My Analysis of Irelands Railways.

sceptre wrote:

You've got a long reply above that answers a question in a rational way - do that with most of the replies and you might find more people willing to give something to your cause. Snide comments may make people think that it's a waste of time engaging with you. Up to you I suppose.

Fair enough, I assumed that the original post about the railways was a wind up and the guy was having a laugh. That was my mistake. It was only later I realised that he was serious and was just ignorant of rail transport (ignorant is not the same as stupid). That was a mistake and I am sorry for making that assumption. This is why I gave the more eh "prosaic" response in the follow-up when I relaised he was sincere.

The problem is that people say things like "the Western Rail Corridor should be reopened" and they are just repeating what they heard from somebody else. They do not know that there is nothing to reopen as there never was a WRC as such, just a collection of ramshakled, rural lines some most of them built to dreadful engineering standards that today is just mile after mile of crumbling embankments, collasping bridges thorugh the land of one-off houses and would not do anything to help transport if it was opened.

I know, I live next door to the WRC and the number of level crossings on it would make any kind of reasonble passenger service, both highly expensive to operate, reduce train speeds and actually increase traffic congestion at the level crossings in the West of Ireland. None of these things will do the overall image of rail transport any favours - certainly not for a minumum cost of €300 million. That would keep the next several generation of anti-rail heads going strong and they would be 100% right for a change.

The reason for this is that too many people do not make the distinction between the tracks and the services. A rail line with one or two trains a day is not a rail service - it is running a train for the sake of it and this is simply madness unless you are trainpotters who likes travelling over from the UK to take photos of empty trains against nice scenery. This is what is going on the Limerick - Rosslare line.

By cutting back the service to Clonmel on that you reduce the train traveling distance and in turn increase the train frequency and you develop a "service" which people will want to use because it is useful. This is why Platform11 asked that services on that line be reduced and reconfigured to a certain geographical region with a decent population base - because it would SAVE the line. The Strategic Rail Review suggested the entire line be closed down - Platform11 produced a compromise which could be sold to polticians and it is working. This is not "a pathetic approach to rail transport" as the poster said - this is the only realistic apporoch in this car obsessed, anti-public transport nation for saving regional rail lines as the NRA tarmacs the land.

On the subject of snide comments, Platform11 got that from day one from a huge percentage of the trainspotter community. Even when we tried to get them on board they had nothing good to say about us. I am not sure why, but that's is how they were - absolutely vicious towards us at times. And why? Because have worked our asses off for no money because we saw an under utilised infrastructure sitting idle next to congested roads and all we ever wanted to do was highlight this and have that fully utilised if possible?

We have a right wing Government in Ireland (and a very right wing media) who does not want to spend money on public transport except for brouchures and glossly election pamphlets and I believed that if we could make it seem like they were gettting a bargin by upgrading an exsisting infrastrcture for a few hundred million, they might invest in some public transport rather than looking for ways to not spend several billion on Metros which would be put off forever. We are 15 years behind on Platform for Change becuase the government does not want to something more than pay for maps and graphics and consultants reports. How many times have were been told "Metro to be announced next week" in the last 5 years. The fact is that they do not want to spend any money on rail unless they are forced into doing so by disgruntled communters on packed trains. DASH, Manooth Line upgrade etc.

The station being built at Spencer Dock and the refurbishment of the Phoenix Park tunnel route is due a lot to P11 - I had top polticians tell me so to my face. This will make life easier for thousands of commuters in Kildare. The Government were so impressed with us that they asked us to make a formal submission to the Airport Metro feasability study. We did, and they were very positive towards our suggestion on integrating the Metro with a DART extention at Glansevin Junction. They trainspotters continued to claim we were "discredited".

Until we have a Government which moves towards a more socially enlighted model and who is more public transport friendly, then this compromise angle is the only game you can play in this country were there is little money for public transport, and even less for rail. Bertie said "no Metro" a few weeks back. Nothing to do with us. But he might say "yes" to an expanded DART. This is were Platform11 comes in. Instead of nothing - we get something.

We made a few mistakes along the way sure, nobody in the history of Ireland had ever tried anything like this until P11 came along and there was, and is a learning curve, but I do believe that we are essentially doing the right thing for our country and the people who live in it. That does not include having rail investment channelled away from Dublin where is vitally needed and into Mayo where it would be "nice to have" as some people believe we shoud be doing.

MG wrote:

Originally Posted by Victor
"P11 Comms, I think part of the problem is Platform11's / your, at times aggressive style, that riles people up."

That badly needed to be said but just when you think P11 might take the opportunity to brush up their public relations, they dig themselves in deeper. The issue is whether, based on the perceptions generated by their PR, one feels that P11 and its principals have the abilities to advance the cause of rail in Ireland. I’ve made up my mind on that question and it sound like others have too………..

What I find amazing about trainspotter is that they will have no problem slagging off Platform11, but they go nuts if you mentioned to them that the ILDA strike a few years back was the main reason that railfreight in this country collasped and was the primary reason that Kingscourt and Foynes branches closed. Oh no, BAD BAD P11, putting down their heroes.

The rail unions themselves, or an element within the rail unions fatally damaged a real sector of the railways in this country by a summer of strikes. NEVER, will the trainspotters point the finger at the IE empolyees who did this. But they have no issue with having a go a P11 and CIE management and Seamus Brennan.

The last time a rail line was closed in Ireland was beaucse of the CIE unions - not P11, not Seamus Brennan and not CIE managment. Somebody tell that to the trainspotters who have decided that P11 is their anti-christ. The Foynes and Kingscourt lines were closed directly by the actions of ILDA which also resulted n a situation were companies dependent on the railfreight had to lay off workers. So much for worker solidarity! If anybody at the time was to dare say that is was some rail workers doing this, the Trainspotters would go mental. How dare anybody say a bad word about blessed train drivers.

When was the last time you heard of a rail union going on strike to save a railway line or sevice in Ireland like their counterparts have done in Poland and Bulgaria. And yet I have been scremed at by trainpotters for stating this fact and as if the CIE Unions are not to be critised as they are great guys, even when some of them go on strike at the drop of hat.

That also needs to be badly said as well.

“just when you think P11 might take the opportunity to brush up their public relations, they dig themselves in deeper.”

See above two P11 posts for classic examples – first a reasoned post which gives reason for hope, second an aggressive rant against the evil trainspotters.

"That is not the issue. By all means be upfront, in-your-face and insulting - but confine it to the people you trying to impact upon, not individuals whose opinion you disagree with."

I never got personal with anybody. There is no person called Mr Trainspotter. As for the lad that started this thread, I sincerly thought he was having a laugh, but I did not mean to slag him off for that at all, I complimented him for making me laugh. Ali-G is a comic genius. When I realised the man was serious I said I was sorry and gave him a proper answer. That was my mistake, not an attack on a person for having a different opinion.

As for what trainspotters think of Platform11, that not a issue to us. They were nowhere to be seen in the past when the Government shut down railway lines. Did they protest? Nah, they just saw it as an oppertunity to take photos on a farewell railfan trip. Then a group finally comes along who is determined to save rail and what do these people do, they either ignore, belittle, downplay our sucesses, or openly attack us. As yet, not one of the leading lights of the Irish trainspotter movement and many other I know by name have signed the petition to extend the Dart. But they have all the time in the world to criticise P11. Can anybody explain that one to me?

Right now, I am more upset by the the passing of Johnny Ramone. If he slagged off P11 on his deathbed I would be truly devastated.

"Indeed. I can't take P11 seriously, as they seem to go about (certainly on boards) with an attitude highly unsuited to what is supposed to be a professional pressure group."

Really, Tell that to these guys:

"Platform11’s proposals for a transfer station at Glasnevin Junction accommodating an underground Metro station are very interesting and clearly merit evaluation." - Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport

Now if you want see the alternative to us then look no further than this reasoned and logical approach to rail lobbying:

http://www.westontrack.com/news60.htm

Word of advice though, before you sign up and follow the trainspotters in fantasy railway oblivion, the Western Rail Corridor is dead in the water and is never going to be built to connect Sligo to Limerick for at least 25 years if ever, because there is no viable nor feasable reason for it. Platform11 told the Government so, and the Government agreed becuase they knew we were right and got the DoT to hurry up the reopening of the stragecically planned Midelton line in Cork instead. You can think whatever you like about us, the people who matter already made their mind up.

We just tell it like it is becuase they alternative "cream tea and cumpets" approach while pontificating about the merits Irish railways in a British Public School accent does not work and more than some professional West of Ireland Whinger screaming "sure they Jackeens have everything and we have nothing in the West!" while swinging rosary beads over your head.

Sorry, Platform11 don't play that.

Platform11 is the Irish rail lobby made up of regular Irish people who just want to be able to get a train to work and home joining us day by day, getting bigger, more powerful and influential and we have freinds in high places and corporate backers who think we are the dog's bollox* becuase they know not trying to pull the wool over anybodys eyes in order to get the tax payers to fund our hobby or line our pockets. Get used to it.

Perhaps not being a cute-hoor on the make is so un-natural to Irish people at this stage of our history, that when an honest and well meaning group like Platform11 comes along nobody can see it for what it is - a public advocacy group with no commerical or poltical hidden agenda. Ray Burke always had a smile on his face and polite language during his dealing I have been told...

Anybody can be nice - getting results is what matters. That's getting people to work and back on a properly integrated rail network and nothing else.

* "oh, he used naughty language like an unprofessional common person!" (just thought I save some of you the effort of posting this follow-up comment by doing it myself)

Yoda wrote:

What irritates me about this rhetoric is its dismissiveness. Whether or not the Western Rail Corridor should be re-opened, it is certainly reasonable to support the idea that a Western Rail Corridor should be opened. A ring connecting Sligo to Limerick would allow people greater access to, for instance, Shannon Airport as well as Knock (by feeder bus if not direct rail to the airports). It would allow tourists and residents to circle the island; it would allow sensible journey planning for anyone wanting to get anywhere. That everyone on the Sligo line has to go to Dublin to get to any of the other lines is shameful. That's not infrastructure. It's not planning. It's an accident of history and it should be corrected.

Parts of the WRC most certianly have potential, Ennis-Athenry as it would create a very nifty Galway-Ennis-Limerick commuter corridor and a potential customer base of hundreds of thousands. Absolutely that would work and is one of the shotest section to put back in service. The problem is the current efforts to reopen the WRC is that this section has be reduced to the level of an afterthough by West on Track. Here is a scan of page 12 of the reopening proposal is you do not believe me and also note how many time Knock Airport is mentioned in the list:

http://www.platform11.org/wrc_phases.jpg

Either this is blantant idiocy, trainspotter fantasy or some other local political/tacky religious souviners agenda at work here which has nothing to do with meaningful rail transport development in the West of Ireland. Or the forth option, that Platform11 are the real idiots and little rural railways realyl are the most important elements of our rail transport network.

But seriously, how could any "expert" study of the route reduce the most viable and important section to bottom of the agenda after the most underpopulated section is up and running! When Platform11 puled out of supporting this current effort to reopen the WRC we were totally validated and won a whole new group of supporters - it was the making of us an an organisation actually, and the fact that Brennan issued a press release as soon as the local election were over (within minutes actually) on how the WRC would have to prove itself, which was very similar to the P11 one, coupled with the fact that polticians have gone very cold to the idea proves that we were not only correct to do this - but we have made certain that if any part of the WRC is opened it'll be the southern section first. We are not going to say sorry for that to anybody. The catholic preist from WoT who called us sabateurs in the Mayo News correct. We sabotaged a bad idea which would have crucified the taxpayers of this country and done more to damage the image rail transport in Ireland by presenting an example to all the professional rail bashers as to why rail transport is a waste of money. If that makes Platform11 "discredited", "pathetic", Anti-West of Ireland" or "a joke of an organisation" to some people, then so be it.

The other bonus of reopening the Ennis-Athenry section of the WRC is that it would be easiest in terms of engineering and operations as it was built to a high standard and does not encounter the huge numbers of level crossing the section north of Tuam does (that section was built as a rural tramway) which would make a modern passenger service impossible and would create road traffic jams and not solve them.

Forget the section north of Athenry and spend money by making a real differnece by upgrading Galway Station and creating a commuter service around Galway/Oranmore instead which people will actually have a reason to use rather than "a nice wee day out on the train" now and again. We cannot view our rail network in this way anymore as this thinking of runing a train for the sake of it will not grow rail tranport.

Yoda wrote:

Platform 11 has some very good ideas about Dublin rail – but there's life outside the Commuter Pale yet.

We are a national oraganisation who wants good and meaningful rail services nationwide which people will use and not running an oul train or metro for the sake of it. If you read the following articles from our website you will find that you are incorrect in your asseration:

http://www.platform11.org/pr_029.html
http://www.platform11.org/gal_ennis_lim.html
http://www.platform11.org/west_direct.html
http://www.platform11.org/limerick_link.html
http://www.platform11.org/clon_dub_direct.html

Just because the Interconector is our main gig right now does not mean it is the only one. We have to go were the greatest demand is and this is just common sense - plus there are huge numbers of commuters in the GDR who are desparate for trains and want to use them, the grannies going to fill up their holy water bottles a few times a year on free travel passes will have to wait, let them use the bus like the do now.

We also challenged the WRC people to a honest and open public debate on how best to develop rail tranport in the West of Ireland (P11 believe that we have to increase the frequency on the exsisting lines in the West before we can begin to even think about reopening rural rail lines for commuter services). They never got back to us.

The WRC from Sligo to Limerick is never going to happen because there is no reason why it should. Sorry, but that's just the truth - but there is a real case for Ennis-Atherny and we would support this wholeheartly.

Regional development and social engineering is not Platform11 concern - we only do trains.