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Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information


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Irish Firearms & Hunting training Academy

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Comments

  • #52
    grassroot1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,524 ✭✭✭grassroot1


    Did you get a knock on the head? This has nothing whatsoever to do with hunter training and everything to do with parting you from your cash.
    We have several of the shooting bodies running safety courses so that side is covered and lots of shooting magazines with advice on hunting.
    If you put compulsory courses in place it will only serve to keep people out of the sport.
    If it's not broke why fix it.


  • #53
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Are you not trying to find wrong about people when they are only going to do your cause good (in this case)? The result will be you will destroy something before it gets started.
    Please re-read post #32 on this thread.
    *That* is the actual problem here.


  • #54
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,076 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Based on US NRA courses.So in that case they will have to acept anyone with US NRA qualifications as trained here if they want to use that as the marker.2 weeks holiers in the States would get you bumped to NRA firearms instructor and you could set up in competition offering the same course.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #55
    juice1304
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,805 ✭✭✭juice1304


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Based on US NRA courses.So in that case they will have to acept anyone with US NRA qualifications as trained here if they want to use that as the marker.2 weeks holiers in the States would get you bumped to NRA firearms instructor and you could set up in competition offering the same course.

    Not possible anymore due to ITAR regulations, you have to be a permanent resident to train in the states now. You need a licence atherwise and the provider of the training needs a licence to apply. costs lots of money..

    "NRA cannot provide any assistance in training foreign persons due to conflicting information from the U.S. Government regarding regulations pertinent to foreign persons and arms training. NRA cannot process any requests for assistance in training foreign persons.

    For example, applications for instructor certification of foreign persons will be returned, unprocessed, to the Training Counselor or Chief Range Safety Officer. We apologize for the inconvenience. We recommend that people interested in the subject of training foreign persons consult with their attorney regarding all pertinent regulations, including International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR)."


  • #56
    .243
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭.243


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Based on US NRA courses.So in that case they will have to acept anyone with US NRA qualifications as trained here if they want to use that as the marker.2 weeks holiers in the States would get you bumped to NRA firearms instructor and you could set up in competition offering the same course.
    That'd go down like a lead balloon for a first timer going for a licence,a super requests you go on a course,you part your money and send in your "qualification" only for the super to look into it and reads "NRA" somewhere,
    NRA=USA=guns,
    "This isn't the USA,are you looking for a machine gun ???,
    now off you go again and find a course some place more suited to our soil like the nargc


  • #57
    juice1304
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,805 ✭✭✭juice1304


    .243 wrote: »
    That'd go down like a lead balloon for a first timer going for a licence,a super requests you go on a course,you part your money and send in your "qualification" only for the super to look into it and reads "NRA" somewhere,
    NRA=USA=guns,
    "This isn't the USA,are you looking for a machine gun ???,
    now off you go again and find a course some place more suited to our soil like the nargc

    People were doing so for about ten years... I also took NRA courses and submitted the certs with applications. no one is going to complain about safety training.


  • #58
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,076 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    juice1304 wrote: »
    Not possible anymore due to ITAR regulations, you have to be a permanent resident to train in the states now. You need a licence atherwise and the provider of the training needs a licence to apply. costs lots of money..

    "NRA cannot provide any assistance in training foreign persons due to conflicting information from the U.S. Government regarding regulations pertinent to foreign persons and arms training. NRA cannot process any requests for assistance in training foreign persons.

    For example, applications for instructor certification of foreign persons will be returned, unprocessed, to the Training Counselor or Chief Range Safety Officer. We apologize for the inconvenience. We recommend that people interested in the subject of training foreign persons consult with their attorney regarding all pertinent regulations, including International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR)."

    AHEM...A good few of us have dual US/Irish citizenship..:P ITAR does not mean prohibited from doing either.It means Ireland is on a exemption list that requires end user certification,and then explain how these people are obtaining their training to be instructors etc over here as Irish residents??? You do need to revamp your NRA instructor rating every so often.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #59
    cavan shooter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,070 ✭✭✭cavan shooter


    If you posted this two years ago..I would have said fair play two lads who have seen an opening in the market.

    However in 2017 with everything that's going on with the Sports Coalition and the proposals about çourses being done and only in certain authorised training centres at a frequency to mirror the re licensing I am afraid this is getting bad vibes by pure circumstances and bad timing.


  • #60
    Hunter456
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 539 ✭✭✭Hunter456


    we have 500 hundred thousand or so licensed firearms in this country and how many of those are deer hunting or looking to get into the sport when you look at it from their point of view its a cash cow, what really grinds my gears is we make our selves out to be this one 4 all kind of community when in real facts we have back stabbers and snakes in the sport that are trying to exploit it and make a living from it.


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  • #61
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Well, closer to 200 thousand but fair enough.


  • #62
    juice1304
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,805 ✭✭✭juice1304


    I dont understand how someone wanting to help train people to improve their skills makes them a back stabber? Of course people are going to make a living from something they have done in the past professionally and something they are passionate about...
    And to be fair there are an awful lot of people who could do with pointers on safety, general firearms knowledge and basic fundamentals among other things. The amount of absolute ****e you hear on ranges from "experts" is alarming.
    I see the same thing everyday in work people coming to me telling me their firearms dont shoot or the work they wanted done wasn't done properly, we arrange to test it together on the range they shoot a 6 inch group and say look at that blaaa and then i ask if i may try it myself and it will shoot a ragged hole... caused usually by trigger control, some of them will take the advise on what they are doing wrong and will see an instant improvement others will go nuts and still know everything..
    I knew about albi wanting to set something up like that for a long long time before he did... He is not someone trying to con people out of money, He wants to help people and share knowledge with people.
    And knowledge and credentials he has.. He is extremely knowledgeable on all things relating to firearms and ballistics..
    That is the problem with the shooting community in Ireland everyone only ever looking for something to bitch and moan about, constantly trying to see something wrong with everything.
    I dont see why anyone would want to go to the bother of trying to set up a business with something they have a passion for only to be **** on for doing so at every waking moment and opportunity.
    If you dont want training then dont take it its that simple..
    There should be some form of standardized test however seen as how the government cant even write firearms laws without making a complete mess of it that is never going to happen. There will always be people seeking training to improve themselves.. and their knowledge.. and more power to them.
    There is also problems with self appointed wizards seeking to further their own little agendas, but you can be sure not to find that with him.


  • #63
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Juice, to quote an earlier post that you must have missed....
    Sparks wrote: »
    As mentioned above, just because something is legal and sounds like a good idea doesn't mean it's good for the sport, even in the absence of perfidity.

    As to the negative comments above, they're fair.
    Allegations wouldn't be; if you see any, report them and they'll be deleted (some already have been).

    There are two reasons why they're fair:
    • People have a past history with the people involved in the area of training and have negative opinions as a result. I'm not talking about me, by the way. How valid those opinions are today, I don't know and don't care to get into that. But if we banned everyone who had an opinion we didn't care for, this place would be a lot smaller and a lot quieter and we'd have more time for pints, so please stop tempting us :)
    • To call this a sensitive time for shooting sports in Ireland is to understate things to the point of absurdity. We haven't faced a situation this delicate in decades, with potential outcomes that could be highly destructive to our sports, even rendering many of them untenable or just plain extinct. If you're launching a company in such a timeframe, PR is a part of the process. If you think that launching a training company from a location that could be readily associated with some people who are lobbying for increased mandatory training and you don't do that PR, well, this thread is the kind of thing that happens because reasonable people ask genuine questions. It's unfortunate, not fatal, and no perfidity is involved on either side. And frankly, if you were to go googling the company as a non-shooter, this thread is not one of the results any investor would worry about. The Streisand effect is happening here.



    TL;DR: someone screwed up their PR, people asked valid questions, stuff has been answered, nothing illegal is going on, that topic is pretty much done. Some people won't think much of this company, some will. That's also perfectly valid. There's a wider topic here that's worth talking about; you can do so if you wish.


  • #64
    Walter Mittys Brother
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 314 ✭✭Walter Mittys Brother


    Training is fine for those who need it or even want it. But compulsary training for those who don't need it is where I draw the line as do many others.

    While we're on the subject many who tell good war stories have never seen action. The ones who say nothing have though.


  • #65
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,076 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    juice1304 wrote: »
    I
    I
    If you dont want training then dont take it its that simple..
    There should be some form of standardized test however

    Oxymoron..much?:)

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #66
    gunny123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭gunny123


    juice1304 wrote: »
    I dont understand how someone wanting to help train people to improve their skills makes them a back stabber? Of course people are going to make a living from something they have done in the past professionally and something they are passionate about...

    Wanting to train people isn't backstabbing, creeping to the ptb looking to have it "standardised" or made compulsory, certainly is.

    Anyone giving courses professionally that i have met are passionate alright, usually about money in my experience.


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  • #67
    juice1304
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,805 ✭✭✭juice1304


    I did read the post and my post was in relation to the comment on the previous page.

    I think there should be some sort of compulsory training, however not from a private company as that just breeds nonsense,
    but from a government body such as the NPWS, if it were a thing they were capable (which they currently are not) and it should be free. If it is free there is nothing for anyone to gain financially, no boards of self appointed experts to rule over the other plebs and i dont see how it would hinder anyone from getting involved.
    Everyone needs some level of training and to say otherwise is simply silly.
    I think a basic understanding of safety, firearms maintenance, ballistics and Irish firearms law should be mandatory and for those that want to hunt then a few questions on very basic aspects of the wildlife act. Very very simple things....

    Im not saying it should be something crazy like it is here in Germany were the regulations are ridiculous and a very expensive process.

    There is too much ignorance and complacency in relation to firearms i think. And eventually there will be an accident and it will look really terrible. Just thinking about the amount of people walking around with barrels not on face makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.
    Even in the states somewhere we shouldnt mention here because of their apparent lax laws and their 2a etc... In all states you have to take a mandatory training course to get a hunting licence.

    In relation to the tread though about the specif company like i said it is for people to better themselves which is why i chimed in.


  • #68
    gunny123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭gunny123


    juice1304 wrote: »
    I did read the post and my post was in relation to the comment on the previous page.

    I think there should be some sort of compulsory training, however not from a private company as that just breeds nonsense,
    but from a government body such as the NPWS, if it were a thing they were capable (which they currently are not) and it should be free. If it is free there is nothing for anyone to gain financially, no boards of self appointed experts to rule over the other plebs and i dont see how it would hinder anyone from getting involved.
    Everyone needs some level of training and to say otherwise is simply silly.
    I think a basic understanding of safety, firearms maintenance, ballistics and Irish firearms law should be mandatory and for those that want to hunt then a few questions on very basic aspects of the wildlife act. Very very simple things....

    Im not saying it should be something crazy like it is here in Germany were the regulations are ridiculous and a very expensive process.

    There is too much ignorance and complacency in relation to firearms i think. And eventually there will be an accident and it will look really terrible. Just thinking about the amount of people walking around with barrels not on face makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.
    Even in the states somewhere we shouldnt mention here because of their apparent lax laws and their 2a etc... In all states you have to take a mandatory training course to get a hunting licence.

    In relation to the tread though about the specif company like i said it is for people to better themselves which is why i chimed in.


    So apart from shooters training, you want a gun nct ?


  • #69
    juice1304
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,805 ✭✭✭juice1304


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Oxymoron..much?:)

    No a government standardized test to ensure safety and people wanting to pay to learn about different hunting situations, shooting from angles, long range shooting, coaching etc... are two completely things.
    I just hate seeing people constantly bashing others and the general politics that goes with shooting in Ireland.


  • #70
    gunny123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭gunny123


    juice1304 wrote: »
    I just hate seeing people constantly bashing others and the general politics that goes with shooting in Ireland.


    Yeah, i hate it too. I promise to be less vigilant and more gullible in future so :rolleyes:


  • #71
    juice1304
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,805 ✭✭✭juice1304


    gunny123 wrote: »
    So apart from shooters training, you want a gun nct ?

    No i didnt say that, but people should have an understanding themselves about what is safe and what is not safe... that would go with having a basic knowledge. As in give it a shake if it rattles take it to be looked at as it could mean excessive headspace which is bad when dealing with 1100-4500bar. I dont think that should be too difficult. It could all (safety, maintenance, law etc..) be in a small 5 page pamphlet with picture...


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  • #72
    123shooter
    Registered Users Posts: 964 ✭✭✭123shooter


    juice1304 wrote: »
    No i didnt say that, but people should have an understanding themselves about what is safe and what is not safe... that would go with having a basic knowledge. As in give it a shake if it rattles take it to be looked at as it could mean excessive headspace which is bad when dealing with 1100-4500bar. I dont think that should be too difficult. It could all (safety, maintenance, law etc..) be in a small 5 page pamphlet with picture...

    Put it this way:..........

    If there was a test to obtain a licence for a gun which was to be taken at each renewal every 3 years, and every calibre and kind of gun was licenceable, and every kind of shooting was available to those who pass their licence.........so you could have any pistol calibre and even semi-auto rifles, and these guns could be used at approved ranges which would with the renewed shooting interest start to spring up all over the country to cater for the large amount of shooters coming on the scene............Then this lot would most likely change their minds.


  • #73
    gunny123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭gunny123


    123shooter wrote: »
    Put it this way:..........

    If their was a test to obtain a licence for a gun which was to be taken at each renewal every 3 years and every calibre and kind of gun was licenceable and every kind of shooting was available to those who pass their licence.........so you could have any pistol calibre and even semi-auto rifles and these guns could be used at approved ranges which would with the renewed shooting interest start to spring up all over the country to cater for the large amount of shooters coming on the scene............Then this lot would most likely change their minds.

    You can already have semi-auto rifles. As for the rest, its la-la land stuff. The gardai would never allow the return of centre-fire pistols, especially just because someone had done some half-arsed evening course.


  • #74
    123shooter
    Registered Users Posts: 964 ✭✭✭123shooter


    gunny123 wrote: »
    You can already have semi-auto rifles. As for the rest, its la-la land stuff. The gardai would never allow the return of centre-fire pistols, especially just because someone had done some half-arsed evening course.

    Totally besides the point. Whether it could happen or not is irrelevent and any half arsed course would never be enough.

    If there was enough people demanding it then eventually it would happen. The trouble is you get walked over because you are a minority without any clout and not in control of your public image.

    Your clout would be you are heavily trained and responsible and this would portray a high public image with many people participating.


  • #75
    gunny123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭gunny123


    123shooter wrote: »
    Totally besides the point. Whether it could happen or not is irrelevent and any half arsed course would never be enough.

    If there was enough people demanding it then eventually it would happen. The trouble is you get walked over because you are a minority without any clout and not in control of your public image.

    Your clout would be you are heavily trained and responsible and this would portray a high public image with many people participating.

    We are a minority and will always be so. There is nothing stopping the vast majority of the public taking up shooting in the morning if they so chose. The problem is the media here are totally anti-gun and the public have swallowed that, that is not going to change. You are either the slayer of Bambi's mother, or a "gun nut" with a high powered .22 rifle that wants to shoot up schools.

    So Ireland changing into a shooting sports utopia like Switzerland or America is never going to happen.


  • #76
    123shooter
    Registered Users Posts: 964 ✭✭✭123shooter


    gunny123 wrote: »

    So Ireland changing into a shooting sports utopia like Switzerland or America is never going to happen.

    I agree and never will because the Irish way is to shoot;) something down before it's even started.

    Always find the negative before you even look at the positive.


  • #77
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    juice1304 wrote: »
    I think there should be some sort of compulsory training
    Well, there is - you're mandatorily required to provide proof of competence.
    It's just that there's more than one way to do that. Most learn the way we've learned for centuries, over a period of weeks and months in a club setting as skills build solidly over time - something a time-limited course can never provide.
    Some will be trained by the defence forces, some will do courses, some will learn from family over a period of years, and so on. There are too many ways to learn that have existed for too many centuries for it to be viable to just draft a new training course to replace all of them.

    Sadly, that wouldn't stop people from trying :(
    it should be free.
    Can you think of any other kind of training provided by the state - whether or not it's to do with something that's licenced - which is free?
    I've been trying to and I can't think of any.
    Which means the state would have no trouble in levying a fee.
    Which means now you'd have a mandatory paid training course, for a sport with a near-perfect safety record stretching back centuries and with training methods developed over generations to support that, all because...

    ...actually, what is the because? The main risk I see to safety in our sport these days is the introduction of courses without regulation - and I certainly agree, that's a horrible accident waiting to happen. But honestly, banning the courses would seem a cheaper, easier, safer approach than introducing a state training course, especially when the state has no competency at all in civilian firearms training.


    edit: That's not me calling for courses to be banned. I'm just saying that if the choice was between mandatory state training and banning private courses, I'd ban private courses in a heartbeat. It's a better option. But if we had a free choice, I'd keep them, they're useful for edge cases. I'd just have them regulated instead of being the dangerous free-for-all nonsense they are today.


  • #78
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    123shooter wrote: »
    Always find the negative before you even look at the positive.
    Yes, that's called experience.

    Personally, I don't like saying that it's "looking for the negative" to look both ways before you step out into the road and get hit by a bus.


  • #79
    123shooter
    Registered Users Posts: 964 ✭✭✭123shooter


    Sparks wrote: »
    Yes, that's called experience.

    Personally, I don't like saying that it's "looking for the negative" to look both ways before you step out into the road and get hit by a bus.

    So you stand still and dont cross the road and dont go anywhere.

    Another saying is.....if you never try anything you will never do anything.

    Could be here forever.


  • #80
    gunny123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭gunny123


    123shooter wrote: »
    So you stand still and dont cross the road and dont go anywhere.

    Another saying is.....if you never try anything you will never do anything.

    Could be here forever.

    Or cross the road an find you are no better off, but have to pay for the experience.


  • #81
    123shooter
    Registered Users Posts: 964 ✭✭✭123shooter


    gunny123 wrote: »
    Or cross the road an find you are no better off, but have to pay for the experience.

    Yep they all sound good the only difference is........you will die wondering.


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  • #82
    Walter Mittys Brother
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 314 ✭✭Walter Mittys Brother


    123shooter wrote: »
    Yep they all sound good the only difference is........you will die wondering.

    And richer


  • #83
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,076 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    gunny123 wrote: »
    We are a minority and will always be so. There is nothing stopping the vast majority of the public taking up shooting in the morning if they so chose. The problem is the media here are totally anti-gun and the public have swallowed that, that is not going to change. You are either the slayer of Bambi's mother, or a "gun nut" with a high powered .22 rifle that wants to shoot up schools.

    So Ireland changing into a shooting sports utopia like Switzerland or America is never going to happen.

    The clout will come once some Hadjis go "Aloha Snackbar" in our cities and towns a couple of times and once the Brits start considering it,we follow.Already they are starting to discuss this,and with time the average Joe will start talking about it too..Already there is a push on in the EU for concealed carry,and there has been EU wide an uptake in people suddenly intrested in joining gun clubs and hunting courses... Give it time...:)


    No a government standardized test to ensure safety and people wanting to pay to learn about different hunting situations, shooting from angles, long range shooting, coaching etc... are two completely things.
    I just hate seeing people constantly bashing others and the general politics that goes with shooting in Ireland.

    Seeing that this lot farm out everything in testing these days to NGBs or quangoes.You will end up with a for profit organisation running the show,like what is almost proposed here. As for a course in the US to get your der hunting liscense.It's the NRA hunter saftey course,which you only need to do in a few states,and it takes all of a Saturday to do. Picture HCAP without the massive padding and price gouging.

    The reason most people are dead set against this is simply we know we will be jacked over by the State handing the training to someone of our own who will make profit out of us.Fool us once an all that...

    It will be padded to hell to make it look difficult and that you are getting value for money..And proably have to do it for every class of firearm out here.
    As you can see by this company in question,they are going from amatuer hunter to "master hunter"[Whatever the Hell that is!] and no doubt paying for each step.Sort of like Scientology that plan.

    There will be no doubt some sort of "resit value"clause that you have to re do it every 3or 5 years at an increasing cost

    It will not be cheap either.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #84
    123shooter
    Registered Users Posts: 964 ✭✭✭123shooter


    Grizzly 45 wrote:
    The clout will come once some Hadjis go "Aloha Snackbar" in our cities and towns a couple of times and once the Brits start considering it,we follow.Already they are starting to discuss this,and with time the average Joe will start talking about it too..Already there is a push on in the EU for concealed carry,and there has been EU wide an uptake in people suddenly intrested in joining gun clubs and hunting courses... Give it time...:)

    The only one: :)


    Now if training was given and then this was expanded on where there were different levels of training and certification to the type of gun license and shooting. You could end up with a small army/large army of very highly trained civilians who would be as trained and skilled as military and the majority of the police and even be available if required.............at the same time attracting thousands of more people in to the sport which would widen and grow accordingly..............and at the same time give yourselves some massive clout if needed and very much alter the public image.

    A bit of fantasy but anythings possible and as you say similar to Switzerland. But I bet Grizzly would be there;)

    Instead we have begrudgers.


  • #85
    123shooter
    Registered Users Posts: 964 ✭✭✭123shooter


    Walter Mittys Brother wrote: »
    And richer

    Well if you can spend money when you are dead.....good luck to you.:)


  • #86
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,076 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    123shooter wrote: »
    The only one: :)


    Now if training was given and then this was expanded on where there were different levels of training and certification to the type of gun license and shooting. You could end up with a small army/large army of very highly trained civilians who would be as trained and skilled as military and the majority of the police and even be available if required.............at the same time attracting thousands of more people in to the sport which would widen and grow accordingly..............and at the same time give yourselves some massive clout if needed and very much alter the public image.

    A bit of fantasy but anythings possible and as you say similar to Switzerland. But I bet Grizzly would be there;)

    Instead we have begrudgers.
    Which brings back to the chicken&egg sydrome of the problem..WHO provides the training??The state will run a mile from it on both counts and I belive actively do everything to discourage and sabotage it...As any state will demand a monoply on violence to an individual..If they cant handle us doing a sport like IPSC...What happens when you are teaching CQB drills from a vechicle and from cover with hostage and hostile man targets??

    The training for that is a polar opposite from sports shooting involving alot of serious stress and stress fire and chaos going on around you and you dont have time for leisurely reloads or trying for the perfect grouping.
    So you will need a polar opposite again in training and qualifications that what is provided here. Someone like "instructor Zero" or Massad Ayoob dont come cheap.[Ironic that you mention Switzerland..It is the only Shenegen country that allows pure defensive combat firearms training for civvies.]

    The washout and criteria for this course will have to be phenomal if we want people walking about witth concealed carry firearms.So do we have a massive amout of ultra trained sports shooters with an unnecessary strict testing criteria which discourages newbies.Or people with a normal training and volenteering themselves to go CCWP holders??

    Chicken and Duck egg syndrome more like, with someone, somewhere with euro signs in their eyes.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #87
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    123shooter wrote: »
    Now if training was given and then this was expanded on where there were different levels of training and certification to the type of gun license and shooting. You could end up with a small army/large army of very highly trained civilians who would be as trained and skilled as military and the majority of the police and even be available if required.

    A police commissioner proposed that in the UK last week.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-40252299

    The entire British police force turned round to tell her that if they wanted vigilantes running the country they'd organise a coalition government with the DUP.

    Or to put it in a more Irish tone of voice, the last time we developed a problem in Ireland with terrorism, the Minister for Justice and the Garda Commissioner committed what is technically an act of sedition in order to confiscate everyones firearms and we didn't see them again until they were taken to the supreme court thirty years later.

    So no, someone murdering a lot of innocent people actually doesn't have an upside. Funny that.


  • #88
    gunny123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭gunny123


    Sparks wrote: »

    Or to put it in a more Irish tone of voice, the last time we developed a problem in Ireland with terrorism, the Minister for Justice and the Garda Commissioner committed what is technically an act of sedition in order to confiscate everyones firearms and we didn't see them again until they were taken to the supreme court thirty years later.

    So no, someone murdering a lot of innocent people actually doesn't have an upside. Funny that.

    That particular jape of confiscation didn't do much to stop terrorism either did it ? The paramilitaries wound up better equipped and armed than those trying to stop them. There might be a lesson there for the likes of Ahern or whatever overpaid numbskull is over us now.


  • #89
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    You're not suggesting that governments learn from errors and only do things that work are you? :D

    Though I have to say, in this case I'd agree with the "don't arm civilians to do the ERU's job" line. I got into target shooting to do a sport with a high degree of difficulty, a great ethos and a fantastic safety record.

    If I wanted to shoot at people, I'd have joined the army.
    And if I found myself in the middle of a terrorist attack, I'd be remarkably focussed on getting out of the middle of that attack, not trying to play call of duty with real firearms.


  • #90
    gunny123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭gunny123


    Sparks wrote: »
    You're not suggesting that governments learn from errors and only do things that work are you? :D

    God no. No matter how wrong, how much flak is incoming, stick to your guns and maintain everyone else is wrong and you are in the right.


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  • #91
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,076 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Fudd arguement there right off..The "if you want to shoot people or play soilders with assault rifles join the army or police etc."Usually spouted by ex Col Blimps or REMF's from their club armchairs over brandy and fulminating at the state of todays youth,and that a spot in the army would sort them out.:p

    No CCW is NOT for everybodyNo one should be forced to do it at all and NO it should not be handed out like sweets to every Tom Dick and Sally it is a VERY grave responsibility and not to be taken lightly by anyone. As I said it is a polar opposite to sports shooting in outlook,mindset ,equipment and skillset.

    Where the worlds cross here is simply in the people and their use of a particular firearm type and the fact is there is already a well vetted cadre of about 600 potential volenteers out there.
    Were these not difficcult times that involve us here as well in this great little country,no matter how we try and delude ourselvs that we aren't involved and "shure nuthin will happen"itis,no one would be thinking of this or even espousing it.

    However if talking and highlighting the issue raises awareness and even got us LESS leathl stuff to deal with a problem here like pepper spray that would be a great step forward..
    No one has ever died of pepper spray it is incapacitating and some of the stuff has a spray range up to 15 feet these days. Plus ask any first responder,EMT technican or Garda would they rather be treating someone by pouring MILK in their eyes and exposed skin and a few honks of oxygen,or trying to stitch together a few severed arteries and deep lacerations?

    I,myself would not like to end up in a situation like London or Paris in November15 and knowing I have a particular skillset that could end a murderous rampage in seconds and all I can do is fight offf a knife weilding religious fanatic cutting down running unarmed people while I am armed with beer bottles,a skate board,or plastic chairs because thats the only thing a paranoid govt will allow and cant comprehend these attackers dont want a hug and a talking to to solve their problems and that their armed officals are minutes[or in our case here sometimes HOURS away] and deny their citizens effective methods to counter this threat.It would be a most undignified ending.:p

    Guess the "sheepdog gene" never goes away in some of us,but ultimately it is up to the shepard to recognise this fact and allow the sheep dog the training to become a most useful and loyal tool. We are now discussing here who will train the sheep dog,who is qualified to do so?And who wont charge rippoff prices just because the shepard needs the dog to do the basics.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #92
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Were these not difficcult times that involve us here as well in this great little country,no matter how we try and delude ourselvs that we aren't involved and "shure nuthin will happen"itis,no one would be thinking of this or even espousing it.
    No, things are definitely happening at the moment. Between stormfront, regular thicko cowards attacking mosques in the dead of night, RIRA gearing up for a spat with the DUP/UVF mob north of the border and the usual drug gangs, there's a lot of stuff going on. I just wouldn't want to be within an ass's roar of it, and I think the idea of our sports getting dragged in that direction is something to be kicked in the crotch and rolled into the nearest ditch in a hurry.

    Your job is not to fight off the nazi zombie apocalypse, and if you were trying to, you'd only get in the way when the actual police show up, and then you slow down their reaction times by being a civilian with a firearm that they have to do an on-the-fly threat assessment of. It's probably the fastest way to get shot in the back of the head by someone in uniform that I can think of.

    And this "sheepdog" ****e? It's ****e. It's been ****e since the americans started bandying it around thirty years ago, it's never really held up despite the enormous amount of in-the-field trials they've given in (hell, they can't even get their police to learn how not to shoot). Carrying one as a tool to help you run away, or having one in the house, I can get my head around (but it's a nightmare thought because it implies that your society has gotten so bad that you need to do that); but this "I'll carry one to defend other people like a big man"? Please stop. This forum's for Walthers, not Walters.


  • #93
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,076 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Sparks wrote: »
    No, things are definitely happening at the moment. Between stormfront, regular thicko cowards attacking mosques in the dead of night, RIRA gearing up for a spat with the DUP/UVF mob north of the border and the usual drug gangs, there's a lot of stuff going on. I just wouldn't want to be within an ass's roar of it, and I think the idea of our sports getting dragged in that direction is something to be kicked in the crotch and rolled into the nearest ditch in a hurry.

    Lets see,have any of the above Right wing boogeymen driven into crowds for religious reasons and massacred anyone NOT involved in their world,in the last 20 years or so??Apart from our own lads dressed as ERU and toting AKMs in a hotel recently and some poor SOB being an apprentice plumber to a criminal figure and being in the wrong place at the wrong time.I cant think of any ""hose the Homey and his Hoe" LA style drive by where they just spray the street in the hope of hitting their target in Ireland??

    And sorry for your "sports" it IS being dragged into it on a European level,whether you like or not.Some more mature countries in their outlook and firearms laws and sports shooters do actually have CCWP and are pushing for it EU wide.Or at least a rational debate on it They just know how to tell the difference and know where there are overlaps,or allow their citizens less leathl self defence options,and dont throw wobblers,stick their fingers in their ears and go "lal la la Cant hear you on this issue!" when the discussion about firearms in civillian hands comes up,like the Irish did with sex until recently.:)
    Your job is not to fight off the nazi zombie apocalypse, and if you were trying to, you'd only get in the way when the actual police show up, and then you slow down their reaction times by being a civilian with a firearm that they have to do an on-the-fly threat assessment of. It's probably the fastest way to get shot in the back of the head by someone in uniform that I can think of.

    you must be reading the "Fudd's book of reasons civillians must not be anyway armed!"As that is another Fuddism.:)
    You DO realise people can be trained as can police[well maybe not,considering these" armed professionals" shot an innocent in the head at London bridge?? I wont comment on the large amount of shots fired,as that is very possible under stress fire conditions]
    And you do realise procedures can be put in place on how to deal with the post shooting even??Or are "mere civillians" not capable of this??


    ,
    it's never really held up despite the enormous amount of in-the-field trials they've given in (hell, they can't even get their police to learn how not to shoot).

    Please provide verifiable evidence of this??And dont try to compare Eu police work to US police work and training.Both have somevery serious faults.There is a reason some US police are trigger happy and seeing some of the ****e they put up with on a daily basis I'm not surprised why their reactions might be over the top to Europeans.
    Carrying one as a tool to help you run away, or having one in the house, I can get my head around (but it's a nightmare thought because it implies that your society has gotten so bad that you need to do that);

    Society has been like this always,its just we hear of it alot quicker with modern media and therefore think it is more prevailent.
    but this "I'll carry one to defend other people like a big man"? Please stop. This forum's for Walthers, not Walters.
    A little man would be alot better in this case..He is a much harder target to hit.:D:D:D:D

    CCW has been proven to work for the last 30 years.FBI and CDC in Atlanta have recorded a steady drop in personal assaults since Florida introduced it in the late 1980s Despite the doom mongers predicting blood in the streets at every opportunity by gun nuts..Czech republic,Slovakia..?? Only place that might have a high crime level is our own Northern Ireland,funny tho I doubt you will hear of any mass stabbings or shootings anymore up there either....

    But we'll leave it here...Not everyone will see this eye to eye,but it will keep cropping up the more these attacks happen...Suffice to say I hope neither of us find ourselves in a situation like of recent times.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #94
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Lets see,have any of the above Right wing boogeymen driven into crowds for religious reasons and massacred anyone NOT involved in their world,in the last 20 years or so?
    Are you not watching the news? YES. This morning. One dead, seven injured by some lunatic who wanted to kill muslims.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-40322960
    I cant think of any ""hose the Homey and his Hoe" LA style drive by where they just spray the street in the hope of hitting their target in Ireland?
    How do you forget two lads driving down the M50 firing 9mm rounds from MAC-10s at each other?
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/new-gangland-violence-feared-after-m50-shooting-1.776927
    And sorry for your "sports" it IS being dragged into it on a European level,whether you like or not.
    No, it isn't. The EU countries where you do have CCW don't class it as a sport because it's not. It's not even close.
    You DO realise people can be trained as can police[well maybe not,considering these" armed professionals" shot an innocent in the head at London bridge?
    First off, those were apparently SAS.
    If you think they're not armed professionals, you've got a rather shaky position.
    Second off, yes, people can be trained as police. We then call them police. And if we're expecting them to be deployed with firearms, we're meant to keep on training them. All the time.

    I dunno about you, but I've not got the time or the freedom at work to take half a week off every six weeks or so to go train to shoot people after spending 200 full-time weeks training as a policeman.
    Please provide verifiable evidence of this?
    Would you prefer statistics or video footage of trained US police shooting unarmed, prone, surrendering, static nurses?
    Your call (but seriously, does the mere existence of both not signal that there's a problem to you?).
    And dont try to compare Eu police work to US police work and training.
    I wouldn't even call the US process training compared to the EU process, it's barely 10% of what we do.
    Both have somevery serious faults.
    I'll grant you that, just as soon as either of the last two commissioners pick up their phone; but there's a bit of a difference between governance that verges, if not fully crosses over, into incompetence and corruption; and shooting innocent people at a rate that's mindboggling. 409 in 2013 (according to the economist) versus 8 in germany and 0 in the UK. It's creeping up on 10% of all violent deaths by firearm in the US (excluding suicides) being down to the police.
    CCW has been proven to work for the last 30 years.
    Citation needed, because the National Academy of Sciences publicly stated a few years ago that there had been no research done on the topic that stood up to any kind of analysis, for reasons varying from bad experimental design and bias to actual math errors.


  • #95
    ezra_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭ezra_


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Despite the doom mongers predicting blood in the streets at every opportunity by gun nuts..Czech republic,Slovakia..?? Only place that might have a high crime level is our own Northern Ireland,funny tho I doubt you will hear of any mass stabbings or shootings anymore up there either....

    They have CCW in NI?!?!
    How does that work - they don't have pistol?!


  • #96
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,627 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Have not stuck my head into this thread for a few days, but trying to get through the last few pages has me wondering why on a sport shooting forum we're discussing, among other things:
    • Militia type groups
    • Arming civilians
    • Training like the DF/AGS
    • RKBA

    The thread has drifted way off topic and into prohibited territory. That ends now.

    The thread will remain open and it will get back on topic.

    Any posts after this, and i mean directly after this, continuing on the current theme will be removed and the user infracted.
    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

    Moderators - Cass otmmyboy2 , CatMod - Shamboc , Admins - Beasty , mickeroo



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  • #97
    gunny123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭gunny123


    ezra_ wrote: »
    They have CCW in NI?!?!
    How does that work - they don't have pistol?!

    They most certainly DO have pistols, and a vast amount of them too compared to down here. They are used in the shooting sports and for personal protection carry.


  • #98
    gunny123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭gunny123


    Cass wrote: »
    Have not stuck my head into this thread for a few days, but trying to get through the last few pages has me wondering why on a sport shooting forum we're discussing, among other things:
    • Militia type groups
    • Arming civilians
    • Training like the DF/AGS
    • RKBA

    The thread has drifted way off topic and into prohibited territory. That ends now.

    The thread will remain open and it will get back on topic.

    Any posts after this, and i mean directly after this, continuing on the current theme will be removed and the user infracted.


    Does that include that trouble maker sparks :P


  • #99
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    gunny123 wrote: »
    Does that include that trouble maker sparks :P

    Yes, mods have to play by the rules as well.
    Apologies folks, got caught at a bad moment (ie. while reading the news)


  • #100
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,627 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    gunny123 wrote: »
    Does that include that trouble maker sparks :P
    Yup.

    As said above Mods have to play by the rules too. It's why there are always a few Mods to each forum. Mods are 95% regular posters in their own forums and 100% in other ones. If they overstep or step out of line it's the job of the other Mods to act.
    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

    Moderators - Cass otmmyboy2 , CatMod - Shamboc , Admins - Beasty , mickeroo



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