Grass roots events: forced closure of events in NCD

buffalo · 25-03-2014 11:50pm #1

http://www.irishtriathlon.com/index.php/2014/03/nac-triathlon-cancelled-the-latest-grass-roots-event-to-be-effected-in-dublin/

I know it's only a triathlon, but the same rules are affecting pure cycling events too.

Ahead of the local elections in May, is it time to start badgering candidates and higher officials to get this sorted? Not to mention making it a priority for CI. I'm a seasoned letter writer obviously, but I think it's time everyone put pen to paper and sort this out before it becomes a national issue.

manafana · 25-03-2014 11:57pm

buffalo wrote: »

http://www.irishtriathlon.com/index.php/2014/03/nac-triathlon-cancelled-the-latest-grass-roots-event-to-be-effected-in-dublin/

I know it's only a triathlon, but the same rules are affecting pure cycling events too.

Ahead of the local elections in May, is it time to start badgering candidates and higher officials to get this sorted? Not to mention making it a priority for CI. I'm a seasoned letter writer obviously, but I think it's time everyone put pen to paper and sort this out before it becomes a national issue.

didnt this only happen in NCD because of a high ranking guard getting annoyed at how one race was run 1-2years ago?

07Lapierre · 26-03-2014 12:19am

manafana wrote: »

didnt this only happen in NCD because of a high ranking guard getting annoyed at how one race was run 1-2years ago?

Allegedly...

RO 06 · 26-03-2014 12:46am

Ras final stage in to skerries might be neutralised yet

Beasty · 26-03-2014 12:47am

manafana wrote: »

didnt this only happen in NCD because of a high ranking guard getting annoyed at how one race was run 1-2years ago?

No - it's happened because of the stance taken by Fingal County Council on cycling events in the county. There was an incident involving a Gardai in the Swords League - the consequence of that was that the Council only then realised they had a role to play and decided they did not wish to approve any "races" in the county's roads unless they were fully supported by the Garda with rolling road closures or on fully closed roads.

Of course rolling road closures are an impracticality for triathlons and getting fully closed roads for such an event is equally difficult given the time taken to run it and the number of "affected" parties liveing on the circuit

Beasty · 26-03-2014 12:49am

RO 06 wrote: »

Ras final stage in to skerries will be subject to "appropriate" road closures

FYP;)

manafana · 26-03-2014 1:14am

I don't believe this is a country wide issue however I just don't see why every other area will follow suit.

The Uk is in a similar situation to NCD isn't hence why tt is so popular as they cant get many races on

Raam · 26-03-2014 8:07am

Cyclocross, it's the way forward. I found Fingal very good to work with in that aspect.

Beasty · 26-03-2014 8:21am

To be absolutely clear I, like Raam, have found Fingal County Council actually quite supportive of Cycling - they have also promoted a BMX open day in Balbriggan during 2013 and are actively looking for other longer term options in this area

They actually believe they have a responsibility to be actively involved in any decision process whenever public roads are used for "cycle races". They are laying down what they believe to be appropriate conditions which essentially involve minimising the risk of cyclists encountering motorists (and vice versa). Other councils have not, at this stage, taken a similar approach - whether that is because they have considered the issue and decided they do not need to be involved in such decision, or have simply not considered the issue, remains to be seen (and I personally have a view on where most councils sit on this having been actively involved in discussions with FCC on this partiular issue).

niceonetom · 26-03-2014 8:59am

Beasty wrote: »

To be absolutely clear I, like Raam, have found Fingal County Council actually quite supportive of Cycling - they have also promoted a BMX open day in Balbriggan during 2013 and are actively looking for other longer term options in this area

So they're very supportive of cycling*.

*as long as said cycling does not happen on a road.

Brilliant.

Beasty wrote: »

They are laying down what they believe to be appropriate conditions which essentially involve minimising the risk of cyclists encountering motorists (and vice versa).

That is a masterful euphemism for banning racing. Why not ban bicycles altogether (if only they had the power to do so)? That would after all reduce the "risk of cyclists encountering motorists (and vice versa)" to zero! A victory for all concerned!

Chips Lovell · 26-03-2014 9:11am

Does Fingal have any authority under the 1993 Roads Act to block events going ahead? As far as I know, what constitutes a road race under the act still hasn't been prescribed by the Minister.

Diarmuid · 26-03-2014 9:33am

Beasty wrote: »

They actually believe they have a responsibility to be actively involved in any decision process whenever public roads are used for "cycle races"..

Which was intentionally or unintentionally validated by the engagement of the NCD league with them, resulting in the cancellation of that league.

07Lapierre · 26-03-2014 9:38am

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Does Fingal have any authority under the 1993 Roads Act to block events going ahead? As far as I know, what constitutes a road race under the act still hasn't been prescribed by the Minister.

Yes they do:

(2) A person who intends to hold, organise or promote a road race shall give at least one month's notice (or such other period of notice as may be prescribed by the Minister) in writing to the road authority and to the Superintendent of the Garda Síochána within whose district the road race is to be held.

(3) (a) A road authority may by notice in writing served on a person who intends to hold, organise or promote a road race or, where the name of that person cannot be ascertained by reasonable inquiry, by notice published in one or more newspapers circulating in the area in which the road race is to be held—

(i) prohibit the holding of the road race,

(ii) prohibit the holding of the road race unless specified conditions, restrictions or requirements are complied with,

(iii) impose specified conditions, restrictions or requirements in relation to the holding of the road race which must be complied with.

(b) The conditions under paragraph (a) may include the giving of security or the provision of an indemnity.

(4) Any person who contravenes subsection (2) or a notice under subsection (3) shall be guilty of an offence.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993/en/act/pub/0014/sec0074.html#sec74

Chips Lovell · 26-03-2014 9:43am

That's the legislation I was referring to. The previous sub-section states:

74.—(1) In this section “road race” means a prescribed class of race, time trial or speed trial on a public road involving persons, vehicles or animals.

My understanding is that the prescription has never been made, i.e. no minister with responsibility for roads has ever drawn up a statutory instrument prescribing what constitutes a "road race". In the absence of that, sub-sections 2 and 3 have yet to come into force.

RayCun · 26-03-2014 9:46am

Isn't the problem that any cycle race is going to involve breaking the law? Not just crossing the centre white line, which maybe could be stopped, but cycling more than two abreast for extended periods. Which means no other traffic in the same direction at the same time. And at any junctions on the race route, the cyclists have to be given priority, which means marshalls at junctions telling ('asking') traffic to stop.

That doesn't mean cycle racing should be banned. Some/all of these rules are suspended for parades, car races, running races etc etc, they could be for cycle races too. But the council and gardai want/have to be involved in deciding when these rules are going to be suspended

Chips Lovell · 26-03-2014 9:46am

My reading of this is that if you want to run a race without closing roads, you can, without having to seek permission. You'd only need to approach a local authority if you require road closures, as per section 75 of the Roads Act.

RayCun · 26-03-2014 9:50am

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

My reading of this is that if you want to run a race without closing roads, you can, without having to seek permission. You'd only need to approach a local authority if you require road closures, as per section 75 of the Roads Act.

And in this race on open roads, would all normal traffic laws be in force?

Chips Lovell · 26-03-2014 9:50am

Yes, of course.

07Lapierre · 26-03-2014 9:55am

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

My reading of this is that if you want to run a race without closing roads, you can, without having to seek permission. You'd only need to approach a local authority if you require road closures, as per section 75 of the Roads Act.

+1 But before running a "Race" or "Event" on a public road, the Local authority and the Garda Superintendant responsible for the area must be informed.

BUT once informed, they can object to the race or event. No reason has to be given.

http://www.cyclingireland.ie/page/events/how-to-organise-a-cycling-ireland-event

RayCun · 26-03-2014 9:55am

including

29.—(1) A pedal cyclist shall not, save when overtaking other pedal cyclists (and then only if to do so will not endanger other traffic or pedestrians) drive a pedal cycle on a roadway in such a manner as to result in more than two pedal cycles driving abreast.

Chips Lovell · 26-03-2014 10:01am

07Lapierre wrote: »

+1 But before running a "Race" or "Event" on a public road, the Local authority and the Garda Superintendant responsible for the area must be informed.

BUT once informed, they can object to the race or event. No reason has to be given.

That's still referring to section 74 of the act though.

07Lapierre · 26-03-2014 10:04am

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Does Fingal have any authority under the 1993 Roads Act to block events going ahead? As far as I know, what constitutes a road race under the act still hasn't been prescribed by the Minister.

Is there any proof of this? (because FIngal and Balbriggan Gardai don't seem to be aware of this)

Chips Lovell · 26-03-2014 10:07am

07Lapierre wrote: »

Is there any proof of this?

Search the statute book. There's nothing there.

ragazzo · 26-03-2014 11:28am

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Search the statute book. There's nothing there.

Statutes and laws are great. They keep the peasants in their place. State bodies dip in and out when necessary.

So, if a CC tells a Race Promoter that he/she cannot hold a race on the roads under its authority, what happens next.
Does the race go ahead regardless? Does the race promoter bring the council to court?
Even if you are correct, what can a race organiser do against a council decision.

Lumen · 26-03-2014 11:33am

ragazzo wrote: »

So, if a CC tells a Race Promoter that he/she cannot hold a race on the roads under its authority, what happens next.

What do you mean by "under its authority"? AGS police the roads. The council and NRA maintain them.

Should I ask my housekeeper* whether I'm allowed to run around my kitchen?

Stuff is legal by default.

(* I don't have a housekeeper)

Chips Lovell · 26-03-2014 11:42am

ragazzo wrote: »

So, if a CC tells a Race Promoter that he/she cannot hold a race on the roads under its authority, what happens next.
Does the race go ahead regardless? Does the race promoter bring the council to court?
Even if you are correct, what can a race organiser do against a council decision.

The race organiser doesn't have to do anything. If a local authority believes it has the legal power to stop a road race going ahead, it's up to them to bring the race organiser to court.

detones · 26-03-2014 11:43am

If the issue is solely with the Local Authorities has anybody considered making a representation to a local rep who can bring it up as a Question/motion in the Monthly Council Meetings. If the affected clubs are just dealing with the Admin & Engineering staff they can very easily be fobbed off. These days local authorities are very conservative when it comes to a lot of issues and it's easier just to say no. It may just take some political pressure to get the issue resolved. As mentioned earlier election season is looming.

Raam · 26-03-2014 11:46am

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

The race organiser doesn't have to do anything. If a local authority believes it has the legal power to stop a road race going ahead, it's up to them to bring the race organiser to court.

Would you want to risk going to court? Personally I wouldn't. Maybe other folk have more time and energy to deal with that. If so, good on 'em.

RobFowl · 26-03-2014 11:47am

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Does Fingal have any authority under the 1993 Roads Act to block events going ahead? As far as I know, what constitutes a road race under the act still hasn't been prescribed by the Minister.

The CI insurance coverage is conditional on permission being given. If the local authority or police refuse permission then there is no insurance and organisers become personally liable for any issues.
CI is an All Island body covering 2 different jurisdictions so Irish statute is only part of the issue.

Lumen · 26-03-2014 11:50am

Raam wrote: »

Would you want to risk going to court? Personally I wouldn't. Maybe other folk have more time and energy to deal with that. If so, good on 'em.

Risk of being taken to court for what, exactly?

ragazzo · 26-03-2014 11:51am

Lumen wrote: »

What do you mean by "under its authority"? AGS police the roads. The council and NRA maintain them.

Should I ask my housekeeper* whether I'm allowed to run around my kitchen?

Stuff is legal by default.

(* I don't have a housekeeper)

Hint: Local Authority

Do the Gardaì maintain the roads too?

It is necessary to gain permission from the local county council when making an application to run a road race.

What you do to your housekeeper does not have to be notified to the county council. Maybe it is a garda matter... who knows?

Grass roots events: forced closure of events in NCD

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