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DART+ (DART Expansion)

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    #932
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,121 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citybanan
    Stockholm seems to be building a similar tunnel at the moment to clear a bottleneck in the center.
    The tunnel will significantly improve the traffic throughput to and from south of Stockholm as there are only two tracks in that direction from Stockholm Central Station, the same number that were in place in 1871 when the railway was originally built.
    http://maps.google.ie/?ie=UTF8&ll=59.327323,18.061491&spn=0.004411,0.009645&t=h&z=17


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    #933
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    George Hook had Frank McDonald on yesterday, to summarise, DU good MN bad. It is in Part 2 , here.

    http://media.newstalk.ie/listenback/221/monday/1/popup


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    #934
    D.L.R.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    George Hook had Frank McDonald on yesterday, to summarise, DU good MN bad. It is in Part 2 , here.

    http://media.newstalk.ie/listenback/221/monday/1/popup

    Listened to that. Pretty boring and broad debate both lads talking about usual irrelavant megacities, not very informative. No mention of the smaller cities all over the world with great metro systems.

    In making the case against underground in general, George mentions that Vienna instead has a great tram system. Neither of the guests (even the guy in favour of metro) could tell George that Vienna also has a world class U-Bahn system to boot. Gee. you think that might be worth mentioning.

    Build it or don't, but jesus fkn christ, KNOW why you are or are not building it. This country lacks expertise in this area, Irish people ain't got a clue about metros. Lets get some foreigners in the mix to debate it properly before making another stupid decision.


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    #935
    dynamick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭dynamick


    A few contradictions in Frank McDonald's position:
    • Says he is opposed to underground rail for Dublin yet supports DART underground
    • Opposes damage to Stephen's Green from Metro Construction yet thinks that construction of 2X 90m platforms, ticket hall and services for DART Underground is acceptable in the same location
    • Thinks we can't afford Metro yet we can afford DART Underground at a similar price
    • Believes that Metro project was a product of boom time thinking when the DTO proposed it in 2000, yet there are 250,000 more people in employment in 2011 than in 2000 and population has increased significantly along the route
    • Opposes Metro on the basis that we have too many modes of public transport yet sings the praises of public transport in cities with u-bahn, s-bahn, trolleybus, tram, commuter rail & buses

    The risk with Frank McDonald's argument is that it can be used as a fig leaf by anti-public transport politicians to put the project off while further appraisals of the DART Underground are done.


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    #936
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,856 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    It's shocking how much free reign him and Myers get in the national media.


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    #937
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    He should be renamed the bicycle and built heritage correspondent which is what he is. He is at best dangerously inept when it comes to transport infrastructure and at worst a mouthpiece of an taisce and some shadowy green types whose muck he uncritically regurgitates.


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    #938
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    He should be renamed the bicycle and built heritage correspondent which is what he is. He is at best dangerously inept when it comes to transport infrastructure and at worst a mouthpiece of an taisce and some shadowy green types whose muck he uncritically regurgitates.

    On bicycles...

    In cities where cycling amount to 50%+ of the city's commuters, rail links are also fairly strong. Amsterdam and Copenhagen are prime examples, both have decent metros and commuter rail.

    Cycling complements rail. In the Netherlands a huge amount of people cycle to their nearest station.


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    #939
    Jack Noble
    Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭Jack Noble


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    It's shocking how much free reign [McDonald] and Myers get in the national media.

    Yeats said it best:

    [SIZE=-1]"The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.[/SIZE]"

    That's exactly what we are seeing in the debate over public transport and projects like Metro, Dart and Luas.

    But so typical of the standard of debate and governance in this country since independence.


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    #940
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,856 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    monument wrote: »
    On bicycles...

    In cities where cycling amount to 50%+ of the city's commuters, rail links are also fairly strong. Amsterdam and Copenhagen are prime examples, both have decent metros and commuter rail.

    Both cities are also incredibly flat!!!!


  • Options
    #941
    Jack Noble
    Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭Jack Noble


    dynamick wrote: »
    A few contradictions in Frank McDonald's position:
    • Says he is opposed to underground rail for Dublin yet supports DART underground
    • Opposes damage to Stephen's Green from Metro Construction yet thinks that construction of 2X 90m platforms, ticket hall and services for DART Underground is acceptable in the same location
    • Thinks we can't afford Metro yet we can afford DART Underground at a similar price
    • Believes that Metro project was a product of boom time thinking when the DTO proposed it in 2000, yet there are 250,000 more people in employment in 2011 than in 2000 and population has increased significantly along the route
    • Opposes Metro on the basis that we have too many modes of public transport yet sings the praises of public transport in cities with u-bahn, s-bahn, trolleybus, tram, commuter rail & buses

    The risk with Frank McDonald's argument is that it can be used as a fig leaf by anti-public transport politicians to put the project off while further appraisals of the DART Underground are done.

    He and Hook also used examples like Shanghai and New York (JFK airport link).

    Utterly ludicrous and both ignorant (Hook) and disengenous (McDonald).

    Compare like with like and Dublin with Stockholm, Oslo, Copenhagen, Munich, Vienna, Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Prague, Budapest, Lisbon, Porto, etc - not London, Paris, Madrid, Shanghai or New York.


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    #942
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Both cities are also incredibly flat!!!!

    Most of Dublin isn't hilly. Even the less flat urban areas of Dublin are not very hilly.


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    #943
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    monument wrote: »
    Most of Dublin isn't hilly. Even the less flat urban areas of Dublin are not very hilly.

    Dublin has quite a gradual rise, for example Grangegorman is 23metres (75feet) above sea level. Dublin airport is at 75metres above sea level


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    #944
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    dubhthach wrote: »
    Dublin has quite a gradual rise, for example Grangegorman is 23metres (75feet) above sea level. Dublin airport is at 75metres above sea level

    Yes, it's gradual, which makes it cyclable.

    Dublin Airport is around 70meters above sea level (Met.ie says 71, Wikipedia says 74). But it should be stressed, it's one of the highest areas around Dublin above sea level. And the quays in Dublin around 10m above sea level.

    It's an extrema example. For most of Dublin you're not talking about those heights above sea level.

    But even that's not imposable, by a long shot. My other half started from hardly cycling at all to cycling from the Liffey to Swords. She did so on a city bike. I was thinking it was craziness at the time. In fairness the Swords Road beside the airport is slightly less than 70m, about 10m less. But cycling isn't hard. It's isn't hard to get used to and it is easier again when you do.

    To give you an idea: From College Green to mid Dame Street is about 5m different and from Dame Street to Christchurch is around the same again. Can be done on a big lump of a DublinBike.


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    #945
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    Jack Noble wrote: »
    Yeats said it best:

    [SIZE=-1]"The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.[/SIZE]"

    That's exactly what we are seeing in the debate over public transport and projects like Metro, Dart and Luas.

    But so typical of the standard of debate and governance in this country since independence.

    Bollox! That quote is a mere easy cop out example of how certain entities would like it to be. Its disrespectful to many that have made points in the media that are valid and yet ignored. I include myself in this between 2003 and 2007.


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    #946
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    Bollox! That quote is a mere easy cop out example of how certain entities would like it to be. Its disrespectful to many that have made points in the media that are valid and yet ignored. I include myself in this between 2003 and 2007.

    Actually the quote states the truth.

    We yap and yap and yap instead of just building like every other country. Pathetic.

    The "Celtic Tiger" passed leaving a good m-way network and a crap public transport system in Dublin; ironically because of the endless "angels on a pinhead" bull that delayed and delayed the tunnels and tram-lines till the money was gone.

    If it was only affecting the navel-gazers I'd be experience some schedenfreude at the outcome. But is affects us all; not just the bicycle and lentil brigade.

    Dublin needs good public transport both inside and outside the M50. Thanks, ironically, to the endless bickering of the pro-public transport crowd, it now has neither.

    But keep talking & "debating" - it'll get some transport up and running, not.


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    #947
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    Actually the quote states the truth.

    We yap and yap and yap instead of just building like every other country. Pathetic.

    The "Celtic Tiger" passed leaving a good m-way network and a crap public transport system in Dublin; ironically because of the endless "angels on a pinhead" bull that delayed and delayed the tunnels and tram-lines till the money was gone.

    If it was only affecting the navel-gazers I'd be experience some schedenfreude at the outcome. But is affects us all; not just the bicycle and lentil brigade.

    Dublin needs good public transport both inside and outside the M50. Thanks, ironically, to the endless bickering of the pro-public transport crowd, it now has neither.

    But keep talking & "debating" - it'll get some transport up and running, not.

    Actually you are missing my point in your rush to shoot me down.

    This was the quote which was used in the context of slagging off McDonald and Myers. (which I have no problem with)
    "The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity." (Yeats)

    That's exactly what we are seeing in the debate over public transport and projects like Metro, Dart and Luas.

    But so typical of the standard of debate and governance in this country since independence.

    Now that quote may be applicable to politicians and certain journalists, but it automatically insults many people who have commentated here, in the media etc. and all in a positive, constructive and worthwhile fashion. These same people do not have the power to implement and a somewhat lesser ability to influence.

    The point is perfectly valid if made against the political establishment (which I believe is the point you are alluding to) but it has absolutely no relevance to many sensible commentators, lobbyists etc. They don't make the decisions. They merely try to help them get made. Therefore I'll keep talking and debating in the hope that eventually those that make decisions will listen. I have total conviction in everything I say.Their procrastination and poor decision making is an entirely different matter altogether and one which I have regularly been critical of. In fact much of what I have said since 2003 has unfortunately come to pass. It doesn't get anything built, but at least I can leave it behind as a form of education to future generations.


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    #948
    Jack Noble
    Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭Jack Noble


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    Actually you are missing my point in your rush to shoot me down.

    This was the quote which was used in the context of slagging off McDonald and Myers. (which I have no problem with)



    Now that quote may be applicable to politicians and certain journalists, but it automatically insults many people who have commentated here, in the media etc. and all in a positive, constructive and worthwhile fashion. These same people do not have the power to implement and a somewhat lesser ability to influence.

    The point is perfectly valid if made against the political establishment (which I believe is the point you are alluding to) but it has absolutely no relevance to many sensible commentators, lobbyists etc. They don't make the decisions. They merely try to help them get made. Therefore I'll keep talking and debating in the hope that eventually those that make decisions will listen. I have total conviction in everything I say.Their procrastination and poor decision making is an entirely different matter altogether and one which I have regularly been critical of. In fact much of what I have said since 2003 has unfortunately come to pass. It doesn't get anything built, but at least I can leave it behind as a form of education to future generations.

    DWC, I was referring to the public debate in the media surrounding public transport, Metro North, Dart Underground, Luas, etc, in the aftermath of McDonald's interview on Hook's show on Monday - not the debate here or the posters here. You have misunderstood what I said.

    But, in fairness to you, I should have been clearer in my initial post that I was referring to the media debate but as I put it in reply to this post
    Originally Posted by Zebra3 viewpost.gif
    It's shocking how much free reign [McDonald] and Myers get in the national media.

    I assumed, incorrectly, that would be evident. My bad there - never assume, eh?

    Let me be clear on the matter - I was in no way referring to the debate here and was not insulting posters here. This is one of the few places where there is reasoned and informed debate. However, the same cannot be said of other websites such as Politics.ie.

    However, my initial point stands. What I would say is 'bollocks' and 'a cop out' is the level of information available on the PT projects and the standard of public debate around them.

    In my opinion, the debate to date has been full of emotion, ignorance, prejudice, spin, spoof and, in certain cases, downright lies - on both sides of the argument.

    Much of the blame must go to the media because many journalists are poorly informed on the matters and show little curiosity on the issue.

    McDonald got away with blue murder on the Right Hook because the interviewer, George Hook, simply didn't have even the basic level of knowledge around the Metro project or public transport in general to challenge him. McDonald contradicted himself so many times on central issues that a reasonably informed and capable interviewer would have filleted him.

    Other interviewers who you would expect to be better informed and better equipped to question than Hook have also shown similar levels of ignorance. Examples include Pat Kenny, Matt Cooper, Richard Crowley, Marian Finucance and Miriam O'Callaghan.

    While we can complain about the media regarding much of the poor standard of debate and low level of information, the blame lies squarely with those behind the projects and other proponents.

    The previous govts did little or nothing to explain to the public the thinking behind Platform for Change and then Transport 21 - and why Metro and DartU were central to that and critical to the long-term future of Dublin and surrounding counties.

    When ministers did finally get round to publicly explaining Metro and Dart to the public, it was too late - the economy had imploded and ministers were now damaged goods. Valiant as the efforts were by the Green ministers, in particular, who would buy anything sold by Gormley, Ryan and Cuffe after the mess the govt had made since 2008? Dempsey has such a legacy for disastrous handling of various issues over the years, who would believe in anything he proposed?

    The public debate around Metro North has very poor and focused entirely on the imagined cost while very few people are aware of the PPP element. The RPA can accept the blame there for the way it has handled the project and the secret way it has gone about the tender process without explaining it to the public.

    Much of what has been said in public by opponents has been, as you said, 'bollocks' - but it has gone unchallenged and has gained currency. People out there now actually believe it will cost €5bn, €8bn, even €15bn, that it only serves the airport, that it is a standalone line, that Stephen's Green will be destroyed, etc. McDonald, Myers, O'Leary, Carroll, etc, have been allowed to spout lies and the media has let them do so because interviewers are unable or unwilling to challenge them.

    As for Dart Underground, how many people beyond these boards and in govt are even aware of the project? I could count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I have heard it discussed on radio or TV. Little or nothing is known about the project, how important it is and the benefits it will bring for people all over Dublin and the surrounding counties, and the country as a whole.

    How many people out there actually understand that Metro and Dart are key components of a network? How many people understand that people will be able to hope from Metro to Dart or Luas to complete their journeys? How many people understand that buses alone cannot deliver the type of public transport system that a city like Dublin requires and needs into the future?

    As I said earlier in this post, nothing has been done to date to explain Metro and Dart in the context of Platform for Change and Transport 21 - after 10 and six years respectively. Both projects now for the core of 2030 Vision, the GDA transport strategy for the next 20 years. How many people are aware of this?

    But, if I may finish on a more positive note, we have a new government and two new ministers responsible for public transport. If Fine Gael and Labour decide to stick with T21/2030 Vision and to proceed with Metro North initially, then let us hope they take ownership of public transport and get out there and strongly advocate the planned Metro-Dart-Luas system over the next decade.


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    #949
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    Jack Noble wrote: »
    DWC, I was referring to the public debate in the media surrounding public transport, Metro North, Dart Underground, Luas, etc, in the aftermath of McDonald's interview on Hook's show on Monday - not the debate here or the posters here. You have misunderstood what I said.

    But, in fairness to you, I should have been clearer in my initial post that I was referring to the media debate but as I put it in reply to this post



    I assumed, incorrectly, that would be evident. My bad there - never assume, eh?

    Let me be clear on the matter - I was in no way referring to the debate here and was not insulting posters here. This is one of the few places where there is reasoned and informed debate. However, the same cannot be said of other websites such as Politics.ie.

    However, my initial point stands. What I would say is 'bollocks' and 'a cop out' is the level of information available on the PT projects and the standard of public debate around them.

    In my opinion, the debate to date has been full of emotion, ignorance, prejudice, spin, spoof and, in certain cases, downright lies - on both sides of the argument.

    Much of the blame must go to the media because many journalists are poorly informed on the matters and show little curiosity on the issue.

    McDonald got away with blue murder on the Right Hook because the interviewer, George Hook, simply didn't have even the basic level of knowledge around the Metro project or public transport in general to challenge him. McDonald contradicted himself so many times on central issues that a reasonably informed and capable interviewer would have filleted him.

    Other interviewers who you would expect to be better informed and better equipped to question than Hook have also shown similar levels of ignorance. Examples include Pat Kenny, Matt Cooper, Richard Crowley, Marian Finucance and Miriam O'Callaghan.

    While we can complain about the media regarding much of the poor standard of debate and low level of information, the blame lies squarely with those behind the projects and other proponents.

    The previous govts did little or nothing to explain to the public the thinking behind Platform for Change and then Transport 21 - and why Metro and DartU were central to that and critical to the long-term future of Dublin and surrounding counties.

    When ministers did finally get round to publicly explaining Metro and Dart to the public, it was too late - the economy had imploded and ministers were now damaged goods. Valiant as the efforts were by the Green ministers, in particular, who would buy anything sold by Gormley, Ryan and Cuffe after the mess the govt had made since 2008? Dempsey has such a legacy for disastrous handling of various issues over the years, who would believe in anything he proposed?

    The public debate around Metro North has very poor and focused entirely on the imagined cost while very few people are aware of the PPP element. The RPA can accept the blame there for the way it has handled the project and the secret way it has gone about the tender process without explaining it to the public.

    Much of what has been said in public by opponents has been, as you said, 'bollocks' - but it has gone unchallenged and has gained currency. People out there now actually believe it will cost €5bn, €8bn, even €15bn, that it only serves the airport, that it is a standalone line, that Stephen's Green will be destroyed, etc. McDonald, Myers, O'Leary, Carroll, etc, have been allowed to spout lies and the media has let them do so because interviewers are unable or unwilling to challenge them.

    As for Dart Underground, how many people beyond these boards and in govt are even aware of the project? I could count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I have heard it discussed on radio or TV. Little or nothing is known about the project, how important it is and the benefits it will bring for people all over Dublin and the surrounding counties, and the country as a whole.

    How many people out there actually understand that Metro and Dart are key components of a network? How many people understand that people will be able to hope from Metro to Dart or Luas to complete their journeys? How many people understand that buses alone cannot deliver the type of public transport system that a city like Dublin requires and needs into the future?

    As I said earlier in this post, nothing has been done to date to explain Metro and Dart in the context of Platform for Change and Transport 21 - after 10 and six years respectively. Both projects now for the core of 2030 Vision, the GDA transport strategy for the next 20 years. How many people are aware of this?

    But, if I may finish on a more positive note, we have a new government and two new ministers responsible for public transport. If Fine Gael and Labour decide to stick with T21/2030 Vision and to proceed with Metro North initially, then let us hope they take ownership of public transport and get out there and strongly advocate the planned Metro-Dart-Luas system over the next decade.

    Fair enough. But what goads me the most is how in late 2004 so much effort was put into promoting DU by Platform 11 and the momentum continued up to and beyond the launch of T21. I did many many radio/press interviews about its importance and in some ways aided Barry Kennys cause. However since its inclusion in T21, my successors in Platform 11/RUI have utterly failed to keep it on the agenda while developing into a real life Hornby trainset fan club. From a personal perspective I always realised the importance of keeping DU on the media radar because IE have more on their plates than the RPA. But without an effective lobby, its disappearing day by day in the public domain. Sadly my contributions cannot extend beyond comment here due to work commitments.

    Remember this Jack, DU was in the media at least every month when I was at the helm in RUI along with former colleagues.


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    #950
    Jack Noble
    Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭Jack Noble


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    Fair enough. But what goads me the most is how in late 2004 so much effort was put into promoting DU by Platform 11 and the momentum continued up to and beyond the launch of T21. I did many many radio/press interviews about its importance and in some ways aided Barry Kennys cause. However since its inclusion in T21, my successors in Platform 11/RUI have utterly failed to keep it on the agenda while developing into a real life Hornby trainset fan club. From a personal perspective I always realised the importance of keeping DU on the media radar because IE have more on their plates than the RPA. But without an effective lobby, its disappearing day by day in the public domain. Sadly my contributions cannot extend beyond comment here due to work commitments.

    Remember this Jack, DU was in the media at least every month when I was at the helm in RUI along with former colleagues.

    I agree with you 100% there, DW. Couldn't help but notice the lack of activity on RUI forum and site. Not much has been happening there in last while.


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    #951
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Opinion piece on this in today's Independent:
    DART Underground is the only plan worth salvaging

    THE infamous e-voting machines cost taxpayers €54m before they were scrapped.

    Try this for size: a total of €183m of taxpayers' money has been spent so far on three public transport projects -- Metro, Dart Underground and the Luas link-up.

    Two of them are about to be scrapped because there's no cash to build them, while a major question mark hangs over the third.

    The Dart Underground is a terrific project that would create for the first time a properly integrated rail, bus and tram network. It is the only one of the three that can achieve this objective.

    Passengers arriving at Heuston or Connolly stations would be able to access the entire capital and beyond.

    Plus, if the Dart Underground goes ahead it will connect the Luas lines, obviating the need for a €180m link up between the two city centre lines.

    The new line will dramatically increase frequency and capacity for commuters on the Dart Northern, Maynooth and Kildare lines -- the three fastest-growing population corridors in the country -- and relieve the congestion at Connolly Station.

    The second project, the Metro overground-underground to Swords and the airport, has been paraded as the Rolls Royce of public transport projects.

    Sure, it will open up Swords and north Fingal through a Luas-type service and take many cars off a key artery into the city.

    It was predicated on huge swathes of development taking place in the northern fringe of the city, now a truly remote prospect.

    However, the Metro will cost a lot more than the Dart Underground, and will crucially not deliver anywhere near the same benefits for commuters.

    The third project, to link up the two unconnected Luas lines in the city centre, is the poor relation. Few expect this to get past the starting blocks.

    Brave

    A total of €135m has already been spent on the Metro, and this is expected to have risen to €200m by the end of the year.

    It will take a brave Cabinet to write off this investment, but the alternative is a total bill of up to €4bn for the Metro.

    Also, key Government politicians bagged more than a few votes on the promise of the Metro passing by the doorsteps of their constituents.

    Two preferred bidders have been selected to build and operate the service. And the European Investment Bank has approved a €500m loan for the project.

    If the Metro is approved and the bulldozers move into the city centre, O'Connell St on Easter Sunday 2016 would resemble the day after the Easter Rising in 1916.

    Surely, the easiest and cheapest option would be just to build a spur from the Dublin to Belfast rail line to the Airport.

    This has already been suggested by Irish Rail, to no avail, even though the price tag is €400m.

    If and when big money becomes available again, then we can revisit the other projects.
    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/dart-underground-is-only-plan-worth-salvaging-2613960.html


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    #952
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Treacy is the Indos equivalent of Frank McD. Sadly that correspondents tendency to pull numbers like "€4bn" for MN from arses is also evident in this piece. :( We can do 1916 in 2016 if we throw some ply across O'Connell St ...if we have to :D


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    #953
    paulm17781
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 ✭✭✭paulm17781


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Treacy is the Indos equivalent of Frank McD.

    Still, nice to see some realistic, positive press for DU instead of the usual "which replicates existing infrastrucute" lark we normally get. :)


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    #954
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,319 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    obviating the need for a €180m link up between the two city centre lines
    Sure who'd want to have the possibility of easily interchanging cars between Line A & C depots (or Line D, if ever built). As it is we should be thinking about finding a way to run 1435mm (albeit without overhead) to a quay beyond the Point for deliveries rather than clogging up the roads up through Wicklow :D:D:D


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    #955
    Jack Noble
    Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭Jack Noble


    Since Leo Varadkar made his 'One out of three' statement on Thursday, I've had a good think about this and come to a considered opinion - it MUST be Dart Underground.

    DU is by far the most important project which will deliver the most benefits for Dublin.

    And because it has a much longer construction period, the funding can be allocated over a much longer period.

    Metro North can and should be kept on ice and the bond market/PPP situation monitored until it becomes favourable. Also, if the the govt really waqnts to proceed with MN, it should seek 100% PPP funding and offer attractive repayment/operation terms to private sector over the longer term, 40 to 50 years instead of 25 - with equally attractive buyout terms for the State after 10, 20, 30 years, etc.

    It should also be considered lumping Metro North and West together in such a contract. With DU aleady built by the State, then MN/MW should prove more attractive. Govt should also consider the MN-Green line integration as part of this contract - PPP consortium build MN to SSG and get it running and then move on to extend tunnel to Ranelagh without disrupting MN service.

    If DU can be built by State/CIE followed by MN/MW by PPP, then the State can later progress the planned Luas projects, Lucan F, BXD, BXD2 to Finglas, Poolbeg extensions, etc, when the

    Under no circumstances should Luas BXD be chosed ahead of Dart or Metro. If it is, it will signal the end for both and victory for political expediency over the correct, long-term policy planning.

    While some may see the current situation re MN/DU as the end for both, I see this as an opportunity for govt to get things right despite the current financial situation - if they decide to build Dart first followed by putting out a new Metro PPP tender when the economy begins to recover in three or four years and our debt situation has stabilised and we are no longer such a big risk for international investors.

    Regarding Leo's kite re 50 to 100 year lease/100% private sector funding for Metro, maybe the Minister should give Cormac Rabbitt of the Mitsui Dublin Metro and Dargan Project a call. After all, he believes such a system could be self-funding.

    Chose Dart Underground, Leo - and then offer Metro North and West, with Green Line integration/extension to Rabbitt to put together a new consortium to finance, build and operate for 40 or 50 years.

    That's my thoughts on the matter. I've also posted this in the Metro North thread to get the debate going.


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    #956
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    Jack Noble wrote: »
    Since Leo Varadkar made his 'One out of three' statement on Thursday, I've had a good think about this and come to a considered opinion - it MUST be Dart Underground.

    DU is by far the most important project which will deliver the most benefits for Dublin.

    And because it has a much longer construction period, the funding can be allocated over a much longer period.

    Metro North can and should be kept on ice and the bond market/PPP situation monitored until it becomes favourable. Also, if the the govt really waqnts to proceed with MN, it should seek 100% PPP funding and offer attractive repayment/operation terms to private sector over the longer term, 40 to 50 years instead of 25 - with equally attractive buyout terms for the State after 10, 20, 30 years, etc.

    It should also be considered lumping Metro North and West together in such a contract. With DU aleady built by the State, then MN/MW should prove more attractive. Govt should also consider the MN-Green line integration as part of this contract - PPP consortium build MN to SSG and get it running and then move on to extend tunnel to Ranelagh without disrupting MN service.

    If DU can be built by State/CIE followed by MN/MW by PPP, then the State can later progress the planned Luas projects, Lucan F, BXD, BXD2 to Finglas, Poolbeg extensions, etc, when the

    Under no circumstances should Luas BXD be chosed ahead of Dart or Metro. If it is, it will signal the end for both and victory for political expediency over the correct, long-term policy planning.

    While some may see the current situation re MN/DU as the end for both, I see this as an opportunity for govt to get things right despite the current financial situation - if they decide to build Dart first followed by putting out a new Metro PPP tender when the economy begins to recover in three or four years and our debt situation has stabilised and we are no longer such a big risk for international investors.

    Regarding Leo's kite re 50 to 100 year lease/100% private sector funding for Metro, maybe the Minister should give Cormac Rabbitt of the Mitsui Dublin Metro and Dargan Project a call. After all, he believes such a system could be self-funding.

    Chose Dart Underground, Leo - and then offer Metro North and West, with Green Line integration/extension to Rabbitt to put together a new consortium to finance, build and operate for 40 or 50 years.

    That's my thoughts on the matter. I've also posted this in the Metro North thread to get the debate going.

    With respect Jack, Cormac Rabbitte and his crew may suffer the same problem raising finance. Our problem here is two fold. The state has no money and an unproven will to implement huge projects like this. Secondly raising finance on the international markets to build something in Ireland is not an attractive option at the moment.

    As ever, I could be wrong, but so far I've been right. (Even if it pisses me right off.)


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    #957
    Jack Noble
    Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭Jack Noble


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    With respect Jack, Cormac Rabbitte and his crew may suffer the same problem raising finance. Our problem here is two fold. The state has no money and an unproven will to implement huge projects like this. Secondly raising finance on the international markets to build something in Ireland is not an attractive option at the moment.

    As ever, I could be wrong, but so far I've been right. (Even if it pisses me right off.)

    That's why I suggest stalling Metro until the debt/bond situation improves while moving ahead with DartU with our own resources.

    And I don't believe it will be that long, TBH - maybe a year or two, possibly less. Just look at the developments over the last week - taken off creditwatch by S&P, positive noises about Irish economy, buy Irish bonds recommendations from Goldman Sachs and others, 10-yr yields heading south, AIB and BoI shares heading north, deposit positions improving. Things are moving in the right direction, albeit very slowly.


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    #958
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    Jack Noble wrote: »
    That's why I suggest stalling Metro until the debt/bond situation improves while moving ahead with DartU with our own resources.

    And I don't believe it will be that long, TBH - maybe a year or two, possibly less. Just look at the developments over the last week - taken off creditwatch by S&P, positive noises about Irish economy, buy Irish bonds recommendations from Goldman Sachs and others, 10-yr yields heading south, AIB and BoI shares heading north, deposit positions improving. Things are moving in the right direction, albeit very slowly.

    All at a huge cost to the Irish economy Jack. Look at it this way. A Mother gives a blood transfusion to her sick child and becomes weak while the child recovers. The recovering child needs the support of its Mother, but she is too poorly to provide that support. The child ends up in the care of someone else. The financial markets are a double edged sword in our case. The state has rescued them and the state gets its money from you and me to pay the bill with a little help of a loan or two. Ultimately it has to be paid back. The banks may flourish again someday, but

    1. They will never ever lend like they used to.

    and

    2. You and me will be paying the bill via austere budgets. This renders the state unable to finance a whole lot of infrastructure projects for an undefinable time as they are repaying a huge loan to make us look credible to the markets.

    Ireland will be a slave to bondholders for a long time yet. Their guarantees first and our services second.


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    #959
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,121 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Treacy is the Indos equivalent of Frank McD. Sadly that correspondents tendency to pull numbers like "€4bn" for MN from arses is also evident in this piece. :( We can do 1916 in 2016 if we throw some ply across O'Connell St ...if we have to :D
    Maybe having O'Connell street looking like a bomb hit it would add to the authenticity...


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    #960
    popebenny16
    Registered Users Posts: 2,461 ✭✭✭popebenny16


    the fact that it is of concern that there will be building works in 2016 on o connell street and this is a massive problem with the two most important infrastructure projects we have ever had just sums it all up for me.

    As for the cost neutral jobs budget initiative plan on the back of a packet of Superking - put simply if they chuck the thousands of jobs MN and DU will bring down the toilet then its time for everyone to go.


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    #961
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    popebenny16 wrote: »
    the fact that it is of concern that there will be building works in 2016 on o connell street and this is a massive problem with the two most important infrastructure projects we have ever had just sums it all up for me.

    As for the cost neutral jobs budget initiative plan on the back of a packet of Superking - put simply if they chuck the thousands of jobs MN and DU will bring down the toilet then its time for everyone to go.

    Everything was on the back of a packet of Super Kings. Its the Irish way. FF talk it up, **** it up and then FG come in and cut it when they realise they have run out of a road that was fiction in the first place. Add to this the very verifiable political attitude to public transport and we continue around in circles while getting absolutely nowhere. (literally)


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