My Analysis of Irelands Railways.

It will not make money. Efficient transport must be seen as an essential public service and increasingly is so in more enlightened countries. Unfortunately the government here seem to think the opposite and therefore the likelihood of WRC (in full from Sligo to Cork) being implimented by them is virtually nil despite the wideranging benefits that would be achieved. Until the unpalatable truth that efficient rail must be subsidised is swallowed we are unlikely to see the development of an even half-decent rail service. Although the cost of the investment would be high the benefits in kind would outweigh the cost in the long-run.

Very Interesting. The Ali G approach to Irish rail transport development.

Connex run the Western Rail Corridor! Sure, there is millions to be made on grannies with free travel passes refilling their holy water bottles at Knock once every six months.

Cheers, best laugh I have had in ages.

GB Railfreight did not even wat to run freight trains in this country because the market was tiny and the piopulation base too small.

This is factually incorrect. GBRf is a very successful company and one of the fastest and most proactive freight operators around. They would not have looked at Ireland without doing its homework first. The company identified several business opportunities here and were keen to act on those opportunities. At that time Coillte were looking to return to rail having had their business refused a year earlier by IE. GBRf had serious discussions with Coillte and a number of other companies as well as a number of port operators which reached an advanced stage. Senior GBRf management made several trips to Dublin and had a number of meetings with the Minister and senior Department of Transport officals in an attempt to develop this further. However they were stymied in their attempts by the fact that they were required to deal directly with CIE/IE. You can imagine how helpful the monopoly operator was ! Funnily enough after GBRf threw up its hands in despair IE were once again interested in the Coillte and Norfolkline business and deals were done.

That's not a picture of a trainspotter at all. Where is the smug, self-satisfied halfwit grin than only 40 plus years of your mammy making your dinner can produce? Where is the cradle-to-grave semi-state job that his father got for him as he would never be capable of dressing up for an interview? Where is the anorak with the strings hanging off the sleeves and the 3 week old baked beans dried onto the front? The dead uncle's trousers from 1974? Where is the attention-seeking limp coupled with the hair pushed over to one side instead of being washed while smugly announcing that Seamus Brennan is evil becuase he did not save the Class 140 locomotives from being scrapped? The obsessive compulsive disorder to jot down the most pointless details regarding the dates of when a wheel was replaced on a timber wagon while declaring that "Platform11 are discredited!"?

That guy looks like he at least has half a chance of getting a woman. His fly is even zipped up for God sake!

Alright, so maybe they are not all like that. But the ones who are the most anti-P11 nearly always are and they were from day one even when we tried to reach out to them.

The normal ones (people interested in railways, rather than trainspotters) tend to support us as they realise that the purpose of a rail lobby is not to save the steam train turntable at Galway, keep the 171 Locomotive class going or writing love letters to trains drivers on the Internet. These lads are grand, the rest deserve all the contempt which the greater society has for them because you cannot get away from evolution and natural selection no matter how hard you try.

Thanks for signing the petiton thoes who have and for the rest of you could please do so if you have not already: www.extendthedart.com

sorry about the spam - I'll get the webmaster to check that out.

sceptre wrote:

You've got a long reply above that answers a question in a rational way - do that with most of the replies and you might find more people willing to give something to your cause. Snide comments may make people think that it's a waste of time engaging with you. Up to you I suppose.

Fair enough, I assumed that the original post about the railways was a wind up and the guy was having a laugh. That was my mistake. It was only later I realised that he was serious and was just ignorant of rail transport (ignorant is not the same as stupid). That was a mistake and I am sorry for making that assumption. This is why I gave the more eh "prosaic" response in the follow-up when I relaised he was sincere.

The problem is that people say things like "the Western Rail Corridor should be reopened" and they are just repeating what they heard from somebody else. They do not know that there is nothing to reopen as there never was a WRC as such, just a collection of ramshakled, rural lines some most of them built to dreadful engineering standards that today is just mile after mile of crumbling embankments, collasping bridges thorugh the land of one-off houses and would not do anything to help transport if it was opened.

I know, I live next door to the WRC and the number of level crossings on it would make any kind of reasonble passenger service, both highly expensive to operate, reduce train speeds and actually increase traffic congestion at the level crossings in the West of Ireland. None of these things will do the overall image of rail transport any favours - certainly not for a minumum cost of €300 million. That would keep the next several generation of anti-rail heads going strong and they would be 100% right for a change.

The reason for this is that too many people do not make the distinction between the tracks and the services. A rail line with one or two trains a day is not a rail service - it is running a train for the sake of it and this is simply madness unless you are trainpotters who likes travelling over from the UK to take photos of empty trains against nice scenery. This is what is going on the Limerick - Rosslare line.

By cutting back the service to Clonmel on that you reduce the train traveling distance and in turn increase the train frequency and you develop a "service" which people will want to use because it is useful. This is why Platform11 asked that services on that line be reduced and reconfigured to a certain geographical region with a decent population base - because it would SAVE the line. The Strategic Rail Review suggested the entire line be closed down - Platform11 produced a compromise which could be sold to polticians and it is working. This is not "a pathetic approach to rail transport" as the poster said - this is the only realistic apporoch in this car obsessed, anti-public transport nation for saving regional rail lines as the NRA tarmacs the land.

On the subject of snide comments, Platform11 got that from day one from a huge percentage of the trainspotter community. Even when we tried to get them on board they had nothing good to say about us. I am not sure why, but that's is how they were - absolutely vicious towards us at times. And why? Because have worked our asses off for no money because we saw an under utilised infrastructure sitting idle next to congested roads and all we ever wanted to do was highlight this and have that fully utilised if possible?

We have a right wing Government in Ireland (and a very right wing media) who does not want to spend money on public transport except for brouchures and glossly election pamphlets and I believed that if we could make it seem like they were gettting a bargin by upgrading an exsisting infrastrcture for a few hundred million, they might invest in some public transport rather than looking for ways to not spend several billion on Metros which would be put off forever. We are 15 years behind on Platform for Change becuase the government does not want to something more than pay for maps and graphics and consultants reports. How many times have were been told "Metro to be announced next week" in the last 5 years. The fact is that they do not want to spend any money on rail unless they are forced into doing so by disgruntled communters on packed trains. DASH, Manooth Line upgrade etc.

The station being built at Spencer Dock and the refurbishment of the Phoenix Park tunnel route is due a lot to P11 - I had top polticians tell me so to my face. This will make life easier for thousands of commuters in Kildare. The Government were so impressed with us that they asked us to make a formal submission to the Airport Metro feasability study. We did, and they were very positive towards our suggestion on integrating the Metro with a DART extention at Glansevin Junction. They trainspotters continued to claim we were "discredited".

Until we have a Government which moves towards a more socially enlighted model and who is more public transport friendly, then this compromise angle is the only game you can play in this country were there is little money for public transport, and even less for rail. Bertie said "no Metro" a few weeks back. Nothing to do with us. But he might say "yes" to an expanded DART. This is were Platform11 comes in. Instead of nothing - we get something.

We made a few mistakes along the way sure, nobody in the history of Ireland had ever tried anything like this until P11 came along and there was, and is a learning curve, but I do believe that we are essentially doing the right thing for our country and the people who live in it. That does not include having rail investment channelled away from Dublin where is vitally needed and into Mayo where it would be "nice to have" as some people believe we shoud be doing.

MG wrote:

Originally Posted by Victor
"P11 Comms, I think part of the problem is Platform11's / your, at times aggressive style, that riles people up."

That badly needed to be said but just when you think P11 might take the opportunity to brush up their public relations, they dig themselves in deeper. The issue is whether, based on the perceptions generated by their PR, one feels that P11 and its principals have the abilities to advance the cause of rail in Ireland. I’ve made up my mind on that question and it sound like others have too………..

What I find amazing about trainspotter is that they will have no problem slagging off Platform11, but they go nuts if you mentioned to them that the ILDA strike a few years back was the main reason that railfreight in this country collasped and was the primary reason that Kingscourt and Foynes branches closed. Oh no, BAD BAD P11, putting down their heroes.

The rail unions themselves, or an element within the rail unions fatally damaged a real sector of the railways in this country by a summer of strikes. NEVER, will the trainspotters point the finger at the IE empolyees who did this. But they have no issue with having a go a P11 and CIE management and Seamus Brennan.

The last time a rail line was closed in Ireland was beaucse of the CIE unions - not P11, not Seamus Brennan and not CIE managment. Somebody tell that to the trainspotters who have decided that P11 is their anti-christ. The Foynes and Kingscourt lines were closed directly by the actions of ILDA which also resulted n a situation were companies dependent on the railfreight had to lay off workers. So much for worker solidarity! If anybody at the time was to dare say that is was some rail workers doing this, the Trainspotters would go mental. How dare anybody say a bad word about blessed train drivers.

When was the last time you heard of a rail union going on strike to save a railway line or sevice in Ireland like their counterparts have done in Poland and Bulgaria. And yet I have been scremed at by trainpotters for stating this fact and as if the CIE Unions are not to be critised as they are great guys, even when some of them go on strike at the drop of hat.

That also needs to be badly said as well.

“just when you think P11 might take the opportunity to brush up their public relations, they dig themselves in deeper.”

See above two P11 posts for classic examples – first a reasoned post which gives reason for hope, second an aggressive rant against the evil trainspotters.

"That is not the issue. By all means be upfront, in-your-face and insulting - but confine it to the people you trying to impact upon, not individuals whose opinion you disagree with."

I never got personal with anybody. There is no person called Mr Trainspotter. As for the lad that started this thread, I sincerly thought he was having a laugh, but I did not mean to slag him off for that at all, I complimented him for making me laugh. Ali-G is a comic genius. When I realised the man was serious I said I was sorry and gave him a proper answer. That was my mistake, not an attack on a person for having a different opinion.

As for what trainspotters think of Platform11, that not a issue to us. They were nowhere to be seen in the past when the Government shut down railway lines. Did they protest? Nah, they just saw it as an oppertunity to take photos on a farewell railfan trip. Then a group finally comes along who is determined to save rail and what do these people do, they either ignore, belittle, downplay our sucesses, or openly attack us. As yet, not one of the leading lights of the Irish trainspotter movement and many other I know by name have signed the petition to extend the Dart. But they have all the time in the world to criticise P11. Can anybody explain that one to me?

Right now, I am more upset by the the passing of Johnny Ramone. If he slagged off P11 on his deathbed I would be truly devastated.