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Ireland to go down the Electric car route?

12346

Comments

  • #252
    alex73
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭alex73


    Was thinking of get an Electric car for town use (given the Greens 5K grant) But the Nissan Leaf cost 30K!!! even after the grant..

    Come on... electric cars my arse, and with car finance standing at over 10% apr I would be paying 250 euros a month interests alone on the car lone.

    If the Greens really wanted people to go for the electric car then they would have to make them more affordable, maybe with tax breaks and grants


  • #253
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    LIGHTNING wrote: »
    Using your analogy, imagine if somebody said the following to you today:

    "Forget your mobile phone we can give you an alternative

    that costs 3-4 times the amount,

    Happens all the time with new phones but anyone with sense waits for prices to drop or a cheaper alternative from a competitor - market economics and all that..
    does less

    Faster acceleration, less moving parts to service, cheaper to run...
    takes a day to to charge and can only be used in certain areas that your current phone works in. So do you want to swap?"

    Lots of people buy iPhones :)

    I'm not going to go over the charge times and ESB map again:confused:
    What would you tell them to do with their alternative? I can only imagine but I cant post it on this thread! Thats the situation the electric cars are in

    It will be a long time before I can afford one but I like the idea and would love one of these: http://www.rsportscars.com/tesla/2013-tesla-model-s/


  • #254
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    LIGHTNING wrote: »
    How many go around with 4 litres in their cars? Lets be realistic, the extra fuel cannot be recovered but whats your point?

    How many cars can drive 160Km on just 4 litres?

    The point was that the battery can be recycled, i.e. a good proportion of the energy used during manufacture can be recovered and the battery results in less energy use during the car life.
    Even if you get a electric what percentage of electric energy in generated by renewable sources? If its oil/gas/coal you can knock a considerable amount from the 79% efficiency.

    Discussed this already - given the same fuel, a power station will generate power a lot more efficiently than 1000s of ICEs


  • #255
    alex73
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭alex73


    LIGHTNING wrote: »
    Faster acceleration true enough, less moving parts to service but will need to be brought to a specialist, good luck bring a leaf to an indy. Cheaper to run I dont agree, look at the price of a Fiesta and a Leaf and see the difference thats a lot of petrol you could buy.

    You can post ESB maps all you want but they arent everywhere unlike petrol stations and the long charge times are still an issue.

    Exactly the Price of Leaf is 35K (30k for first 2000 customers due to the grant)

    30K for a car like the leaf is a lot of money for Middle Ireland.


  • #256
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    LIGHTNING wrote: »
    Faster acceleration true enough, less moving parts to service but will need to be brought to a specialist, good luck bring a leaf to an indy.

    There were a lot more farriers than mechanics in 1908 but if there's a demand to be met...
    Cheaper to run I dont agree, look at the price of a Fiesta and a Leaf and see the difference thats a lot of petrol you could buy.

    I meant just running costs - A BMW 5 series diesel costs more than lots of smaller petrol cars but still costs less to tax and keep the tank filled.
    You can post ESB maps all you want but they arent everywhere unlike petrol stations and the long charge times are still an issue.

    Petrol stations will have them too (some do already), as I said earlier - supply and demand.


  • #257
    Bucklesman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 636 ✭✭✭Bucklesman


    LIGHTNING wrote: »
    You can post ESB maps all you want but they arent everywhere unlike petrol stations and the long charge times are still an issue.

    Long charge times and battery life don't necessarily have to be an issue. This setup has already had a pilot scheme in Tokyo.

    As for cost, the initial high price can be evened out with battery rental. That's what Renault are doing with their Fluence ZE. Says it will go on sale for $20k, which isn't all that shabby.


  • #258
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    LIGHTNING wrote: »
    You dont seem to be getting half my point, my initial point was that the Nissan Leaf has as much stored energy as 4 litres of petrol. I didnt say people were driving around with that in their tanks.

    Neither did I, I'm aware that the average petrol tank holds a lot more. My point was that the range of petrol car with a 4 litre tank would be a lot less than an EV, like the Leaf, with the equivalent battery capacity.

    The Tesla Model S (my original example) has a 70kWh battery, equivalent to 450km, and a 45 minute charge time.


  • #259
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    if you know you history then you know the first cars where electric, petrol won over,
    anyways so does that mean the whole economy and everyone with a "conventional" motor has to be penalised for decades with high taxes to subsidise the one way bet on electrics?

    I'm aware of that and the first Diesel engines were designed to run exclusively on peanut oil. If (fossil) oil wasn't so plentiful and cheap things would be a lot different now.
    actually it is since some of these rare earths are primarily used in car batteries and magnets for turbines

    That's a little is misleading. The same metals are used in all high performance motors and generators, and rechargeable batteries... think about it. At end of life, the metals can be easily recovered from these appliances, computers, phones, cars, or whatever and reused. (I know we don't actually recycle it here but that's another issue)

    We rely on oil and gas to produce plastics, fertiliser (and hence food), medicine, and many other necessities. If we burn it all then we can't get it back so easily so whatever we do burn should be burned efficiently.


  • #260
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    LIGHTNING wrote: »
    Competely irrelevant as cars dont have 4 litre tanks if they did you would have a point.

    That was just an example to compare fuel economy on a like for like basis. I'm well aware of the advantages of liquid fuel..

    Continuing my example 55 litres of diesel will do 1200km ( 4.5l/ 100km), that would require a 180kW battery in the Leaf (30 litre equivalent). But battery technology is improving fast - Nissan Leaf 24kW, Tesla S 70kW, ....
    The Tesla S if it comes over to the UK and Ireland will cost Id say close to 80k.

    Maybe, but there will be competition..


  • #261
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    LIGHTNING wrote: »
    The large battery pack in the Tesla S weighs 540kg`s over half the weight of my current car in my drive. Thats 8000 cells that have to made, its also a very large weight to be located in the rear of the car.

    Now just for the record I do like the idea of the electric car and I love electronics. I build RC planes and cars so I am not some old fashioned stick in the mud Petrol head :)

    Likewise, I'm interested in electric cars because they're something new as much as anything else! I'm very tired of the Jeremy Clarkson attitude to anything new or different - going as far as faking tests to prove his point. Even worse the numbtys who lap it up.

    The Tesla design details look amazing, comparing with other cars I don't know how they can build it for $50k.

    The battery actually weighs 1735kg (got that wrong earlier, this is the car's entire weight), considering that the 480km range is incredible. They designed the car around the batter which is fitted under the floor where the extra weight helps to improve ride and handling.

    http://www.teslamotors.com/models/technology


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  • #262
    woodyg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭woodyg


    http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/performance.aspx

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AUurBnLbJw


    the Tesla no doubts is a very good bit of engineering but still has 2 major draw backs weight and re-charge time.


  • #263
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    woodyg wrote: »
    http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/performance.aspx

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AUurBnLbJw

    the Tesla no doubts is a very good bit of engineering but still has 2 major draw backs weight and re-charge time.

    They're both very interesting cars.. (I got the battery weight wrong earlier - that was for the whole car!)

    The pub has dulled my brain but here's a quick summary:


    Purchase Price

    Tesla Type S: $50k
    Honda Clarity: $160,000 (lease @ $600pm)

    Performance

    Tesla: Top speed 120mph; 0-60 5.6 sec.
    Honda: Top speed 100mph; 0-60 10 sec.

    Total weight

    Tesla Type S: 1735kg
    Honda Clarity: 1600kg

    Range

    Tesla: 480km (70kW battery)
    Honda: 480km (5kg H2 - 96km per kg)

    Cost to refuel

    Tesla: approx €6.00 (charge time 45 minutes)
    Honda: US$3 per kg = US$15 (equiv to 5 gallons of petrol in US, so multiply by about 3 to get Irish price :mad: )

    Tesla videos:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrtXXrRa5OI
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vvqj7egMZMI&feature=related


  • #264
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    I am sorry but these upfront prices are insane! I earn a nice average salary for myself but still would not spend more than my income on a car (actually the most I ever spend was 15K and that was stretching it), or get into debt for that matter

    We would need at least 10 years for a second-hand market to develop and prices to drop, battery charging and replacement to be addressed and the infrastructure (including competition amongst dealers for service) to develop.

    The only electric I seen for sale is the Leaf and while the fueling costs sound too good to be true, for the same price of 30K (first 2000 customers subsidised...) i could buy and park a nice and safe petrol car in my driveway such as a 5 liter 7 series (~6 years old), tax and insure it for few years and do several dozen thousand miles even with the ripoff petrol prices we have, and still have some change left.

    The likes of the Leaf need to comedown to 10-15K new, about the same price as new Micras before people start looking at them en masse.

    The TypeS needs to get into the under 25K bracket new.


  • #265
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    Completely agree, 12,000 was the most cash I ever spent on a car...

    I think prices will come down soon though. Nissan are early to market and don't have much competition right now but soon there will be more from Renault, Toyota, Mitsubishi, etc.

    I know I keep going on about the Tesla S but if they sell it here for the same price (€37k) then government incentives would place it in the same price level as the Leaf. If that happens then Nissan and the others will be forced to slash their prices..


  • #266
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,620 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Hector Mildew wrote: »
    You're right but things have moved on. Second and third generation biofuels (ethanol, biodiesel, and gas) are product from animal and plant waste/ byproducts as well as algae. Fuel can be produced from algae fed on sewage, treating our sh1t and cleaning polluted rivers and lakes.

    Absolutely all for that, good idea, maybe not quite a glamorous way of running a planet :D but whatever works and with the world population going the way it goes it looks like we will have no shortage of fuel!
    You can also use algae to produce hydrogen (don't write it off yet and in a hundred years we might need lots of it for fusion reactors), which is still a very useful and clean source of energy.
    I have to honestly say that if there was a cheap, reliable way of getting me to work other than fossil fuel, I'd take it.

    But keep this in mind: At some stage so many people will have gone green, that the government cannot make up the losses by loading taxes onto people with old fashioned IC vehicles.
    These billions will have to be made up and as soon as everyone has switched, expect to pay taxes as before, maybe electricity will go through the roof (no maybe about it), or vehicle tax on green vehicles will rise sharply.
    We only pay so much because of taxes and the state needs them, this idea of cheap motoring is only to lure us into parting with the old and in with the new and after that it's going to be business as usual, i.e. the motorist being a bottomless source of income to the state.
    But as long as it's better for the planet it's all good.
    Just no be under any illusions that there will be cheap and easy motoring ahead.
    No such thing as a free lunch.


  • #267
    jimmynokia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,467 ✭✭✭jimmynokia


    Hector Mildew wrote: »
    They're both very interesting cars.. (I got the battery weight wrong earlier - that was for the whole car!)

    The pub has dulled my brain but here's a quick summary:


    Purchase Price

    Tesla Type S: $50k
    Honda Clarity: $160,000 (lease @ $600pm)

    Performance

    Tesla: Top speed 120mph; 0-60 5.6 sec.
    Honda: Top speed 100mph; 0-60 10 sec.

    Total weight

    Tesla Type S: 1735kg
    Honda Clarity: 1600kg

    Range

    Tesla: 480km (70kW battery)
    Honda: 480km (5kg H2 - 96km per kg)

    Cost to refuel

    Tesla: approx €6.00 (charge time 45 minutes)
    Honda: US$3 per kg = US$15 (equiv to 5 gallons of petrol in US, so multiply by about 3 to get Irish price :mad: )

    Tesla videos:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrtXXrRa5OI
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vvqj7egMZMI&feature=related


    the ESB or subsequent providers will love electric car owners and like fuel will in turn look for price hike


  • #268
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    LIGHTNING wrote: »
    Your living in another world if you think its going to be 37k over here, it say it will be over double that.

    You're probably right, like everything else they'll more than likely just swap currency symbols and charge €50,000.

    Just had a look at the Nissan US website, and that's exactly what they did with the Leaf :rolleyes:

    However, prices will drop either due to competition or increased demand (remember how much LCD and Plasma TVs cost 5 years ago?)


  • #269
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    jimmynokia wrote: »
    the ESB or subsequent providers will love electric car owners and like fuel will in turn look for price hike

    That happens anyway - supply and demand. It could also provide opportunities to others (e.g. filling stations) to generate their own power and sell it for less (possibly using a wind turbine to charge batteries for exchange), who knows...


  • #270
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    2 reasons I wont buy an electric car any time soon
    The Alpina B7 Bi-Turbo
    wheels-BMW-Alpina-B7-blogSpan.jpg
    The Ford F250
    ford-f250.jpg

    when they come in electric and dont look like the electric version , then we'll talk , electric cars are nowhere near ready yet


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  • #271
    BULLER
    Registered Users Posts: 340 ✭✭BULLER


    jimmynokia wrote: »
    the ESB or subsequent providers will love electric car owners and like fuel will in turn look for price hike

    And how much you think that theyre going to hike it exactly?! A couple of cent a charge isnt very much now. We'd be talking marginal rises. The saving in car maintenance and dishing out 50 quid every week or 2 should definately ease the burden a little.
    Besides, its fair to say most electric cars would be charged at night when a lot of energy is actually wasted.


  • #272
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    2 reasons I wont buy an electric car any time soon
    The Alpina B7 Bi-Turbo
    wheels-BMW-Alpina-B7-blogSpan.jpg
    The Ford F250
    ford-f250.jpg

    when they come in electric and dont look like the electric version , then we'll talk , electric cars are nowhere near ready yet

    droools :o

    the F250 would be perfect for the **** country roads where in the last week more potholes have emerged, we have potholes in potholes :eek: here in Galway
    Hector Mildew wrote:
    1735kg (got that wrong earlier, this is the car's entire weight)
    dear lord I didn't realize those Teslas are so heavy, thats almost the weight of me x5


  • #273
    Seweryn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,487 ✭✭✭Seweryn


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    2 reasons I wont buy an electric car any time soon ....
    when they come in electric and dont look like the electric version , then we'll talk , electric cars are nowhere near ready yet
    There are a few very good looking and good to drive electric cars. I love this one...:

    sls-amg-e-cell.jpg


  • #274
    BULLER
    Registered Users Posts: 340 ✭✭BULLER


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    dear lord I didn't realize those Teslas are so heavy, thats almost the weight of me x5

    Thats the saloon model S, and dont most BMW 5 series weight the same?!




    Fisker Karma looks savage!

    800px-Fisker_Karma.JPG


  • #275
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    LIGHTNING wrote: »
    You keep talking about products that have aren't in the same situation as electric cars. Plasma TV`s were really expensive 5-7 years ago but you could buy a another type of TV (CRT,TFT,LCD) that did the exact same thing for alot less.

    :confused::confused:
    If they're sucessful then the price of electric cars will come down, as it did for plasma tvs. You can still buy a petrol or diesel car if you don't want an electric - or an LCD or (maybe) a CRT if you don't like plasma TVs...


  • #276
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    BULLER wrote: »
    Fisker Karma looks savage!

    800px-Fisker_Karma.JPG

    Thats what im talking about, they need to start designing cars that people want to drive, not letting the likes of homer simpson go mad designing cars :P like this one below

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtGp8Sha_mA


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  • #277
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Seweryn wrote: »
    There are a few very good looking and good to drive electric cars. I love this one...:

    I will agree with that, but 2 seater sports cars are not the hardest vehicles to make electric

    When they can make a heavy duty electric truck or large luxury/sports saloon that can carry 5 people and a rake of luggage at 150mph then the electric car is ready
    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    droools :o

    the F250 would be perfect for the **** country roads where in the last week more potholes have emerged, we have potholes in potholes :eek: here in Galway
    if they came in right hand drive and were easy to get parts for id be rolling round in one right now


  • #278
    gpjordanf1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 867 ✭✭✭gpjordanf1


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    When they can make a heavy duty electric truck or large luxury/sports saloon that can carry 5 people and a rake of luggage at 150mph then the electric car is ready

    Would be interested to know where in Ireland you can do this now? And its relevance to the electric car which has been ready since the mid 90's for main stream production?


  • #279
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    I will agree with that, but 2 seater sports cars are not the hardest vehicles to make electric

    When they can make a heavy duty electric truck or large luxury/sports saloon that can carry 5 people and a rake of luggage at 150mph then the electric car is ready

    This one?

    tesla-model-s-electric-sedan-front-main_w800.jpg

    http://www.rsportscars.com/tesla/2013-tesla-model-s/

    http://www.teslamotors.com/models/specs


  • #280
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Hector Mildew wrote: »
    This one?

    tesla-model-s-electric-sedan-front-main_w800.jpg

    http://www.rsportscars.com/tesla/2013-tesla-model-s/

    http://www.teslamotors.com/models/specs

    Theres no full specs on it yet so Ill wait, looks promising but Ill wait and see how it stacks up against the B7 in luxury, boot capacity , 0-60 , top speed, space etc.. when its on full release, theyre getting closer to the right idea though


  • #281
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    Theres no full specs on it yet so Ill wait, looks promising but Ill wait and see how it stacks up against the B7 in luxury, boot capacity , 0-60 , top speed, space etc.. when its on full release, theyre getting closer to the right idea though


    The links I posted have all that info:

    http://www.rsportscars.com/tesla/2013-tesla-model-s/

    http://www.teslamotors.com/models/specs

    Here's another with videos (bottom of page):
    http://www.wired.com/autopia/2011/01/tesla-wants-some-engineering-cred/


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  • #282
    robtri
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭robtri


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    When they can make a heavy duty electric truck or large luxury/sports saloon that can carry 5 people and a rake of luggage at 150mph then the electric car is ready
    why??? considering most petrol cars, probably around 90 percent cant carry 5 people and a rake of luggage at 150mph....
    does that mean all those petrol cars that cant do this are useless???


  • #283
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Hector Mildew wrote: »
    The links I posted have all that info:

    http://www.rsportscars.com/tesla/2013-tesla-model-s/

    http://www.teslamotors.com/models/specs

    Here's another with videos (bottom of page):
    http://www.wired.com/autopia/2011/01/tesla-wants-some-engineering-cred/

    no word on boot space in litres but the alpina is still faster, higher top speed, longer, heavier, RWD, (although the teslas awd option maybee a nice one) still promising though


  • #284
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    robtri wrote: »
    why??? considering most petrol cars, probably around 90 percent cant carry 5 people and a rake of luggage at 150mph....
    does that mean all those petrol cars that cant do this are useless???

    no it doesnt, it just means that electric cars arent for everyone and theyre still not better than ICE cars, jsut trying to balance this thread a little


  • #285
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    The problem with the Leaf and other electric cars is quite simply distance on a charge sucks donkey balls.

    People say, oh this will get better with time but it is useless now for most people. Even people that only occasionally want to go on a long distance journey would prefer to take their 30,000 car than have to leave it at home and take public transport.

    They are particularly screwed if they want to go to an area public transport doesn't service as in a scenic area as these areas are very unlikely to have a fast charge station at them and your not going to be able to ask for a jump charge of a friendly passer by.

    I was genuinely looking a getting the leaf as I'm looking to switch cars and held off until the prices and details were announced but it seems most of the negative press about it is completely accurate as it is also featured on Nissans website.


  • #286
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    no word on boot space in litres but the alpina is still faster, higher top speed, longer, heavier, RWD, (although the teslas awd option maybee a nice one) still promising though

    Total boot space is 821 litres - the engine bay is empty so storage front and back. The third link says enough space to "carry a mountain bike, a surfboard and a flat-screen TV simultaneously"


  • #287
    jerry.cunneen0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1 ✭jerry.cunneen0


    JimmyCrackCorn! wrote: »
    They just dont work well yet.

    Chicken and egg story.

    Need better technology and infrastructure to make them work, needs a massive take up to fund infrastructure and technology.
    BUT WHERE DOES THE HYDROGEN COME FROM


  • #288
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,620 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    jerry.cunneen0 wrote: »
    BUT WHERE DOES THE HYDROGEN COME FROM

    You can split water into oxygen and hydrogen via electricity and research is conducted using sunlight to do it directly. Also, algae can be used.
    With sunlight and algae you don't need to generate energy first, so the process uses very little energy in comparison.
    If sea water can be used, then we won't run out of fuel for a good while, considering the hydrogen gets combined with oxygen in the air to make water again.
    So you end up at square one, all the water you split up into oxygen and hydrogen ends up being water again.
    If this can be made to work it will simply be the most genius way of running a planet.
    In that case it won't even matter if it's not as energy efficient as other technologies, since your energy source is clean, free and replenishes itself.


  • #289
    jaybee747
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭jaybee747


    I would have no problem driving an electric motor, even looked into the Leaf but to be honest if the government want people driving electric motors they'd want to be more realistic with their grants,incentives etc.
    The Leaf is €30k after the goverment grant. I'd rather get a nice 2.0tdi for that money.If the Leaf was priced around €20k , i'd get one no bother.

    Also they'd need to sort more charging points across the country.


  • #290
    pajo1981
    Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭pajo1981


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    In that case it won't even matter if it's not as energy efficient as other technologies, since your energy source is clean, free and replenishes itself.

    Your source of energy is the sun and not water. Why not just use the sun to charge conventional batteries as opposed to generating hydrogen?


  • #291
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    As already mentioned the rare earths required for electrics/hybrids and the wind-generators are causing great pollution in places like china and yes killing and posioning people
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6946038.ece

    implementing proper environmental standards would only lead to the price of these to go up thru' the roof making for more expensive electrics etc.
    Hector Mildew wrote: »
    As already mentioned, this issue is not exclusive to renewable electricty generation or electric cars. The life expectancy of the device must be taken into account.

    China is buying up world reserves at an alarming rate and is only happy to recycle our only other source of these metals - dumped electronic and electrical equipment (especially phones and computers).

    Looks like we can say goodbye to cheap electric cars and most other electronic/ electrical goods for that matter - not good...


    http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/364498/rare-earth-shortage-poses-strategic-threat-to-uk

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11620933


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  • #292
    R.O.R
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,699 ✭✭✭✭R.O.R


    pajo1981 wrote: »
    Your source of energy is the sun and not water. Why not just use the sun to charge conventional batteries as opposed to generating hydrogen?

    Less weight in a Hydrogen Fuel Cell? Cheaper to transport Hydrogen? Less environmental impact producing hydrogen than the batteries?


  • #293
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    R.O.R wrote: »
    Less weight in a Hydrogen Fuel Cell? Cheaper to transport Hydrogen? Less environmental impact producing hydrogen than the batteries?

    Weight:

    Not much difference - compare two cars of similar range in this post: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70097958&postcount=279

    Cheaper to transport:

    Electricity - power lines versus compressed hydrogen tanks and transport to filling stations

    Environmental impact:

    Depends on how H2 produced and at what efficiency.

    While it's true that metals must be mined for car battery manufacture, the same applies for all batteries and hydrogen fuel cells.

    Also, I'm not sure if oil extraction or coal to oil production has any less env impact.

    Currently, batteries are a more efficient way to store power compared with using a fuel cell to make electricity from hydrogen. Also, to prevent overload, fuel cells charge a battery which feeds the motor.

    All of these have been discussed in detail earlier in this thread


  • #294
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,620 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Just make your own! :D
    http://periodictable.com/Stories/001.1/index.html

    and

    http://www.dangerouslaboratories.org/h2homesystem.pdf


  • #295
    R.O.R
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,699 ✭✭✭✭R.O.R


    Hector Mildew wrote: »
    Cheaper to transport:

    Electricity - power lines versus compressed hydrogen tanks and transport to filling stations

    I actually meant to transport around in the car itself. Rather than the huge number of batteries required to get a decent range, a hydrogen fuel cell is only about the same size as a normal fuel tank (that's my understanding, but I'm open to correction). I now know that you also require batteries as a buffer between the hydrogen and to power the car, but surely not in any number near a pure electric car?


  • #296
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,620 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    R.O.R wrote: »
    I actually meant to transport around in the car itself. Rather than the huge number of batteries required to get a decent range, a hydrogen fuel cell is only about the same size as a normal fuel tank (that's my understanding, but I'm open to correction). I now know that you also require batteries as a buffer between the hydrogen and to power the car, but surely not in any number near a pure electric car?

    Well, here's some info.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell_vehicle
    Shouldn't think it needs anything major in terms of batteries, if anything at all.
    Weight and recharging times are the two main drawbacks of battery powered cars.
    Should that be overcome, battery powered cars would have the massive advantage of largely available electrical infrastructure, charging points surely being easy enough to provide.
    Maybe a charging time of 20 mins would be realistic, but only if the range was better, so you won't have to stop every 20 mins.
    I'm sure both techs will have an application as well as biofuel and methane (that's sh*t) powered vehicles.
    The frustrating thing is that all of these technologies have been around for decades, even for over a century, but we just got hung up on oil and laziness and complacency took over.
    But that's human nature, never plan ahead, just deal with the catastrophe when it happens and will cost you more by a factor of 10.


  • #297
    pajo1981
    Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭pajo1981


    "Carbon nanotube electrodes dramatically increase lithium battery capacity

    MIT researchers have made an important step toward producing a lithium-ion battery that delivers up to 10 times the power per unit of weight.

    ...and doesn't seem to deteriorate at all as the battery is subjected to over a thousand charge-discharge cycles."

    http://www.gizmag.com/carbon-nanotube-electrodes-increase-lithium-battery-capacity/15716/

    I read somewhere else that the theoretical charge times on nano-tech batteries are orders of magnitude shorter than those of conventional batteries.

    As I said before, these batteries can be used in anything - hence the rate at which battery tech is moving.


  • #298
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    R.O.R wrote: »
    I actually meant to transport around in the car itself. Rather than the huge number of batteries required to get a decent range, a hydrogen fuel cell is only about the same size as a normal fuel tank (that's my understanding, but I'm open to correction). I now know that you also require batteries as a buffer between the hydrogen and to power the car, but surely not in any number near a pure electric car?

    It’s hard to find info about fuel cell weight/ performance. I read somewhere that Honda have reduced the weight of their latest fuel cell by nearly 200kg, but the article didn’t give the final weight...


    They look to be about the same size as an ICE:
    153.jpg



    I think buffer battery size would be dependant on motor demand and the generation capacity of the cell.

    It looks like future fuel cells will use Nano technology to improve efficiency (while minimising the amount of Platinum and Palladium catalyst required). The same technology is being used to improve Li-ion battery design for pure EVs [edit - pajo1981 got there before me, and more detail, in the previous post ] - hopefully competition will accelerate development and improvement of both leading to truly practical ICE alternatives.


  • #299
    old_aussie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭old_aussie


    This could be a better option(in the future)

    Sure to piss off the oil producers.

    http://www.flixxy.com/gm-hy-wire-concept-car.htm


  • #300
    kleefarr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,744 ✭✭✭kleefarr


    Yeah, hydrogen is the way to go in my opinion.
    Honda are way ahead in this department. Although that GM car looks much more adaptable. Cool.


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  • #301
    grafter12
    Registered Users Posts: 19 ✭grafter12


    This could be a better option(in the future)

    Sure to piss off the oil producers.

    http://www.flixxy.com/gm-hy-wire-concept-car.htm


    I saw that concept on a programme back in the late 80's called Tomorrow's World and thought it was a cool idea back then. I always wondered what happend to the idea and it's good to see they have been working away on it since then.


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