Allegation McGuinness ordered RUC assassinations

fasttalkerchat · 02-05-2012 4:55pm

Border-Rat wrote: »

Is this the voice of experience?

I've been stopped at checkpoints by the PSNI about 10 times and never had a sectarian or racist remark made. 20 years ago I could have been pulled out, called a dirty fenian and taken to the nearest holding centre just for having an Irish name. So yes, ex-RUC behave different when in the PSNI.

I'm not saying that they have changed enough but that is a massive difference.

snafuk35 · 02-05-2012 8:12pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

Allegations by people with a vested interest?????????? :rolleyes:
Isn't that what people are horrified by in the case of Jean McConville. Absurd and hypocrital post alert!

Why do you think they had a vested interest? Gerry Adams denied he was a member of the IRA and they knew intimately - having killed on his orders - that he was in the IRA. BUT they did not speak publically - they spoke to historical researchers on condition that their statements would not be released until they were dead.

Happyman42 · 02-05-2012 8:42pm

snafuk35 wrote: »

Why do you think they had a vested interest? Gerry Adams denied he was a member of the IRA and they knew intimately - having killed on his orders - that he was in the IRA. BUT they did not speak publically - they spoke to historical researchers on condition that their statements would not be released until they were dead.

Add them to the list of those who claimed to have shot Michael Collins, the millions that where inside the GPO in 1916. :rolleyes:

If their claims have not been prosecuted in a court of law then it is suspect and unverifiable.
Not that it matters much in the scheme of things.

Border-Rat · 02-05-2012 11:09pm

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I've been stopped at checkpoints by the PSNI about 10 times and never had a sectarian or racist remark made. 20 years ago I could have been pulled out, called a dirty fenian and taken to the nearest holding centre just for having an Irish name. So yes, ex-RUC behave different when in the PSNI.

I'm not saying that they have changed enough but that is a massive difference.

Oh, a whole ten times. You obviously don't live here then. Gotta love this particular type of lecture.

Hannibal · 02-05-2012 11:24pm

snafuk35 wrote: »

Why do you think they had a vested interest? Gerry Adams denied he was a member of the IRA and they knew intimately - having killed on his orders - that he was in the IRA. BUT they did not speak publically - they spoke to historical researchers on condition that their statements would not be released until they were dead.

Both Hughes and Price have been severely critical of the Sinn Féin leadership since the early 90's when their work towards the peace process resulted in the IRA ceasefire, they were both unhappy with the direction of the republican movement. People are happy to accept the word of Hughes and Price on anything they have to say yet they won't accept the word of Adams or McGuinness who have led the republican movement and most of the IRA away from violence and into a ceasefire, GFA and onto decomissioning.

They both spoke to researchers as they will never be answerable to what they said, Dolours Price has been in and out of psychiatric hospitals suffering from Post traumatic stress. Their "vested interest" is that they both along with the lunatics in the RIRA never wanted to see a political solution they wanted a war until the end.

When you study Gerry Adams you will see he has been one of the best politicians in the country over the last 100 years in how he along with the SF leadership engineered around 95% of militant republicans over a period of 15/20 years to follow a political path and the result is the situation we have today.

Adams has been in the public eye as a member of SF for over 30 years but there is not one shred of proof to connect him to IRA membership except a few allegations from people that wanted war or a few twisted journalists who don't understand the basics of what the conflict was even all about. In the last elections in Belfast he won over 70% of first preference votes and all by the people who know him best.

Border-Rat · 02-05-2012 11:29pm

Yes, Adams is an exceptional politician. This isn't something you notice straight away, you need to understand the system first. Dissidents don't, worse don't want to.

K-9 · 02-05-2012 11:45pm

Border-Rat wrote: »

Yes, Adams is an exceptional politician..

Indeed he is, a consummate politician, with Teflon characteristics.

Hannibal · 02-05-2012 11:50pm

Border-Rat wrote: »

Yes, Adams is an exceptional politician. This isn't something you notice straight away, you need to understand the system first. Dissidents don't, worse don't want to.

I don't think some of the dissidents have the brains to understand. I don't know about up north but any of them in Dublin that I know think they're Tony Soprano it's almost comical, and the less said about the 32CSM and Eirigi the better because I don't honestly think they know what day or year it is.

Happyman42 · 02-05-2012 11:57pm

K-9 wrote: »

Indeed he is, a consummate politician, with Teflon characteristics.

Teflon doesn't stop bullets, which is what he managed to avoid from those within and without, who would have had no compunction to do it. His skills at leadership are beyond doubt.

K-9 · 03-05-2012 12:25am

Happyman42 wrote: »

Teflon doesn't stop bullets,

Indeed

which is what he managed to avoid from those within and without

Oh, indeed.

who would have had no compunction to do it. His skills at leadership are beyond doubt.

As were Bertie's, hence the reference.

Happyman42 · 03-05-2012 12:52am

K-9 wrote: »

Indeed

Oh, indeed.

As were Bertie's, hence the reference.

There is always a cancer at the heart of a state with unfinished business and abandonment because you have to fake integrity and honesty.
2 to 3 generations down the line Bertie and his like is what you get.
You reap what you sow.

K-9 · 03-05-2012 1:05am

Happyman42 wrote: »

There is always a cancer at the heart of a state with unfinished business and abandonment because you have to fake integrity and honesty.
2 to 3 generations down the line Bertie and his like is what you get.
You reap what you sow.

I'm intrigued,

Do expand, especially McGuinness and Adams related.

fasttalkerchat · 03-05-2012 1:21am

Border-Rat wrote: »

Oh, a whole ten times. You obviously don't live here then. Gotta love this particular type of lecture.

10 times getting stopped in 3 years driving is a fair bit.
Are you seriously saying that the RUC/PSNI have not changed in any way?
How many people have they murdered? When did you last see a PSNI man beating people in the street?

Don't get me wrong, I know that they are not a normal police force but it is crazy to say that you don't see any difference.

Happyman42 · 03-05-2012 1:21am

K-9 wrote: »

I'm intrigued,

Do expand, especially McGuinness and Adams related.

I would prefer to be led by people who believe in something, who live that something and who have integrity because of it, rather than be led by people who are so steeped in dishonesty and a culture of protecting a clique that they don't even see it anymore.
It's no accident the Roman church was able to wield such influence here, they subdued the people and the elite used and encouraged them, it suited both parties.
Both groups have been outed, Ireland won't be the same again.
That is not to say that I agree with McG & Adams politics, but I would chose them in a heartbeat before I would have FF or FG and even the Irish version of a labour party. Look honestly at the lives they have led for what they believe. It doesn't compare to their southern counterparts.

K-9 · 03-05-2012 10:48am

Happyman42 wrote: »

I would prefer to be led by people who believe in something, who live that something and who have integrity because of it, rather than be led by people who are so steeped in dishonesty and a culture of protecting a clique that they don't even see it anymore.
It's no accident the Roman church was able to wield such influence here, they subdued the people and the elite used and encouraged them, it suited both parties.
Both groups have been outed, Ireland won't be the same again.
That is not to say that I agree with McG & Adams politics, but I would chose them in a heartbeat before I would have FF or FG and even the Irish version of a labour party. Look honestly at the lives they have led for what they believe. It doesn't compare to their southern counterparts.

Well, personally I think that is because you believe what you want to believe, which puts Adams and McGuinness on a high pedestal. For cases like this thread, Republican posters take the word of a suspect RUC officer involved in dirty dealings but then refuse to accept the word of a British intelligence officer involved in the same stuff. I'm just too cynical these days!

Happyman42 · 03-05-2012 11:27am

K-9 wrote: »

British intelligence officer

You have to earn trust and members of that organisation certainly haven't.
Again I say, look at the careers of McG and Adams and compare them honestly to almost any other politican on this island.
Leaving aside the everyday political compromises that have to be made in a democracy, who wins in the integrity stakes or in the holding to specific and clear beliefs and who hasn't put personal gain or indeed safety in front of those core principles?

K-9 · 03-05-2012 11:56am

Happyman42 wrote: »

You have to earn trust and members of that organisation certainly haven't.
Again I say, look at the careers of McG and Adams and compare them honestly to almost any other politican on this island.
Leaving aside the everyday political compromises that have to be made in a democracy, who wins in the integrity stakes or in the holding to specific and clear beliefs and who hasn't put personal gain or indeed safety in front of those core principles?

Is it the British part or the intelligence officer part that irks you?

There's a double standard going on. People believe an RUC man who was convicted of murder and AFAIK accepts that and was involved in the intelligence war, just like the intelligence officer. Goes back to the point I made earlier, there were decent RUC officers, as there were good intelligence officers.

As for integrity, holding specific beliefs etc. very subjective.

Happyman42 · 03-05-2012 12:30pm

K-9 wrote: »

Is it the British part or the intelligence officer part that irks you?

There's a double standard going on. People believe an RUC man who was convicted of murder and AFAIK accepts that and was involved in the intelligence war, just like the intelligence officer. Goes back to the point I made earlier, there were decent RUC officers, as there were good intelligence officers.

As for integrity, holding specific beliefs etc. very subjective.

You neatly sidestepped the question with glib assumptions (that Republicans can't objectively assess what they are being presented with) and coarse interpretations (there is nothing subjective in a cold honest comparison of political careers) again. Not to mention the trite jibe (that anything with the word British is anathema to Republicans):rolleyes:

K-9 · 03-05-2012 2:02pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

You neatly sidestepped the question with glib assumptions (that Republicans can't objectively assess what they are being presented with) and coarse interpretations (there is nothing subjective in a cold honest comparison of political careers) again. Not to mention the trite jibe (that anything with the word British is anathema to Republicans):rolleyes:

It is subjective, you obviously rate Adams and McGuinness highly, I don't see that much difference to other politicians. That's fair enough, no problem with that. One mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter, I'd be more just because somebody is prepared to die for a cause doesn't necessarily mean the cause is just.

You selectively quoted:

British intelligence officer

as significant. I didn't. I just asked why you see it as so significant.

Border-Rat · 03-05-2012 2:05pm

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

10 times getting stopped in 3 years driving is a fair bit.
Are you seriously saying that the RUC/PSNI have not changed in any way?
How many people have they murdered? When did you last see a PSNI man beating people in the street?

REPUBLICAN NETWORK FOR UNITY (RNU) Spokesperson, MARTINÓG MEEHAN has slammed the brutal beating of an Armagh man last Friday night (9/3/12) by the unchanged RUC.

The young man had just left a local Bar in the city, when he was grabbed by an RUC/PSNI Patrol and beaten. He was forcibly trailed into an armoured Land-Rover and driven to a wooded area, close to the Barracks. Where he was again beaten and threatened; ‘not to report his ‘arrest’ or it would be worse on him, next time’.

Another RUC/PSNI thug told also said; ‘if I see you again, we’ll put a plastic bag over your head and you’ll be shot and left in the woods’.

The terrified man reported the assault and threats to RNU, who advised him to inform his family and seek legal advise.

RNU ask the Nationalist and Republican community in North Armagh and beyond to be vigilant against these attacks. Political Policing remains the main focus of the RUC/PSNI. Different Name -Same Aim!

This type of thing is not isolated.

Don't get me wrong, I know that they are not a normal police force but it is crazy to say that you don't see any difference.

You said they are "99%" a normal Police Force.

Border-Rat · 03-05-2012 2:07pm

K-9 wrote: »

Well, personally I think that is because you believe what you want to believe, which puts Adams and McGuinness on a high pedestal. For cases like this thread, Republican posters take the word of a suspect RUC officer involved in dirty dealings but then refuse to accept the word of a British intelligence officer involved in the same stuff. I'm just too cynical these days!

Yes, I mean what sort of nut would 'refuse to accept the word of British intelligence!'

Madness. lol.

Border-Rat · 03-05-2012 2:09pm

K-9 wrote: »

It is subjective, you obviously rate Adams and McGuinness highly, I don't see that much difference to other politicians. That's fair enough, no problem with that. One mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter, I'd be more just because somebody is prepared to die for a cause doesn't necessarily mean the cause is just.

You selectively quoted:

as significant. I didn't. I just asked why you see it as so significant.

So defending the Bogside was an unjust cause? And who said Southern Unionists were any less adamant?

Happyman42 · 03-05-2012 2:15pm

K-9 wrote: »

It is subjective, you obviously rate Adams and McGuinness highly, I don't see that much difference to other politicians. That's fair enough, no problem with that. One mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter, I'd be more just because somebody is prepared to die for a cause doesn't necessarily mean the cause is just.

I didn't ask you to judge the cause, I asked you to judge their integrity in relation to what they have been saying and doing for 30 years. You can do that objectively if you try.

You selectively quoted:

as significant. I didn't. I just asked why you see it as so significant.

British intelligence shenanagins on this island for the most of the last century might have had something to do with my selection.

and BTW you 'selectively' brought Bertie into the discussion to make a cheap shot and now evade making a real comparison.

fasttalkerchat · 03-05-2012 2:18pm

Border-Rat wrote: »

You said they are "99%" a normal Police Force.

I said that they don't behave the same way 99% of the time. I'm 21 years old and have never been assaulted, arrested or verbally abused by the PSNI. For my parents generation it had happened several times to each of them by the time they reached my age.
I know of that incident in Armagh and several similar things. Years ago they were daily occurances. Maybe because their are fewer republicans their are fewer incidences like this or maybe there are fewer thugs in uniform in the "police force" nowadays.

Border-Rat · 03-05-2012 2:21pm

British intelligence murder one of their own codebreakers and put him in a sportsbag with corrosive acid, then deny any involvement despite outrage from the victims family.

Now, if this headline was involved a member of Sinn Fein, the likes of K-9, the most impartial of moderators, would be having a field-day in this thread.

Border-Rat · 03-05-2012 2:29pm

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I said that they don't behave the same way 99% of the time. I'm 21 years old and have never been assaulted, arrested or verbally abused by the PSNI. For my parents generation it had happened several times to each of them by the time they reached my age.
I know of that incident in Armagh and several similar things. Years ago they were daily occurances. Maybe because their are fewer republicans their are fewer incidences like this or maybe there are fewer thugs in uniform in the "police force" nowadays.

The incidents have decreased, especially in the North West. I was only taking issue with your 99% figure. Most aggression I have gotten from the PSNI in the past few years has been from men with Southern accents. Several with a FG-West-Brit chip on their shoulders. A good way to fill Catholic quota's.

Anyway, the PSNI must be taken over. Some Republicans, secretly, desire discontent. They're too stupid to see that winning the PSNI will only speed up an end to partition. IMO they Orange contingent in the PSNI know this too, which is why they're worse in the Antrim areas with Catholics, they're formenting discontent to avoid normalisation. But really they can't stop the inevitable. Eventually the PSNI will be a glorified mirror of the Gardai.

K-9 · 03-05-2012 2:33pm

Border-Rat wrote: »

Yes, I mean what sort of nut would 'refuse to accept the word of British intelligence!'

Madness. lol.

We'll see if the judge accepts his word. That was your test on the RUC officer convicted of murder, wasn't it?

It is funny though that British intelligence can be accepted when the evidence suits!

Border-Rat wrote: »

So defending the Bogside was an unjust cause? And who said Southern Unionists were any less adamant?

Never mentioned either, did mention it is subjective. Bogside was just but the Bogside wasn't the only event that happened. Southern Unioinists? I don't think you are getting the concept.

If I think one side isn't necessarily just it therefor follows that I don't think much of the side defending it either! I love the jumping to conclusions on these threads.

Happyman42 wrote: »

I didn't ask you to judge the cause, I asked you to judge their integrity in relation to what they have been saying and doing for 30 years. You can do that objectively if you try.

Well not really the subject of the thread. There are many who would doubt their integrity and point to double standards. I think they did the right thing eventually.

British intelligence shenanagins on this island for the most of the last century might have had something to do with my selection.

Indeed. Another vested interest to be wrote off because the narrative doesn't suit. McGuinness has the highest integrity after all.

and BTW you 'selectively' brought Bertie into the discussion to make a cheap shot and now evade making a real comparison.

It wasn't a cheap shot. Politicians lie or are economical with the truth. Bertie is obviously a high profile example. I don't believe McGuinness is immune to that.

Border-Rat · 03-05-2012 2:43pm

K-9 wrote: »

We'll see if the judge accepts his word. That was your test on the RUC officer convicted of murder, wasn't it?

Care to back up this allegation?

It is funny though that British intelligence can be accepted when the evidence suits!

When have I done this?

Southern Unioinists? I don't think you are getting the concept.

You deemed the 'cause' unjust. Now you're backtracking.

If I think one side isn't necessarily just it therefor follows that I don't think much of the side defending it either! I love the jumping to conclusions on these threads.

Typically, anyone from Ireland who supports the Downing St viewpoint re: The Troubles is a Unionist. So no, it appears you don't get the concept. Kudos on making it this far without ambiguous infractions though.

You've just backtracked on the Bogside.

Happyman42 · 03-05-2012 3:33pm

K-9 wrote: »

Well not really the subject of the thread. There are many who would doubt their integrity and point to double standards. I think they did the right thing eventually.

Says he that dragged it off topic in the first place. :rolleyes: But sure if the issue has to be avoided.....

Indeed. Another vested interest to be wrote off because the narrative doesn't suit. McGuinness has the highest integrity after all.

Absolutely not....I don't trust his testimony or anybody from British Intelligence. That's the price you pay for messing with the truth on previous occaisions.

It wasn't a cheap shot. Politicians lie or are economical with the truth. Bertie is obviously a high profile example. I don't believe McGuinness is immune to that.

Bertie did more than lie, he destroyed the country for the personal gain of him and his cronies.
McGuinness, whether you agree with his methods, has created much better human rights for his supporters and for all on this island (even if they are too blind to see it)

snafuk35 · 03-05-2012 4:34pm

Anyway the priority is to defuse the sectarianism and hatred that is still prevalent since the end of the Troubles, get cross community support for law and order, defeat viglantes who are still involved in punishment beatings (no matter how deserving some of the victims might be a police force and justice system exists) and put bigots and extremists on the run - whether they are dissident loyalists or dissident republicans.
McGuinness and Adams have no been prepared to come fully clean on their more than shady pasts but I trust that they are now totally behind normal peaceful democratic government. Northern Ireland has a hell of a way to go yet before a United Ireland can begin to be considered.
The sooner the generation on both sides who were directing the troubles are gone and a new generation of politicians and leaders replace them the better.

Allegation McGuinness ordered RUC assassinations

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