M7 - Naas/Newbridge Bypass Upgrade [Junction 9a now open]

17-08-2015 5:08pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Is that for work he travels to Dublin once a week ?

So, I travel to Cork/Limerick/Galway/Belfast sometimes and pay tolls ? doesn't bother me, I rather that than have to travel through every tiny village sitting in traffic for hours.

Deedsie wrote: »

Plenty of people from Cork travel for work in Dublin. Not Daily but I work with a guy who is in our office at least once a week. Drives to the red cow park and ride, Luas to abbey street and walks from there.

Deedsie wrote: »

no he vacattions in our office.... Of course he travels up for work. You are happy to pay a toll and sit in traffic, good for you. I am just advocating new tolls to areas that for some strange reason the government decided to not toll. (The wealthiest part of the country). There is no justification for another toll on the M7 though. The road is already overly tolled if travelling from the Cork, Clare/Limerick if you have to go under the tunnel on the N20.

No need to be a smart ass, he could be travelling for business or he's commuting, either way why should it matter if he chooses to have work so far away ?

If he can work from home most of the time then good for him.

Victor · 17-08-2015 6:51pm

Deedsie wrote: »

See you next Tuesday.

On-topic, constructive posts only please.

Moderator

Carawaystick · 17-08-2015 11:49pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Who's commuting by car from Cork to Dublin ?

A toll on the M9 around Naas would help fund a rail upgrade along this route , but I would only accept this if there was a proper rail network with frequent train times. A toll would then probably convince people to take the train.

How many people using the N7 are going to places served by the train on the n7?
How much of an upgrade to rail would be needed to get the train to Dublin city centre? or to Blanch or Sandyford?

The whole point about a toll reducing traffic, does't stack up, when traffic backs up at the Tolka on the M50 Southbound just as the tolled section begins.

18-08-2015 9:16am

Carawaystick wrote: »

How many people using the N7 are going to places served by the train on the n7?
How much of an upgrade to rail would be needed to get the train to Dublin city centre? or to Blanch or Sandyford?

No Idea, this is what needs to be found out so a proper public infrastructure can be planned.

Carawaystick wrote: »

The whole point about a toll reducing traffic, does't stack up, when traffic backs up at the Tolka on the M50 Southbound just as the tolled section begins.

A toll won't reduce traffic unless there are alternatives, which there isn't so in that case it could be used to pay for the upgrade because currently we're told the money isn't there or unlikely to be for years.

Bray Head · 19-08-2015 8:28am

Tolls should be considered as an aid to combat congestion. It is essential that they vary by time of day/week so you are tolling people less (or not at all) who choose to use the road when it is empty at 2am. The port tunnel is a very good example of this.

This is how Ryanair keep their planes reasonably full at all times, by adjusting pricing to match demand.

The current narrative in Ireland is that tolls are needed to pay for the sunk cost of building the road is silly and not very good economics. Ireland is very well placed to introduce barrier-free tolls - a very small % of cars on the road are non-Irish and a considerable share of the population already has a toll tag due to the M50.

People who commute at peak times will of course complain at the introduction of tolls. But in the long run no one has the same job or house forever. People adjust behaviour to the prices they face. Ireland's road network is about to get very congested again if growth continues and we need organisational solutions as much as engineering ones.

Carawaystick · 19-08-2015 11:53am

Deleted User wrote: »

No Idea, this is what needs to be found out so a proper public infrastructure can be planned.

If only there was a nationwide periodic survey of where people live, where they work and how they travel to work done once in a while... :rolleyes:

What work is to be done on this scheme? one completely new junction, and a rebuild of an existing junction?
and D3M

There's 2 abp approvals. Is one for the completely new build junction?

The Naas bypass is 10.5 km, while its another 6km to the M9 junction

The M1 widening works (7km) were done in the bottom of the recession, there's surely money to build this widening now, and build the new junction after.

SoupyNorman · 21-08-2015 4:16pm

I’m willing this project to happen, mainly due to my fear that the road is only going to see an increase in traffic volumes due to people being pushed out of Dublin due to the housing crisis. Right now, the commute is tolerable, mornings are fine going up but the evenings are hit and miss.

I have to agree with the sentiment of many though and say that driver behaviour is deplorable on out motorways, the left lane is the least used land on the N7. It just seems to be one huge game of leap frog and jesus help you if you try leave a safe gap between you and the car in front, others feel compelled to squeeze in there.

Hell, I’d just be happed if they widened the southbound portion to the M9 to 3 lanes…everyone could take a chill pill then.

mandraker1000 · 31-08-2015 1:27pm

It amazes me they way people go on about tolling on routes such as the M/N7 or likely M11 ( no experience with this one) as a mechanism to "encourage" people to leave their cars at home and take public transport instead. The reality is that people have no choice but to take their cars into Dublin if they want to get to work. I live between Sallins & Newbridge (both have which have very good commuter trains) ...but I WON'T use them !!!, why?? Well Let me explain !. I work in Sandyford, to get from my home to work takes approx 40 - 45 min ( if I time it correctly ...and failing accidents / construction) . IF I decided to take public transport I would need to take a train from either Sallins or Newbridge to Heuston, then a Bus / Luas to O'Connell St. , walk to St Stephen Green then finally a Luas to Sandyford, total time > 2 hours. I don't know about the rest of the people on this forum ...but life is short ...I don't want to spend > 4 hours per day getting to and from work. I appreciate that in my case perhaps it's a little awkward to get form Home to Work but I sense that there are an awful lot of people in a very similar situation. Now for those out there whom might suggest ...Why don't you move closer to where you work ???....NO!!!. ....I DO NOT want to live in Dublin !!!..I like where I live . I genuinely would love to leave my car at home but without a reasonable public transport system this won't happen. If I could give an example of what I'd consider a public transport system, if you take the city of Stockholm ( which is approx 300-400k more people that Dublin..ie: it's not that much bigger) then this is a map of their public transport (rail component only) h**p://sl.se/ficktid/karta/vinter/SL_Sp%C3%A5rtrafik.pdf ....I think you'll agree it's a little different. To be fair these people have been building this for decades and you certainly couldn't expect Dublin to produce something remotely like this in a short time , but it's called forward taught, planning and commitment. In the meantime, most park'n'rides that I've visited are free ...except ireland ( don't they want people to use them ??). As for tolling, if I get tolled I'm simply going to pass it on as a salary request to my employer and sooner or later it'll have the effect of driving up employment costs ( double , as it'll be after tax) , so ultimately every looses. I appreciate that somebody has to pay for road construction & maintenance But I believe we already pay rather a lot for car tax , so why are they giving some of it to Irish Water ( sorry , not getting into that here!!)

Idbatterim · 31-08-2015 1:37pm

I totally agree Mandraker, the options for people unless you are going into An Lar are laughable! the luas lines being linked, will make things a bit better, but DU is badly needed. No one in their right mind who has a car, is going to ditch it for that joke of a commute you would have to take... 2015 and that is Dublins transport network, its a total disgrace!

_Kaiser_ · 01-09-2015 11:00am

I'm in exactly the same position... priced out of Dublin (it's like it's 2005 all over again) due to rent hikes and the Government's inaction in dealing with the housing crisis they've created and like Mandraker I am trekking up to Sandyford every day which by car is bearable - and thankfully I can be somewhat flexible in my hours and work from home occasionally - but using public transport would take at least 4 hours a day.. not to mention the expense because it's not exactly cheap either!

The idea that everyone should leave the car at home and spend hours commuting to and from work on our unreliable, costly, and patchy-outside-Dublin public transport system in a country that is busy pushing more and more workers into the surrounding counties again is just nonsense.

01-09-2015 6:12pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

The idea that everyone should leave the car at home and spend hours commuting to and from work on our unreliable, costly, and patchy-outside-Dublin public transport system in a country that is busy pushing more and more workers into the surrounding counties again is just nonsense.

While leaving (or is that keeping) all the jobs in Dublin.

01-09-2015 6:26pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I'm in exactly the same position... priced out of Dublin (it's like it's 2005 all over again) due to rent hikes and the Government's inaction in dealing with the housing crisis they've created and like Mandraker I am trekking up to Sandyford every day which by car is bearable - and thankfully I can be somewhat flexible in my hours and work from home occasionally - but using public transport would take at least 4 hours a day.. not to mention the expense because it's not exactly cheap either!

The idea that everyone should leave the car at home and spend hours commuting to and from work on our unreliable, costly, and patchy-outside-Dublin public transport system in a country that is busy pushing more and more workers into the surrounding counties again is just nonsense.

Who was suggesting leaving the car at home and taking public transport ?

The only time I suggested that was if the public transport network was good enough.

01-09-2015 6:29pm

mandraker1000 wrote: »

It amazes me they way people go on about tolling on routes such as the M/N7 or likely M11

If you had the choice to sit in traffic every day or pay a toll what would you do ? you would choose to sit in traffic ?

marmurr1916 · 01-09-2015 11:25pm

mandraker1000 wrote: »

It amazes me they way people go on about tolling on routes such as the M/N7 or likely M11 ( no experience with this one) as a mechanism to "encourage" people to leave their cars at home and take public transport instead. The reality is that people have no choice but to take their cars into Dublin if they want to get to work. I live between Sallins & Newbridge (both have which have very good commuter trains) ...but I WON'T use them !!!, why?? Well Let me explain !. I work in Sandyford, to get from my home to work takes approx 40 - 45 min ( if I time it correctly ...and failing accidents / construction) . IF I decided to take public transport I would need to take a train from either Sallins or Newbridge to Heuston, then a Bus / Luas to O'Connell St. , walk to St Stephen Green then finally a Luas to Sandyford, total time > 2 hours. I don't know about the rest of the people on this forum ...but life is short ...I don't want to spend > 4 hours per day getting to and from work. I appreciate that in my case perhaps it's a little awkward to get form Home to Work but I sense that there are an awful lot of people in a very similar situation. Now for those out there whom might suggest ...Why don't you move closer to where you work ???....NO!!!. ....I DO NOT want to live in Dublin !!!..I like where I live . I genuinely would love to leave my car at home but without a reasonable public transport system this won't happen. If I could give an example of what I'd consider a public transport system, if you take the city of Stockholm ( which is approx 300-400k more people that Dublin..ie: it's not that much bigger) then this is a map of their public transport (rail component only) h**p://sl.se/ficktid/karta/vinter/SL_Sp%C3%A5rtrafik.pdf ....I think you'll agree it's a little different. To be fair these people have been building this for decades and you certainly couldn't expect Dublin to produce something remotely like this in a short time , but it's called forward taught, planning and commitment. In the meantime, most park'n'rides that I've visited are free ...except ireland ( don't they want people to use them ??). As for tolling, if I get tolled I'm simply going to pass it on as a salary request to my employer and sooner or later it'll have the effect of driving up employment costs ( double , as it'll be after tax) , so ultimately every looses. I appreciate that somebody has to pay for road construction & maintenance But I believe we already pay rather a lot for car tax , so why are they giving some of it to Irish Water ( sorry , not getting into that here!!)

Do you think that most people in Stockholm live more than 40km by road or more than 50km by rail from their place of work?

No public transport system in any country would get you to work in less than 90 minutes given the distance you live from your work.

You're the one who needs to do a bit of forward planning - although having completely unrealistic expectations about the ability of public transport to get you from your chosen place of residence to your chosen place of work in a time frame you consider acceptable suggests you don't really grasp the concept.

On your 'point' about car tax - it hasn't been hypothecated (look it up) for decades, if it ever was.

Carawaystick · 02-09-2015 9:42am

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Do you think that most people in Stockholm live more than 40km by road or more than 50km by rail from their place of work?

No public transport system in any country would get you to work in less than 90 minutes given the distance you live from your work.

You're the one who needs to do a bit of forward planning - although having completely unrealistic expectations about the ability of public transport to get you from your chosen place of residence to your chosen place of work in a time frame you consider acceptable suggests you don't really grasp the concept.

You're making very large assumptions about the ability of people to a) live where they want and b) work where they want. Lots of people are in negative equity in their homes and cant sell up amd move. And there's a big unemployment problem in the country at the minute, in case it passed you by....

I'd hope a rail public transit system could average better than 30kmh or so you seem to think is the upper limit

_Kaiser_ · 02-09-2015 11:26am

Deleted User wrote: »

Who was suggesting leaving the car at home and taking public transport ?

The only time I suggested that was if the public transport network was good enough.

Wasn't aimed at you

but on your point.. public transport isn't, has never been, and probably never will be, adequate for the "Irish situation". It's been that way for certainly the 40 years I've been around!

As dolanbaker points out above, while people may be forced to move further out to put a roof over their heads thanks to spiking rents and limited supply to rent OR buy, their job will most likely be still back in Dublin.. possibly somewhere not easy to get to from "the sticks" like Sandyford, Blanch etc

It happened before a decade ago, and it's happening again and public transport is no better than it was then for these people. PT is fine if you're making a simple A-B trip along a given route... but if you deviate from that, or have to make multiple connections, the time lost and the expense make it more worthwhile to just drive!

The ONLY way to solve both problems is to build up, not out and CPO the empty/abandoned plots of land within the city boundaries to do it. Rather than lowering minimum apartment standards, they should be increased to Euro-spec family sized dwellings with security and local amenities AND transport links in place to make them attractive. Think how many Semi-D's would be freed up by having such apartments available to single people, or students, or childless couples who want to be in the city.

But in Ireland we don't want to live in apartments and we don't want to invest in the rest of the country (with the exception of maybe Cork and Galway) so the reality is that private car traffic (and the problems that come with it) are going to be with us indefinitely and we might as well accept that and plan/develop accordingly, rather than trying to turn the place into Amsterdam or something!

Deedsie · 02-09-2015 11:35am

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Do you think that most people in Stockholm live more than 40km by road or more than 50km by rail from their place of work?

No public transport system in any country would get you to work in less than 90 minutes given the distance you live from your work.

You're the one who needs to do a bit of forward planning - although having completely unrealistic expectations about the ability of public transport to get you from your chosen place of residence to your chosen place of work in a time frame you consider acceptable suggests you don't really grasp the concept.

On your 'point' about car tax - it hasn't been hypothecated (look it up) for decades, if it ever was.

I'd broadly agree with that, no one was forced to purchase a house 40km from where they work. Was there sufficient public transport when you moved in and it was removed? If not a lot of personal responsibility has to be taken.

4.5 million people live throughout Ireland (+2 million in the North), we are never going to have a ninfrastructure network like France, Germany or Britain. A bit of spatial planning and discouraging people from buying houses in isolated locations away from existing public transport and many kilometres from where they actually work would be a good government policy

02-09-2015 11:52am

Ireland has a huge amount of one off housing dotted disgracefully around the Island which is imo unsustainable and no signs of it changing.

There should be proper developments with proper infrastructure and Public parks etc rather than match box size houses in horrible looking housing estates littered all over Ireland. We have plenty of space for proper developments and I'm not saying we should not have high density housing but there are many towns and villages that should never have those hideous looking housing estates shoved on top of one another.

I look at the really nice towns and villages in the German Countryside for instance, no housing estates, nice looking houses that are not all identical. Decently spaced apart, Nice greenery , parks and mostly proper infrastructure linking any half decent Town and village. A really lovely place with proper thought and effort into the design and look of houses, villages and towns.

Bray Head · 02-09-2015 1:22pm

Even Ireland's busiest motorways are only ever busy to the point of slowing down traffic about 3 hours a day, 5 days a week (match days and festivals too of course). This is less than 10% of the hours in the week.

Tolling could play a very useful role in spreading some of this excess demand to times when the network is less busy.

People who are then prepared to pay a toll to travel at peak times will also get a better product, namely a quicker journey.

People are arguing like they were assigned both a house and a place of work at birth with no potential to change. This is argument is fallacious. Most people move house several times during their life and their place of work many more times. There is a large element of personal choice involved in all of these decisions.

As a student I had a 3-hour round trip commute. I hated it and resolved never to do it again. Over the years I've paid well above average in housing costs but I've been happy to do so because I really dislike long commutes.

02-09-2015 1:33pm

At 84 miles round trip commute I don't find it excessive at about 1 hr each way but I'd rather not do it. I'd rather not waste so much time commuting but at least the only advantage of shift is I rarely see peak traffic, only when going up to work on days.

I would love if Carlow or Kilkenny, Naas etc had more employment but this is not going to happen.

Deedsie · 02-09-2015 2:10pm

Bray Head wrote: »

Even Ireland's busiest motorways are only ever busy to the point of slowing down traffic about 3 hours a day, 5 days a week (match days and festivals too of course). This is less than 10% of the hours in the week.

Tolling could play a very useful role in spreading some of this excess demand to times when the network is less busy.

People who are then prepared to pay a toll to travel at peak times will also get a better product, namely a quicker journey.

People are arguing like they were assigned both a house and a place of work at birth with no potential to change. This is argument is fallacious. Most people move house several times during their life and their place of work many more times. There is a large element of personal choice involved in all of these decisions.

As a student I had a 3-hour round trip commute. I hated it and resolved never to do it again. Over the years I've paid well above average in housing costs but I've been happy to do so because I really dislike long commutes.

Exactly, a large element of personal choice. But if you choose to live in Nass and work in Sandyford for example it is a bit unreasonable to blame the government for not providing direct transport between the two locations? I wish we had a more interconnected network but people can be extremely unrealistic in their expectations of what the government can actually provide.

Bray Head · 02-09-2015 2:17pm

Public transport is a bit of a red herring in this argument.

It only provides transport for a high % of people in very large, quite dense cities like London or Paris.

I would like public transport to increase its modal share but in reality there is a a natural limit. Ireland has both low average population density and high population dispersion. Both are the enemy of public transport. Even inner Dublin is full of two-storey dwellings and has large open spaces. The car is always going to account for the majority of commuting activity in Ireland.

What I am arguing for is better use of tolls to manage demand on the motorways we already have.

pad199207 · 14-09-2015 10:45am

I've heard recently that funding is going to be announced by the government for this project in the coming months!

SoupyNorman · 14-09-2015 11:06am

pad199207 wrote: »

I've heard recently that funding is going to be announced by the government for this project in the coming months!

Where did you hear this pray tell?

pad199207 · 14-09-2015 11:24am

SoupyNorman wrote: »

Where did you hear this pray tell?

I don't know how reputable the source is but it does look and sound genuine...

http://www.kildarenow.com/news/end-in-sight-for-m7-bottleneck-between-naas-and-newbridge/42231

SoupyNorman · 14-09-2015 11:44am

pad199207 wrote: »

I don't know how reputable the source is but it does look and sound genuine...

http://www.kildarenow.com/news/end-in-sight-for-m7-bottleneck-between-naas-and-newbridge/42231

Look, we can only hope.

It looks like a must though as the N7 is the 2nd busiest road in the country (and getting busier)

14-09-2015 5:20pm

Question is if they do upgrade it will they upgrade to take today's traffic or will it be the usual , in 15 years it will be at a standstill again ?

Idbatterim · 14-09-2015 5:30pm

Question is if they do upgrade it will they upgrade to take today's traffic or will it be the usual , in 15 years it will be at a standstill again ?

far more money to be made, doing the bare minimum job. They can start all over again in about a decade...

gilly0512 · 15-09-2015 12:32am

Idbatterim wrote: »

far more money to be made, doing the bare minimum job. They can start all over again in about a decade...

I would presume that they will just have it at three lanes each way to Junction 11, which in fairness I think most of us would happily take at the moment. However this plan was also initially supposed to include a bypass of Sallins with a new junction in or around the new Kerry premises, I wonder will this also be included? Finally how long should this project take, you would think that this is not a major road upgrade, and you would be expecting a year at most, although if it includes a bypass of Sallins with a new junction, we're probably looking at 18 months. I also live in fear that they would be stupid enough to stick a toll on this new section of road, although hopefully they will have the sense to see that putting a toll on this road would just drive people back into Naas & Newbridge to avoid the toll.

JupiterKid · 15-09-2015 1:23am

When the Naas Bypass was being constructed in the early 1980s there was talk of tolling the road but it never happened. I can't see this road ever being tolled.

regedit · 15-09-2015 7:16am

gilly2308 wrote: »

I would presume that they will just have it at three lanes each way to Junction 11, which in fairness I think most of us would happily take at the moment. However this plan was also initially supposed to include a bypass of Sallins with a new junction in or around the new Kerry premises, I wonder will this also be included? Finally how long should this project take, you would think that this is not a major road upgrade, and you would be expecting a year at most, although if it includes a bypass of Sallins with a new junction, we're probably looking at 18 months. I also live in fear that they would be stupid enough to stick a toll on this new section of road, although hopefully they will have the sense to see that putting a toll on this road would just drive people back into Naas & Newbridge to avoid the toll.

Some 5-6 years ago, the section from Naas toward Newbridge was resurfaced and the two lanes in place plus hard shoulder seem quite wide. Therefore, I doubt it will take them that long. The proposed (Sallins) interchange is just before the Kerry group as you're driving on the M7 toward Newbridge.
Regarding the toll, I find it difficult to digest that they could toll that section as there's a toll less than 50 km further at Portlaoise.

SoupyNorman · 15-09-2015 8:26am

regedit wrote: »

Regarding the toll, I find it difficult to digest that they could toll that section as there's a toll less than 50 km further at Portlaoise.

Also, that'd make it 4 tolls from Dublin Airport to Cork?

Chris_5339762 · 15-09-2015 6:00pm

3 lanes to the Waterford junction, closing the Naas South junction and rebuilding it, and a link road including the Sallins Bypass are all on the table with this one.

Its an online upgrade, so 2+ years is a reasonable timeframe. It'll be torture for 2 years.

AugustusMinimus · 15-09-2015 6:44pm

Might be as well at this stage to do 3 lanes to Kildare. Doubt it would cost much more.

Dial Hard · 15-09-2015 6:47pm

corktina wrote:

The whole problem is the result of years of allowing people to just sit into a car without lessons or a proper license.

Even those who did have lessons and sat the test are essentially unleashed onto motorways without ever having been taught how to drive on them. It's utter lunacy.

regedit · 15-09-2015 7:16pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

3 lanes to the Waterford junction, closing the Naas South junction and rebuilding it, and a link road including the Sallins Bypass are all on the table with this one.

Its an online upgrade, so 2+ years is a reasonable timeframe. It'll be torture for 2 years.

Any source for these claims Chris?
It will take a long time to rebuild Naas South junction

Deedsie · 15-09-2015 7:16pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Might be as well at this stage to do 3 lanes to Kildare. Doubt it would cost much more.

They have only secured planning permission from Naas as far as Newbridge?

Deedsie · 15-09-2015 7:17pm

regedit wrote: »

Any source for these claims Chris?
It will take a long time to rebuild Naas South junction

I thought I read 28 to 34 months construction phase in the planning application?

AugustusMinimus · 15-09-2015 7:44pm

Deedsie wrote: »

They have only secured planning permission from Naas as far as Newbridge?

Sadly true. They could always put in a secondary application. All it would take would be a small bit of earthworks and tarmac.

gilly0512 · 15-09-2015 11:48pm

Deedsie wrote: »

I thought I read 28 to 34 months construction phase in the planning application?

28 to 34 months seems an awful long time though, I know things have improved massively in this country in how long it takes to build motorways, but that seems a ridiculously long time, can't imagine it taking even half of that time in most other modern countries.

Deedsie · 16-09-2015 12:06am

gilly2308 wrote: »

28 to 34 months seems an awful long time though, I know things have improved massively in this country in how long it takes to build motorways, but that seems a ridiculously long time, can't imagine it taking even half of that time in most other modern countries.

It is the second busiest road in the country and during construction the builders will be required to maintain two lanes of traffic open in both directions between 6:00 to 22:00 everyday which will delay things. As with most modern countries Ireland's planning applications seem to always overestimate the length of the construction phase. Excluding the Nenagh to Limerick section of the M7 I can't think of any motorway construction phase that went on longer than the original estimate on the planning application.

16-09-2015 12:35pm

gilly2308 wrote: »

can't imagine it taking even half of that time in most other modern countries.

Ireland is still pretty backward and were Decades behind most of Europe in regard to infrastructure be it roads or public transport, subway, train service etc.

Deedsie · 16-09-2015 12:55pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Ireland is still pretty backward and were Decades behind most of Europe in regard to infrastructure be it roads or public transport, subway, train service etc.

Public transport is poor but I don't see how you can call Ireland backward?

16-09-2015 5:47pm

Deedsie wrote: »

Public transport is poor but I don't see how you can call Ireland backward?

Probably because more forward thinking countries are focusing more on public transport and spatial planning without a brown envelope culture screwing things up.

Deedsie · 16-09-2015 6:43pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Probably because more forward thinking countries are focusing more on public transport and spatial planning without a brown envelope culture screwing things up.

In the thirty years from 1990 to 2020 the country will have set up the Luas and the interconnector, brought in the bike to work scheme and built cycling infrastructure, greenways etc throughout the country which has massively increased cyclist numbers, we will have built ~1000km of the highest standard interurban motorways throughout the country. Motorways tunnelled under the lee and Shannon, built a port tunnel in Dublin... We upgraded the train network and will have the Phoenix park tunnel back in operation next year. We built a new terminal in Dublin Airport and upgraded Shannon and Ireland west airport.

Spatial planning is obviously the way all infrastructure development should be approached but it can be difficult for planners in Ireland as everyone knows our settlement patterns make it ridiculously difficult. The point I am making is that in my opinion backward is an unfair and self hating word. We might not be as developed as our neighbours or those on the continent but things have massively improved in a very short time. We did also go through the greatest financial crisis in our 94 year history.

AugustusMinimus · 16-09-2015 6:58pm

We built the new terminal at Cork Airport too. Pity it's going to waste.

tsofitch · 16-09-2015 7:00pm

Deedsie wrote: »

Public transport is poor

You can say that again

16-09-2015 7:15pm

Deedsie wrote: »

In the thirty years from 1990 to 2020 the country will have set up the Luas and the interconnector, brought in the bike to work scheme and built cycling infrastructure, greenways etc throughout the country which has massively increased cyclist numbers, we will have built ~1000km of the highest standard interurban motorways throughout the country. Motorways tunnelled under the lee and Shannon, built a port tunnel in Dublin... We upgraded the train network and will have the Phoenix park tunnel back in operation next year. We built a new terminal in Dublin Airport and upgraded Shannon and Ireland west airport.

Spatial planning is obviously the way all infrastructure development should be approached but it can be difficult for planners in Ireland as everyone knows our settlement patterns make it ridiculously difficult. The point I am making is that in my opinion backward is an unfair and self hating word. We might not be as developed as our neighbours or those on the continent but things have massively improved in a very short time. We did also go through the greatest financial crisis in our 94 year history.

We're still playing catchup , Dublin needs an underground badly, the Luas is too slow for me, it stops for traffic lights and for traffic, where in other countries it would run underground. Granted it's handy for those who live along the luas.

Dublin has no possible way in or out apart from road.

Cycle lanes ? are you serious ? you really need to go to Germany to see what a cycle lane is.

What greenways ? we still haven't replanted a fraction of our natural forests, Ireland remains the "most" deforested land in the whole of the European continent with less than 1% of forest remain, we over farm we feed many times our population. Most of the land you can't cross without some psycho farmer coming out on his quad ! Fences and keep out all over the place.

Our cycle lanes are shared with bus lanes with taxi's and buses with lamp posts and bus stops. Carlow Co Council made a cycle lane on the old N9 from the I.T out the Kilkenny road, wonderful cycle lane it is too , it's a white line in the hard shoulder with a bicycle painted on it

. We have plenty of land to make cycle lanes away from the roads. A proper cycle lane doesn't have traffic next nor near it. We have plenty of crap narrow one way side streets in towns and cities that could become proper cycle paths.

I love cycling in the German countryside, cycling on forest trails linking towns and villages.

We have too many one off housing scattered unsustainable all over the Island throughout what should be the countryside and still allowed, big boom houses all over the countryside.

Too many housing estates with tiny matchbox size houses that all look the same on top of each other in order to maximise the profit for each square meter. The planning regulations in Ireland are ridiculous.

We still burn solid fuel for heating, the most unregulated and toxic form of fuel. Doesn't get much more backward than this, all the villages in Ireland that choke under clouds of coal smoke.

I could go on but I haven't the time really, A lot I love about Ireland but a lot I don't.

16-09-2015 7:19pm

Deedsie wrote: »

In the thirty years from 1990 to 2020 the country will have set up the Luas and the interconnector, brought in the bike to work scheme and built cycling infrastructure, greenways etc throughout the country which has massively increased cyclist numbers, we will have built ~1000km of the highest standard interurban motorways throughout the country. Motorways tunnelled under the lee and Shannon, built a port tunnel in Dublin... We upgraded the train network and will have the Phoenix park tunnel back in operation next year. We built a new terminal in Dublin Airport and upgraded Shannon and Ireland west airport.

Spatial planning is obviously the way all infrastructure development should be approached but it can be difficult for planners in Ireland as everyone knows our settlement patterns make it ridiculously difficult. The point I am making is that in my opinion backward is an unfair and self hating word. We might not be as developed as our neighbours or those on the continent but things have massively improved in a very short time. We did also go through the greatest financial crisis in our 94 year history.

Yes I agree, but the Vested interests who paid to get inappropriate development approved; for example all the ghost estates and flats in remote rural towns. made our infrastructure issues far worse than they should be.

Deedsie · 16-09-2015 7:20pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

We built the new terminal at Cork Airport too. Pity it's going to waste.

Ya, there have been many improvements that rarely get appreciated or utilised unfortunately.

M7 - Naas/Newbridge Bypass Upgrade [Junction 9a now open]

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