllr Johnny Penrose (Lab) that turbines of 100m or more be required to be set back from residences by a distance of 10 times the height of the turbine.

http://www.westmeathexaminer.ie/news/roundup/articles/2013/09/18/4017640-westmeath-councillors-vote-to-direct-wind-projects-to-bog-areas/#sthash.P7W0GcvR.uxfs

Greensleeves · 22-09-2013 4:57pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

And a reminder that the fossil fuel prices have shot up in recent years which means wind has gotten comparatively cheaper even before you factor in the cost reductions of newer technology and benefits of scale.

It is hard to square this with the fact that Denmark and Germany have some of the most expensive electricity in Europe.

According to Bloomberg Germans are now paying more for electricity than any other nation in the European Union except Cyprus and Denmark. German companies - including wind turbine manufacturer Siemens AG - want the government to stop the subsidies for renewables that they blame for the high cost of power.

German Industry Wants End of Feed-in Tariff on Rising Power Cost
By Stefan Nicola - Sep 19, 2013

Germany’s biggest companies want Chancellor Angela Merkel to abolish a subsidy that made the country Europe’s biggest clean-energy market and helped saddle it with some of the highest power prices in the region.

The BDI industry federation that represents about 100,000 companies including Siemens AG (SIE) and Volkswagen AG (VOW) wants to get rid of feed-in tariffs that guarantee owners of new clean-energy plants above-market payments for 20 years under the EEG renewable law. Instead, it wants developers to sell their power on the market to encourage output that responds to demand rather than whether the wind is blowing or the sun shining.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-09-19/german-industry-wants-end-of-feed-in-tariff-on-rising-power-cost.html

Capt'n Midnight · 22-09-2013 7:27pm

Greensleeves wrote: »

Its the moral and ethical obligation that is in doubt, not the legal one; the very concept of neighbourliness is in the dock.

A version of The Field is unfolding in rural communities across the midlands at the moment.

I'm afraid that money doesn't absolve anyone of shabby behaviour.

LOL

If there is one constant of rural Ireland it's people leaving the land to go to the cities or emigrate because they don't have enough money

Capt'n Midnight · 22-09-2013 7:30pm

Greensleeves wrote: »

I wasn't suggesting that there was something underhand going on; I think most county councillors genuinely believed that these projects were a good idea. Now that they realise the amount of local opposition some of them have switched sides and are now very against wind turbines.

whoever pays the best or shouts the loudest ...

It also lays down a definition of what constitutes an "industrial" wind farm development - one containing turbines of over 100m to blade tip; one of five or more turbines; or one with an output of 5 MW.

This curtails development of more efficient turbines. Just means the wind farms will consist of more smaller turbines , possibly of older design.

Greensleeves · 26-09-2013 5:12pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

If there is one constant of rural Ireland it's people leaving the land to go to the cities or emigrate because they don't have enough money

I'm afraid the béal bocht is a bit misplaced. It is the big, well-off farmers of the midlands that are benefiting from this, not the poor farmers.

Capt'n Midnight · 28-09-2013 11:59am

Greensleeves wrote: »

I'm afraid the béal bocht is a bit misplaced. It is the big, well-off farmers of the midlands that are benefiting from this, not the poor farmers.

So no change there since the first agricultural cities in the Middle East allowed people to consolidate wealth.

Unfortunately the golden rule applies, the people with the gold will try to make the rules.

AFAIK under Irish law there is no right to a view.

At least it's not like Scotland where the owners of 90% of the land area could fit on a single airplane.

So the problem isn't so much the turbines themselves, it's the accumulation of wealth in the hands of a few who don't have to take their less well off neighbours into consideration.

Look on the bright side, we still don't have most of the productive land owned by large agri-business like they do in the US

robp · 30-09-2013 3:20pm

Greensleeves wrote: »

I wasn't suggesting that there was something underhand going on; I think most county councillors genuinely believed that these projects were a good idea. Now that they realise the amount of local opposition some of them have switched sides and are now very against wind turbines. Westmeath County Council voted last week by a majority of 16 to 4 to tighten its policies on industrial wind farms in the new county development plan.

The new measure says that the council will "strictly" direct industrial wind projects to cutaway or cutover bogs.

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that is the wrong idea in my opinion. Windfarms are perfectly compatible with with rural housing but they are not compatible with wild areas. Former industrial bogs should be reserved for rehabilitated wild lands. The Midlands bogs were Ireland's last wilderness areas and we have a moral obligation to bring at least some of them back to that state.

Tomjim · 04-10-2013 10:10pm

I was at a meeting recently where a Fingleton chap spoke against the wind turbines this guy also appeared on Prime time. He is from Co Laois and advised the meeting that he lived in an area where a company sought to establish wind mills.

From what he says he spends a lot of time going to meetings researching the internet.

Question who is paying this guy to oppose the turbines?

Greensleeves · 05-10-2013 10:49am

Tomjim wrote: »

I was at a meeting recently where a Fingleton chap spoke against the wind turbines this guy also appeared on Prime time. He is from Co Laois and advised the meeting that he lived in an area where a company sought to establish wind mills.

From what he says he spends a lot of time going to meetings researching the internet.

Question who is paying this guy to oppose the turbines?

I think I know the chap you are talking about; he was campaigning against a windfarm on Coillte land at Cullenagh, Co. Laois as well as against the big midlands projects. The Cullenagh windfarm was refused permission by Laois Co. Council during the week.

I don't think anyone is paying him. The various anti-wind groups fundraise and use that money to pay for placards, phone calls, printing, etc., but nobody is paid a salary AFAIK.

I think this is the website of the group that he's part of so you could contact them and find out. http://peopleoverwind.com/

Tomjim · 05-10-2013 11:03pm

Greensleeves wrote: »

I think I know the chap you are talking about; he was campaigning against a windfarm on Coillte land at Cullenagh, Co. Laois as well as against the big midlands projects. The Cullenagh windfarm was refused permission by Laois Co. Council during the week.

I don't think anyone is paying him. The various anti-wind groups fundraise and use that money to pay for placards, phone calls, printing, etc., but nobody is paid a salary AFAIK.

I think this is the website of the group that he's part of so you could contact them and find out. http://peopleoverwind.com/

Thanks

I just don't understand why some one would put so much time and effort into something with no obvious gain.

Strange?

Greensleeves · 06-10-2013 12:30pm

Tomjim wrote: »

Thanks

I just don't understand why some one would put so much time and effort into something with no obvious gain.

Strange?

I suppose it's the same as volunteering. If you feel passionate enough about something you will put the time and effort into it. When I'm back at the homeplace in the midlands I am always amazed that the mother is out doing so much voluntary stuff. The oddest of all is voluntary litter picking. I'd be of the opinion that it was up to the county council but she sees it as a case of getting off your backside rather than whingeing.

And there is an obvious gain to protesting if you stop whatever it is you are protesting about.

pburns · 07-10-2013 3:44pm

Tomjim wrote: »

Thanks

I just don't understand why some one would put so much time and effort into something with no obvious gain.

Strange?

I don't think it's strange at all.

Why do you assume that everything is determined by monetary gain? He does not want his family to have to live in the shadow of wind turbines, surely that's incentive enough?

Green&Red · 07-10-2013 4:34pm

From Thursdays IWEA conference

“WIND ENERGY PROJECT CAN ONLY PROCEED IN COMPLIANCE WITH A NATIONAL POLICY FRAMEWORK” – MINISTER RABBITTE

Minister deplores misinformation and misrepresentation of export project at Irish Wind Energy Association Conference

Galway,3 October 2013

Minister Rabbitte addressed the Irish Wind Energy Association Autumn Conference today outlining that projects of a significant scale and specifically for export can only proceed in compliance with a national policy framework. The Minister deplored the misinformation and misrepresentation of the export project in the public domain noting:

“I am aware, and so should this conference be aware, that there are concerns in parts of the midlands about the shape of the wind export project. Some of these concerns have been needlessly stoked by unthinking communication by some developers. Citizens and community groups are entitled to have their concerns properly addressed. It is undoubtedly the case that misinformation abounds. However, being dismissive of the questioners is not the way to deal with wrong information.”

The Minster addressed a number of gross distortions and mischievous exaggerations currently in the public domain. He said “It is not true that there won’t be a Strategic Environmental Assessment (SEA). It is not true that the skies over the midlands will be blighted by wind turbines. It is not true that communities will be excluded from inputting into the process. It is not true that we will be giving away a valuable indigenous resource. It is not true that we will be exporting green energy at the expense of meeting our own mandatory domestic targets. It is not true that there are no jobs for local people in developing an export sector in green energy. Nor is it right to exaggerate the number of jobs that will be created although none of us can forecast precisely the exciting potential.”

The Minister reinforced that he was putting in place a national renewable energy export policy and planning framework, which will guide An Bord Pleanála when considering any proposals of a significant scale for wind energy export projects. The proposed large–scale wind farms intending to export must await the putting in place of this framework which will be underpinned by a Strategic Environmental Assessment.

Transparency of this process is crucial over the next 12 months and the Minister announced that a special section on renewable exports on his Department’s website and the initial phase of public and stakeholder consultation on the framework would go live in the next few weeks.

Commenting on progress with domestic development of wind energy, Minister Pat Rabbitte noted that a recent survey of Irish Wind Energy Association member companies shows that some 3,400 people are in full time employment in this sector. The Minister confirmed that the changes to the REFIT schemes, announced by him at the IWEA conference in March of this year, have now been brought into effect. These changes, introduced in response to the need for policy certainty by developers, and the imperative of meeting Ireland’s 2020 renewable electricity target, include the extension – following the approval of the European Commission – of the backstop date for REFIT 1 to end 2027, and allowing REFIT 2 to remain open for applications until end 2015, while requiring such projects are connected end December 2017. In follow up to this approximately 3,000MW of wind generators have accepted their Gate 3 offers so far. EirGrid and ESB Networks have indicated that sufficient wind farms have accepted offers to connect to the grid to facilitate meeting the target of 40 per cent of electricity from renewable sources by 2020.

Old diesel · 07-10-2013 11:00pm

Ive just figured out the way to get anywhere in Ireland - figure out a way to turn oneself into a wind turbine :mad:.

You will then be more important then any person in Ireland :mad::mad::mad:.

Government needs to be held to account imo - how does it see rural Ireland going into the future - a place where vibrant communities can exist - or a dump for wind turbines.

Cant wait for Pat Rabbite to leave office - can't happen fast enough imo.

And as for drawing up a plan for An Bord Pleanala (bad spelling) - that's a resigning matter for me if he manages to succeed in that - An Bord Pleanala should be drawing up their own guidelines and research as they are supposed to be independent (or did I dream that one).

Actually its not the Wind turbines themselves that upset me - but its the mindset of the people don't matter that gets my back up.

Public health is important - and while its possible the claims from anti wind turbine type people might be overstated/exaggerated - nonetheless the people should be entitled to know that their health will be safeguarded through rules and regulations.

And that if things go wrong - the issues will be addressed properly - with a view to keeping the community in place - even if that means taking down some wind turbines if genuine issues araise.

Can't blame people for being annoyed when you feel your community is under threat - and your less important as a person simply because of where you live - than a wind turbine.

Old diesel · 07-10-2013 11:09pm

Apologies for the rant

Thing is i don't mind a certain amount of Wind Turbines once they are sited in a manner that allows them to function without negative impact on the communities in which they are located.

Its more the way in which they are rushed in without the proper caution and planning. Yes we need to rethink our energy - but we also should be looking to keep communities going well - and putting in place standards and rules to ensure as best as possible that communities are safeguarded should things go wrong.

Macha · 08-10-2013 7:36am

Old diesel wrote: »

Apologies for the rant

Thing is i don't mind a certain amount of Wind Turbines once they are sited in a manner that allows them to function without negative impact on the communities in which they are located.

Its more the way in which they are rushed in without the proper caution and planning. Yes we need to rethink our energy - but we also should be looking to keep communities going well - and putting in place standards and rules to ensure as best as possible that communities are safeguarded should things go wrong.

More than that, we need to make it easy for communities, either through individuals or cooperatives, to invest in their own renewable energy projects. In Germany, individuals and farmers own more than 50% of the installed renewable energy capacity. That's the model we should be aiming for.

Old diesel · 08-10-2013 8:51am

Macha wrote: »

More than that, we need to make it easy for communities, either through individuals or cooperatives, to invest in their own renewable energy projects. In Germany, individuals and farmers own more than 50% of the installed renewable energy capacity. That's the model we should be aiming for.

Ironically I was thinking along these lines this morning

, if a community invests in their own wind energy projects and own the turbines etc - then the income from the wind energy would come directly back to the local community.

One still needs to have very good planning and put considerable thought into how a wind farm can live happily in a community that is able to continue to thrive and live okay with wind turbines in the local area.

One thing I was wondering - if these really aren't such a bad thing to have near where people live - why not put them near towns or near factories/industrial area type locations.

We do need to be clear about what the implications are for local communities - its better to have as clear an understanding as possible before putting up wind farms.

Green&Red · 08-10-2013 9:31am

Macha wrote: »

More than that, we need to make it easy for communities, either through individuals or cooperatives, to invest in their own renewable energy projects. In Germany, individuals and farmers own more than 50% of the installed renewable energy capacity. That's the model we should be aiming for.

So public health depends on who owns the turbine?
They're less ugly if you own it? A bit like a child?

Green&Red · 08-10-2013 9:35am

Old diesel wrote: »

And as for drawing up a plan for An Bord Pleanala (bad spelling) - that's a resigning matter for me if he manages to succeed in that - An Bord Pleanala should be drawing up their own guidelines and research as they are supposed to be independent (or did I dream that one).

You kind of did dream that one, these projects would fall under strategic infrastructure, thats why they would go before ABP. Its ABPs place to ensure that they meet "the objectives in the National Spatial Strategy " under the Planning and Development (Strategic Infrastructure) Act 2006.

In short its ABPs place to look at strategic infrastructure and decide whether it meets Government policy and objectives, meets environmental standards and adheres to European regulations.

ABP dont draw up guidelines (ever), they are an independent body to follow guidelines and policy

Macha · 08-10-2013 10:37am

Old diesel wrote: »

Ironically I was thinking along these lines this morning , if a community invests in their own wind energy projects and own the turbines etc - then the income from the wind energy would come directly back to the local community.

One still needs to have very good planning and put considerable thought into how a wind farm can live happily in a community that is able to continue to thrive and live okay with wind turbines in the local area.

One thing I was wondering - if these really aren't such a bad thing to have near where people live - why not put them near towns or near factories/industrial area type locations.

We do need to be clear about what the implications are for local communities - its better to have as clear an understanding as possible before putting up wind farms.

Agree with all of that. I think the model of planning in Ireland is not inclusive enough and communities aren't engaged in the process when there are still key decisions to be made. Instead, the decisions are made and then explained to them afterwards - not great for goodwill towards these projects.

Green&Red wrote: »

So public health depends on who owns the turbine?
They're less ugly if you own it? A bit like a child?

Let's be clear: objections to wind turbines and other forms of renewable energy on every grounds are lower in those countries/regions where individuals and cooperatives are more involved and benefit more.

Green&Red · 08-10-2013 10:45am

Macha wrote: »

Let's be clear: objections to wind turbines and other forms of renewable energy on every grounds are lower in those countries/regions where individuals and cooperatives are more involved and benefit more.

I just dont think the claims, from the reasonable (them being an eye sore) to the ridiculous (them causing cancer), can be anymore or less because you have a stake in something

Macha · 08-10-2013 10:56am

Green&Red wrote: »

I just dont think the claims, from the reasonable (them being an eye sore) to the ridiculous (them causing cancer), can be anymore or less because you have a stake in something

That's because you assume the objections are purely to do with the facts about the wind project, not to do with anger or resentment over projects over which individuals feel that they will suffer and will not receive any great benefit from.

Old diesel · 08-10-2013 11:03am

Green&Red wrote: »

I just dont think the claims, from the reasonable (them being an eye sore) to the ridiculous (them causing cancer), can be anymore or less because you have a stake in something

Your right - but the difference with a community project is that a community should have their homework done in advance - and its the community that have decided themselves to put up their wind turbines.

The other thing about a community led wind turbine project - is that if the community owns the turbines - and if after a number of years they aren't happy with issues on the turbines - then if they own the actual turbines they can take steps to address issues.

Way it is now - its like - you don't like them - tough luck.

Im open to the idea of wind turbines - but would like to see more thought about and answers to concerns that people have on them.

One thing id like to get more understanding is the question on how other countries like Denmark get along with wind turbines - what procedures and guidelines they have in place.

And are there any ongoing issues in other countries with their wind turbines - we could then see the lessons to be learned - and implement those lessons rather then go off and make mistakes that have already been made elsewhere - and thus are avoidable.

My main concern here is keeping communities alive and thriving - and keep them nice places to live and work in.

If we can still do that when the wind turbines are in place - then I am happy to consider having them.

However if wind turbines cause issues for the community and put the future of a community in danger - and turn a place that was previously nice to live in - into a place that's no longer as nice - then I would be keen to look at other options more - and focus on putting people living in communities ahead of wind turbines.

My thinking is that we should develop the wind turbine technology more - so that noise and infrasound levels are reduced - and get more power from a turbine - even with reduced noise and infrasound levels.

With the aim to achieve a turbine design that reduces the noise and infrasound level - but its more powerful - so we need less of them - but those that are there are actually quieter.

Green&Red · 08-10-2013 11:05am

Macha wrote: »

That's because you assume the objections are purely to do with the facts about the wind project, not to do with anger or resentment over projects over which individuals feel that they will suffer and will not receive any great benefit from.

I guess thats where community benefits schemes come in?

Capt'n Midnight · 08-10-2013 11:11am

Old diesel wrote: »

One thing I was wondering - if these really aren't such a bad thing to have near where people live - why not put them near towns or near factories/industrial area type locations.

That's just nimbyism.

and it's usually best to put them where the wind is - mountains / coast / flat open countryside
and land is usually a lot cheaper in the countryside
and less people are affected - Co. Dublin is one of the smallest in the country but has a larger population than 16 other counties put together, and there is also the problem of finding an area that is 500m from the nearest house

and besides people in urban areas already had to put up with lots of noise, buildings blocking their view, insane amount of road building and all manner of stuff during the boom.

I'd be interested to know the locals compare to the blow-ins when it comes to opposition to wind turbines

Macha · 08-10-2013 11:13am

Green&Red wrote: »

I guess thats where community benefits schemes come in?

Yeah, and there are models that work, such as in Denmark where any wind project must offer (ie sell at market price) 20% of its shares to local residents. Actually, this model is often oversubscribed and people will actually move to certain areas to take up the offer. But it's not the same as having your village's own wind turbine, your own smart energy system with storage, solar panels and some sort of net metering.

It's not just that it's a different type of involvement, it is also a much better way to align the interests of the community with the project. With the Irish 'compensation model', your aim is to get as much compensation out of the developer as possible to 'compensate' for your perceived/real loss. And so your locked into a confrontational relationship where the wind project/developer is the enemy.

With other models, your benefit comes when the project succeeds and so you're more likely to become an ally of the project, rather than an opponent/critic.

Old diesel · 08-10-2013 11:14am

Green&Red wrote: »

I guess thats where community benefits schemes come in?

Is this the schemes where the wind turbine developers try to keep communities a little happier by giving money to local projects.

These don't float my boat to be honest - and reinforce to my mind the idea that rural communities "god love them" are a hopeless cause and this is just a short term measure to keep everyone sweet - as the community is going nowhere.

Mind you that's probably me being very very cynical

:D

Old diesel · 08-10-2013 11:20am

Macha wrote: »

Yeah, and there are models that work, such as in Denmark where any wind project must offer (ie sell at market price) 20% of its shares to local residents. Actually, this model is often oversubscribed and people will actually move to certain areas to take up the offer. But it's not the same as having your village's own wind turbine, your own smart energy system with storage, solar panels and some sort of net metering.

It's not just that it's a different type of involvement, it is also a much better way to align the interests of the community with the project. With the Irish 'compensation model', your aim is to get as much compensation out of the developer as possible to 'compensate' for your perceived/real loss. And so your locked into a confrontational relationship where the wind project/developer is the enemy.

With other models, your benefit comes when the project succeeds and so you're more likely to become an ally of the project, rather than an opponent/critic.

Ah okay - we were both typing at the same time - feel free to ignore my first post after yours.

Very interesting points been made - I love the idea that people in Denmark actually move to areas where wind projects are on the go - to avail of what they see as the benefits of being in an area with wind energy projects - ie shares in wind energy that they see as being good for them.

Incidentally - what way does Danish rural living work - does everyone live in villages - or is it a bit like Ireland - where people live in one off houses dotted around the country side.

Wind farm for the Midlands

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