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Ireland to go down the Electric car route?

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    #212
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    They manage in US and other countries somehow and have cheaper insurance and plate taxes, and what little tax is charged actually goes onto making/maintaining descent straight roads. imagine that!

    They don't rely on tax from drivers to fund their education and health systems.


    They can take my 4.4l v8 truck over my dead body :), would take alot more than 3eur to even consider electric (unless those teslas comedown by about 90K :D )

    The Model S prices reportedly start at $50K :)


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    #213
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Hector Mildew wrote: »
    The Model S prices reportedly start at $50K :)

    Still pricey :( and i wouldn't buy a new car (depreciate too quickly)

    god knows how expensive will the batteries be to replace few years down road in these electrics as they loose their charge, if they are anything like my laptop :P

    Actually the main problem with electrics I see is how the hell will people charge them in cities and especially housing estates, i can already see little ****s pulling cables or people "pluging in" into the neighours :eek:


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    #214
    MarkoC
    Registered Users Posts: 428 ✭✭MarkoC


    Hector Mildew wrote: »
    They don't rely on tax from drivers to fund their education and health systems.
    But they DO charge you a fortune if you need medical care ;)


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    #215
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    MarkoC wrote: »
    Do you image Cork-Dublin route, on a half way theres a charging station and 300 cars in a queue ? :D

    Good point, I think that's why renault are looking at a system which simply exchanges empty batteries with charged ones (a process which will take 10 minutes).


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    #216
    cianof
    Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭cianof


    DiffusionOfInnovation.png


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    #217
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    Still pricey :( and i wouldn't buy a new car (depreciate too quickly)

    Same here but will be on the lookout for a used one in a couple of years!
    god knows how expensive will the batteries be to replace few years down road in these electrics as they loose their charge, if they are anything like my laptop :P

    I was amazed at how much laptop batteries have improved when we got some new ones in work recently - 7 hours from fully charged whereas my own one never managed more than 2 when it was new.
    Actually the main problem with electrics I see is how the hell will people charge them in cities and especially housing estates, i can already see little ****s pulling cables or people "pluging in" into the neighours :eek:

    You need an electric fence ;)


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    #218
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    caseyann wrote: »
    It seems they do.
    I would love to see them get good tourism,but i would hate to see our beautiful Aran Islands modernized in some ways.

    they're looking to wave power which should have less impact.


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    #219
    madmac187
    Registered Users Posts: 652 ✭✭✭madmac187


    What people don't realise is the pollution that is caused by making these cars. I have also heard that the batteries are not recycleable like other batteries. Not to mention the pollution created by the electricity generation. Electric car = waste of time. Better off with more economic cars. Not to mention the fact that the car put on to the isle today looks like a piece of **** I scraped off my boot. WASTE OF TIME. A ten year old diesel car is more environmentally friendly than a hybrid aswell. Economic figures claimed are a farce, had a pious in america for 2 weeks. 23 miles to the gallon, what a joke.


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    #220
    MarkoC
    Registered Users Posts: 428 ✭✭MarkoC


    madmac187 wrote: »
    What people don't realise is the pollution that is caused by making these cars. I have also heard that the batteries are not recycleable like other batteries. Not to mention the pollution created by the electricity generation. Electric car = waste of time. Better off with more economic cars. Not to mention the fact that the car put on to the isle today looks like a piece of **** I scraped off my boot. WASTE OF TIME. A ten year old diesel car is more environmentally friendly than a hybrid aswell. Economic figures claimed are a farce, had a pious in america for 2 weeks. 23 miles to the gallon, what a joke.
    totally agree here ...


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    #221
    madmac187
    Registered Users Posts: 652 ✭✭✭madmac187


    MarkoC wrote: »
    totally agree here ...

    Thanks man, think about it like my old vectra 2000, 2.0 diesel does 50 miles to the gallon and now my old pairs one gets 60 miles to the gallon see its on the way I think.


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    #222
    woodyg
    Registered Users Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭woodyg


    LIGHTNING wrote: »
    No point linking articles from 2009, from that map I can only see a handful of actually installed points. I am not saying that we should switch to H powered cars over night but I think electric cars arent the way foward.

    i couldn't agree more on this!
    i really don't see why money is being thrown at the electric car when its pretty obvious that tech just wont cut the mustard when it comes to providing a car with a fuel source that will replace petrol\diesel and still be what we consider to be a car.

    That is a vehicle that goes from A to B covering the distance with out the need to pull over for 3hr+ to refuel. The polymer exchange membrane (hydrogen) based propulsion seems to be the answer for so many beneficial reasons.

    1) An end to a reliance on a resource that runs out in the next 15yrs or so
    2) A move to the most abundant element in the universe
    3) A move to a fuel source that is basically environmentally clean
    4) A vehicle that is fundamentally the same as what we perceive to be a car all ready, i.e. does 400-500 miles between refills which can be done at an existing station in less than 5 mins.
    5) The end to oil spills, deep sea drilling, war, man city.

    to put it simply imo electric tech has peaked all ready with the result being it just fails to deliver on what the world needs.

    think what a better economy Ireland would have if the government invested the money there wasting on electric autos in to Hydrogen generation, we could cut the oil dependency turning from an import society to an export society. Put a stop to our penalties for not meeting the co2 agreements set out.

    there's a lot of work to be done for hydrogen to be mass produced but if the same amount of effort\investment is put in to it as electric has gotten then it will be for the benefit of all.


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    #223
    cianof
    Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭cianof


    my old vectra 2000, 2.0 diesel does 50 miles to the gallon

    Ha! miles per gallon. :)

    Is that a US gallon or an Imperial gallon?

    What about kWh per km?


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    #224
    madmac187
    Registered Users Posts: 652 ✭✭✭madmac187


    How does kwh come into it???


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    #225
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    madmac187 wrote: »
    What people don't realise is the pollution that is caused by making these cars. I have also heard that the batteries are not recycleable like other batteries.

    80 to 90 percent of a vehicle's energy (including manufacture) is used during operation, see: http://www.pacinst.org/topics/integrity_of_science/case_studies/hummer_vs_prius.pdf
    Not to mention the pollution created by the electricity generation. Electric car = waste of time. Better off with more economic cars.

    It depends on how the electricity is generated. You should also compare the efficiency of burning fuel in many small engines versus a large power station.
    Not to mention the fact that the car put on to the isle today looks like a piece of **** I scraped off my boot.

    Agreed but take a look at this
    A ten year old diesel car is more environmentally friendly than a hybrid aswell. Economic figures claimed are a farce, had a pious in america for 2 weeks. 23 miles to the gallon, what a joke.

    But how would it compare with a 10 year old Prius (23mpg indicates a problem with your car, or driving like the clappers) or, more to the point, a 10 year old electric car?


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    #226
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    woodyg wrote: »
    i couldn't agree more on this!
    i really don't see why money is being thrown at the electric car when its pretty obvious that tech just wont cut the mustard when it comes to providing a car with a fuel source that will replace petrol\diesel and still be what we consider to be a car.

    That is a vehicle that goes from A to B covering the distance with out the need to pull over for 3hr+ to refuel. The polymer exchange membrane (hydrogen)
    to put it simply imo electric tech has peaked all ready with the result being it just fails to deliver on what the world needs.

    If it uses a fuel cell (including polymer exchange membrane cells) then it's an electric car. It stores its energy in a gas tank instead of a battery and the fuel cell converts it back to electricity. In any case fuel cell powered motors require a battery to act as a buffer between the fuel cell and electric motor.


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    #227
    cianof
    Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭cianof


    How does kwh come into it???

    The International System of Units (abbreviated SI from the French Système international d'unités)

    If we want to compare which is more efficient we need to use the same units of measurement to compare.

    An electric car for example will consume around 20 kwh of electricity to travel 50 miles.

    On urban night saver (esb rates)

    20 * 0.0745 = €1.49 per 50 mile

    1 US gallon = 3.78541178 litre
    1 Imperial gallon = 4.54609188 liters

    For your car @ 50 miles to the gallon:

    Diesel contains around 9.7 kWh per litre

    So for US gallon 3.78541178 * 9.7 = 36.7184943 kWh per 50 mile
    and imperial gallon 4.54609188 * 9.7 = 44.0970912 kWh per 50 mile

    How much did you say it cost you again to do 50 miles?


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    #228
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    madmac187 wrote: »
    What people don't realise is the pollution that is caused by making these cars.

    not just the cars, the wind generators need a 2-3 metric **** tons of rare earths which are far from clean


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    #229
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    not just the cars, the wind generators need a 2-3 metric **** tons of rare earths which are far from clean

    Not just wind generators but all generators, alternators, and every electronic device we use... If you're going down the 'green' road then better to use rare metals for renewable power generation, medical equipment, and other essentials rather than the disposable electronics we've come to depend on (mobile phones, laptops, game consoles, cars, etc.). That or recycle the stuff properly and prevent sh1t like this:

    a-chinese-child-sits-amongst-a.jpg

    http://greatest-blog.com/what-happens-when-your-computer-or-gadget-is-defunct-284/


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    #230
    R.O.R
    Registered Users Posts: 12,672 ✭✭✭✭R.O.R


    Slightly OT, but BBC breakfast news took an Electric Mini from London to Edinburg using only public charging points. I presume the Mini was modified by someone after it left the factory, as far as I'm aware, there's no electic Mini.

    It took 4 days to do the trip (one way) and they averaged 6 mp/h! A lot of the journey had to be done with the heaters off to preserve enough power to get to the next charge point.

    Not sure how the UK compares to Ireland for charge points, but I think it shows it's not a practical alternative to combustion, and probably never will be. There is a use for electric vehicles, and that's around the city. From a cost point of view, if they made an Electric Car with a 140km range that was safe and comfy enough, I'd seriously consider it. Could charge it in work and cut down on the €70 petrol bill. If I needed to go somewhere at the weekend then a rented petrol or diesel car would still work out cheaper than running an internal combustion vehicle for the whole year.


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    #231
    cianof
    Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭cianof


    Slightly biased report IMO

    ....the mini was a prototype.

    You don't have to use electric for your heating. Many electrics have fuel based heating systems.

    http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-20028567-48.html


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6laP1oYmc0


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    #232
    Joe 90
    Registered Users Posts: 889 ✭✭✭Joe 90


    cianof wrote: »
    Do you reckon that's a fair comparison....comparing the service costs of a €100,000 electric sports car costs with your petrol car?

    I reckon almost any car costing €100,000 will have a fairly expensive service cost.

    Sure battery electric cars don't/won't suite everyone. If they suite your driving pattern they can make a lot of sense.

    robtri, would you consider driving a hybrid.... or a plug in hybrid when they come out? :)
    Given that the original Tesla was based on the Elise you should compare the service costs of the Tesla with that of the Elise. A basic service, you know the usual oil, filters check everything over sort of thing is about £250, a major one including cam belt about £550ish. I'm quoting pounds sterling as I am in England, had an Elise for a couple of years and have had an Exige for the last 6 years.


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    #233
    Joe 90
    Registered Users Posts: 889 ✭✭✭Joe 90


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    Exactly. A G-wiz costs something like €10k. It shouldn't be very hard to build something more decent the size of a Micra for €15-20k. Add €2-3k government grant + incentives and you have an affordable replacement for the Micra.
    For most people the daily commute is no more than 30-40miles. Free charging at workplace + charging overnight at home should make a leccy car with even a 60-80miles range perfect for the daily commuter.

    No point spending millions trying to build powerful battery packs which can last for 200miles and electric motors which can do over 120mph. We already have petrol cars which can do that easily. We don't need high performance electric cars. What we need are replacements for the micras and polos and yaris and all those dreary hatchbacks people use to get from home to work and back.
    The problem with a G-wiz being in the order of 10k is that considered as a car it would be daylight robbery at 5k.


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    #234
    Joe 90
    Registered Users Posts: 889 ✭✭✭Joe 90


    cianof wrote: »
    The International System of Units (abbreviated SI from the French Système international d'unités)

    If we want to compare which is more efficient we need to use the same units of measurement to compare.

    An electric car for example will consume around 20 kwh of electricity to travel 50 miles.

    On urban night saver (esb rates)

    20 * 0.0745 = €1.49 per 50 mile

    1 US gallon = 3.78541178 litre
    1 Imperial gallon = 4.54609188 liters

    For your car @ 50 miles to the gallon:

    Diesel contains around 9.7 kWh per litre

    So for US gallon 3.78541178 * 9.7 = 36.7184943 kWh per 50 mile
    and imperial gallon 4.54609188 * 9.7 = 44.0970912 kWh per 50 mile

    How much did you say it cost you again to do 50 miles?
    An electric car for example will consume around 20 kwh of electricity to travel 50 miles. If I remember correctly ibhp is about 763 watts to our electric car needs to use about 26 bhp for an hour to travel the 50 miles. So we need 26 bhp to drive this car at 50mph. But its possible to design a car which will travel at 100mph on about 20bhp. As the power required is proportional to the square of the speed it should be possible to travel at 50 mph on something nearer 5bhp. I say nearer as the rolling resistance is not going to change like the air resistance.
    I would argue that the short term route to more efficient is a small car, say the frontal area of the original Issigonis Mini, reasonably well streamlined and weight no more tann 500-600kg. I think the original Mini weight in at about 600kg so given that a modern design would not have 400lbs of BMC A series and gearbox to contend with a lighter weight should be on the cards. Power it with one of the new sub 1000cc turbo diesels, preferably stiffed under the back seat. Light car, no engine in the front=no power sterring. Light car=no need for brake servos. It would be a practical affordable car with 40bhp or so and real fun with 120-150bhp.


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    #235
    ART6
    Registered Users Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭ART6


    I haven't read through all of this thread, so humble apologies if this has been said before -- but.... I would love to have an electric car that could comfortably do a couple of hundred kph with its heater, wipers, and headlights on, and do it for at least 600 km without charging. I would also need it to be able to re-charge in a couple of minutes at a pump charging station. I would prefer that I don't have to fork out substantial sums for a new battery pack at regular intervals, and that the battery packs don't weigh more than any conceivable passenger load. I don't mind if the electricity comes from wind turbines or from John Gormley's gas emissions.

    The problem that I have is that I am trying to run a company. My car is parked outside my house. My need for it is determined more by my customers and shareholders that by me. I never really know when I will need it. My customers and shareholders might not be impressed by my saying "I can't meet you at... because my car is charging".


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    #236
    cianof
    Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭cianof


    @Joe 90 That sounds like an interesting idea you have there. You'll still be constrained by the Carnot cycle and materials of the engine.

    @ART6 It would be great to have an electric car that could do all the things you mention there. The reality is that an electric car should be considered a tool for a job. Namely the standard daily commute. Its sounds like an electric car wouldn't be for you.

    TBH the topic and poll of this thread is bull****.
    The poll "An all Electric car Ireland?" and the thread title "Ireland to go down the Electric car route? ".

    "An all Electric car Ireland?" - thats not the plan. Just a small % of cars. Which is fine with me.


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    #237
    ART6
    Registered Users Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭ART6


    cianof wrote: »
    @ART6 It would be great to have an electric car that could do all the things you mention there. The reality is that an electric car should be considered a tool for a job. Namely the standard daily commute. Its sounds like an electric car wouldn't be for you..

    I agree entirely. Given the present state of technology it will never be more than a tool for the school run or a the daily trip to the office, but that is a small proportion of the transport needs. So, instead of wasting public funds on wind turbines and carbon taxes, perhaps we should be investing in alternative biofuels to the IC engine?


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    #238
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    ART6 wrote: »
    I agree entirely. Given the present state of technology it will never be more than a tool for the school run or a the daily trip to the office, but that is a small proportion of the transport needs. So, instead of wasting public funds on wind turbines and carbon taxes, perhaps we should be investing in alternative biofuels to the IC engine?

    Provided that it doesn't replace food, investment in biofuel production makes a lot of sense - especially as it works with the current infrastructure. Unfortunatley we seem to be going backwards on biofuels - I read that Maxol will stop selling their E85 petrol this year :confused: I don't know what the reasons are (lack of demand or high cost compared with regular petrol?) but its an indication that carbon taxes on fuel are not working.


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    #239
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Hector Mildew wrote: »
    Provided that it doesn't replace food, investment in biofuel production makes a lot of sense -

    Biofuel. This is what happened last time:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/jul/03/biofuels.renewableenergy
    I'm afraid I won't be driving a car that is killing children in third world countries.
    Conventional electric cars:
    Either ugly, slow, expensive with no range whatsoever and therefore not applicable for 99% of the population.
    Or they are, like the Tesla, somewhat faster and better to look at but I would have to sell my house for the downpayment on one of those things and the range is still crap.
    Hydrogen can be made for free using only sunlight and water and could be distributed using existing petrol stations, albeit with some modifications.
    Burning turf to power silly little noddy cars is going nowhere and only a band aid for people with beards and sandals who feel guilty about hurting mother earth.


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    #240
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    LIGHTNING wrote: »
    Put it another way, all the batteries in the New Nissan leaf contain about as much energy as 3-4 litres of petrol.

    So you will have to have:

    1)Large number of batteries
    2)Batteries that charge very quickly
    3)Swappable batteries that you can swap in for charged ones


    And then in the end when then batteries come to the end of their life you are left with 100kg`s of batteries that are a extremely difficult recycle.

    Interesting, I was looking at the info about one at the dealer last week (while looking at another car with my relative). It said 250 euro per year in electricity fees if used for 19000KM (sounds too good to be true)

    For same price I could buy a luxurious and very nice to drive :) ~5 year old 5l :P 7 series (the extra long one), tax and insure it for few years and do several dozen thousand M

    Electrics need to come a long way in price especially in second hand market which is nonexistent at moment (how much to replace batteries?). I am interested in the theoretical promise of fast acceleration and torque at switch of a button. More importantly charging needs to be addressed, ive no issue charging one behind my house in country but in city where the hell will the things be charged? the only charging point in galway i know of in woodquay always has the local residents cars parked in front of it.

    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    Biofuel. This is what happened last time:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/jul/03/biofuels.renewableenergy
    I'm afraid I won't be driving a car that is killing children in third world countries.
    Conventional electric cars:
    Either ugly, slow, expensive with no range whatsoever and therefore not applicable for 99% of the population.
    Or they are, like the Tesla, somewhat faster and better to look at but I would have to sell my house for the downpayment on one of those things and the range is still crap.
    Hydrogen can be made for free using only sunlight and water and could be distributed using existing petrol stations, albeit with some modifications.
    Burning turf to power silly little noddy cars is going nowhere and only a band aid for people with beards and sandals who feel guilty about hurting mother earth.

    As already mentioned the rare earths required for electrics/hybrids and the wind-generators are causing great pollution in places like china and yes killing and posioning people
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6946038.ece

    implementing proper environmental standards would only lead to the price of these to go up thru' the roof making for more expensive electrics etc


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    #241
    pajo1981
    Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭pajo1981


    [QUOTE=dr.fuzzenstein;70091596
    Hydrogen can be made for free using only sunlight and water and could be distributed using existing petrol stations, albeit with some modifications.
    Burning turf to power silly little noddy cars is going nowhere and only a band aid for people with beards and sandals who feel guilty about hurting mother earth.[/QUOTE]

    For the last time hydrogen cars ARE electric cars, just very inefficient ones.

    Battery capacities will improve over time and when that happens there will be NO reason to go fuel cell.

    Fuel cells are a dead-end tech, with many inherent disadvantages - let it go!


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