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Grass roots events: forced closure of events in NCD

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    #62
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    killalanerr wrote: »
    When running an event you do need to inform the authorities of your event but if you follow the act you do not need permission so long as the council are indemnify from 3rd party claims which im sure the CI policy will do and if it does not im sure it could be added to the policy,replace the word permission with inform and maybe the council would not be treating us in this way.

    Tell the insurance company that sure you're only changing one word, replacing 'permission' with 'inform', sure it's grand
    killalanerr wrote: »
    As far as protecting clubs and their committee the relatively simple step of making the club a limited company with a nominal share value and running events under the heading of said company would leave it very difficult for a 3rd party claim against individuals within the club

    Again, tell the insurance company that you are no longer a club, you're a limited company set up to make sure that everyone involved can walk away if something goes wrong, I'm sure they'll be cool with that.


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    #63
    killalanerr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,322 ✭✭✭killalanerr


    RayCun wrote: »
    Tell the insurance company that sure you're only changing one word, replacing 'permission' with 'inform', sure it's grand
    Again, tell the insurance company that you are no longer a club, you're a limited company set up to make sure that everyone involved can walk away if something goes wrong, I'm sure they'll be cool with that.

    How would this change the risk to the insurance co in any way and nobody is walking away from anything if their is no avenue to get to access of the club their would be no point in trying to make a claim against it, this is SOP,s nothing new here,


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    #64
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    killalanerr wrote: »
    How would this change the risk to the insurance co in any way and nobody is walking away from anything if their is no avenue to get to access of the club their would be no point in trying to make a claim against it, this is SOP,s nothing new here,

    Why would the insurance company agree to insure a race with those conditions?


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    #65
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    Lumen wrote: »
    Are you sure about that? I'm not a lawyer but I don't think limited company status protects directors from being held personally liable.

    The directors are not personally liable unless they are deemed to "trade recklessly". Running a race when you have been refused permission or know you woul if you asked would definitely fall into that category..


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    #66
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,489 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    The rules concerning directors are not couched in the terms "trading recklessly" but to all intents and purposes it amounts to something pretty similar

    Committee membere are actually in a similar situation - they accept responsibilty for their actions as a committee member and may well be more exposed to egal challenge as a result of being on the relevant committee.

    In all cases the people responsible/organisers (which is likely to include but not be limited to directors/committee members) can be expected to observe all relevant laws and also rules/regulations of any organisation affiliated to such as CI


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    #67
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,015 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    RobFowl wrote: »
    The directors are not personally liable unless they are deemed to "trade recklessly"
    I get all my legal expertise from the Daily Mail.

    Director charged with gross negligence manslaughter after little girl was crushed to death by his company's electronic gate
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2281872/Director-charged-gross-negligence-manslaughter-little-girl-crushed-death-companys-electronic-gate.html


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    #68
    killalanerr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,322 ✭✭✭killalanerr


    RobFowl wrote: »
    The directors are not personally liable unless they are deemed to "trade recklessly". Running a race when you have been refused permission or know you woul if you asked would definitely fall into that category..


    There's that word again if you have acquitted your responsibility under the act and informed the relevant authorities of your event you have acquitted your responsibilities,how could that be deemed reckless,
    Anyway the directors need not necessarily be in anyway be involved in the promotion of the event.


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    #69
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,489 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Just to add the responsibilities of directors are generally more onerous than those of committee members, and limited companies are subject to more legal considerations that an unincorporated sports club. In addition there are additional costs of running a limited company (such as having an annual audit and filing an annual return). Then, of course, there is tax to consider ....


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    #70
    Raam
    Registered Users Posts: 14,317 ✭✭✭✭Raam


    Beasty wrote: »
    Just to add the responsibilities of directors are generally more onerous than those of committee members, and limited companies are subject to more legal considerations that an unincorporated sports club. In addition there are additional costs of running a limited company (such as having an annual audit and filing an annual return). Then, of course, there is tax to consider ....

    Just the kind of thing you love, now get on with it.


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    #71
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,489 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    killalanerr wrote: »
    Anyway the directors need not necessarily be in anyway be involved in the promotion of the event.
    Having studied company law on and off for over 30 years and having been a director of probably 300+ companies (and a committee member of a Cycling club) during that time I think I've got a pretty good idea of the responsibilities of company directors. Ultimately the directors must accept responsibilty for the actions of the company and put in place procedures to ensure the company does not fall foul (in a material way) of relevant laws/regulations etc.


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    #72
    killalanerr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,322 ✭✭✭killalanerr


    Beasty wrote: »
    Just to add the responsibilities of directors are generally more onerous than those of committee members, and limited companies are subject to more legal considerations that an unincorporated sports club. In addition there are additional costs of running a limited company (such as having an annual audit and filing an annual return). Then, of course, there is tax to consider ....

    A copy of the club AC from the agm to be lodged with the company office,and afaik sports clubs have a separate tax class easy enough to find out


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    #73
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,015 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Beasty wrote: »
    Just to add the responsibilities of directors are generally more onerous than those of committee members, and limited companies are subject to more legal considerations that an unincorporated sports club. In addition there are additional costs of running a limited company (such as having an annual audit and filing an annual return). Then, of course, there is tax to consider ....
    You don't need an annual audit unless you've got a balance sheet over €4.4m or turnover over €8.8m.

    Small fry in Beasty Land. :-)


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    #74
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,489 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    killalanerr wrote: »
    sports clubs have a separate tax class easy enough to find out
    Unincorporated sports clubs generally benefit from a tax exemption in Ireland. That falls away once you incorporate the club, and there are more hoops to get through to retain any tax exemption.


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    #75
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,489 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Lumen wrote: »
    You don't need an annual audit unless you've got a balance sheet over €4.4m or turnover over €8.8m.

    Small fry in Beasty Land. :-)
    Still have to prepare and file statutory accounts (audited or not) and an annual return. Audited accounts are also likely to be subject to less Revenue scrutinisation;)


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    #76
    couerdelion
    Registered Users Posts: 2,910 ✭✭✭couerdelion


    What seems to be in question is what is categorised as a road race? My understanding is that it relates to motorised vehicles but really it needs clarification from the minister. All he needs to do is confirm that it relates to motorised vehicles and we can carry on as before.
    07Lapierre wrote: »
    Yes they do:

    (2) A person who intends to hold, organise or promote a road race shall give at least one month's notice (or such other period of notice as may be prescribed by the Minister) in writing to the road authority and to the Superintendent of the Garda Síochána within whose district the road race is to be held.

    (3) (a) A road authority may by notice in writing served on a person who intends to hold, organise or promote a road race or, where the name of that person cannot be ascertained by reasonable inquiry, by notice published in one or more newspapers circulating in the area in which the road race is to be held—

    (i) prohibit the holding of the road race,

    (ii) prohibit the holding of the road race unless specified conditions, restrictions or requirements are complied with,

    (iii) impose specified conditions, restrictions or requirements in relation to the holding of the road race which must be complied with.

    (b) The conditions under paragraph (a) may include the giving of security or the provision of an indemnity.

    (4) Any person who contravenes subsection (2) or a notice under subsection (3) shall be guilty of an offence.


    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993/en/act/pub/0014/sec0074.html#sec74


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    #77
    killalanerr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,322 ✭✭✭killalanerr


    It still remains a way to protect the club members and its assess from 3rd party claims,without to many hoops i still feel it would a worthwhile avenue for clubs promoting events to explore,have a look at what is best practice in other sports where clubs promote events on open roads


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    #78
    Raam
    Registered Users Posts: 14,317 ✭✭✭✭Raam


    couerdelion wrote: »
    What seems to be in question is what is categorised as a road race? My understanding is that it relates to motorised vehicles but really it needs clarification from the minister. All he needs to do is confirm that it relates to motorised vehicles and we can carry on as before.

    Someone tweet Leo.


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    #79
    couerdelion
    Registered Users Posts: 2,910 ✭✭✭couerdelion


    Raam wrote: »
    Someone tweet Leo.

    I've read a bit more... To me it comes down to " the prescribed class of race"

    Prescribe - "state authoritatively" therefore Prescribed = "Stated Authoritatively"

    That must mean that somewhere their is a list of types of races (that contain people, vehicles or animals) that need to be notified to AGS & Road Authority.

    But there doesn't seem to be an authoritatively stated list of what constitutes a race.

    I'm no lawyer though...


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    #80
    mcgratheoin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,461 ✭✭✭mcgratheoin


    couerdelion wrote: »
    What seems to be in question is what is categorised as a road race? My understanding is that it relates to motorised vehicles but really it needs clarification from the minister. All he needs to do is confirm that it relates to motorised vehicles and we can carry on as before.

    My understanding based on what was quoted earlier is that a road race could be bikes/runners/cars/horses or anything, not just motorised vehicles.
    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    74.—(1) In this section “road race” means a prescribed class of race, time trial or speed trial on a public road involving persons, vehicles or animals.


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    #81
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,015 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    mcgratheoin wrote: »
    My understanding based on what was quoted earlier is that a road race could be bikes/runners/cars/horses or anything, not just motorised vehicles.

    I think it all boils down to the meaning of "prescribed". It's not the same as "proscribed"!


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    #82
    buffalo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,055 ✭✭✭buffalo


    Is anyone from Swords able/authorised to say exactly what approach they took with the issue?

    From what I heard, they approached the county council, who said the race needed x amount of Gardaí/closures/safety precautions, and the club were unable to meet said prerequisites, and so no more Fingal races (this is all second-hand hearsay). I'd love some clarity on it.

    Just because I notice the Balbriggan races are going ahead this weekend, so there must be some way around the blockade.


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    #83
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    killalanerr wrote: »
    It still remains a way to protect the club members and its assess from 3rd party claims,without to many hoops i still feel it would a worthwhile avenue for clubs promoting events to explore,have a look at what is best practice in other sports where clubs promote events on open roads


    What Like triathlon clubs?

    http://www.irishtriathlon.com/index.php/2014/03/nac-triathlon-cancelled-the-latest-grass-roots-event-to-be-effected-in-dublin/


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    #84
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    buffalo wrote: »
    Is anyone from Swords able/authorised to say exactly what approach they took with the issue?

    From what I heard, they approached the county council, who said the race needed x amount of Gardaí/closures/safety precautions, and the club were unable to meet said prerequisites, and so no more Fingal races (this is all second-hand hearsay). I'd love some clarity on it.

    Just because I notice the Balbriggan races are going ahead this weekend, so there must be some way around the blockade.

    Not correct...we were willing to discuss all options to run the league.

    I understand the Balbriggan races are going ahead because they have confirmed the Gardai will operate "Rolling Road Closures" which we were unable to obtain last year.


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    #85
    killalanerr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,322 ✭✭✭killalanerr


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    What Like triathlon clubs?

    http://www.irishtriathlon.com/index.php/2014/03/nac-triathlon-cancelled-the-latest-grass-roots-event-to-be-effected-in-dublin/

    Just keep backing down the cul de sac so,me bad you good


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    #86
    buffalo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,055 ✭✭✭buffalo


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    Not correct...we were willing to discuss all options to run the league.

    I understand the Balbriggan races are going ahead because they have confirmed the Gardai will operate "Rolling Road Closures" which we were unable to obtain last year.

    Does that not mean council has a requirement for rolling road closures in order for a road race to be held?

    (Assuming the council are correct in their interpretation of the law.)


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    #87
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    buffalo wrote: »
    Does that not mean council has a requirement for rolling road closures in order for a road race to be held?

    (Assuming the council are correct in their interpretation of the law.)

    Rolling Road Closures / full road closures, who knows what reason the local authority can insist on if you want to organise a race. They must be notified and then the organisers must comply with whatever conditions are demanded.

    If the local authority insist on rolling road closures, then Garda assistance is needed as only Gardai have the legal power to operate a rolling road closure. If Gardai cannot provide assistance, then the club are not in a position to meet the conditions laid down by the authority.


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    #88
    buffalo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,055 ✭✭✭buffalo


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    then the club are not in a position to meet the conditions laid down by the authority.

    So when I said "the club were unable to meet said prerequisites", and you said "not correct", what you meant was "correct"? :)

    But let's not get bogged down in semantics - so the council demands at least rolling road closures for races to take place, and the Gardai are unable/unwilling to provide them for the league?


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    #89
    Lusk_Doyle
    Registered Users Posts: 4,338 ✭✭✭Lusk_Doyle


    Lumen wrote: »
    You don't need an annual audit unless you've got a balance sheet over €4.4m or turnover over €8.8m.

    Small fry in Beasty Land. :-)

    Not true. Im regulated by the CB and I need one. Rest assured my figures are nowhere near those you quote!


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    #90
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    buffalo wrote: »
    So when I said "the club were unable to meet said prerequisites", and you said "not correct", what you meant was "correct"? :)

    But let's not get bogged down in semantics - so the council demands at least rolling road closures for races to take place, and the Gardai are unable/unwilling to provide them for the league?
    Eh yes u are correct apologies


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    #91
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,489 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    I'm looking to host an Open debate on the topic at the Man 'O War at 4pm this Saturday for anyone who's interested (and if I can get a lift to the place);)


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