Research A Soldier

arnhem44 · 01-11-2010 10:03pm

Hi RDF,I've often used the NA abbreviations section and found it most useful.I followed up then with a book by Howard Williamson called A Dictionary Of Great War Abbreviations which I believe the NA sources these abbreviations from which is only a small amount of what is actually known.The book can still be found and varies widely in price,here is a selection for anyone interested and a book that I would highly recommend. http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?ac=sl&st=sl&qi=.jP7MlNTiMa1wQ6rQMKjslS3aDU_4082108418_1:2:163&bq=author%3Dhoward%2520williamson%26title%3Ddictionary%2520of%2520great%2520war%2520abbreviations

Murrayer22 · 03-11-2010 12:55pm

Hi all,
Not sure if you can help me,
Ive recently started to research a Greatuncle of mine named Constantine Murray from Dublin. He was 14 when he signed up with the British Army (told them he was 17). he was killed while fighting in France around 1915/1917. An old family relative told me his full name is enscribed on a memorial somewhere outside Paris. Ive checked all the websites and cant find his name anywhere. Not sure what Batallion or anything he was in, but my dad thinks it was the Irish Riflers ??? Would be really gratefull for any help, as my dad has inherited that great name Constantine and really wants to know more about his uncle.

Thank You

Ponster · 03-11-2010 1:02pm

This him ?

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=723390

Name: MURRAY, CONSTANTINE
Initials: C
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Rifleman
Regiment/Service: Royal Irish Rifles
Unit Text: 2nd Bn.
Date of Death: 15/09/1914
Service No: 9749
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Memorial: LA FERTE-SOUS-JOUARRE MEMORIAL

He is entitled to all 3 'standard' WWI medals as his medal card is available also (as as his much destroyed service records).

You say he was 14 when he signed up but I'm afraid that may just be a family story as he joined the army in 1911. And I doubt he would have gotten away with it pre-war when there would have been more attention paid to ages and such? Who knows though? When he signed up in 1911 he told them that he was born in 1893.

Also inclosed are several letters from his father (Robert Murry) who was informed that his son was wounded but nothing more from the army as to his condition for almost a year afterwards. There seems to be some confusion as to when/where he died and it seems that the army decided that he was in fact dead rather than they being 100% sure of the facts.

Murrayer22 · 03-11-2010 1:13pm

Thats him Ponster
Thank you so much. Cant believe you found that so quickly,
Ive been searching for ages.

Thanks Again

Murrayer22 · 03-11-2010 1:17pm

Ponster,
how do I go about checking to see if anyone ever received his medals ??
Where can i see his medal card and Service records???

Cant believe there are letters from his Dad aswell.
Can I get these or even a copy of them ??
Wow, I cant believe you have been able to tell me all that in less than an hour.
Actually still in shock.
Thank you so much for your help

Happy Monday · 03-11-2010 2:38pm

Murrayer22 wrote: »

Ponster,
how do I go about checking to see if anyone ever received his medals ??
Where can i see his medal card and Service records???

Check these out - the Service record was probably damaged in the Blitz fires of 1940 at Kew.

Murrayer22 · 03-11-2010 3:10pm

Happy Monday wrote: »

Check these out - the Service record was probably damaged in the Blitz fires of 1940 at Kew.

Hey Happy Monday,
It doesnt give any information on those to say if the medals were ever received by anyone on behalf of Constantine. How can I check this out.
Ponster also mentioned letters from his dad to Constantine. Could I get a copy of these from anyone. (the origninal letters would be even better)
Would be grateful if you can guide me in the right direction.

Thanks a lot for your help

Murrayer22 · 03-11-2010 3:12pm

Ponster wrote: »

This him ?

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=723390

Name: MURRAY, CONSTANTINE
Initials: C
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Rifleman
Regiment/Service: Royal Irish Rifles
Unit Text: 2nd Bn.
Date of Death: 15/09/1914
Service No: 9749
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Memorial: LA FERTE-SOUS-JOUARRE MEMORIAL

He is entitled to all 3 'standard' WWI medals as his medal card is available also (as as his much destroyed service records).

You say he was 14 when he signed up but I'm afraid that may just be a family story as he joined the army in 1911. And I doubt he would have gotten away with it pre-war when there would have been more attention paid to ages and such? Who knows though? When he signed up in 1911 he told them that he was born in 1893.

Also inclosed are several letters from his father (Robert Murry) who was informed that his son was wounded but nothing more from the army as to his condition for almost a year afterwards. There seems to be some confusion as to when/where he died and it seems that the army decided that he was in fact dead rather than they being 100% sure of the facts.

Thanks for all your help Ponster. Just wondering if you could let me kno where I can see a copy of those letters or if anyone has ever collected Constatines Medals.

Ponster · 03-11-2010 4:00pm

Murrayer22 wrote: »

Thanks for all your help Ponster. Just wondering if you could let me kno where I can see a copy of those letters or if anyone has ever collected Constatines Medals.

I'll send you a Private Message later concerning the letters and such.

It's too late to reclaim the medals now I believe though can always get them made by a third-party company with his reg number, etc...
Some service records have a record if medals have been claimed but I didn't see this in CMs file.

arnhem44 · 03-11-2010 7:58pm

A Battle of Mon's Casualty,looking at his medal index card there shows that he was also awarded a clasp to his 1914 Star,the 1914 Star being a lot more desirable than the 1914-15 Star.Here is the following action that most likely caused his death on the 15th of September 1914

September 15th was a most unlucky day for the Battalion. On Colonel Bird's arrival at daybreak in the front line, his second-in-command, Major Spedding, pointed out to him German trenches in a little hollow 700 yards to their front, and told him that he had ordered "D" Company twenty minutes before to advance to the edge of the wood, about halfway between them, and hold it.
The commanding officer saw no harm in this, but felt a little nervous lest the company, now lost to sight in the trees, should become involved in a premature attack. On the other hand, as "D" Company had not come into action, it was possible the Germans had retired. He accordingly ordered "A" Company to move forward with all possible caution on its right to support it in case of need.
Almost immediately, to his horror, "A" Company began to attack, advancing by rushes upon the enemy trenches, meeting heavy machine-gun fire. What had happened was that the company commander had seen "D" Company on his left advance upon the German trench, and had conceived it to be his duty also to attack to support it. "D" Company did actually capture a section of the German trench, but was driven out by a prompt counter-attack, and the original line was taken up.
In this abortive action 2nd-Lieutenants Swaine and Magennis were killed, Captains Bowen-Colthurst, Durant, and Lieutenants Peebles and Varwell wounded. The total casualties were not far short of 150, chiefly wounded. The ugly day, with ceaseless wet adding to other miseries, ended in alarms, and a rattle of musketry along the front caused by the reports of German attacks which were probably no more than the movements of patrols. It had been disappointing.

His name is also listed on this site as a casaulty
http://royalirishrifles.webs.com/2rir1914.htm

johnny_doyle · 03-11-2010 8:07pm

census record for 1911 puts his age as 18 and job as bootmaker which ties in with the service record

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Wood_Quay/Werburgh_Street/68703/

The record for him on Findagrave has a photo of his memorial inscription

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=murray&GSfn=constantine&GSbyrel=in&GSdy=1914&GSdyrel=in&GSob=n&GRid=56241436&df=all&

johnny_doyle · 03-11-2010 8:11pm

Brendan, you just beat me to the RIR link.

Bowen-Colhurst being the chap from the Easter Rising and the shooting of Sheehy Skeffington.

Murrayer22 · 04-11-2010 10:23am

Thank you all so much for all your help.
Can't believe all the things I found out about my Great Uncle yesterday.

Hopefully I will have luck in getting the letters sent between Constantine and his Dad Robert, and to see if his medals were ever claimed.

Thanks again
Lydia

arnhem44 · 04-11-2010 11:24am

Hi Lydia,it's great that there was so much to be found on your relative.A casualty is most certainly easier to find info on rather than a survivor.In relation to his medals,normally on the medal index card (that has been posted up previously) shows if the medals were returned,all medals would of been posted out to the recipient or there next of kin bar Officers who had to apply for there medals.The medal index card doesn't show that the medals were returned so it's most likely some member(maybe distant member) of your family had them,they may have been sold,divided up or simply lost over time or are still in the families possession,a bit of detective work may turn up something.Also on the medal index card on the right hand side lists the page numbers and what medal rolls they appear on in the records,these can be viewed but not online however members on another forum may have these photographed and may be possible to view also,they may not tell much but it's just another piece to add to your research.

arnhem44 · 04-11-2010 5:18pm

I forgot to mention that Constantine Murray's family would of also received a four inch bronze memorial plaque with his name on it and also a memorial scroll,these were issued to the next of kin of all casualties.Same as below

johnny_doyle · 04-11-2010 7:35pm

his service record notes he was in A Company. His assessment in 1913 was signed by Capt J C Bowen-Colthurst who described Rifleman Murray as a good steady reliable man.

The father, Robert Murray, signed a receipt for the 1914 Star in July 1919.

Happy Monday · 04-11-2010 8:04pm

johnny_doyle wrote: »

his service record notes he was in A Company. His assessment in 1913 was signed by Capt J C Bowen-Colthurst who described Rifleman Murray as a good steady reliable man.

The father, Robert Murray, signed a receipt for the 1914 Star in July 1919.

Johnny - Can you let me know where can this kind of information be found on a deceased solider please?

johnny_doyle · 04-11-2010 8:11pm

Happy Monday wrote: »

Johnny - Can you let me know where can this kind of information be found on a deceased solider please?

in this case from his service record on Ancestry. Most service records were destroyed during WW2 so they're not always available. Guards regiments are the exception; stored in filing cabinets and have to be requested.

Some pension records are on Ancestry too.

Happy Monday · 04-11-2010 8:15pm

johnny_doyle wrote: »

in this case from his service record on Ancestry. Most service records were destroyed during WW2 so they're not always available. Guards regiments are the exception; stored in filing cabinets and have to be requested.

Some pension records are on Ancestry too.

Cheers Johnny just wanted to make sure that's where you were going.
Yes - my own granduncle's record was destroyed in 1940. That is a shame as there would have been so much information there we can't access in any other way.

johnny_doyle · 04-11-2010 8:28pm

arnhem44 wrote: »

I forgot to mention that Constantine Murray's family would of also received a four inch bronze memorial plaque with his name on it and also a memorial scroll,these were issued to the next of kin of all casualties.Same as below

that's a nice collection. The object at the top right is a match box holder. The blue stripes are overseas service stripes, one per year, and would be worn on the right sleeve of a service jacket near the wrist/forearm.

The Death Penny (top left item) of my Gt Grandfather was what got me interested in WW1 history.

Murrayer22 · 12-11-2010 7:06pm

arnhem44 wrote: »

I forgot to mention that Constantine Murray's family would of also received a four inch bronze memorial plaque with his name on it and also a memorial scroll,these were issued to the next of kin of all casualties.Same as below

Wow, thanks for that. just found all the info on Constantines Medals and his family letters to the Army looking for information regarding him when he went missing in action. Its amazing what u can find out on here. Didnt expect to find out so much. My dad is shocked that we could find out. He's not technicaly minded at all so he's facinated by it all. Thank you so much for all your help and that picture of all the medals is great.

Thanks again
Lydia

Eve222 · 26-11-2010 10:05pm

I would like to find out how to find more info on my granduncle who was KIA in WW1. This is what I have found so far:
Private Denis McCarthy Service No: 25525 7th South Irish Horse Bn.
Later 49th Infantry Brigade in the 16th Irish Division. Royal Irish Regiment
Born July 1892. KIA 30/11/1917
Parents Michael and Margaret McCarthy, Tankardstown, Kilmallock, Co Limerick
British War and Victory Medal
Joined up in Dublin
Buried in Croisilles British Cemetery

He was killed while relieving 2nd Battalion the Royal Dublin Fusiliers. Five other soldiers were killed also and a Captain GC Colville.

They had left the Belfast Camp. Does anyone know where that would have been? Is it possible to find out how he died?

Thanks, Eve

johnny_doyle · 27-11-2010 1:38am

his medal card shows he was no 2039 while in the South Irish Horse and then 25525 when he went to the Royal Irish Regt.

Ireland's Memorial Records for WW1 casualties repearts what you already have. Ditto Soldiers Died in the Great War (SDGW)

Name:Denis Mccarthy
Birth Place:Tankardstown, Co. Limerick
Death Date:30 Nov 1917
Death Location:France & Flanders
Enlistment Location Dublin
Rank Private
Regiment:Royal Irish Regiment
Battalion:7th Battalion
Number:25525
Type of Casualty:Killed in action
Theatre of War:Western European Theatre
Comments:Formerly 2039, S. Ir. Horse

Echoed on the list of SIH dead

http://www.southirishhorse.com/documents/sih_dead.htm

Can't find much else about him unfortunately.

Belfast Camp appears to be at Ervillers in France

http://www.southirishhorse.com/documents/7sih_riregt_war_diaries_1.htm

Eve222 · 27-11-2010 2:35am

Thank you very much Johnny. Every piece of information is good to have. A year ago I knew nothing at all about this man, I only found out about him in a local history book! I was amazed and sad that he had been forgotten. He deserves to be remembered. Again thank you.

johnny_doyle · 27-11-2010 9:18am

seems a disappointingly small amout of info for a chap who goes off to do his bit.

Can't quite make out from the snippets online as to when the SIH became the 7th Royal Irish Regiment but Denis appears to have started his war as a cavalryman and ended as an infantryman

http://www.southirishhorse.com/documents/sih_war_diaries_2.htm

There is an SIH memorial in St Patrick's

http://www.irishwarmemorials.ie/html/showMemorial.php?show=407

Couldn't find a reference to Denis McCarthy on the list of people on the above site.

Is it you who left a comment on his Findagrave entry?

Eve222 · 27-11-2010 12:58pm

Yes Johnny, that was me.

Eve222 · 27-11-2010 5:53pm

I was looking up Ervillers on the net. It looks like soldiers were buried not far from where they died. I wonder where the bodies were until these grave yards were put in place.

93 years ago on Tue Denis died. It seems along time ago, but since I found out about Denis he and his brothers and sisters, his parents, (my great grandparents) have come alive for me. Denis had ten brothers and sisters, one died as a child. A sister went to the States, another moved to Dublin. His brother Martin, my grandfather stayed in the same place all his life. Another brother James was arrest in the Civil war, and the eldest brother Robert born in 1882 was home in the 1901 census, but I couldn't find him anywhere in Ireland in 1911 so he is a mystery. Denis' mother died in 1924, I can't imagine what she suffered. The family lived near Bruree and I read there was fierce fighting right outside her door during the civil war.

katyt · 08-01-2011 6:08pm

My Mother's father died when she was young, and she did not know that he had a brother who died in the Crimea. We have just discovered my great Uncle, and I would welcome any further information anyone can contribute. What I know is that he was buried in Twelve Tree Copse cemetery and he was "Serjeant J Carney, 7830, 1st Batallion, Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, died 27 December 1915" He was awarded the Cross of the Order of Saint George.

Ponster · 08-01-2011 9:24pm

I guess you already have the CWGC info based on what you have posted.

His name was James Carney, born in Enniskillen and died in Gallipoli.

I'll see what I can dig up.

katyt · 09-01-2011 12:34pm

Thanks, any info would be most helpful.
James may have joined up with his younger brother, my grandfather Francis Carney. Frank Carney was born in 1896 and we know that he was also in the army. The story we have is that Frank was gassed with mustard gas and was discharged, but we have no record of this.
We know he became a TD, but was always sickly after this and died in October 1932.
I don't have any army records for either of the brothers, and any help would be great.

johnny_doyle · 09-01-2011 6:32pm

the case of Francis Carney was discussed in Parliament

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1916/dec/20/naval-and-military-pensions-and-grants

his medal card on Ancestry shows enlisted 19/8/1914; discharged 2/12/1915.

Ponster · 09-01-2011 6:37pm

There are records available for a Francis Carney from Enniskillen, born ~1895 whose father was Edward Carney, 18 Abbey street, Enniskillen.

Could that be him ?

p.s. Discharged as was physically unfit for duty.

katyt · 09-01-2011 6:51pm

OMG that's completely new information, thank you. I reckon he never did get that pension. His wife died in 1941 leaving the six children as orphans, and penniless.

katyt · 09-01-2011 6:58pm

Yes, that's him. Any luck with James? I wonder did they join up at the same time?
The discharge date of 2/12/1915 suggests that he also was in Galipoli. When looking up James, I found the following:
Where the 1st Battalion Inniskilling Fusiliers were during the war –
August 1914 : in Trimulgherrey, India. Returned to UK and landed at Avonmouth on 10 January 1915.
10 January 1915 : attached to 87th Brigade in 29th Division. Moved to Rugby.
Marchg 1915 : sailed, going via Egypt and landed at Cape Helles, Gallipoli, on 25 April 1915.
January 1916 : evacuated from Gallipoli to Egypt.
18 March 1916 : landed at Marseilles for serice in France.
5 February 1918 : transferred to 109th Brigade in 36th (Ulster) Division.

johnny_doyle · 09-01-2011 7:00pm

the service record that Ponster found matches the medal card. His number was 11122 rather than the 1122 mentioned in Parliament.

The London Gazette has the award for James and the Cross of St George

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/29275/supplements/8506/page.pdf

katyt · 09-01-2011 7:15pm

johnny_doyle wrote: »

the service record that Ponster found matches the medal card. His number was 11122 rather than the 1122 mentioned in Parliament.

The London Gazette has the award for James and the Cross of St George

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/29275/supplements/8506/page.pdf

Just to clarify, when you say 'medal card' - is that just Frank's service record, or did he too get a medal?

arnhem44 · 09-01-2011 7:47pm

All soldiers who served in a theatre of war between the qualifying date were entitled to medals,the MIC or Medal Index Card which is the meaning shows what medals a soldier was entitled to and what page the medals appeared on the medal rolls,it also shows which regiment or regiments a soldier served with with his relevant service numbers to those regiments and sometimes will show the date he actually entered that theatre of war he was destined for and on a very slim chance it also may show the address where the next of kin was living.His service record is separate to this.This might help http://www.1914-1918.net/grandad/grandad.htm

katyt · 09-01-2011 8:06pm

arnhem44 wrote: »

All soldiers who served in a theatre of war between the qualifying date were entitled to medals,the MIC or Medal Index Card which is the meaning shows what medals a soldier was entitled to...

Thank you for this, it is really helpful.

johnny_doyle · 09-01-2011 8:12pm

katyt wrote: »

Just to clarify, when you say 'medal card' - is that just Frank's service record, or did he too get a medal?

more info about the WW1 campaign medals and medal index cards can be found at :

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/medals.asp

Frank's medal index card is the Design 3 type.

Because he didn't serve overseas he wasn't entitled to any of the campaign medals but looks like he might have had a Silver War Badge issued.

arnhem44 · 09-01-2011 8:27pm

johnny_doyle wrote: »

more info about the WW1 campaign medals and medal index cards can be found at :

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/medals.asp

Frank's medal index card is the Design 3 type.

Because he didn't serve overseas he wasn't entitled to any of the campaign medals but looks like he might have had a Silver War Badge issued.

does it give his SWB number?

katyt · 09-01-2011 8:35pm

I have downloaded the medal card - it is a great find, thank you. The only number appears to be his own number. There are some details under cause of discharge, but it is difficult to read other than the word 'sickness'.

There is another section 'Action Taken' and on this is written B/79.

katyt · 09-01-2011 8:46pm

Would it be normal at that time for someone who was in the army for just one year, and did not serve abroad, to become a Sergeant?

arnhem44 · 09-01-2011 9:40pm

In my opinion I would think that making Sergeant in his first year and having not served overseas wouldn't be impossible I suppose,he may of been well disciplined with good leadership qualities,came from a good family background for instance,things were very different back then.Judging by his age in all likelihood he would of had no previous Military service other than his time during the war.Medal cards are confusing at the best of times and things like B/79 refer to Kings regulations,each section refers to some regulation or other.

johnny_doyle · 10-01-2011 12:24am

katyt wrote: »

Would it be normal at that time for someone who was in the army for just one year, and did not serve abroad, to become a Sergeant?

his rise was fast :

Enlisted, Private 19/8/1914 5th Battn
L/Cpl 21/9/1914
Cpl 13/10/1914
A/Sgt 14/12/1914
Sgt confirmed 14/12/1914
moved to 4th Battn 24/6/1915

At a time when the army was expanding rapidly and looking for administration/leadership skills there must have been something about him.

katyt · 10-01-2011 9:10am

Thank you for that johnny_doyle - great information. My mother will be thrilled to get this information on her father.
Did you get anywhere with the brother James Carney, 7830, who died in Galipoli on 27/12/1915.

johnny_doyle · 10-01-2011 9:19pm

katyt wrote: »

Thank you for that johnny_doyle - great information. My mother will be thrilled to get this information on her father.
Did you get anywhere with the brother James Carney, 7830, who died in Galipoli on 27/12/1915.

I'm not seeing anything else on James at the moment.

Do you know if his medals are still in the family?

katyt · 10-01-2011 9:31pm

johnny_doyle wrote: »

I'm not seeing anything else on James at the moment.

Do you know if his medals are still in the family?

No, we did not know poor James existed until a few months ago. The brother, Frank my grandfather, died when my mother was a child. She had never heard of a brother James.
From the great Hansard reference you gave earlier, James was in the African campaign. That must have been the 2nd Boer War, where the Iniskillings distinguished themselves. That means he must have joined up in or before 1899.
The Hansard says:

No. 7830, Sergeant J. Carney, Royal Inniskillings, who contributed to the support of the home, was killed in Callipoli, having served through the African campaign and been dangerously wounded in France when he won the Russian Cross of St. George.

johnny_doyle · 11-01-2011 12:42am

on the Enniskillen War Memorial there is a Sgt J Carney Jun and a Sgt J Carney Sen.

Ireland's Memorial Records has a second Enniskillen born James Carney from the Inniskillings who died in 1918 (though his CWGC and Medal Card say Corporal rather than Sgt)

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=273736

Any relation?

katyt · 11-01-2011 10:55am

johnny_doyle wrote: »

on the Enniskillen War Memorial there is a Sgt J Carney Jun and a Sgt J Carney Sen.

Ireland's Memorial Records has a second Enniskillen born James Carney from the Inniskillings who died in 1918 (though his CWGC and Medal Card say Corporal rather than Sgt)

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=273736

Any relation?

No, I don't think so, but we know very little about that side of the family.

johnny_doyle · 11-01-2011 11:26pm

there are a couple of references to Frank in this document

https://dspace.stir.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/1893/1517/1/robert%20john%20lynch-24072009.pdf

It's searchable but doesn't jump to the right page for me. Frank gets mentioned on page 93 (as printed on the page) as being an IRB man and Commandant of South Fermanagh Brigade then 1st Northern Division.

NLI has a letter from Frank in the Florence O'Donoghue collection :

http://www.nli.ie/pdfs/mss%20lists/A18_%20FlorODonoghue.pdf

Have you managed to find the family on the 1911 census? or James on the 1901 census?