Moderation of commuting and transport

Polar101 · 08-05-2013 1:46pm

I read this forum very often, but don't post frequently. I am finding the moderation here a bit inconsistent. The same petty arguments keep going on and on in many different threads, maybe the moderators could be more active in trying to keep the forum a bit more civil? Unless the plan is to keep the forum as a fighting ground for the few regular posters. Without opinions there wouldn't be any discussion, but there no need to try and shove the opinion down other posters' throats.

davidlacey · 08-05-2013 1:58pm

I have to agree with Gabriel Conway. I am a long time reader, just a rather new poster with a big interest in railways/buses since being a little boy (Id like to consider myself an enthusiast). I am disgusted on many ocassions by the amount of conflict and bad attitudes and it really turns alot of us off and just shouldn't happen. I believe that yes we all have our own opinions and yes posters have different backgrounds in the industry and some like me have none. I just appreciate an 071 when I see one:D, but it shouldn't get personal and trolling is just ridiculous.

I love to be able to come on here to read, watch videos and look at pictures and sometimes post and I realise alot of times they might be small silly questions about certain things but, unfortunately I was only born just after the Dart was created, so I have very little knowledge compared to some posters here and Thats what the board should be about. People drawing from each others wealth of knowledge, putting up informative posts, having civilised debates without getting personal and questioning whether they work for the particular organisation in question.

I have to agree with Gabriel with the point that
"The pro/anti rail stuff can be a bit intense at times, and also a degree of slurring of individual members along the lines of "you must have a vested interest".

The mods are here to moderate not to be the teacher in the class and have to control a pack of immature children and we the posters are here to inform, behave, take part and in many cases grow up.

Cheers

corktina · 08-05-2013 2:33pm

davidlacey wrote: »

I have to agree with Gabriel Conway. I am a long time reader, just a rather new poster with a big interest in railways/buses since being a little boy (Id like to consider myself an enthusiast). I am disgusted on many ocassions by the amount of conflict and bad attitudes and it really turns alot of us off and just shouldn't happen. I believe that yes we all have our own opinions and yes posters have different backgrounds in the industry and some like me have none. I just appreciate an 071 when I see one:D, but it shouldn't get personal and trolling is just ridiculous.

I love to be able to come on here to read, watch videos and look at pictures and sometimes post and I realise alot of times they might be small silly questions about certain things but, unfortunately I was only born just after the Dart was created, so I have very little knowledge compared to some posters here and Thats what the board should be about. People drawing from each others wealth of knowledge, putting up informative posts, having civilised debates without getting personal and questioning whether they work for the particular organisation in question.

I have to agree with Gabriel with the point that
"The pro/anti rail stuff can be a bit intense at times, and also a degree of slurring of individual members along the lines of "you must have a vested interest".

The mods are here to moderate not to be the teacher in the class and have to control a pack of immature children and we the posters are here to inform, behave, take part and in many cases grow up.

Cheers

good points however were you to post that in the middle of a "circular arguement" I fear everyone would just assume you mean the other guys :-)

I do take on board though what you and others are saying about putting off other/new users. I'd like to see C&T thrive (especially the T&R sub forum) so I'll bear that in mind and for my part moderate my passion.

dfx- · 08-05-2013 3:40pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

A poisonous mix perhaps,tet one which accurately reflects the reality of Public Transport "Life" itself.

It's not some sanitized sterile gleaming pearly-white world out here,but rather a gritty,lurching,and often quite bizzarre place,and long may it continue that way !

Without this Poisonous Mix,we would have no Boards.Ie at all ?

Generally, I'd say there is a common interest across the posters of a forum. Pick a forum and there is common ground and common interests between them and they act accordingly.

Perhaps even as a community :eek: , contributing together :eek:

Fred Swanson · 08-05-2013 4:14pm

This post has been deleted.

bk · 08-05-2013 4:18pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

And it is exactly these sort of comments "bus lovers" and "shilling" that are unwanted and are unhelpful and which creates an us versus them sort of atmosphere.

monument · 08-05-2013 5:01pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

There have been a lot of "How much is the train to Cork?" threads lately. The question is answered. It is at this point the thread should be closed as all that happens is that the bus lovers pile in shilling their favourite bus services.

I'd pick the train over the bus myself, but what you're discribing is not shilling, and Commuting and Transport is open to all modes of transport.

If the OP's question is answered, what's the problem with talking about buses being cheaper or quicker?

It used to be the case that airline "lovers" also posted on "what price is the train to Cork" threads, and others sometimes still talk about the car being a better option.

bk · 08-05-2013 5:33pm

And likewise, if there was a thread that asked "How much is the bus to Cork?" I'd expect and welcome people to answer the question and also point out other options like rail, car, plane, etc.

Really there is nothing wrong with that. The OP mightn't have thought of other options.

A perfect example of this is the "Kilkenny - Dublin college commuter" thread, in this thread the OP asked about the cheapest way to make this commute. As well as directly answering question, a couple of us questioned the wisdom of making such a commute, pointing out the cost of it versus living in Dublin and in the end the OP decided to rent in Dublin instead!

Had we followed the thinking of Fred Swanson, the thread would have been closed after the OP's question was directly answered and the OP might have ended up having a dreadful commute between Dublin and Kilkenny.

Really the only reason some people have an issue with the train cost thread is because some people are being overly sensitive about rail vs bus cost discussions of any type.

Hilly Bill · 08-05-2013 5:51pm

monument wrote: »

I'd pick the train over the bus myself, but what you're discribing is not shilling, and Commuting and Transport is open to all modes of transport.

If the OP's question is answered, what's the problem with talking about buses being cheaper or quicker?

It used to be the case that airline "lovers" also posted on "what price is the train to Cork" threads, and others sometimes still talk about the car being a better option.

Because its already done to the death and nothing new gets posted and especially when that thread ends up with a discussion about the different specifics and classes of the train and bus when all was asked was the price. If the OP has made it clear that they had their answer and not engaging further in the thread then that thread should be locked .

Con Logue · 08-05-2013 6:02pm

bk wrote: »

And likewise, if there was a thread that asked "How much is the bus to Cork?" I'd expect and welcome people to answer the question and also point out other options like rail, car, plane, etc.

Really there is nothing wrong with that. The OP mightn't have thought of other options.

A perfect example of this is the "Kilkenny - Dublin college commuter" thread, in this thread the OP asked about the cheapest way to make this commute. As well as directly answering question, a couple of us questioned the wisdom of making such a commute, pointing out the cost of it versus living in Dublin and in the end the OP decided to rent in Dublin instead!

Had we followed the thinking of Fred Swanson, the thread would have been closed after the OP's question was directly answered and the OP might have ended up having a dreadful commute between Dublin and Kilkenny.

Really the only reason some people have an issue with the train cost thread is because some people are being overly sensitive about rail vs bus cost discussions of any type.

I think it is highly patronising to think that readers need to be "educated" at all and comes across as inviting as a visit from the Jehovah's Witnesses at 9.30 on a Saturday morning.

Hilly Bill · 08-05-2013 6:11pm

Con Logue wrote: »

I think it is highly patronising to think that readers need to be "educated" at all and comes across as inviting as a visit from the Jehovah's Witnesses at 9.30 on a Saturday morning.

Agreed, its implying that nobody outside the c&t forum knows about trains and buses.

devnull · 08-05-2013 6:21pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Agreed, its implying that nobody outside the c&t forum knows about trains and buses.

But not everyone has the knowledge of all of the options that are available to them so it makes no harm in letting them know so they can make a choice of their own at the end of the day.

Generally the people who are mentioning the bus have no connection to any of the companies they talk about that they prefer so not sure why they are not allowed to talk about it, same with the people who are of the same opinion about rail.

Of course, some people won't want bus to be brought up in rail topics and rail to be brought up in bus topics. Some of those in the past (no names) have some connection with some of the companies involved and therefore have a vested interest.

For example (in my view) it is not acceptable for a staff member of a rail company to come on here and argue that bus should not be talked about in a thread initially related to rail because they have a vested interested for doing so. The same if an employee of a bus company tried to say talking about a rail option in a bus thread shouldn't be allowed.

Con Logue · 08-05-2013 6:23pm

devnull wrote: »

But not everyone has the knowledge of all of the options that are available to them so it makes no harm in letting them know so they can make a choice of their own at the end of the day.

Generally the people who are mentioning the bus have no connection to any of the companies they talk about that they prefer so not sure why they are not allowed to talk about it, same with the people who are of the same opinion about rail.

Of course, some people won't want bus to be brought up in rail topics and rail to be brought up in bus topics. Some of those in the past (no names) have some connection with some of the companies involved and therefore have a vested interest.

For example (in my view) it is not acceptable for a staff member of a rail company to come on here and argue that bus should not be talked about in a thread initially related to rail because they have a vested interested for doing so. The same if an employee of a bus company tried to say talking about a rail option in a bus thread shouldn't be allowed.

I have no problem with a poster mentioning the bus options but to have the point rehashed ad nauseum destroys the utility of the forum.

devnull · 08-05-2013 6:33pm

Agreed but in this thread I get the feeling that either side are trying to score a win for their viewpoint so to speak, to try and make sure that they can reduce the voice of the people on the other side.

Locking a thread after a question has been answered is a clear attempt at restricting discussion and not allowing a conversation to take place and what needs to happen more than anything on this forum is that all sides are allowed to have their say whether they are pro bus, anti bus, pro rail or anti rail.

The last thing we need is for this place to become nothing but a question and answer place, it's a discussion forum and people should be able to air and share their views whatever thay may be rather than stopping certain views because others do not like them.

I know that Dublin Bus and Irish Rail don't like people to discuss things on their Facebook pages since they disabled being able to make new posts on there, I don't want to see here to become somewhere where discussion is restricted too.

corktina · 08-05-2013 6:34pm

Con Logue wrote: »

I have no problem with a poster mentioning the bus options but to have the point rehashed ad nauseum destroys the utility of the forum.

but on the other hand so does championing the railway in every possible circumstance when it is shown that there are better or cheaper alternatives

Hilly Bill · 08-05-2013 6:34pm

devnull wrote: »

But not everyone has the knowledge of all of the options that are available to them so it makes no harm in letting them know so they can make a choice of their own at the end of the day.

Generally the people who are mentioning the bus have no connection to any of the companies they talk about that they prefer so not sure why they are not allowed to talk about it, same with the people who are of the same opinion about rail.

Of course, some people won't want bus to be brought up in rail topics and rail to be brought up in bus topics. Some of those in the past (no names) have some connection with some of the companies involved and therefore have a vested interest.

For example (in my view) it is not acceptable for a staff member of a rail company to come on here and argue that bus should not be talked about in a thread initially related to rail because they have a vested interested for doing so. The same if an employee of a bus company tried to say talking about a rail option in a bus thread shouldn't be allowed.

If someone asks whats the best way to get to somewhere then fair enough you would give the best info available to you in your opinion.
If someone asks whats the fare by train to say cork then you give them the answer. If they then complain at the cost or ask about other options then you would ask them if they had thought of the bus or any other form of transport and give them the relevant cost involved.
What you dont do is repeat the same stuff in a different thread just because you prefer the bus or train over the other and turn it into an enthusiasts dream.

bk · 08-05-2013 6:40pm

But to me it just seems like sour grapes from one section of the audience.

It seems like the high price of rail can't be defended, so rather then discuss it openly, it seems rail supporters would rather no one ever mentioned cheaper buses or get banned because they do.

To me it seems like sticking your head in the sand.

It also seems that some rail supporters have actually been attempting to orchestrate opportunities for people to get banned and have been actively trying to disrupt the forum, with back seat modding, attempts at calling people trolls, mocking and disrespectful posts obviously designed to elicit a heated response in attempt to get people banned.

I find this sort of behaviour much more disruptive and much more against the rules of boards, then some one mentioning the bus as a cheaper option.

Con Logue · 08-05-2013 6:40pm

corktina wrote: »

but on the other hand so does championing the railway in every possible circumstance when it is shown that there are better or cheaper alternatives

Well I'm certainly not doing that. I would prefer to be silent then because once the bus lark gets in full swing the tone of the forum becomes evangelical and a bit wierd to be honest.

Hilly Bill · 08-05-2013 6:42pm

corktina wrote: »

but on the other hand so does championing the railway in every possible circumstance when it is shown that there are better or cheaper alternatives

There may be better or cheaper alternatives in your opinion but that doesnt mean that the train cant be discussed just because you have shown an alternative. To be honest i disagree with the championing bit as i find that happens a lot in favour of the buses when someone starts a thread about trains in some capacity.

devnull · 08-05-2013 6:44pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

If someone asks whats the best way to get to somewhere then fair enough you would give the best info available to you in your opinion.

Agreed.

If someone asks whats the fare by train to say cork then you give them the answer.

Yes, if you knew that information you could give the answer but if you knew of another option that might be of use to them it's perfectly acceptable to say that too. This is called freedom of speech since others may not be aware of the option, since not everyone has a broad knowledge of exactly what services are out there.

So by your analogy if someone asked how much the bus is from the city center to Vodafone in Leopardstown, we should just tell them the amount and should not mention that not only is the LUAS more regular it is more direct and much quicker for them. That is nonsense. Of course you should mention it since that actually helps the people make an informed decision when they are made aware of all their choices.

If they then complain at the cost or ask about other options then you would ask them if they had thought of the bus or any other form of transport and give them the relevant cost involved.

But why not give them all the info up-front so they can make a choice and know all of the options up-front. Of course, however, the train/bus company mentioned by the original poster would rather than not to happen since by people being advised of alternatives, that means someone may use them.

Hilly Bill · 08-05-2013 6:45pm

bk wrote: »

But to me it just seems like sour grapes from one section of the audience.

It seems like the high price of rail can't be defended, so rather then discuss it openly, it seems rail supporters would rather no one ever mentioned cheaper buses or get banned because they do.

To me it seems like sticking your head in the sand.

It also seems that some rail supporters have actually been attempting to orchestrate opportunities for people to get banned and have been actively trying to disrupt the forum, with back seat modding, attempts at calling people trolls, mocking and disrespectful posts obviously designed to elicit a heated response in attempt to get people banned.

I find this sort of behaviour much more disruptive and much more against the rules of boards, then some one mentioning the bus as a cheaper option.

Here we go. It didnt take long did it

bk · 08-05-2013 6:46pm

Again Hilly Bill, I'd point out the Dublin to Kildare commuter thread where the person only asked about the cheapest way to commute to Dublin. The thread went Off Topic under your strict rules, with people discussing if it was even wise to do this commute. In the end the original poster agreed and decided to rent in Dublin instead.

That very interesting discussion would never have happened under your tyrannical rules Hilly Bill.

The only point of this whole discussion seems to be just an attempt by rail supporters to squash any discussion they don't like. It is frankly very transparent and very much goes against the ethos of boards of open and free discussion.

Con Logue · 08-05-2013 6:47pm

bk wrote: »

But to me it just seems like sour grapes from one section of the audience.

It seems like the high price of rail can't be defended, so rather then discuss it openly, it seems rail supporters would rather no one ever mentioned cheaper buses or get banned because they do.

To me it seems like sticking your head in the sand.

It also seems that some rail supporters have actually been attempting to orchestrate opportunities for people to get banned and have been actively trying to disrupt the forum, with back seat modding, attempts at calling people trolls, mocking and disrespectful posts obviously designed to elicit a heated response in attempt to get people banned.

I find this sort of behaviour much more disruptive and much more against the rules of boards, then some one mentioning the bus as a cheaper option.

There was only one poster who I had a serious beef with, when he got personal and indulged himself in inaccurate speculation about me, my brother and the historical society I belong to.

You are perfectly free to post what you like, but the tone of the forum becomes shrill and an insistence on all comers agreeing with the arguments put forward is a bit of a pain.

Here's a novel idea. We all have different things that give utility to us. For many, price is the only factor. For others, me included, my build and ability to fend off cramp and motion sickness is a push away from the bus and the ability to walk around and have a pint etc on the train is a pull towards that.

But I do not have the right to tell you or anyone else that because I feel a certain way, therefore you must agree with me otherwise you are trolling. Cut that bull out of C&T and then we might get somewhere with it.

devnull · 08-05-2013 6:47pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

There may be better or cheaper alternatives in your opinion but that doesnt mean that the train cant be discussed just because you have shown an alternative. To be honest i disagree with the championing bit as i find that happens a lot in favour of the buses when someone starts a thread about trains in some capacity.

Nobody said that the train could not be discussed, I think in a situation where more than one method of public transport can do the desired trip it is fair to bring any method into the discussion and mentioning the merits of each one.

Anyone who says an alternative should not be brought into a conversation about any train, bus or tram is trying to restrict freedom of speech and that is not something that a discussion forum is about.

devnull · 08-05-2013 6:51pm

Con Logue wrote: »

Here's a novel idea. We all have different things that give utility to us. For many, price is the only factor. For others, me included, my build and ability to fend off cramp and motion sickness is a push away from the bus and the ability to walk around and have a pint etc on the train is a pull towards that.

But that is exactly why all people should have the right to put their point of view across and make sure that casual observers have all the facts and options available to them rather than saying that certain things should not be allowed and posts should be locked. Anyone who is asking for posts to be locked because they do not like others opinions needs to assess if a discussion forum is the right place for them.

But I do not have the right to tell you or anyone else that because I feel a certain way, therefore you must agree with me otherwise you are trolling. Cut that bull out of C&T and then we might get somewhere with it.

I agree and there has been too much accusations of shilling and trolling on here lately, but it is also wrong to say that it does not happen because it clearly does even if not to the heights some people make out.

Hilly Bill · 08-05-2013 6:52pm

devnull wrote: »

Agreed.

Yes, if you knew that information you could give the answer but if you knew of another option that might be of use to them it's perfectly acceptable to say that too. This is called freedom of speech since others may not be aware of the option, since not everyone has a broad knowledge of exactly what services are out there.

So by your analogy if someone asked how much the bus is from the city center to Vodafone in Leopardstown, we should just tell them the amount and should not mention that not only is the LUAS more regular it is more direct and much quicker for them. That is nonsense. Of course you should mention it since that actually helps the people make an informed decision when they are made aware of all their choices.

But why not give them all the info up-front so they can make a choice and know all of the options up-front. Of course, however, the train/bus company mentioned by the original poster would rather than not to happen since by people being advised of alternatives, that means someone may use them.

Personally im in favor of giving someone what they ask for. I agree that there is no harm in giving an alternative if it merits it but it gets silly when it goes way off topic and talks about the different classes of trains and buses that used to be on the route and what there should be now . It doesnt take 8 pages to give an answer and an alternative especially when the OP isnt active in the thread.

bk · 08-05-2013 6:53pm

Hill Billy I've been trying very hard not to point it out, but it is so obvious what one section of the audience is trying to do on this forum, that it is almost impossible not to mention it.

Ok let me put it in generic terms.

Any time posts about topic y are made, fans of topic x have been disruptive on these threads and are now attempting to moderate the forum for their own benefit and basically get any discussion of topic y banned.

Frankly it is sickening carry on and very much goes against the ethos of boards.ie

Hilly Bill · 08-05-2013 6:57pm

bk wrote: »

Again Hilly Bill, I'd point out the Dublin to Kildare commuter thread where the person only asked about the cheapest way to commute to Dublin. The thread went Off Topic under your strict rules, with people discussing if it was even wise to do this commute. In the end the original poster agreed and decided to rent in Dublin instead.

That very interesting discussion would never have happened under your tyrannical rules Hilly Bill.

The only point of this whole discussion seems to be just an attempt by rail supporters to squash any discussion they don't like. It is frankly very transparent and very much goes against the ethos of boards of open and free discussion.

Tyrannical rules?????

I can see what you are trying to do so i'll move on

devnull · 08-05-2013 6:58pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Personally im in favor of giving someone what they ask for. I agree that there is no harm in giving an alternative if it merits it but it gets silly when it goes way off topic and talks about the different classes of trains and buses that used to be on the route and what there should be now . It doesnt take 8 pages to give an answer and an alternative especially when the OP isnt active in the thread.

No but at the same time I am a champion of free speech and that is what boards is about and if you don't like a post on here then unfortunately that is just the way forums go, you will read messages and meet people on forums which you have differing views to just like you will in daily life outside of boards.ie. They have just as much right to air their view as you and vice versa.

I'm a favour of giving someone the best information to make them an informed decision, for example if I travel abroad and I want to buy a train or bus ticket for somewhere and I ask for it and I get it, good, but if there are other options that may suit my needs better and the person outlines these to me, then that is even better and I'd really appreciate that.

Con Logue · 08-05-2013 6:59pm

devnull wrote: »

But that is exactly why all people should have the right to put their point of view across and make sure that casual observers have all the facts and options available to them rather than saying that certain things should not be allowed and posts should be locked. Anyone who is asking for posts to be locked because they do not like others opinions needs to assess if a discussion forum is the right place for them.

I agree and there has been too much accusations of shilling and trolling on here lately, but it is also wrong to say that it does not happen because it clearly does even if not to the heights some people make out.

I really think that this Casual Observer trope should be dropped. It makes the place full of amateur actors going down on one knee and emoting. It would also cut out the cartoon version of reality being peddled at times. I'm not posting for an audience as I believe in the relative intelligence of humanity. Spoon feeding is all right for toddlers but not for grown adults.

The other aspect is that we do not have unbridled and consequence free speech on this, or any forum. Site rules and libel laws apply and posting is a privilege, not a right.

What buffybot said earlier is the most relevant thing posted here today:

I think a few people on this forum need to take a large step back and look at the general standard of behaviour they engage in. The mods here have an enormously tough job - and guess why? It's because some folks think they can pretty much tackle everyone who opposes their viewpoint to the ground and mercilessly badger the bejesus out of them. And this goes for all sides of the debate: I've read this forum for quite a while and I don't think some of the participants realise how appalingly petty they have come across with their obessive behaviour, abusive postings, "pet" names for those who disagree with whatever viewpoint they hold, and continual dragging topics into multi-page hair pulling.

Moderation of commuting and transport

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