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Connolly Commuter / Intercity Services about to get even slower

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  • 02-12-2015 9:52am
    #1
    techdiver
    Registered Users Posts: 3,089 ✭✭✭


    So, I have been hearing for quite some time about this great city centre resignalling project that will increase the throughput of trains through connolly thus improving the service and increasing capacity. Although when it will actually arrive is anyone's guess. Consistent with the public transport offerings in Ireland. :rolleyes:

    So yesterday I hear about the draft timetables for connolly and I excitedly go to the irish rail site for a look at what improvements my commute on the already ridiculously slow trains from Mullingar will have....

    If I look at 2 trains I get regularly, the 7.26am from Mullingar to Connolly (the 5.45am from Sligo) arriving at 8.47am and the 5.05pm Connolly to Mullingar arriving at 6.14pm I can see the following changes. The morning train will now leave Mullingar at 7.14am and arrive in Connolly at 8.41am. This is a 6 minute increase in journey time. The 5.05pm train leaves at the same time but is now timetabled to arrive in Mullingar at 6.18pm, which is a 4 minute increase.

    So mullingar to Dublin at peak time for commuters will now take 1hr and 27 minutes on the express Sligo service!!! Bravo.

    With the focus on getting rid of cars from the road, would it now be better to encourage people out of their cars onto better public transport offerings? Even with traffic at that hour of the morning, it is nearly neck and neck to drive from Mullingar now.

    I have not looked at other routes, but the draft timetable can be downloaded from here:

    http://www.irishrail.ie/media/connolly_2016_draft_timetable.pdf


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    #2
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,301 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Many journey times have increased in order to bring in more DARTs. Really the cpacity is very limited. Without new infrastructure, DART underground etc. the rest is just tinkering. We won't see real improvement without real investment.


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    #3
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,831 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    I can see why more frequent DART services will limit the timetable on longer-distance services but I can't understand why the running time for the DART itself is being increased - with more services the loadings should be more spread out and the (already ridiculously slow) dwell times reduced.

    The DART is already the slowest it has ever been, in the new timetable it is even slower.


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    #4
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,588 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    loyatemu wrote: »
    I can see why more frequent DART services will limit the timetable on longer-distance services but I can't understand why the running time for the DART itself is being increased - with more services the loadings should be more spread out and the (already ridiculously slow) dwell times reduced.

    The DART is already the slowest it has ever been, in the new timetable it is even slower.



    I think it is probably more an acceptance of reality and that the DART is actually taking longer than it is timetabled to.


    Given the increased number of train services that will be operating, I'd prefer to have a more robust timetable that will work rather than one that may lead to delays on other services.


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    #5
    Bray Head
    Registered Users Posts: 894 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    Current timetable advertises Pearse-Bray in 40 minutes. Draft timetable for 2016 advertises a 45-minute trip!

    Older heads will correct me but wasn't a journey of 36 minutes advertised in the mid-80s? In the meantime we've added one full stop (GCD)!


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    #6
    techdiver
    Registered Users Posts: 3,089 ✭✭✭techdiver


    The only hope for Ireland is that employers finally embrace working from home, so that no one needs to travel into the city any more. It seems the only way it is ever going to work in this country.

    It's so frustrating that journey times only increase and there is no improvement in sight. A journey of 80m takes 1 hr and 30 minutes in 2015 on a train!


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    #7
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,590 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    The thing is the Luas has proven the consistency and frequency are more important then journey times.

    Many Luas journeys can be taken faster by Dublin Bus then by Luas the majority of time, yet the Luas is jam packed as people prefer a service that always arrives at the same time and is frequent.

    DARTs consistently every 10 minutes on weekdays will be a massive improvement in the service. I've often said that the DART doesn't really feel like a proper mass transit city service like Luas, due to not being consistent and frequent enough. Sometimes you end up having mad 40 minute waits!

    A consistent 10 minutes DART frequency will be a major improvement to the service and is likely to attract a lot more people out of their cars and onto trains.

    Yes it means some journey times will be a little longer, but it is a price worth paying.

    The reality is these changes will likely see a massive increase in the number of people using these services.

    My only criticism is that DART's every 20 minutes on Sundays is too long. It would be better if they followed the Saturday schedule of every 15 minutes.


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    #8
    Bray Head
    Registered Users Posts: 894 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    bk wrote: »

    Many Luas journeys can be taken faster by Dublin Bus then by Luas the majority of time, yet the Luas is jam packed as people prefer a service that always arrives at the same time and is frequent.

    On the red line perhaps but hardly the green line???

    The point you are making is that there is a trade-off between speed and frequency. With the current timetable I always target a particular Dart, I never just show up. With six an hour I might be tempted to just show up.


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    #9
    techdiver
    Registered Users Posts: 3,089 ✭✭✭techdiver


    bk wrote: »
    The thing is the Luas has proven the consistency and frequency are more important then journey times.

    Many Luas journeys can be taken faster by Dublin Bus then by Luas the majority of time, yet the Luas is jam packed as people prefer a service that always arrives at the same time and is frequent.

    DARTs consistently every 10 minutes on weekdays will be a massive improvement in the service. I've often said that the DART doesn't really feel like a proper mass transit city service like Luas, due to not being consistent and frequent enough. Sometimes you end up having mad 40 minute waits!

    A consistent 10 minutes DART frequency will be a major improvement to the service and is likely to attract a lot more people out of their cars and onto trains.

    Yes it means some journey times will be a little longer, but it is a price worth paying.

    The reality is these changes will likely see a massive increase in the number of people using these services.

    My only criticism is that DART's every 20 minutes on Sundays is too long. It would be better if they followed the Saturday schedule of every 15 minutes.

    Why can't they trial Sligo and Maynooth trains to Docklands instead of Connolly? It would avoid the cross traffic and would surely speed up those services whilst freeing the inbound lines for even more Darts?


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    #10
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,301 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    bk wrote: »
    A consistent 10 minutes DART frequency will be a major improvement to the service and is likely to attract a lot more people out of their cars and onto trains.

    :eek:

    There isn't any room on the DART as it is.


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    #11
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,831 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    bk wrote: »
    A consistent 10 minutes DART frequency will be a major improvement to the service and is likely to attract a lot more people out of their cars and onto trains.

    Existing commuters generally go for a particular train and will continue to do so, but they may have to get an earlier one due to the increased running time (I take the point about the Dart often running late, but it often runs on time as well - IE are essentially admitting their own incompetence if they are saying they can't get the trains to run on time. The timetable is already well padded - I assume they'll still give themselves 5 minutes leeway in the punctuality statistics too).

    I can't see how daily commuters will benefit from this, casual users may benefit but ultimately they'll just be spending more time on the train rather than waiting for it.


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    #12
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,590 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    cgcsb wrote: »
    :eek:

    There isn't any room on the DART as it is.

    Clearly there will be more DARTs and therefore more capacity with an increased frequency.

    Also hopefully we will see a return to all DARTs being 8 carriages.


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    #13
    CaoimheSquee
    Registered Users Posts: 359 ✭✭CaoimheSquee


    Greystones losing out also - journey times to be longer.


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    #14
    Mahogany
    Closed Accounts Posts: 343 ✭✭Mahogany


    bk wrote: »
    The thing is the Luas has proven the consistency and frequency are more important then journey times.

    Many Luas journeys can be taken faster by Dublin Bus then by Luas the majority of time, yet the Luas is jam packed as people prefer a service that always arrives at the same time and is frequent.

    DARTs consistently every 10 minutes on weekdays will be a massive improvement in the service. I've often said that the DART doesn't really feel like a proper mass transit city service like Luas, due to not being consistent and frequent enough. Sometimes you end up having mad 40 minute waits!

    A consistent 10 minutes DART frequency will be a major improvement to the service and is likely to attract a lot more people out of their cars and onto trains.

    Yes it means some journey times will be a little longer, but it is a price worth paying.

    The reality is these changes will likely see a massive increase in the number of people using these services.

    My only criticism is that DART's every 20 minutes on Sundays is too long. It would be better if they followed the Saturday schedule of every 15 minutes.

    Not if you live in Greystones.


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    #15
    thomasj
    Registered Users Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭thomasj


    techdiver wrote:
    Why can't they trial Sligo and Maynooth trains to Docklands instead of Connolly? It would avoid the cross traffic and would surely speed up those services whilst freeing the inbound lines for even more Darts?


    You haven't seen docklands station have you?


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    #16
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,590 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Mahogany wrote: »
    Not if you live in Greystones.

    Sure and that sucks, I'm not sure why all Darts can't operate from Greystones, I assume it has something to do with limited track capacity along the coast with the cliffs?

    But, the vast majority of DART users don't live in Greystones and the vast majority will benefit from this improvement.

    Sometimes you have to break a couple of eggs to make an omelette.


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    #17
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,831 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    bk wrote: »
    Sure and that sucks, I'm not sure why all Darts can't operate from Greystones, I assume it has something to do with limited track capacity along the coast with the cliffs?

    But, the vast majority of DART users don't live in Greystones and the vast majority will benefit from this improvement.

    difficult to improve services to Greystones due to the single line, they could potentially run some extra peak time services by stabling a train in the siding to the south of the station though.

    I don't believe the "vast majority" of existing users will benefit from the new timetable - I'd be interested to hear from anyone currently commuting by Dart who thinks this new timetable will save them any time. In my case I'll have to get up half an hour earlier in the morning and I'll get home half an hour later - not an improvement to say the least.


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    #18
    techdiver
    Registered Users Posts: 3,089 ✭✭✭techdiver


    thomasj wrote: »
    You haven't seen docklands station have you?

    I work beside it and have used it quite a few times.

    What is your point?


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    #19
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,998 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    bk wrote: »
    Yes it means some journey times will be a little longer, but it is a price worth paying.

    if we were talking about just dart i would agree. the problem is the long distance services from connolly which are slow all ready, and will now be slower again. i know us users of those long distance services out of connolly don't matter but still. its funny because back in 2002 the journey time between rosslare and dublin was a lot faster, and that was with locos and carriges. now we have railcars, to many stops within the dublin area and now we have to get around a 10 minute dart frequency. its a shame because i do in theory welcome the 10 minute dart frequency but its going to make us all have longer journeys by the looks of it
    techdiver wrote: »
    Why can't they trial Sligo and Maynooth trains to Docklands instead of Connolly? It would avoid the cross traffic and would surely speed up those services whilst freeing the inbound lines for even more Darts?

    because the users of those services probably don't wish to travel to docklands. implement such a change and you make those services possibly unatractive.
    bk wrote: »
    Clearly there will be more DARTs and therefore more capacity with an increased frequency.

    Also hopefully we will see a return to all DARTs being 8 carriages.

    thing is, i'm not sure that will be the case or possible. going on the amount of current dart units, i'm not sure we can have all 8 carriges and a 10 minute frequency at the same time.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #20
    thomasj
    Registered Users Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭thomasj


    The point is were talking about a 2 platform station that while it may work off peak, it wouldn't have capability to deal with maynooth, Longford, Sligo and m3 parkway during peak not to mention the queues waiting on the Sligo trains.

    Not to mention it doesn't serve drumcondra station, one of the busiest stations on the maynooth line.


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    #21
    techdiver
    Registered Users Posts: 3,089 ✭✭✭techdiver


    thomasj wrote: »
    The point is were talking about a 2 platform station that while it may work off peak, it wouldn't have capability to deal with maynooth, Longford, Sligo and m3 parkway during peak not to mention the queues waiting on the Sligo trains.

    Not to mention it doesn't serve drumcondra station, one of the busiest stations on the maynooth line.

    Apologies, I meant "some", not all services.


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    #22
    AlanG
    Registered Users Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭AlanG


    techdiver wrote: »
    Why can't they trial Sligo and Maynooth trains to Docklands instead of Connolly? It would avoid the cross traffic and would surely speed up those services whilst freeing the inbound lines for even more Darts?

    Docklands station is not in a location that most people want to travel to. It is a stretch to call it city center and it doesn't link with other rail services.


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    #23
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    loyatemu wrote: »
    I can't see how daily commuters will benefit from this....

    Because there will be extra capacity for an increasing number of commuters and better frequently can mean shorter and more dependable trips from door to door.


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    #24
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    cgcsb wrote: »
    There isn't any room on the DART as it is.

    There is plenty of room on some DARTS in evening peak with other ones sometimes it is impossible to get on. Evening Peak northbound timetable is a complete farce with it's awful schedule, bad split between the two branches, which in turn cause knock on delays to abysmal dwell time.

    The current timetable is an aberration. My overcrowded usual 4 carriage Malahide branch train is normally at least 10 minutes late and like sardines with just a short 48 minute wait till the next one with all the huge number of Howth trains around it with many seats free and pretty much ontime.
    bk wrote: »
    Also hopefully we will see a return to all DARTs being 8 carriages.

    Absolutely no chance, nowhere near enough carriages for that. They would struggle to do that on the current timetable.
    loyatemu wrote: »
    Existing commuters generally go for a particular train and will continue to do so,

    And some commuters in evening peak have to get on a train going to a different line than the one they actually need to go to, because they do not want to risk not being able to board the train that goes to their stop and end up waiting 50 minutes for the next one.
    IE are essentially admitting their own incompetence if they are saying they can't get the trains to run on time.
    I can't see how daily commuters will benefit from this, casual users may benefit but ultimately they'll just be spending more time on the train rather than waiting for it.

    People on the Malahide branch in the evening might actually be able to board a train going to their stop on a regular basis. At the moment there is a huge bias towards Howth in evening peak which is completely at odds with passenger numbers for the two sides. There is a risk of not being able to board the 17:58 train from Clontarf every single night, it's got so bad that some nights there are more people on the 17:51 train to Howth going to stations on the Malahide Branch than to the Howth branc.

    Nothing more frustrating than seeing Howth Trains at 17:32, 17:43, 17:51, 18:13, 18:31 from Clontarf having seats free and being practically empty by Howth Junction with the 17:58 and 18:46 trains to Malahide sometimes being impossible to board or if you can board being like sardines with it not easing up at all until Clongriffin.

    Commuters going to Howth after 5.30pm may actually have to sit next to someone rather than having two seats to themselves on one of their FIVE services in 59 minutes between 5.32 and 6.32 whilst everyone crams into and sometimes cannot board the TWO Malahide Trains between 5.30 and 7 which are both 4 carriages.
    loyatemu wrote: »
    I don't believe the "vast majority" of existing users will benefit from the new timetable - I'd be interested to hear from anyone currently commuting by Dart who thinks this new timetable will save them any time. In my case I'll have to get up half an hour earlier in the morning and I'll get home half an hour later - not an improvement to say the least.

    See above.


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    #25
    MrMorooka
    Registered Users Posts: 710 ✭✭✭MrMorooka


    monument wrote: »
    Because there will be extra capacity for an increasing number of DART commuters and better frequently can mean shorter and more dependable trips from door to door for people taking the DART.

    FTFY.


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    #26
    Grandeeod
    Registered Users Posts: 12,117 ✭✭✭✭Grandeeod


    Two distinct things emanating from this thread.

    1. Dire planning of residential housing in the GDA.

    2. The compromising of railway infrastructure with commercial development.


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    #27
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    AlanG wrote: »
    Docklands station is not in a location that most people want to travel to. It is a stretch to call it city center and it doesn't link with other rail services.

    Eh a bit like Heuston. As someone who lives on the Maynooth line I would not object to an increase in services even if it meant all the extra services terminated in Docklands. I think it's criminal the station is unused off peak when it's within walking distance of the convention centre etc.

    I think other bottle necks on the system could be avoided too... Is it necessary for every train from Malahide to go to Bray when the train shed in Connolly has 4 very nice platforms?


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    #28
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,998 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Is it necessary for every train from Malahide to go to Bray when the train shed in Connolly has 4 very nice platforms?

    only platform 4 is electrified as far as i know. all dart capacity is usually required beyond connolly as well so i'm not sure terminating darts at connolly would be the best idea. maybe terminating more commuters at connolly platforms 1 to 4 where possible might be more doable and would be a better idea?

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #29
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users Posts: 7,854 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    techdiver wrote: »
    Why can't they trial Sligo and Maynooth trains to Docklands instead of Connolly? It would avoid the cross traffic and would surely speed up those services whilst freeing the inbound lines for even more Darts?
    +1

    its a 5min walk from docklands station to the luas and its a 10min walk to Grandcanal dock and Facebook, and marginally longer to Google HQ.

    Its not as isolated as some would think.


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    #30
    room_149
    Registered Users Posts: 344 ✭✭room_149


    techdiver wrote: »
    The only hope for Ireland is that employers finally embrace working from home, so that no one needs to travel into the city any more. It seems the only way it is ever going to work in this country.

    It's so frustrating that journey times only increase and there is no improvement in sight. A journey of 80m takes 1 hr and 30 minutes in 2015 on a train!

    Even worse when you consider Mullingar to Connolly Station is 50miles!
    The Train to Connolly took anywhere between 1hr:10mins to 1hr:30mins when I had to use that service a few years back.
    Gave up on it after a few weeks and started driving to Maynooth or Louisa Bridge instead in the mornings. Parked the car and got the arrow into Drumcondra. Total commuting time took no more than an hour each way by doing so, 45 to 50mins infact
    My heart goes out to the hundreds who still use that commuter train from Mullingar on a daily basis. It's ridiculously slow for a journey of that distance.


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    #31
    thomasj
    Registered Users Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭thomasj


    So Irish rail were saying on twitter this morning that docklands is closed due to low rail adhesion and that m3 trains will use Connolly.

    Also there seems to be one or two m3 trains missing going by the same reports on twitter.

    Imagine the chaos that would have ensued if there were maynooth and Sligo trains running to docklands and they had to be diverted to Connolly this morning because of this.

    And there's no hiding the fact this station is closed a little too often


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