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Eircode - its implemetation (merged)

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12467…69

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    #92
    larchill
    Registered Users Posts: 371 ✭✭larchill


    Someone else making a few bob out of this :D


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    #93
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    €0.06 per lookup. It's hard to imagine anyone not being able to make a business case for paying that.


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    #94
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,344 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The problem i have with eircodes is finding the actual property.

    If you give me an Eircode for your address, I have to search for it on Eircode's site, then try and find the very same place on Google Maps, so that I can extract the coordinates to add it to my Garmin Satnav.

    It takes too long. The only time it's worth doing is if you live in the ass end of nowhere and there's nothing around you, or you don't have a full address (ie; detached rural house, for example). Otherwise it's just as quick to belt your address into Google Maps and get the coordinates straight away. Much simpler.

    Until Google Maps start accepting Eircodes, I don't see them as all that beneficial, to be completely honest. (which is sad, as Maps using Eircodes would make some aspects of my job much easier).


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    #95
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,403 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Deleted User wrote: »
    If you give me an Eircode for your address, I have to search for it on Eircode's site, then try and find the very same place on Google Maps, so that I can extract the coordinates to add it to my Garmin Satnav.
    In the interim, on your pc you can shrink the window down to mobile size and click "get directions", it will link to the location in Google Maps. The coordinates will be in the URL.


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    #96
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I'm still waiting for seanaway to explain why Eircodes are dead.

    They may not be dead, but they're not showing much signs of life. I've yet to come across any Irish business which requires me to provide my Eircode to conduct a transaction with them and indeed, most businesses don't seem to use them themselves.

    To take an example, here are the addresses of the three utility companies I have accounts with for my household, as published on their websites:
    • Vodafone Ireland Limited, Mountainview, Leopardstown, Dublin 18, Ireland
    • Irish Water, Colvill House, 24-26 Talbot Street, Dublin 1
    • Viridian Energy Limited, t/a Energia, Mill House, Ashtowngate, Navan Road, Dublin 15
    Not an Eircode to be seen . . .

    While you may find them helpful, it's clear most people and businesses see no particular benefit to using them. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've seen an Eircode on correspondence I've received since they were introduced.


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    #97
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    They may not be dead, but they're not showing much signs of life.
    They're not compulsory, so adoption was always going to be somewhat slow. But I'm not talking about slow adoption; I'm arguing against the contention that they're dead, for which I've yet to see any evidence.


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    #98
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    They're not compulsory, so adoption was always going to be somewhat slow. But I'm not talking about slow adoption; I'm arguing against the contention that they're dead, for which I've yet to see any evidence.

    Why would you adopt them? What use are they? They're meant to be postcodes and An Post appears to be largely ignoring them. In some cases, as we've seen, using Eircodes actually delays post.

    Many people would also suspect that a significant reason for their introduction is to make it easier to apply household-based charges like water, property tax, the proposed broadcasting charge, etc.

    Lastly, Eircode are being disingenuous on the privacy implications of the system of uniquely identifiying individual properties. They deny on the FAQ page of their website that they hold any personal data, which is completely contrary to the view of the Data Protection Commissioner. The Commissioner highlighted that no other country uses postcodes which uniquely identify houses.


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    #99
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    Why would you adopt them? What use are they? They're meant to be postcodes and An Post appears to be largely ignoring them. In some cases, as we've seen, using Eircodes actually delays post.......................

    they give an accurate location - what more do you need


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    #100
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    gctest50 wrote: »
    they give an accurate location and all the hard work is done for you

    Many freight and courier firms have said that Eircodes are completely unsuited to their needs and they won't bother with them. The general public couldn't easily use an Eircode to find an address - you can't put it into your satnav.

    Anyway, isn't a bit farcical to have spent all that money on a postcode system that our post office has no interest in?


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    #101
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    gizmo555 wrote: »

    Anyway, isn't a bit farcical to have spent all that money on a postcode system that our post office has no interest in?

    its not just a postcode it's an EIRCODE :)


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    #102
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    Why would you adopt them? What use are they?
    If you're a customer of mine, they allow me to provide a faster and more efficient service to you.

    Now, none of my customers realised that this was the case until it was explained to them. I'm sure they all thought the same as you: unless every citizen and company in the country was using them several times a day within hours of their introduction, they are clearly useless. Then, out of the blue, a real-world use for that hitherto pointless code appears.

    And that's how adoption happens: gradually. Most people aren't using them, because they don't need them. But then, over time, they find that some service providers can offer a more efficient service when they provide an Eircode; they find that more and more online retailers provide an Eircode field; they find in many cases that if they enter that field first, they don't have to type the rest of their address; eventually they can use it for turn-by-turn navigation (or they figure out that they already can)...

    It's a process. The ever-present idea seems to be that Eircodes are an utter failure because they didn't achieve 100% adoption within a week. That's not how it works.
    Many people would also suspect that a significant reason for their introduction is to make it easier to apply household-based charges like water, property tax, the proposed broadcasting charge, etc.
    Please, please tell me that you don't think tax evasion is a compelling reason not to adopt postcodes.
    Lastly, Eircode are being disingenuous on the privacy implications of the system of uniquely identifiying individual properties. They deny on the FAQ page of their website that they hold any personal data, which is completely contrary to the view of the Data Protection Commissioner. The Commissioner highlighted that no other country uses postcodes which uniquely identify houses.
    An Eircode has precisely the same privacy implications as a unique address. No more, no less.


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    #103
    El Gato Grande
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭El Gato Grande


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    They may not be dead, but they're not showing much signs of life. I've yet to come across any Irish business which requires me to provide my Eircode to conduct a transaction with them and indeed, most businesses don't seem to use them themselves.

    To take an example, here are the addresses of the three utility companies I have accounts with for my household, as published on their websites:
    • Vodafone Ireland Limited, Mountainview, Leopardstown, Dublin 18, Ireland
    • Irish Water, Colvill House, 24-26 Talbot Street, Dublin 1
    • Viridian Energy Limited, t/a Energia, Mill House, Ashtowngate, Navan Road, Dublin 15
    Not an Eircode to be seen . . .

    While you may find them helpful, it's clear most people and businesses see no particular benefit to using them. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've seen an Eircode on correspondence I've received since they were introduced.

    Enter Nenagh E45 into Google Maps and you can see there is something happening !


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    #104
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Originally Posted by seanaway View Post
    Eircode is DEAD end of...
    looking much healthier these days :

    https://www.google.cm/search?q=N37+P7D7

    people in Camaroon can find Athlone Town Football Club no problem

    .


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    #105
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    And that's how adoption happens: gradually.

    At the risk of repeating myself, it would be a start if An Post adopted it . . . it is meant to be a postcode system.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    eventually they can use it for turn-by-turn navigation (or they figure out that they already can)...

    What satnav systems currently provide turn-by-turn navigation from the direct input of an Eircode? I'm genuinely interested to know, because Google Maps doesn't, nor do the two other GPS devices that I own. This is something I would use if I could easily and without undue cost.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    An Eircode has precisely the same privacy implications as a unique address. No more, no less.

    That's precisely the point. A person's unique address is personal data, as is their Eircode. But Eircode denies this.


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    #106
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    .............

    What satnav systems currently provide turn-by-turn navigation from the direct input of an Eircode? I'm genuinely interested to know, because Google Maps doesn't, nor do the two other GPS devices that I own. This is something I would use if I could easily and without undue cost.

    .
    .
    http://www.gocode.ie/

    Download our free GO Code iPhone app to see how it works. They work on Tom Tom satnavs too.


    We’re the company that successfully brought together the winning consortium for the new National Postcode System for Ireland – Eircode. (see About Us section.)


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    #107
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    At the risk of repeating myself, it would be a start if An Post adopted it . . . it is meant to be a postcode system.
    It would help if they actively encouraged its use, yes. But An Post didn't want a postcode system that would hurt their dominant market position. It seems that a lot of people feel the same way.
    What satnav systems currently provide turn-by-turn navigation from the direct input of an Eircode?
    None. The Eircode website launches Google Maps if used on a phone.

    Nice "direct input" red herring, but that's not what I said.
    That's precisely the point. A person's unique address is personal data, as is their Eircode. But Eircode denies this.
    They do?


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    #108
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    Does your app work with Eircodes?


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    #109
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Nice "direct input" red herring, but that's not what I said.

    Not a red herring at all. I can get turn-by-turn navigation to anywhere in Britain or Northern Ireland by putting in just the postcode. And I don't need to be online with access to a website to do this. Eircode is broken by comparison.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    They do?

    Is my personal data held on the Eircode database?

    There is no personal data on the Eircode database or Eircode Finder. It does include business names, which in some cases can be the name of an individual, particularly for small businesses or sole traders.

    http://www.eircode.ie/faqs


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    #110
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    Not a red herring at all. I can get turn-by-turn navigation to anywhere in Britain or Northern Ireland by putting in just the postcode. And I don't need to be online with access to a website to do this. Eircode is broken by comparison.

    Let me break this down for you. I said: "...eventually they can use it for turn-by-turn navigation (or they figure out that they already can)..."

    This is a true statement. You can, right now, use Eircodes for turn-by turn navigation.

    You then changed the subject, and introduced a new qualifier: "What satnav systems currently provide turn-by-turn navigation from the direct input of an Eircode?"

    That, my friend, is what's known as a straw man. You are arguing against a claim I didn't make.
    Is my personal data held on the Eircode database?

    There is no personal data on the Eircode database or Eircode Finder. It does include business names, which in some cases can be the name of an individual, particularly for small businesses or sole traders.

    http://www.eircode.ie/faqs
    From the Data Protection Act:
    ..."personal data" means data relating to a living individual who is or can be identified either from the data or from the data in conjunction with other information that is in, or is likely to come into, the possession of the data controller...
    If I give you a randomly-chosen entry from the Eircode database, and no other data, can you identify a living individual from that information?


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    #111
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    TheChizler wrote: »
    In the interim, on your pc you can shrink the window down to mobile size and click "get directions", it will link to the location in Google Maps. The coordinates will be in the URL.

    To think you have to take unusual measures to get an Eircode app to work on a PC says a lot about the design of the whole system. Why can "Get Directions" not be available in full screen? It goes back to my point many moons ago about having to have a PC in your pocket if you want to use Eircode.


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    #112
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    You are arguing against a claim I didn't make.

    No, I'm making a claim of my own. The claim is that Eircode is not practical for use with satnavs and won't be until one can enter a code directly into the device and get directions, without having to be online at the time. You may be satisfied with the method you describe, I wouldn't be.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    From the Data Protection Act . . .

    If I give you a randomly-chosen entry from the Eircode database, and no other data, can you identify a living individual from that information?

    I'm very well aware of the definition of personal data. So is the Data Protection Commissioner. From her annual report for 2014:

    It is clear (particularly in light of the rate of single-occupancy households in Ireland) that the Eircode should be regarded as personal data, under the definition in the Data Protection Acts 1988 and 2003.

    While it is true that, on its own, Eircode is merely a unique identifier for an address and not a person, it is equally the case that in most contexts of its envisaged usage, a data controller will likely have additional information that would then allow identification of an individual person.

    Anyway, the bottom line is that there is little or no incentive for the public to use Eircodes. It's supposed to be a postcode system, but An Post all but ignore it. (Although at least they quote their own Eircode as part of their postal address on their home page, which is more than you do yourself!)


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    #113
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    No, I'm making a claim of my own.
    Well, you made it in the form of a question in response to a post of mine, so you can see where the confusion may have arisen.
    The claim is that Eircode is not practical for use with satnavs and won't be until one can enter a code directly into the device and get directions, without having to be online at the time. You may be satisfied with the method you describe, I wouldn't be.
    I didn't say I was satisfied; I said something that was true. You keep rephrasing it so you can argue with it, but none of your rephrasing will make what I said untrue.
    I'm very well aware of the definition of personal data. So is the Data Protection Commissioner. From her annual report for 2014:

    It is clear (particularly in light of the rate of single-occupancy households in Ireland) that the Eircode should be regarded as personal data, under the definition in the Data Protection Acts 1988 and 2003.

    While it is true that, on its own, Eircode is merely a unique identifier for an address and not a person, it is equally the case that in most contexts of its envisaged usage, a data controller will likely have additional information that would then allow identification of an individual person.
    That doesn't contradict Eircode's statement.

    As a registered data controller, I consider an Eircode to be part of an address, and as such personal data - but the Eircode database doesn't contain personally identifying information per se.
    Anyway, the bottom line is that there is little or no incentive for the public to use Eircodes. It's supposed to be a postcode system, but An Post all but ignore it. (Although at least they quote their own Eircode as part of their postal address on their home page, which is more than you do yourself!)
    Hah, I was wondering when that would be thrown in my face. :)

    We're in the middle of an office move. It doesn't make sense to put our old Eircode on the website; when the new address is finalised, the new Eircode will be on the website.


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    #114
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,344 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    TheChizler wrote: »
    In the interim, on your pc you can shrink the window down to mobile size and click "get directions", it will link to the location in Google Maps. The coordinates will be in the URL.


    How do you mean by shrink to mobile size? :confused: Maybe im taking you up wrong, but i've 'restored down' and fiddled about with the window size/aspect ratio etc but no new options appear?

    Can i view the mobile version of the site on my PC or something like that? Would be of help to get redirected to Maps with a location.


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    #115
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Deleted User wrote: »
    How do you mean by shrink to mobile size? :confused: Maybe im taking you up wrong, but i've 'restored down' and fiddled about with the window size/aspect ratio etc but no new options appear?

    Can i view the mobile version of the site on my PC or something like that? Would be of help to get redirected to Maps with a location.

    371308.png

    Resize the browser until it's as narrow as shown above, and the "Directions" button appears.


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    #116
    Bacchus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,699 ✭✭✭Bacchus


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    I'm very well aware of the definition of personal data.

    It doesn't seem that you are if you consider an address (without any personally identifiable information attached) to be personal data. Addresses are public domain. Names attached to addresses would make it PII.


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    #117
    GJG
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 158 ✭✭GJG


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    They may not be dead, but they're not showing much signs of life. I've yet to come across any Irish business which requires me to provide my Eircode to conduct a transaction with them and indeed, most businesses don't seem to use them themselves.

    To take an example, here are the addresses of the three utility companies I have accounts with for my household, as published on their websites:
    • Vodafone Ireland Limited, Mountainview, Leopardstown, Dublin 18, Ireland
    • Irish Water, Colvill House, 24-26 Talbot Street, Dublin 1
    • Viridian Energy Limited, t/a Energia, Mill House, Ashtowngate, Navan Road, Dublin 15
    Not an Eircode to be seen . . .

    While you may find them helpful, it's clear most people and businesses see no particular benefit to using them. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've seen an Eircode on correspondence I've received since they were introduced.

    So you are basing that conclusion on the fact that you are able to find three companies that don't list their Eircode online yet? I can find 17,000 in Dublin 1 alone that are listing it on their website. There may be some false positives in there, but also many omissions, I'm only counting websites where the Eircode immediately follows the word Dublin, and where a space is left between the D01 and the rest of the postcode.
    gizmo555 wrote: »
    Lastly, Eircode are being disingenuous on the privacy implications of the system of uniquely identifiying individual properties. They deny on the FAQ page of their website that they hold any personal data, which is completely contrary to the view of the Data Protection Commissioner. The Commissioner highlighted that no other country uses postcodes which uniquely identify houses.

    Eircodes are public information, just like any other part (or the whole) of your address. They allow the 40 per cent of addresses that were previously non-unique to be uniquely identified. If you (or the Data Protection Commissioner) think that has some unacceptable consequences, then you need to explain why those consequences are not already happening to the 60 per cent of addresses that were unique already; or to the 100 per cent of addresses in the north that are unique, or all those in almost every other developed country.

    The fact that Eircode alone can uniquely identify an address (rather than the postcode plus the house number as in the north) is immaterial. In either case, a short sequence of characters identify every property uniquely. Complaints about some mystery unacceptable consequences of unique addresses only arose after Eircode was introduced - it seems to me that it is just people casting around for any begrudgery they can find.
    gizmo555 wrote: »
    Many people would also suspect that a significant reason for their introduction is to make it easier to apply household-based charges like water, property tax, the proposed broadcasting charge, etc.

    Well, when you complaint is that Eircode will make tax evasion harder, you really are scraping the barrel.


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    #118
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    GJG wrote: »
    So you are basing that conclusion on the fact that you are able to find three companies that don't list their Eircode online yet?

    I pointed out that three of the biggest utility companies in the country (and Oscar) don't. That speaks for itself. Your search is near meaningless as a measure of Eircode use. For example, 1,680 or 10% of your results relate to a single Eircode, D02 HW77. (You searched on D02, not D01.)
    GJG wrote: »
    Eircodes are public information, just like any other part (or the whole) of your address. They allow the 40 per cent of addresses that were previously non-unique to be uniquely identified. If you (or the Data Protection Commissioner) think that has some unacceptable consequences, then you need to explain why those consequences are not already happening to the 60 per cent of addresses that were unique already; or to the 100 per cent of addresses in the north that are unique, or all those in almost every other developed country.

    The point is that Eircode deny on their website that they hold any personal data, not what the possible consequences are. Clearly they, you and Oscar know better than the Data Protection Commissioner.
    GJG wrote: »
    Well, when you complaint is that Eircode will make tax evasion harder, you really are scraping the barrel.

    I'm not complaining. I'm observing that if people perceive - rightly, in my view - that Eircodes will facilitate the easier imposition of taxes and charges, many will be much less likely to use them. So the slow adoption mentioned by Oscar will be slower still.

    And, yet again, I observe that this will make no difference to the postal service. So we're spending €27m at a time of unprecedented cutbacks in public spending to devise and implement a postcode which provides no benefit to users of the postal service. I'll leave it at that, because I'm getting bored with repeating myself.


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    #119
    Bacchus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,699 ✭✭✭Bacchus


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    The point is that Eircode deny on their website that they hold any personal data, not what the possible consequences are. Clearly they, you and Oscar know better than the Data Protection Commissioner.

    They don't hold any personal data though (as has been pointed out to you already). Personal data is something that can identify an individual. An address (without a name) does not do this. Addresses are in the public domain.

    I think you'll find the Data Protection Commissioner agrees with this so it's not a matter of that person "knowing better".


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    #120
    Bacchus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,699 ✭✭✭Bacchus


    Interesting, I had a read over the DPC report. Ok, I do disagree with them when they say in it "should" be considered personal data. It's also worth highlighting that they only say "should". It's a recommendation, not something that is put into law. So, Eircode do not break any law here.

    At best, an address or an eircode should be considered non-sensitive PII (as opposed to sensitive PII which should be protected). There probably are some considerations to take into account 'how' it is used internally at Eircode as sometimes the link between two pieces of non-sensitive PII can reveal some sensitive PII. There's nothing to suggest though that this is the case at Eircode.


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    #121
    GJG
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 158 ✭✭GJG


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    I pointed out that three of the biggest utility companies in the country (and Oscar) don't. That speaks for itself. Your search is near meaningless as a measure of Eircode use. For example, 1,680 or 10% of your results relate to a single Eircode, D02 HW77. (You searched on D02, not D01.)

    Um, no.

    I think you don't know how to use Google, if you don't understand why your search gives you the wrong answer of 1,680 instances of that code and this search which gives the correct answer of 24. Slight difference.
    gizmo555 wrote: »
    The point is that Eircode deny on their website that they hold any personal data, not what the possible consequences are. Clearly they, you and Oscar know better than the Data Protection Commissioner.

    Why is that the point? Why would a silly argument over semantics be more important than the actual, real-world consequences?
    gizmo555 wrote: »
    I'm not complaining. I'm observing that if people perceive - rightly, in my view - that Eircodes will facilitate the easier imposition of taxes and charges, many will be much less likely to use them. So the slow adoption mentioned by Oscar will be slower still.

    It facilitates the easier tackling of tax evasion. Imposing taxes is one thing, collecting them is what we are talking about. Are you aware of any evidence that the adoption of postcodes in other countries has been hampered by an attachment to tax evasion?

    Eliminating confusion and managing data efficiently benefits the whole of society, even if it catches out a few cheats and people who benefitted from that confusion and inefficiency. That provides a real economic benefit. It will take a few years to bed in, but at a stroke we have tackled a whole raft of problems. What are your constructive suggestions?


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