National Postcodes to be introduced

GJG · 21-07-2015 2:49pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

Maybe CnaG could help by encouraging people to update their details by emailing eircode ? It shouldn't be a major ordeal to solve it would just take a few months to process all the changes.

I don't think this is something the government needs to slash more cash on.

I doubt it, since (as they must be tired of explaining) Eircode don't have the power or authority to change anyone's address; but I guess you mean An Post/Geodirectory, in which case I think a better solution would be to get Geodirectory to allow crowdsourcing of translating and correcting the errors.

This is remarkably accurate for Google Translate, fixing a few thousand addresses is peanuts by comparison, and since properties can now be uniquely identified, it shouldn't be too hard to set up an interface.

seamus · 21-07-2015 3:04pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm trying (and failing) to reconcile this claim with the argument that we should have had a code based solely on GPS co-ordinates.

Heh, getting tangled up in his own arguments. I'd say he's just throwing criticisms at the system without considering the fact that some apply to all systems.

GPS in effect can be infinitely accurate if you want it to be. You can get positioning down to the micrometre accuracy by just adding more decimal places to the co-ordinates.

Transport companies' experience of GPS routing is more likely accuracy down the to nearest 10m, which then requires a house number or name to help you identify the exact one.

I guess his argument was supposed to be that a GPS-based code could be set up in such a way that both the general location and the number of the house would be discernable from the code. This could also be used for situation where you have multiple properties at the same location.

Whereas the GPS coords provided by Eircode will lead you to the location but the random digits won't help you identify if you want house no. 21 or 22.

I think that was supposed to be his argument, but his ire may have clouded his clarity somewhat.

TheChizler · 21-07-2015 3:57pm

That and ignoring the fact that the code is designed to be used in tandem with the address...

bluesteel · 21-07-2015 4:52pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm trying (and failing) to reconcile this claim with the argument that we should have had a code based solely on GPS co-ordinates.

I don't really understand the claim in the first place...

Sam Russell · 21-07-2015 6:17pm

TheChizler wrote: »

That and ignoring the fact that the code is designed to be used in tandem with the address...

If people claim Eircode is a unique address, and the target is Flat 12 in a block of 16, how can you identify - using Eircode alone - which flat is the one you are looking for?

Randomised codes do not help in this situation.

irishgeo · 21-07-2015 6:46pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

If people claim Eircode is a unique address, and the target is Flat 12 in a block of 16, how can you identify - using Eircode alone - which flat is the one you are looking for?

Randomised codes do not help in this situation.

no code can do that unless you look it up in the database.

GPS no
EIRCODE no
LOC8

OU812 · 21-07-2015 7:14pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

If people claim Eircode is a unique address, and the target is Flat 12 in a block of 16, how can you identify - using Eircode alone - which flat is the one you are looking for?

Randomised codes do not help in this situation.

All you have to do is enter the code on the wircode website & it'll give you the address

oscarBravo · 21-07-2015 7:22pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

If people claim Eircode is a unique address, and the target is Flat 12 in a block of 16, how can you identify - using Eircode alone - which flat is the one you are looking for?

Why would you use the Eircode alone? Why would you ignore the fact that you're looking for Flat 12?

Sam Russell · 21-07-2015 7:30pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

Why would you use the Eircode alone? Why would you ignore the fact that you're looking for Flat 12?

Eircode fans have been declaring that Eircode should be sufficient but clearly it is not. Unless the letterbox includes the Eircode it cannot be found. And even if it did, how would you find the correct one when faced with 16 random codes.

Postie needs a name in rural areas and a flat number in a block of flats, assuming he can find the block in the first place.

MBSnr · 21-07-2015 7:31pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

Why would you use the Eircode alone? Why would you ignore the fact that you're looking for Flat 12?

Because in his world you'd just have an eircode and magically appear at the flat/apartment complex without reading the whole address, looking up the code online or using a mobile device.

In other words, a scenario that is unlikely to occur.

bluesteel · 21-07-2015 7:31pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

Why would you use the Eircode alone? Why would you ignore the fact that you're looking for Flat 12?

because Eircodes are the New Irish Water and should be boycotted.

wait, that doesn't make sense

/s

GJG · 21-07-2015 8:08pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Eircode fans have been declaring that Eircode should be sufficient but clearly it is not. Unless the letterbox includes the Eircode it cannot be found. And even if it did, how would you find the correct one when faced with 16 random codes..

Can you cite an example?

Sam Russell wrote: »

Postie needs a name in rural areas and a flat number in a block of flats, assuming he can find the block in the first place.

But in rural areas, there are many roads where, because of subdivision of farms into plots for brothers, cousins and so on, the name isn't enough.

Sure, if you are making an effort to be obtuse, you can concoct an improbable hypothetical, but in the real world the problem is that you have old Jimmy Murphy, his son young Jimmy, and their cousin Jimmy, back from America, all living within a few hundred meters on the same road.

When a letter arrives for Mr J Murphy, the postie will now very quickly learn to recognise enough of the eircode to distinguish them. No need for equipment, no need to learn very many codes, just remember enough to distinguish easily-confused addressees.

Oh, and that's also why adjacent properties shouldn't have identical or near-identical codes.

Sam Russell · 21-07-2015 8:16pm

GJG wrote: »

Can you cite an example?

I thought I just did. A block of flats. Without the full address, a particular flat cannot be found.

In rural areas, armed with the Eircode, how do you find the particular house given that no-one will have their Eircode displayed?

MBSnr · 21-07-2015 8:31pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I thought I just did. A block of flats. Without the full address, a particular flat cannot be found.

In rural areas, armed with the Eircode, how do you find the particular house given that no-one will have their Eircode displayed?

Arghhhh.

OK so you have an Eircode. Just one and NO OTHER DETAIL. You were blindfolded and then a man appeared with an Eircode and asked you to go there.
Then you start looking for the house. But where to start...if only there was a means of looking up the eircode?

OK so you have a Loc8 code. Just one and NO OTHER DETAIL. You were blindfolded and then a man appeared with an Loc8 code and asked you to go there
Then you start looking for the house. But where to start...if only there was a means of looking up the Loc8 code?

OK so you have GPS coords. Just one and NO OTHER DETAIL. You were blindfolded and then a man appeared with a GPS coord and asked you to go there
Then you start looking for the house. But where to start...if only there was a means of looking up the GPS coords?

OK so you have the HOUSE NAME. Just one and NO OTHER DETAIL. You were blindfolded and then a man appeared with a HOUSE NAME and asked you to go there
Then you start looking for the house. But where to start...if only there was a means of looking up the house name? (tougher this one... that's why it's 4th - and also the method you propose over others...)

Wait same thing applies to any code/house name. Real world situations only please.

threeiron · 21-07-2015 9:09pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

If people claim Eircode is a unique address, and the target is Flat 12 in a block of 16, how can you identify - using Eircode alone - which flat is the one you are looking for?

Randomised codes do not help in this situation.

You can use the Eircode to find an address in many different ways. If it is a letter for an apartment then typically the postman leaves it in the lobby and the inhabitants collect their post as they know their own Eircodes. If you want to find the Eircode in a database then you can search for it. If you want to find the postal address for an Eircode, you can search Eircode finder. If you want to find the parcel in the van you look through them until you find those with the Eircode you are looking for. If you want the insurance company to find your policy, they can search for it using your Eircode. It will become a regularly used method for companies querying their databases. It can be used to identify persons living at the same address even if they have given the address in different formats.

It makes no difference whether the code is random or sequential in your example!

threeiron · 21-07-2015 9:22pm

clewbays wrote: »

One week in what are people’s highs and lows. I have listed my top and bottom 5 in order below.

Highs
1. Accuracy of An Post delivery
2. Quality of map data on Eircode finder
3. Number of hits on Eircode Finder
4. Creation of maps by Boards members
5. Discussion on concept of an address

Lows
1. ECAD and ECAF not yet on sale
2. Some very large routing keys
3. Not yet supported by Google maps and no official map
4. Lack of information on how to raise a query on address and coordinates
5. Continued resistance by FTAI and Loc8 fans

Generally agree but would add acceptance of a postcode that is unique for each address as one of the highs.

FishOnABike · 21-07-2015 9:33pm

BailMeOut wrote: »

How would a GPS system work with buildings where you have a different address on each floor of the same building?

Also how does a GPS post code help with computerized 'routing' where two locations are adjacent to one another but from a transportation and delivery point of view are a very long way away. e.g. addresses on opposite side of a river, peninsula or mountain?

At least two approaches could be used for computerized routing.

1. For a static solution. Each individual operator can define their own GPS / location based delivery areas as a series of coordinate defined polygons. All geo-code based postal codes calculated to be within the bounds of a particular polygon would be in that delivery area. The operator would define their delivery areas taking geographical features such as mountains, rivers, lakes, peninsulas etc into account.

2. For a dynamic solution. The geo-code based postal codes for a day's deliveries could be overlaid on a digital roadmap. This would then be the classic computer science traveling salesman problem. A near optimal route could then be calculated for the day's deliveries.

A combination of 1. and 2. could be used to first coarse sort items for delivery into delivery areas and then optimise delivery routes within each delivery area.

With a geo-code based postal code this could all be done without reference to the eircode database.

ukoda · 21-07-2015 10:29pm

http://www.gamma.ie/blog/feargal-oneill/2015/07/21/irish-businesses-need-eircodes-7-reasons-why

Worth a read, some very valid points made

FishOnABike · 22-07-2015 12:35am

ukoda wrote: »

http://www.gamma.ie/blog/feargal-oneill/2015/07/21/irish-businesses-need-eircodes-7-reasons-why

Worth a read, some very valid points made

The points made are valid for almost any postal code system. They are not an argument for the specific solution implemented by eircode. Conflating the benefits of a postal code with eircode is a bit of an intellectual sleight of hand.

Of the seven points only 1 and 6 would have required paid access to the An Post / Eircode geodirectory database if a GE0-C0DE based postal code system was used.

The closed random nature of eircodes effectively locks in end users to having to use a paid for lookup service provided by eircode.

Using the same commercial entity to design and operate our postal code system was a fundamental flaw as there is far too much scope for a conflict of interest to design for private profit rather than public utility.

Publishing postal code to location data similar to the code point open information available to download for free for all UK postal codes, while less efficient than a self contained geo-code would help alleviate some of the complaints about the closed nature of eircodes. I wonder will we see this happen any time soon.:rolleyes:

ukoda · 22-07-2015 7:57am

FishOnABike wrote: »

The points made are valid for almost any postal code system. They are not an argument for the specific solution implemented by eircode. Conflating the benefits of a postal code with eircode is a bit of an intellectual sleight of hand.

Of the seven points only 1 and 6 would have required paid access to the An Post / Eircode geodirectory database if a GE0-C0DE based postal code system was used.

The closed random nature of eircodes effectively locks in end users to having to use a paid for lookup service provided by eircode.

Using the same commercial entity to design and operate our postal code system was a fundamental flaw as there is far too much scope for a conflict of interest to design for private profit rather than public utility.

Publishing postal code to location data similar to the code point open information available to download for free for all UK postal codes, while less efficient than a self contained geo-code would help alleviate some of the complaints about the closed nature of eircodes. I wonder will we see this happen any time soon.:rolleyes:

A geo only based code cannot do points 1,2 and 6 as it's not linked to a database

plodder · 22-07-2015 8:09am

ukoda wrote: »

A geo only based code cannot do points 1,2 and 6 as it's not linked to a database

Though you can link a geocode to a database exactly the same as a random code. The only difference is that a geocode is better in general for navigation as it covers locations other than those in the database as well.

FishOnABike · 22-07-2015 12:09pm

ukoda wrote: »

A geo only based code cannot do points 1,2 and 6 as it's not linked to a database

From the article

2. EIRCODES WILL ALLOW YOU TO DEFINITIVELY IDENTIFY ANY SPECIFIC HOME OR BUSINESS IN IRELAND

Before Eircodes, - “my address is Ballyhockey, Co Leitrim” – it could be any of these 10 houses. Only the postman knows where I live. If I want to defraud it’s quite easy, I just give different addresses.

After Eircodes, - “my address is Ballyhockey, Co Leitrim” – And your Eircode ? “AS2 D2F2” . “Ah you’re that house”. “We notice that you’re not located next door to the Fireworks factory and have halved your home insurance premium as a result”. All good.

A geo-code based postal code can identify a delivery point to within 3 to 4 metres. I think that is specific enough to identify any specific home or business in Ireland.

An Post successfully deliver 98% of the post next day so they must be good at delivering it to the specified address. If "I just give different addresses" the post will be delivered to those different addresses.

If you're talking about a variant of the same address you could also fudge the eircode with a deliberate mistake - it will still get there as An Post say the eircode is optional. You can also use real other addresses (and corresponding postal code whether eircode or a geo-code) if you want to defraud quite easily.

In your second scenario - "and your postal code ?", "GE0-C0DE", "Ah you're that house" - the exact location can be identified and its proximity the fireworks factory, floodplain, area with higher/lower breakin/car theft incidence easily identified from the insurance companies own internal data without having to refer to and pay for access to eircodes ECAF or ECAD databases.

Carawaystick · 22-07-2015 12:26pm

Letter in the IT today pointing out that the return address on her letter from eircode informing her of her eircode, has no eircode in it.

OssianSmyth · 22-07-2015 12:44pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

Letter in the IT today pointing out that the return address on her letter from eircode informing her of her eircode, has no eircode in it.

that's because there are no eircodes for PO Boxes - this is probably a mistaken policy as it allows postal delivery points without even a shared eircode.

GJG · 22-07-2015 1:05pm

FishOnABike wrote: »

From the article

A geo-code based postal code can identify a delivery point to within 3 to 4 metres. I think that is specific enough to identify any specific home or business in Ireland.

An Post successfully deliver 98% of the post next day so they must be good at delivering it to the specified address. If "I just give different addresses" the post will be delivered to those different addresses.

If you're talking about a variant of the same address you could also fudge the eircode with a deliberate mistake - it will still get there as An Post say the eircode is optional. You can also use real other addresses (and corresponding postal code whether eircode or a geo-code) if you want to defraud quite easily.

In your second scenario - "and your postal code ?", "GE0-C0DE", "Ah you're that house" - the exact location can be identified and its proximity the fireworks factory, floodplain, area with higher/lower breakin/car theft incidence easily identified from the insurance companies own internal data without having to refer to and pay for access to eircodes ECAF or ECAD databases.

You are correct that a letter with an incorrect Eircode would most likely get delivered, but you are missing the fraud-prevention capabilities of Eircode. Each feature, it is true, can be circumvented, but the features don't stand alone, they all go together. Remember that Eircode is one-to-one, exactly one for each property, unlike geocode systems that have many codes for one house, and some codes that are shared by two houses. The Eircode database is also available, so companies can check to ensure that the code they are given is real, and relates to the property in question.

You can bet that every insurance policy will require an Eircode. When a claim is made, every insurance company will check the Eircode against the insured address, and check for multiple policies or claims against the same address. This is only possible with one-to-one codes. (Insurance companies are allowed to pool this information.)

I suspect that the insurance companies will also invest in the database to check as the policy is taken out. The employee first asks for the Eircode, and sees the address come up on their screen. They get the caller to confirm the address anyway, and investigate if there is a discrepancy.

A fake code is spotted immediately;
a wrong-but-similar real code will give an utterly different address;
a real code for a similar address code will be strikingly different

If the code was sequential or hierarchical, neighbouring codes would be very similar, undermining this feature.

There are good real reasons for not using a sequential or hierarchical code. We don't have any ill-effect from having the last four digits of our landline number randomised, the same is true of postcodes.

Sam Russell · 22-07-2015 1:17pm

Why do we type in Boards.ie to get to this site instead of 89.234.66.107

Oh, yea - it is easy to remember. DNS servers are used to convert memorable internet addresses instead of IP addresses that all alike automatically but have a one to one relationship with the actual site name.

Why do we invent a system of random postcodes for houses without the equivalent DNS server? Oh, yea, we need to monetise it.

ukoda · 22-07-2015 1:32pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Why do we type in Boards.ie to get to this site instead of 89.234.66.107

Oh, yea - it is easy to remember. DNS servers are used to convert memorable internet addresses instead of IP addresses that all alike automatically but have a one to one relationship with the actual site name.

Why do we invent a system of random postcodes for houses without the equivalent DNS server? Oh, yea, we need to monetise it.

And there was me saving the URL as a favourite so I could just click on it, if only I'd known about this typing thing before now!

It's not a fair comparison.

plodder · 22-07-2015 1:39pm

GJG wrote: »

You are correct that a letter with an incorrect Eircode would most likely get delivered, but you are missing the fraud-prevention capabilities of Eircode. Each feature, it is true, can be circumvented, but the features don't stand alone, they all go together. Remember that Eircode is one-to-one, exactly one for each property, unlike geocode systems that have many codes for one house, and some codes that are shared by two houses. The Eircode database is also available, so companies can check to ensure that the code they are given is real, and relates to the property in question.

I'll just point out once again, that you can use a database with a geocode, if you want unique codes per building which gives you all the benefits below. I've always been sceptical that unique codes for units within a building were worth having. It's all the more true, I think now it's clear that Eircodes on their own can't possibly be used to locate such properties.

You can bet that every insurance policy will require an Eircode. When a claim is made, every insurance company will check the Eircode against the insured address, and check for multiple policies or claims against the same address. This is only possible with one-to-one codes. (Insurance companies are allowed to pool this information.)

I suspect that the insurance companies will also invest in the database to check as the policy is taken out. The employee first asks for the Eircode, and sees the address come up on their screen. They get the caller to confirm the address anyway, and investigate if there is a discrepancy.
A fake code is spotted immediately;

a wrong-but-similar real code will give an utterly different address;

a real code for a similar address code will be strikingly different

If the code was sequential or hierarchical, neighbouring codes would be very similar, undermining this feature.

People don't have a problem distinguishing similar (but different) addresses. So, it's hard to see this being a significant advantage of Eircode. How often does it happen that post gets misaddressed as "your name" @ your neighbour's address? I've never seen it happen. Your post might get delivered to your neighbour by mistake, but that's a different issue.

There are good real reasons for not using a sequential or hierarchical code. We don't have any ill-effect from having the last four digits of our landline number randomised, the same is true of postcodes.

Telephone numbers are only used for calling people and certainly never for navigation. So, I dont think the comparison is valid.

oscarBravo · 22-07-2015 1:52pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Why do we invent a system of random postcodes for houses without the equivalent DNS server?

You think we should have a postcode system that requires a distributed, redundant hierarchy of servers to service address resolution requests?

Not a very useful analogy when you actually think it through.

Sam Russell · 22-07-2015 1:57pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

You think we should have a postcode system that requires a distributed, redundant hierarchy of servers to service address resolution requests?

Not a very useful analogy when you actually think it through.

No, why do we invent a postcode system based on random numbers, or worse, random letters and numbers? It is at least a fixed length code unlike the one the UK has.

I never mentioned anything about distributed, redundant hierarchy of servers to service address resolution requests - just a decent design without this requirement.

National Postcodes to be introduced

Comments