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My Analysis of Irelands Railways.

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  • 13-09-2004 6:41pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,558 ✭✭✭


    First off let me state that the purpose of this thread, is to try to discuss with others, the way Irish Rail runs our railways.

    Now in my opinion, Ireland is heading towards disaster. Our Cities, towns and villages are choked with traffic and the resulting pollution, Rail is part of the solution to this menacing problem. Ireland only has a tiny rail network, in proportion to our EU counterparts, Trains outside of Dublin are basically once every 3-4hours or Daily, This doesn’t represent the sort of service that could and should be made available to members of the public. At present Irish Rails Inter City service, is slow, cumbersome usually overcrowded and is a complete and total rip-off for an adult return fare.
    Take for instance other European countries like Switzerland, They have excellent services on all lines not just those between the Metropolises Like Cork and Dublin. Ireland could have a service 50% better than Switzerland as we don’t have the problem of flat ground being a rarity here. Basically what I’m trying to say is Irish Rail should scrap their express type trains, ie. those that must stop every where along the line, instead buy some new trains run 2 or 3 an hour and stop at every 2nd or 3rd station. Hey presto a better faster improved service. Now I will be chastised “why run so many, they are sure to be empty” they won’t be empty if ticket fares were slashed, and why do we need trains nearly a kilometre long ? run more trains about every 15 mins with between 3 and 6 carriages, less weight bearing down on the loco, less fuel would be used, faster speeds could be attained and with a smaller Train size, breakdowns would be less and maintenance costs would decrease.
    Also another point I’d like to make is why don’t Irish Rail but in second tracks where they are needed like the Portarlington to Athlone line anyway should be doubled up, it would allow more services to Galway and the west.

    About the western Rail corridor it is a disgrace to see it lying idle. I know it will cost up to €300 million to reopen, so here’s my plan let the Irish Government reopen it, but in place what needs to be done. Then let a private company like Connex operate the serivces, Irish rail could timetable it’s trains to match the connex trains at the interconnecting stations like Ennis and Athenry etc. So when an Ennis bound train would pull into Athenry station an Irish rail train bound for Galway or Dublin could pull in 5 or 10 mins Earlier/later to allow passengers to make use of the Services to the full extent and vice versa. Tickets could be purchased at any Irish Rail or WRC station for services across the Island North & South. A sample fare of say €20 adult return from Ennis to Galway could include a €5 tax on the fares to pay for the WRC reopening so €15 would got to connex and €5 to the Government. Irish Rail could also operate its trains on the WRC until this loan was repaid to the government. They could then compete with each other for passengers and freight on the line.

    The same set-up could be applied and used to re-open lines closed like the West-Clare Narrow gauge and the Navan line as well as several others.

    Such services on these new lines and revitalised service on existing line could help beat the gridlock on our roads would cut Co2 emissions big time and benefit everyone.

    Such services won’t work without 3 things,
    A) public- private partnership.
    B) Reduced fares, which equals more passengers = more profit than with original sky high fare.
    C) A will between trade unions and management to implement what is needed to make better changers for a brighter future for commuters and our rail network.

    Other ways to improve capacity, safety and speed would be to bring in double-decker carraiges such as those Amtrak use in the states. Also scrap traditional signalling and introduce GPS tracking on all trains and remote control over them in Emergencies from a central control room for the entire network. Remove those stupid 20mph speed limits through stations and let trains speed through if not stopping, it can take up to 5mins to pass through some stations which would take about 45seconds if not for those speed limits. Just keep people clear of all platforms until about 5mins before a train due to stop at the station pulls in.

    Well this is my analysis of the railways,
    I hope it can stir up some could discussion on the subjects raised.

    Regards netwhizkid.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,107 ✭✭✭John R


    1. Your sig is too big http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=60479
    2. while your analysis is terribly interesting it has one slight problem, you do not have a clue what you are talking about.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,827 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    netwhizkid wrote:
    Ireland could have a service 50% better than Switzerland as we don’t have the problem of flat ground being a rarity here.
    ..
    Tickets could be purchased at any Irish Rail or WRC station for services across the Island North & South. A sample fare of say €20 adult return from Ennis to Galway could include a €5 tax on the fares to pay for the WRC reopening so €15 would got to connex and €5 to the Government. Irish Rail could also operate its trains on the WRC until this loan was repaid to the government. They could then compete with each other for passengers and freight on the line.
    ...
    Such services won’t work without 3 things,
    A) public- private partnership.
    ...

    Other ways to improve capacity, safety and speed would be to bring in double-decker carraiges such as those Amtrak use in the states.
    Re Switzerland costs - due to political scams we have the highest cost for land for road building in the EU - that includes Holland who don't have any spare land and higher population density than we have.

    Tickets purchased anywhere on the island - try buying through tickets in the UK - it's a nightmare

    Private partnership - so far every PPP scheme I've seen in this country has involved a small private investment at a bottleneck, not the main scheme itself which carries you to the bottleneck. So in effect we the taxpayers subsidise the PPP shareholders, a case of the tail being able to wag the dog. It could work - but not unless we sort out the backhanders and imcompetance in contract negotiations.

    Reduced fares , yeah Dublin bus is about the only profit making social Bus service in the EU and most of the others get real subsidies. So if they won't support public transport in the capital city and spend 100's of millions on roads instead, what makes you think they'll support the railways.


    double decker carriges -bridges etc.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10 andyhunt


    It will not make money. Efficient transport must be seen as an essential public service and increasingly is so in more enlightened countries. Unfortunately the government here seem to think the opposite and therefore the likelihood of WRC (in full from Sligo to Cork) being implimented by them is virtually nil despite the wideranging benefits that would be achieved. Until the unpalatable truth that efficient rail must be subsidised is swallowed we are unlikely to see the development of an even half-decent rail service. Although the cost of the investment would be high the benefits in kind would outweigh the cost in the long-run.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭Genghis


    I've been using the train daily to make a 45 mile commute each way, and (while certain improvements could be made) I have got to say that Irish Rail offer an overall good service:

    Park and Ride - Check
    Punctuality, Departing - over 90%
    Punctuality, Arriving - approx 60% (:()
    Schedule to my station - five trains in 2 hrs out, five trains in 2 hrs back
    Cleanliness, etc - Usually excellent
    Breakdowns, etc, etc - probably twice in the last year
    Cancellations - maybe 4 times in the last year

    IMHO the Irish Rail service needs infrastructural investment - join the dots in Dublin; double rail capacity as far as Kildare, Maynooth, Arklow and Drogheda; remove all single lines where they exist; speed up intercity, and add more frequency to key destinations - Cork, Limerick, Waterford / Kilkenny, Galway and Belfast; better integration between Dart / Arrow, so that Intercitys do not need to stop anywhere inside Greater Dublin en route to their destinations.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭dmeehan


    Why do "InterCity" trains to Kerry stop at the sprawling metropolises of the likes of Banteer?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,312 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    the same reason "intercity" trains go to Kerry at all (pop. 132,527, 2002, CSO).

    By comparison Cork City census area alone is 123,062.

    That line should have shuttle service from Tralee to Mallow and Tralee-Farranfore Airport-Killarney and no more, but politics will keep the locos rolling...


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭dmeehan


    the shuttle service might actually be a better service than whats currently available

    god forbid people might have to change trains in mallow :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 629 ✭✭✭enterprise


    dmeehan wrote:
    Why do "InterCity" trains to Kerry stop at the sprawling metropolises of the likes of Banteer?


    Because Banteer is ONLY served by Heuston - Tralee and Cork - Tralee trains. Considering its on the Mallow - Tralee line WHAT ELSE IS GOING TO SERVE IT? (What a dumb question!)

    Plus Banteer offers a wide catchment area to the likes of Kanturk & Newmarket.


  • Registered Users Posts: 629 ✭✭✭enterprise


    dmeehan wrote:
    the shuttle service might actually be a better service than whats currently available

    god forbid people might have to change trains in mallow :rolleyes:


    http://www.irishrail.ie/news_centre/general_news.asp?action=view&news_id=46

    Dublin – Tralee
    Existing through services PLUS shuttle service every two hours Mallow-Tralee connecting with Cork service.

    IE do have major plans to upgrade the Kerry line in the coming years. Also I believe that the existing through services SHOULD BE RETAINED.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭dmeehan


    enterprise wrote:
    Because Banteer is ONLY served by Heuston - Tralee and Cork - Tralee trains. Considering its on the Mallow - Tralee line WHAT ELSE IS GOING TO SERVE IT? (What a dumb question!)

    Plus Banteer offers a wide catchment area to the likes of Kanturk & Newmarket.

    why cant a mallow - tralee shuttle serve it

    It was not a dumb question as others have thought it good enough to give good answers. The question I as asking was why do these kerry - dublin/cork trains have to stop in the middle of nowhere. surely this could be better served by a local service with connections at the main stations

    Also no need to shout!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 173 ✭✭P11 Comms


    Very Interesting. The Ali G approach to Irish rail transport development.

    Connex run the Western Rail Corridor! Sure, there is millions to be made on grannies with free travel passes refilling their holy water bottles at Knock once every six months.

    Cheers, best laugh I have had in ages.


  • Registered Users Posts: 629 ✭✭✭enterprise


    dmeehan wrote:
    why cant a mallow - tralee shuttle serve it

    It was not a dumb question as others have thought it good enough to give good answers. The question I as asking was why do these kerry - dublin/cork trains have to stop in the middle of nowhere. surely this could be better served by a local service with connections at the main stations

    Also no need to shout!

    Just in case you dont know; considering that there is only 4 trains to dublin / cork and 5 from the Mallow / Tralee line aint exactly blessed with a train every 30 minutes.

    Also if you were to take out these stops you would save very little time - 5 minutes at most. As I said before these stations just dont serve the village - they have a wide catchment area therefore it is only right that all services stop at the likes of Banteer, Millstreet, Rathmore & Farranfore.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,790 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    Very Interesting. The Ali G approach to Irish rail transport development.

    Connex run the Western Rail Corridor! Sure, there is millions to be made on grannies with free travel passes refilling their holy water bottles at Knock once every six months.

    Cheers, best laugh I have had in ages.


    are you really the communications officer for P11?
    you seem to go out of your way to make sure you're not taken seriously.

    I largely agree with P11's objective's but you won't win many more converts with snide comments like this.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 823 ✭✭✭MG


    That type of thing seems to be P11's style, for some reason. It's very unprofessional, undermines their objectives and loses them a lot of credibility.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,558 ✭✭✭netwhizkid


    Originally posted by dmeehan
    The question I as asking was why do these kerry - dublin/cork trains have to stop in the middle of nowhere. surely this could be better served by a local service with connections at the main stations

    Yes i agree, this was one of the points i was trying to make in my first post, These small stations slow down the long distance trains, Eg. trains from kerry to dublin and mayo to dublin, These small stations would be better off with a few diesel commuter cars "the ones without the locos" afaik the arrow runs along similiar lines. These could be timetabled to connect with the express's to the likes of dublin - westport - belfast etc.
    Orginally posted by P11 Comms
    Connex run the Western Rail Corridor! Sure, there is millions to be made on grannies with free travel passes refilling their holy water bottles at Knock once every six months.

    What sort of an attitude is this to take ? Surely would it not be our senior citizens many of whom cannot drive, they are the people along side students & buisness people who would benefit from the WRC re-opening. Any way P11's approach to Lobbying for ireland's railways seems pathetic with those sort of comments, Only a few weeks ago i remember some one claiming to represent P11 saying that the Limerick Junction to Rosslare line should be cut to Clonmel only.

    Regards netwhizkid


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 173 ✭✭P11 Comms


    "What sort of an attitude is this to take ? Surely would it not be our senior citizens many of whom cannot drive, they are the people along side students & buisness people who would benefit from the WRC re-opening."

    I am only telling you to your face what Connex would be thinking. The Western Rail Corridor would be a disaster for rail transport in Ireland if the Coolooney to Limerick version was opened with a branch to Knock Airport. It would not only be astronomical in cost to build, but the massive annual subvention to keep it opened would be the perfect ammo the anti-rail crowd would need as proof that railways should not be invested in.

    Same thing for Limerick-Rosslare - this is why we must focus on what will generate traffic and that is Clonmel - everybody agree that half that route is pointless and generates almost no passengers. The very idea of reopening the West Clare is laughable. Maybe not to you, but it's a joke. Apart from Cork-Midleton, Navan, Athenry-Ennis there are no other railway lines in the Republic of Ireland that can be realistically reopened to passenger traffic. In fact, the most viable closed rail route is actually in NI Portadown-Armagh.

    Read back your posts on comparing Switzwerland tio Ireland. Railways are not just tracks you take out of a box and lay along the ground like a Horby railway. They are more complex to build from scratch than any motorway. I am telling you the truth. If this is being unprofessional, then I am sorry - but you cannot get away from fact. The West Clare will never be opened because it like the Western Rail Corridor was built on the cheap, was never really upgraded/maintained and was the track was rotting away long before CIE pulled the plug. They may have invested in new trains and locomotives, but most of the rail lines had crumbling embankments and bridges that were never properly maintained.

    We would all like to see railway expansion in Ireland - but it would be foolish to build them to anywhere other than populated centres and Sligo is medium sized regional town and not a large city and they already have a rail service.

    GB Railfreight did not even wat to run freight trains in this country because the market was tiny and the piopulation base too small. The only way forward for our railways in Ireland is to develop the system on the exsisting lines around Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway and go from there. This way railways will be a success and the sucess can be developed out into the rest of the country. Strategic planning is so utterly vital in this respect.

    I will let you into a secret which Platform11 has discovered. Nobody in Ireland cares about railways and railway development, not the Government, nor the media. We the pro-rail people, are tiny minority.

    Wishful thinking and comparisons to Switzerland are pointless as is putting up old maps of Ireland with all the closed lines on them becuase they were mainly built as a form of welfare in the post famine years by the British government and most of them were crap and failed from day one and this was at a time there was no competition from the car. They survived as they were used to get emmigrants to the ports. Apart from that they were miserable commercial and social failures. They did nothing to open up rural Ireland to industry. They were not real railways, they were welfare.

    These are the fundiemental truths about railways in Ireland and there is no getting away from this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,282 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    dmeehan wrote:
    Why do "InterCity" trains to Kerry stop at the sprawling metropolises of the likes of Banteer?
    Now, would it be because there are no metropolises in Kerry?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,415 ✭✭✭Optikus


    irish trains are bull crap FULL STOP


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 75 ✭✭Crossley


    GB Railfreight did not even wat to run freight trains in this country because the market was tiny and the piopulation base too small.

    This is factually incorrect. GBRf is a very successful company and one of the fastest and most proactive freight operators around. They would not have looked at Ireland without doing its homework first. The company identified several business opportunities here and were keen to act on those opportunities. At that time Coillte were looking to return to rail having had their business refused a year earlier by IE. GBRf had serious discussions with Coillte and a number of other companies as well as a number of port operators which reached an advanced stage. Senior GBRf management made several trips to Dublin and had a number of meetings with the Minister and senior Department of Transport officals in an attempt to develop this further. However they were stymied in their attempts by the fact that they were required to deal directly with CIE/IE. You can imagine how helpful the monopoly operator was ! Funnily enough after GBRf threw up its hands in despair IE were once again interested in the Coillte and Norfolkline business and deals were done.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 173 ✭✭P11 Comms


    Crossley wrote:
    This is factually incorrect. GBRf is a very successful company and one of the fastest and most proactive freight operators around. They would not have looked at Ireland without doing its homework first. The company identified several business opportunities here and were keen to act on those opportunities. At that time Coillte were looking to return to rail having had their business refused a year earlier by IE. GBRf had serious discussions with Coillte and a number of other companies as well as a number of port operators which reached an advanced stage. Senior GBRf management made several trips to Dublin and had a number of meetings with the Minister and senior Department of Transport officals in an attempt to develop this further. However they were stymied in their attempts by the fact that they were required to deal directly with CIE/IE. You can imagine how helpful the monopoly operator was ! Funnily enough after GBRf threw up its hands in despair IE were once again interested in the Coillte and Norfolkline business and deals were done.

    That's the standard rumour on the trainspotter grapevine which is just a combination of paranioa, hysteria and wishful thinking. The story I posted was the CIE version - which I fully accept, is probably just as selective with the truth.

    I imagine the real story of what happened in the CIE boardroom is somewhere in the middle.

    I cannot honestly see railfreight being expanded in Ireland until road tolling makes it more feasable for large logistics companies or some new mining operation opens somewhere. The Irish Examiner is going to have a feature on railfreight tomorrow from the EU angle I have been told - column space permitting.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 78,282 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    P11 Comms, I think part of the problem is Platform11's / your, at times aggressive style, that riles people up.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 173 ✭✭P11 Comms


    Victor wrote:
    P11 Comms, I think part of the problem is Platform11's / your, at times aggressive style, that riles people up.

    The thousands of real people outside the trainsspotter specturm who are scaring the bejabers off the polticans with our Extend the DART campaign are the ones that matter in all this.

    Trainspotters who stand on Sherriff Street Bridge fluttering their eyelashes at train drivers while slagging off P11 don't matter.

    BTW, I hope you signed the petition Victor.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,107 ✭✭✭John R


    P11 Comms wrote:
    The thousands of real people outside the trainsspotter specturm who are scaring the bejabers off the polticans with our Extend the DART campaign are the ones that matter in all this.

    Trainspotters who stand on Sherriff Street Bridge fluttering their eyelashes at train drivers while slagging off P11 don't matter.

    BTW, I hope you signed the petition Victor.

    indenial.jpg

    Your sneering unpleasant attitude towards trainspotters* reflects badly upon you and your organisation not the people you are trying so hard to belittle.

    Whether Victor or anyone else has signed or not signed your petition is irrelevant and none of your business.


    *Trainspotters appears to be a catch-all term applied to anyone that disagrees with your opinions in order to disparage the person without having to address the arguement.


    "You are a trainspotter"
    "No YOU are a trainspotter"
    "No YOU are"
    "No YOU are"
    etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,882 ✭✭✭fozzle


    I agree that the rail system in this country is a joke, but I don't think that getting rid of stops along lines is going to improve it.

    Trying to get around this country by train is a nightmare, I lived in Galway for 4years yet, despite the fact that there is a line from Galway to Waterford via Limerick, I never once managed to get the train home. Why? because it wasn't possible to connect from the GAlway-Limerick line to the Limerick-Waterford line, instead you're supposed to go Galway-Portlaoise-Kildare-Waterford :rolleyes:

    Or how about getting from Waterford to Cork? Most of my college-going classmates went to Cork, there are dozens of buses doing the run every day, yet the train line is sitting idle, and commuters are sent Waterfor-Limerick Junction-Cork, doubling the distance travelled.

    I now live on the Dublin-Cork line. Despite the high prices these trains are always packed, a sure sign that the Irish public do in fact want a rail network, if given the opertunity.

    Re rail freight, I'm convinced the government are doing their best to destroy this utterly. I'm sure most of you have heard of the wonderful new Dublin Docklands developments? Great, new apartments and offices are needed alraight, but did they have to be built on the rail yard for freight coming from Waterford Port? All the containers coming into Waterford for Dublin every day now have to be sent by road, leading to more conjestion, wear and tear, and more chances of accidents on the DUblin-Waterford road. Where's the logic in that?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭Genghis


    P11Comms, with respect:

    As one of the "thousands of real people outside the trainsspotter specturm who are scaring the bejabers off the polticans with our Extend the DART campaign" I fail to see the need for you or the rail lobby to attack anyone other than the policymakers that are blocking the campaign.

    Making snide comments and insinuations about people who contribute to the debate does nothing for the cause you are supposed to be advancing.

    If you want to do that, then perhaps register as a private person, not the leader of a lobby group that represents my interests.

    P.S. I signed your petition, I even dealt with the spam as a result.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,107 ✭✭✭John R


    fozzle wrote:
    Trying to get around this country by train is a nightmare, I lived in Galway for 4years yet, despite the fact that there is a line from Galway to Waterford via Limerick, I never once managed to get the train home. Why? because it wasn't possible to connect from the GAlway-Limerick line to the Limerick-Waterford line, instead you're supposed to go Galway-Portlaoise-Kildare-Waterford :rolleyes:

    I am not surprised you didn't manage to get that train home, it hasn't run in over 40 years. There is no open rail line from Galway to Limerick other than via Portarlington.
    fozzle wrote:
    Or how about getting from Waterford to Cork? Most of my college-going classmates went to Cork, there are dozens of buses doing the run every day, yet the train line is sitting idle, and commuters are sent Waterfor-Limerick Junction-Cork, doubling the distance travelled.

    Again that is the most direct rail route from Waterford - Cork. There is no direct line.


    Look at a rail map or timetable and try again.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,608 ✭✭✭✭sceptre


    Victor wrote:
    Now, would it be because there are no metropolises in Kerry?
    Ah now, at least they finally raised the platform in Banteer so you don't need a mini stairs to get out of the train.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,608 ✭✭✭✭sceptre


    P11 Comms wrote:
    BTW, I hope you signed the petition Victor.
    I hope it isn't an internet petition - I've never met anyone except the creators who half-take one seriously.

    Victor's got a point to be honest. Your aim is worthy of being taken seriously but as the representatives of an organisation that seeks to be taken seriously you could do better than to slag people off for what seems the sake of it. You've got a long reply above that answers a question in a rational way - do that with most of the replies and you might find more people willing to give something to your cause. Snide comments may make people think that it's a waste of time engaging with you. Up to you I suppose.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 173 ✭✭P11 Comms


    That's not a picture of a trainspotter at all. Where is the smug, self-satisfied halfwit grin than only 40 plus years of your mammy making your dinner can produce? Where is the cradle-to-grave semi-state job that his father got for him as he would never be capable of dressing up for an interview? Where is the anorak with the strings hanging off the sleeves and the 3 week old baked beans dried onto the front? The dead uncle's trousers from 1974? Where is the attention-seeking limp coupled with the hair pushed over to one side instead of being washed while smugly announcing that Seamus Brennan is evil becuase he did not save the Class 140 locomotives from being scrapped? The obsessive compulsive disorder to jot down the most pointless details regarding the dates of when a wheel was replaced on a timber wagon while declaring that "Platform11 are discredited!"?

    That guy looks like he at least has half a chance of getting a woman. His fly is even zipped up for God sake!

    Alright, so maybe they are not all like that. But the ones who are the most anti-P11 nearly always are and they were from day one even when we tried to reach out to them.

    The normal ones (people interested in railways, rather than trainspotters) tend to support us as they realise that the purpose of a rail lobby is not to save the steam train turntable at Galway, keep the 171 Locomotive class going or writing love letters to trains drivers on the Internet. These lads are grand, the rest deserve all the contempt which the greater society has for them because you cannot get away from evolution and natural selection no matter how hard you try.

    Thanks for signing the petiton thoes who have and for the rest of you could please do so if you have not already: www.extendthedart.com

    sorry about the spam - I'll get the webmaster to check that out.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 75 ✭✭Crossley


    That's the standard rumour on the trainspotter grapevine which is just a combination of paranioa, hysteria and wishful thinking. The story I posted was the CIE version - which I fully accept, is probably just as selective with the truth.

    Believe what you want but the information comes from an industry insider who was directly involved in the meetings both with the Department of Transport, GBRf and Coillte. P11 may want to believe the suggested IE/CIE version given their close relationship with those organisations and that's fine. However not everything in this world is as P11 would want us to believe or a trainspotter fantasy. P11 and in particular their PRO seems to like labeling everyone who does not agree with or toe the P11 line as trainspotters or British (as if either was a crime) which is a pity.

    Re your picture of a trainspotter, isn't that the common view of a railway modeller as well? I'm sure you don't fit that description though.


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