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One-off houses: Good or Bad?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,018 ✭✭✭knipex


    Furet wrote: »
    That said, I don't think selfishness comes into it. I think it's more a case of chronic ignorance. Most one-off housing owners lack the kind of education or information necessary to enable them to appreciate the wider ramifications of one-off housing.

    And that's just condescending......

    I live in a rural area in what would be called a one off house.

    It was built in the early 70's and bought by me in 2005.

    There are 4 houses in the same area 3 side by side and 1 across the road. Two of those houses date back to the 1800's, mine to the early 70's and the last to the late 70's.

    I chose the location for 3 main reasons

    It is less than a mile (walking distance) from a good size village with good schools and clubs. It has all the local amenities I need and until the council bought up the majority of a small estate to re-home "problem families" from the closest urban centre and then abandoned them it was a nice village. (still not a bad place actually).

    Its also just off one of the main urban routes so I am less than a mile from the motor way and direct access to 4 main urban centres, all accessible in 2 hours to 2 hours 15. This is important as I travel quite a bit for word.

    It gives the best start possible to my kids. It allows me the space and opportunity to pass along the skills that my father passed to me (that became a passion). Show me a location in an urban centre where I could have a workshop with welders, woodworking tools, metal working tools, etc. Where I would have the space to restore an old car, raise Boxers and Great Danes (and a mutt). Where I teach them how to cut wood, build fences, build a wall and lay a footpath, wire a lighting circuit, create a garden, plant ash trees, teach them how to take fire wood from an Ash tree yet leave enough for the tree to grow back.

    All the things that are important to me and I would like to pass on to my kids that I couldn't in an Urban centre. Imagine (assuming I could get a house with a large enough garage) starting up a Mig welder in the middle of an estate just as they all sit down to watch x-factor ? Imagine beating out a new sill for a car at 8am on a Saturday morning when they are all still in bed ? Imagine starting a chainsaw on Sunday to cut a bit of firewood just as the math starts ?

    I made my decision for very valid reasons, I thought long and hard before making it and did what I believe was in the best interests of me and my family while having a minimal impact on everyone else.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    I think we need to define "one-off house". I don't think the term is absolute, and after reading some posts above I think it almost has as much to do with the people in the house as with the four walls themselves.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Aard wrote: »
    I think we need to define "one-off house". I don't think the term is absolute, and after reading some posts above I think it almost has as much to do with the people in the house as with the four walls themselves.

    Strictly speaking a "one-off" is a house that was designed and constructed independantly of it's neighbours, old established towns and villages are full of one-offs all in the same street.

    The discussion here is more to do with "single house developments" that are constructed in virgin rural areas, often in isolation from other properties.

    I live in a fairly typical rural settlement, there is a cluster of 12 houses on a minor rural road near a large town. The oldest one being about 80 years old to one less than two years, in the 1860's there were 6 houses here.

    Further down the road there are a number of "McMansions" that were built in the past five years, all of these are isolated from each other.

    Personally, I believe that there will be a migration away from the most isolated single house developments over the next 5 - 15 years as the costs of fuel rise to the point that commuting becomes prohibitivly expensive.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭danbohan


    Furet wrote: »
    To be pedantic: "jealousy" refers specifically to envy within romantic contexts. "Envy" refers to everything else. So I don't think MYOB is truly jealous of you, danbohan ;)

    That said, I don't think selfishness comes into it. I think it's more a case of chronic ignorance. Most one-off housing owners lack the kind of education or information necessary to enable them to appreciate the wider ramifications of one-off housing.

    if anybody is displaying chronic ignorance its you but then we expect that from green urbanites . as a mod you should be ashamed of yourself to make such disparaging remarks but it shows the type of people who are so much against rural living and rural life


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭danbohan


    dubhthach wrote: »
    By that logic taxmoney raised in Urban areas (the vast majority of all tax-income) should only be spent in Urban areas.


    and food grown in rural areas kept for rural areas ? neither is substaible without the other


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭danbohan


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    You would lack the ability financially to live in a one off house if you had to cover the full costs of doing so and did not have the cost subsidies by taxes generated in urban areas.



    If he is paying for you to live there then yes, he should have an input into what goes on in rural areas.

    full cost , explain and show me a urban rural comparsion, and i pay for all my services unlike most urban dwellers

    rural dwellers pay taxes too , did you not know that . input yes but not in a way that effects the lives of people who chose to live in rural areas


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    I live in a fairly typical rural settlement, there is a cluster of 12 houses on a minor rural road near a large town. The oldest one being about 80 years old to one less than two years, in the 1860's there were 6 houses here.

    Further down the road there are a number of "McMansions" that were built in the past five years, all of these are isolated from each other.

    Indeed I mentioned in earlier post that traditional rural living were in nucleated settlements called Clocháns. These could range in size from 5-10 houses up to 100! You just have to look at ordnance survey maps from 1840's and the 25" map from early 20th century to see them.

    It's considerably more sustainable and easier to provide services to a dozen houses in a cluster then it is to provide same services to a dozen houses spread out in ribbon development over a couple km's.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Furet wrote: »
    Don't misunderstand me: I'm not saying they're uneducated in general. I am saying they don't have the necessary knowledge of planning, economic geography, infrastructural provision, and environmental awareness. The vast majority of Irish people don't either, whether they live in towns, cities, villages or one-offs.
    Without an understanding of these issues, people are ignorant of them, and, because of that ignorance, I wouldn't call someone 'selfish' because he wants to live in a one-off house. I'd just call him under-educated when it comes to housing and planning.
    danbohan wrote: »
    if anybody is displaying chronic ignorance its you but then we expect that from green urbanites . as a mod you should be ashamed of yourself to make such disparaging remarks but it shows the type of people who are so much against rural living and rural life

    I'm not a bit ashamed of my remark and am convinced of its accuracy. Without a solid grounding in the areas I mentioned in my post above, people are ignorant of the consequences of one-off housing. I don't see how anyone can argue with that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    danbohan wrote: »
    full cost , explain and show me a urban rural comparsion, and i pay for all my services unlike most urban dwellers

    rural dwellers pay taxes too , did you not know that . input yes but not in a way that effects the lives of people who chose to live in rural areas

    The average Dubliner subsidises the State by €6,000. The average Mayo citizen is subsidised by €2,000.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,664 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    danbohan wrote: »
    full cost , explain and show me a urban rural comparsion, and i pay for all my services unlike most urban dwellers

    Firstly, explain what you mean by "unlike most urban dwellers"

    Secondly, the price you pay for power, broadband, water (if charged), school transport for children (if provided) and so on do not cover the additional costs of delivery to you.
    danbohan wrote: »
    rural dwellers pay taxes too , did you not know that . input yes but not in a way that effects the lives of people who chose to live in rural areas

    Not enough to pay for their lifestyle choices.

    When you chose to life somewhere that doesn't detrimentally affect the entire country financially and economically, I'll stop criticising it.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭danbohan


    Aard wrote: »
    The average Dubliner subsidises the State by €6,000. The average Mayo citizen is subsidised by €2,000.

    sources ? not pub facts


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭danbohan


    MYOB wrote: »
    Firstly, explain what you mean by "unlike most urban dwellers"

    Secondly, the price you pay for power, broadband, water (if charged), school transport for children (if provided) and so on do not cover the additional costs of delivery to you.



    Not enough to pay for their lifestyle choices.

    When you chose to life somewhere that doesn't detrimentally affect the entire country financially and economically, I'll stop criticising it.

    ok , you come back with detailed facts and figures to back up your claims


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,664 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    danbohan wrote: »
    ok , you come back with detailed facts and figures to back up your claims

    You prove your claim that "most urban dwellers" don't pay for services first.

    I'll provide sources for my claims, and Aard's in fact, when you do this. Because I have sources; I suspect you don't.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭danbohan


    MYOB wrote: »
    You prove your claim that "most urban dwellers" don't pay for services first.

    I'll provide sources for my claims, and Aard's in fact, when you do this. Because I have sources; I suspect you don't.

    you dont have sources if you had you would be only too willing to ram it down our throats , so put up or shut my green friend

    Warned for baiting. A ban will follow if you persist. Please be civil. ~ Mod


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,664 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    danbohan wrote: »
    you dont have sources if you had you would be only too willing to ram it down our throats , so put up or shut my green friend

    No, I'm not willing to spend the (small) amount of time to get the statistics for you when you're making unverifiable (and indeed untrue) claims yourself

    "put up or shut up" yourself first.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭danbohan


    danbohan wrote: »
    you dont have sources if you had you would be only too willing to ram it down our throats , so put up or shut my green friend

    Warned for baiting. A ban will follow if you persist. Please be civil. ~ Mod

    so its an offence to say somebody is a green now is it ? , anyway i am out of here , its pretty obvious you want maintain this discussion to urban based greens and dont really like anybody having an alternative view , typical of the ''greens'' really


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    danbohan wrote: »
    so its an offence to say somebody is a green now is it ? , anyway i am out of here , its pretty obvious you want maintain this discussion to urban based greens and dont really like anybody having an alternative view , typical of the ''greens'' really

    Not at all. I love alternative views here. Knipex, who also lives in a one-off house, has made excellent posts that are a model of how the discussion should be conducted. Yours have been outright hostile. I issued you a yellow card warning because you insist on labelling specific posters as 'green' (me and MYOB), even though MYOB told you he wasn't (and neither am I, for the record). To my mind this is a form of ad hominem. You are welcome to return to the thread provided you remain civil. That's all I ask.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Furet wrote: »
    Don't misunderstand me: I'm not saying they're uneducated in general. I am saying they don't have the necessary knowledge of planning, economic geography, infrastructural provision, and environmental awareness.

    Fair enough, though to my mind the word 'enlightened' would have been a better word to use. To quote Einstein 'Education is what is left after you've forgotten everything you've learned' and education in ireland is something that's sorely lacking, especially in many people that describe themselves ad educated.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    I found this article from an anti one-off housing blog:
    Population dispersal leads to a diffusion in the provision of services resulting in a lowering of quality and efficiency.

    Chief amongst the fundamental requirements of proper planning and sustainable development is the measurement of the cost and the benefits to society of land use policy. Policy strategies for economic development cannot ignore the spatial structure of the economy.

    Land has no value. Value accrues when labour and capital are applied to it (particularly transport infrastructure)¥. This investment is made by society as a whole. Accordingly, since no benefit, private or commercial, in society can be derived from any private or public property without recourse to the use of public infrastructure and services, the obligatory objective must always be to seek to optimise public investment in infrastructure and services through applying locational control criteria to new development. This is the Raison D’être for the planning system – for the common good. Land uses which increase costs to society faster than increasing benefits, result in unmeasured or hidden user costs to the public or undermine national competivness should therefore be discouraged

    Despite the socially popular rationale for the persistent mandating a policy of random one off housing, like all dispersed settlement patterns, this policy quickly looses its rationale once an even elementary economic analysis is applied.

    Unsurprisingly the cost of providing all public and private services together with providing and maintaining infrastructure to dispersed one-off rural housing is significantly more expensive and inefficient. Dispersed one-off rural housing is therefore economically profligate.

    Each new one-off dwelling unit constructed demands more resources than are received in taxes, and the burden of those costs are passed on to other tax payers. Most of the significant hidden costs which arise as a result of the existence of each one-off house are externalised with the additional expense borne by the national Exchequer to the detriment of other necessary services. For example, postal services to one-off rural households are four times more than an urban house. Since there is no connection charge for postal services and all householders pay the same, the Government (tax payer) is therefore providing a de facto financial subsidy to all one-off households. On the other hand, an electricity connection to a rural house is 122% higher than for an urban one. A price differential is maintained after that because the annual standing charge for rural areas is 61% higher. The higher rural standing charge for electricity reflects extra costs e.g. those caused by storm damage to overhead wires, is confirmation of the extra costs associated with dispersed rural settlement. However, no other publicly provided service or infrastructure maintains this differential.

    Ireland has a hugely inefficient electricity supply network. The ESB is forced to maintain more than three times the length of distribution circuit per customer as compared to, for example, the UK. To avoid voltage drop over this extended network, at least one transformer for every square kilometre is needed in almost 75% of the area supplied by the ESB. This means that Ireland has almost one third the number of transformers as in the UK despite having a total distribution network of just half the size and 6% of its population. The higher connection charge levied on rural inhabitants (which incidentally applies not only to one-off rural dwellers but all rural areas) only accounts for half the actual cost of connection due to a ceiling imposed by the CER. In addition, unit prices are the same in urban and rural areas and as a consequence rural dwellers do not incur subsequent charges associated with the significant maintenance requirements of the extra length of power line (particularly due to falling trees etc) or the profligate loss of electricity due to the inefficient and lengthy network.

    Providing access to rural house plots places a heavy burden on country roads. Local authorities are responsible for maintaining 92,000km of the national road network in Ireland. Since 2000, over €3 billion (c. €500 million per annum) has been allocated to non-national roads. If we allow just half of the total rural allocation to one-off rural houses, the cost is about €7,500 per dwelling during this period. Many of these minor roads are laneways that evolved with farming practice. They were not designed for construction machinery or regular increased vehicular movements, including service vehicles. Maintaining the status quo policy with respect to rural housing would bring heavily loaded trucks and increased traffic volumes onto minor roads. The failure rate of rural roads could rise sharply resulting in an increased requirement for maintenance and additional vehicle collisions. That could add over €10,000 to the development cost of each rural house plot. That expense is currently borne by the central Exchequer.

    Section 48 of the Planning & Development Act 2000 is intended to provide a mechanism whereby the costs associated with the public provision of infrastructure and services can be internalised by the developer and ultimately by the homeowner. However, in most instances throughout rural Ireland the Section 48 development contribution levies applied to one-off rural dwellings on unzoned and unserviced sites are subject to a significantly lower S.48 levy. Financial contributions with respect to wastewater and water supply infrastructure are frequently not applied.

    In addition, Part V: Social & Affordable Housing does not apply. In the meantime, urban dwellers pay the full range of development contribution levies. This is an entirely inequitable situation whereby the form of development which places the most cost on public services and infrastructure is subject to the lowest levy. If all of the costs of constructing a one-off rural dwelling were in the internalised by the rural house dweller the costs would be generally prohibitive.

    The lack of adequate high speed broadband provision in Ireland is a persistent topic of conversation in recent years undermining Ireland’s objective to become a ‘Smart’ economy. Census 2006 illustrated that just 45,000 households in aggregate rural areas of Ireland had a broadband connection as compared to 250,000 in aggregate town areas. This is because the provision of broadband in rural areas is unsurprisingly much more expensive to private companies. The Government is now rolling out the Rural Broadband Scheme at a cost to the state of €235 million.

    The provision of public transport services in rural areas with a dispersed settlement structure is evidently much more expensive and inefficient often running at a net loss and requiring significant or complete subsidisation by the State. Some expensive services are essentially rural. They include the school transport scheme that costs over c. €100 million each year. 96% of the pupils carried are outside the Dublin area (4 P.A.s). A rural family with 3 children can gain an annual subsidy of over €2,000 from the State. An increase in remote rural housing would add substantially to the cost of this service.

    It quotes numbers and statistics liberally but gives no references. I want to see reputable references.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Aidan1


    It's considerably more sustainable and easier to provide services to a dozen houses in a cluster

    This is the key point, and it needs to be made repeatedly, and loudly.

    Agglomeration works, and not just for an distant and amorphous body called 'the State', but for everyone.

    In the first instance, one off rural housing in this country is supported by a whole range of means, most of which are invisible, and are instead buried in higher costs for a whole range of goods and services. Any regulated service with a universal service provision attached is made vastly more expensive by low housing density, and single houses distant from any others (which can be two different things). So, for example, postal, telecommunications and electricity costs all contain these charges, which adds to everyones costs, hurts competitiveness, and results in a cross subsidy where people in urban areas pay the extra cost associated with those who want to live away from others. Then you have to consider the costs of providing primary education, healthcare, and transport infrastructure on a widely disaggregated basis. Then there is the fact that other costs are socialised on a general basis, like water treatment, or even compliance with EU Directives on Nitrates or Water Quality, but those living in rural areas are responsible for a far greater share of the damage. A similar issue applies with regard to emissions (and is part of the reason why a carbon tax is such a good idea).

    Secondly, there are a whole range of positive reasons why agglomeration is a good idea. For children, the old*, the infirm, there are important benefits from having others around them for security, for assistance, or just to keep them occupied. It makes privately provided services much easier to provide (shops, banking, housing), and means that additional State supports are not required to 'push' these services closer to the people they are to serve.

    And lastly there is the risk question - one off rural housing is unilaterally premised on a cheap energy economy. It's all very well and good to commit to living 30kms by road from your place of work, and 5km from the nearest shop or school, in a 2,500sq ft bungalow heated by kerosene, when oil is at $85pb. If you earn enough, it's entirely doable (so long as someone is willing to pay for the upkeep of the roads). Now, try that for a few years with oil at $150pb, or $200, and with a carbon price of €40/t. Your earning requirement just went way the hell up, just to stand still (and remember that oil prices feed into the price of every single consumer good).

    I'm not suggesting that people need to be pushed into 'slums', or neo-Stalinist hyper green versions of Ballymun. We can mitigate a lot of these by focusing population growth in rural areas into villages, and on a national basis, into our 5 cities, on the basis of a calm and rational landuse policy. The sensationalist hyperbole spouted by the likes of 'Irish Rural Link', or those who insist on some conspiracy, only serves to obscure the fact that we've painted ourselves into a very difficult corner by allowing people to build anywhere they want. Making the problem worse is not exactly a tenable solution.

    *This is a timebomb - the demographic geography of Ireland is such that there is an entire generation of older people living in rural areas, often very distant from any urban centre or even from neighbours. As this generation pushes into their later years, and the population around ages due to the lack of jobs for younger people, there will be fewer and fewer means of supporting them and providing services. This will affect broad swathes of the countryside, particularly in the BMW region, but also in the more remote parts of the rest of the country


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    This image is telling:
    one-off.jpg


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Aidan1


    Interesting map. Appalling really - the story has always been that there were heroes and villains when it came to the manner in which Local Authorities gave out pp in one off situations. Clearly this was false, cos there's no clear county bias there.

    Now all we need is a geo specific data set for mortgage holders in 'in distress', for comparative purposes. Because you can safely assume that at least 90% of those homes are in negative equity. Yet another legacy of the last decade we could do without.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    I'm assuming a large amount of these are holiday homes, especially in places like Mullet and Achill as I can't imagine there been that much population growth in Mullet peninsula. Of the ones off houses built over the last 10 years do we have any figures for how many are classed as "Holiday homes"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    I think the scale of that map is way off. There are hundreds of one-offs near me right now (for shame, I'm in one at the moment, built in 1983) that aren't represented on that graphic.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Are you sure that's not a relief map of Ireland?


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,664 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Aard wrote: »
    Are you sure that's not a relief map of Ireland?

    Most of the empty white is mountain but not all mountains are empty white; so definitely not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 369 ✭✭Empire o de Sun


    Isolated with the snow?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 92 ✭✭FF and proud


    Isolated with the snow?

    Ah sure tis shockin stuff, all the grit is used up for them people in the cities and towns with nothin left over for the rest of the roads. Sure getting back to the thread, sure you can cant be tellin people where they can and cant live. If people dont want to live in cities like Dublin, Galway or Athlone with all the crime pollution traffic and all that, you cant make them. You just cant make them, its just not on. Each to their own if you catch my drift.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Isolated with the snow?

    Goes with the territory, if you can't put up with the lack of resources, move into a town. Those of us who have spent most of our lives in the sticks expect this type of situation and just get on with it!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Goes with the territory, if you can't put up with the lack of resources, move into a town. Those of us who have spent most of our lives in the sticks expect this type of situation and just get on with it!

    Cheers dolanbaker.


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