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29-03-2012, 19:57   #691
Brown Bomber
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Originally Posted by robindch View Post
As Magic points out above, he seems to have practised so much lovin' that he must have been a real pro:

http://www.snopes.com/history/american/mlking.asp
???

Is that a tongue-in-cheek response to Martin Luther King Jr being a fundamentalist Christian who spoke tirelessly of peace, fought tirelessly for peace, justice and equality, who ost his life fighting for peace and who was inspired and strengthened to effecting tremendous societal progression through his faith in his religion?
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29-03-2012, 20:07   #692
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How can an adulterer be a fundamentalist christian?
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29-03-2012, 20:33   #693
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How can an adulterer be a fundamentalist christian?
You seem to be confusing a fundamentalist Christian with Jesus Christ.
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29-03-2012, 20:59   #694
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You seem to be confusing a fundamentalist Christian with Jesus Christ.
You seem to be confusing a person who strictly adheres to the teachings of their religion with someone who can't even get some of the basics right.
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29-03-2012, 22:06   #695
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Answering in a poll isn't talking about peace to be fair, anymore than voting in an election is. (IMO at least)
You understand that answering a poll doesn't do anything, where as voting in election effects the outcome of the election, correct?

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I'm not entirely sure what the above is an example of
It is an example of Muslims talking about peace but acting differently.

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What percentage of drone attacks - through history - have targetted non-Muslims? I don't believe there have ever been even one.
Do you mean all drone attacks (unmanned drones have been used since the first world war), or do you mean specifically the modern US predator drones, first used in 1999 in Bosnia?

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These attacks have killed thousands of Muslim civilians, including 160 Muslim children, often from the same families.
Yes, that is the point. How many of the Muslims who answered your poll vote for a government that is happy to use drone attacks?

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Using your singular example could it be that the evil teachings of religion, specifically Islam is not the motivation for all Islamic terrorism but it is a response to perceived injustice?

Well it could be and is. A good example is the would-be Times Square bomber in 2010 who was motivated by CIA drone attacks in Pakistan.
And blowing up Times Square prevents drone attacks in Pakistan how exactly?

Or was it simply a religious notion of righteous blood thirst that motivated him, he didn't think it would stop anything he just wanted to kill people because he was angered by US military actions, and he believed that his religion justified such actions so he himself was justified in carrying them out?

Last edited by Zombrex; 29-03-2012 at 22:10.
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29-03-2012, 23:51   #696
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You understand that answering a poll doesn't do anything, where as voting in election effects the outcome of the election, correct?
Likewise answering in a poll effects the outcome of the poll.

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It is an example of Muslims talking about peace but acting differently.
No it isn't. Voting in an election is not an act of violence. That's an absurd claim.

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Do you mean all drone attacks (unmanned drones have been used since the first world war), or do you mean specifically the modern US predator drones, first used in 1999 in Bosnia?
To be fair what did you think I meant when I said "attacked" by? Obviously not the toy aeroplanes used in WWI nor any surveillance missions. It was explicit that I meant attacked and by attacked I mean a target struck with a missile/rocket from a drone.

Are there an examples of any drone attacks against non-Muslims?

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Yes, that is the point. How many of the Muslims who answered your poll vote for a government that is happy to use drone attacks?
That's a ridiculous question since both participating in elections and voting in polls is confidential.

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And blowing up Times Square prevents drone attacks in Pakistan how exactly?
I never said it did. I said it was blowback, which it was.

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Or was it simply a religious notion of righteous blood thirst that motivated him, he didn't think it would stop anything he just wanted to kill people because he was angered by US military actions, and he believed that his religion justified such actions so he himself was justified in carrying them out?
I've already answered that question. His stated motivation, under oath was his outrage at US Foriegn Policy. Specifically CIA drone attacks against Pakistanis. He freely stated this in court.
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30-03-2012, 00:00   #697
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You seem to be confusing a person who strictly adheres to the teachings of their religion with someone who can't even get some of the basics right.
That is total nonsense. Are you honestly trying to claim the MLK even get "some of the basics right" of his Baptist faith?

Your Daily Mail style muckraking proves nothing. This is what I have claimed. I am open to correction please point out anything that is not factual and why.

  1. MLK was a Christian Fundamentalist
  2. MLK was a committed advocate of peace, justice and equality.
  3. MLK gave great efforts to realise peace, justice and equality.
  4. MLK was inspired through his faith to make these great efforts which contributed significantly to to equality and civil rights in the US and had a ripple effect throughout the world.
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30-03-2012, 08:22   #698
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That is total nonsense. Are you honestly trying to claim the MLK even get "some of the basics right" of his Baptist faith?

Your Daily Mail style muckraking proves nothing. This is what I have claimed. I am open to correction please point out anything that is not factual and why.

  1. MLK was a Christian Fundamentalist
  2. MLK was a committed advocate of peace, justice and equality.
  3. MLK gave great efforts to realise peace, justice and equality.
  4. MLK was inspired through his faith to make these great efforts which contributed significantly to to equality and civil rights in the US and had a ripple effect throughout the world.
The only part I'm talking about is the fundamentalist bit, fundamentalism being the strict adherence to teachings of his religion.

If cheating on his wife doesn't take away the fundamentalist part, well I guess I'm a fundamentalist vegetarian.

Just on number 4, would MLK have been so inspired by his faith had he been white?
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30-03-2012, 23:01   #699
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Are there an examples of any drone attacks against non-Muslims?
Well the US predator drones were first used during the Bosnian War against Serb positions and were also used against the Serbian army in Kosovo so yes there have been drone attacks against non-Muslims.

There have also been a small number of unconfirmed reports of drones being used in attacks in Colombia and Mexico but there has been no firm evidence provided for this.
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31-03-2012, 15:33   #700
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The only part I'm talking about is the fundamentalist bit, fundamentalism being the strict adherence to teachings of his religion.

If cheating on his wife doesn't take away the fundamentalist part, well I guess I'm a fundamentalist vegetarian.
Commiting sin doesn't make you any less Christian or fundamentalist. What would make you less fundamentalist would be embracing modernist ideas.

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Just on number 4, would MLK have been so inspired by his faith had he been white?
Well if you accept that it was divine inspiration as he claimed then obviously the colour of his skin wouldn't matter.

However, you do raise an interesting point. Are you suggesting that MLK could have been motivated by oppression and injustice to take action? That his religious beleifs have nothing to do with it, despite him being religious? That has been my point all along regarding Islamic extremism.
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31-03-2012, 15:38   #701
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Well the US predator drones were first used during the Bosnian War against Serb positions and were also used against the Serbian army in Kosovo so yes there have been drone attacks against non-Muslims.
Yes they were "used" but for surveillance not for search and destroy missions and therefore never "attacked" anyone.

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There have also been a small number of unconfirmed reports of drones being used in attacks in Colombia and Mexico but there has been no firm evidence provided for this.
Okay, but there are unconfirmed reports of alien abductions. Unconfrimed reports are worthless.

Which leaves us with 100% of all drone attacks - Somalia, Yemen, Palestine, Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan - targetting Muslims.
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31-03-2012, 17:48   #702
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Yes they were "used" but for surveillance not for search and destroy missions and therefore never "attacked" anyone.
Fair enough I always thought they were used for offensive purposes in both Bosnia and Kosovo, after a bit of research it's clear they were the early stage of development. "Offensive" UAV's only came into being in 2000/2001.


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Okay, but there are unconfirmed reports of alien abductions. Unconfrimed reports are worthless.
Shrug, I agree but I do give some of those reports a bit of creedence. I very much suspect that the US has utilised UAV's in Mexico and Colombia but as you say I await firm evidence.

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Which leaves us with 100% of all drone attacks - Somalia, Yemen, Palestine, Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan - targetting Muslims.
This isn't as suprising as it appears if you allow me to explain. All US conflicts since the end of Kosovo have involved Muslim states due to the "War" on Terror. Furthermore UAV technology is very new. As far as I am aware the US has not been involved in any war with non-Muslim countries since then so no reason for offensive droens to be used. If the US becomes involved in warfare in non-Muslim areas any time soon expect Predators to be out in force very quickly.

I haven't had time to research the UAV capabilities of any other state to any great extent. I know Italy, France, UK, Germany, Turkey, possibly Taiwan and Iran and Israel have operational offensive drones.I also firmly suspect China and Russia do. From what I can see only Israel has used them offensively.


Anyway this is very far off topic so maybe I should just stop there.
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31-03-2012, 21:33   #703
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However, you do raise an interesting point. Are you suggesting that MLK could have been motivated by oppression and injustice to take action? That his religious beleifs have nothing to do with it, despite him being religious? That has been my point all along regarding Islamic extremism.
I'm not saying his religious beliefs had nothing to do with it, just that it was no coincidence that one of the greatest leaders of the civil rights movement was an African-American. Had he been white, I feel confident in assuming his beliefs wouldn't have had such an inspiring effect.
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01-04-2012, 16:21   #704
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Had he been white, I feel confident in assuming his beliefs wouldn't have had such an inspiring effect.
It's impossible to say, especially as they were white religious people who were inspired by their faith to commit to the same cause such as Jonathan Myrick Daniels, a seminarian who was killed for marching before MLK. He wrote on his inspiration/motivation:
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"My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour." I had come to Evening Prayer as usual that evening, and as usual I was singing the Magnificat with the special love and reverence I have always felt for Mary's glad song. "He hath showed strength with his arm." As the lovely hymn of the God-bearer continued, I found myself peculiarly alert, suddenly straining toward the decisive, luminous, Spirit-filled "moment" that would, in retrospect, remind me of others--particularly one at Easter three years ago. Then it came. "He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble and meek. He hath filled the hungry with good things." I knew then that I must go to Selma. The Virgin's song was to grow more and more dear in the weeks ahead.
http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bio/228.html
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01-04-2012, 16:31   #705
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Fair enough I always thought they were used for offensive purposes in both Bosnia and Kosovo, after a bit of research it's clear they were the early stage of development. "Offensive" UAV's only came into being in 2000/2001.
So it's now established that drones have only ever attacked Muslims. can you at least imagine how this could be troublesome for Muslims?

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This isn't as suprising as it appears if you allow me to explain. All US conflicts since the end of Kosovo have involved Muslim states due to the "War" on Terror. Furthermore UAV technology is very new. As far as I am aware the US has not been involved in any war with non-Muslim countries since then so no reason for offensive droens to be used. If the US becomes involved in warfare in non-Muslim areas any time soon expect Predators to be out in force very quickly.
.
Yes, but it's the "War on Terror" which is targetting Muslims, as we have established that is creating "terrorists" which you seem to exlusively blame on religion.

For example, Jeremy Scahill visited Yemen for The Nation recently.

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The October drone strike that killed Awlaki’s 16-year-old son, Abdulrahman, a US citizen, and his teenage cousin shocked and enraged Yemenis of all political stripes. “I firmly believe that the [military] operations implemented by the US performed a great service for Al Qaeda, because those operations gave Al Qaeda unprecedented local sympathy,” says Jamal, the Yemeni journalist. The strikes “have recruited thousands.” Yemeni tribesmen, he says, share one common goal with Al Qaeda, “which is revenge against the Americans, because those who were killed are the sons of the tribesmen, and the tribesmen never, ever give up on revenge.” Even senior officials of the Saleh regime recognize the damage the strikes have caused. “People certainly resent these [US] interventions,” Qirbi, the foreign minister and a close Saleh ally, concedes.
http://www.thenation.com/article/166...emen-backfires
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