What could we miss out on by not baptising?

Hitchhiker's Guide to... · 07-03-2012 1:16pm #1

This has kind of been asked before, but was a good while ago, so hope don't mind me starting a new thread.

....

We're thinking of not baptising our now six-month child and are wondering if she will practically miss out on anything - particularly schooling. But also anything else we might not have considered.

There's absolutely no moral objection to any of the religions, just seems like we would be going through the motions. Although if means she has more certain access to good schools then we would be happy to baptise her for that practical reason. No reason why she should miss out on going to a good school just because the schooling system gives preference to religiosity.

Is religion still a factor in school admittance? We're in Howth-Sutton where the primary schools seems to be identifiably either Protestant / Catholic and we wouldn't have any connection to the schools to get in on the 'child of a former student' rule. Fully happy to choose actual religion dependent on school, but no idea if this is actually necessary, and not sure if school can overtly tell you that it is important.

What's in the back of my mind is that where I went to school there were three schools - two Catholics schools and a 'tech' (think that's what it was called). The tech was the non-religious school but also the dodgy school; you would have been quite disadvantaged in you had ended up there. Just not sure if that type of schooling is still in place.

I am a friend · 07-03-2012 2:22pm

Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »

Fully happy to choose actual religion dependent on school

I am really shocked that anyone would make this statement to be honest.

A religion is not there for your benefit and you certainly shouldnt be baptising your child and using the sacrement of baptism to get them into a school.:mad:

mcbert · 07-03-2012 2:33pm

I am a friend wrote: »

I am really shocked that anyone would make this statement to be honest.

A religion is not there for your benefit and you certainly shouldnt be baptising your child and using the sacrement of baptism to get them into a school.:mad:

Shocked? Really? A little out of touch there me thinks! Its pretty common.

If there was more choice in non-religious schools, people wouldnt have to resort to this sort of nonsense. I dont condone it, but it has been forced onto alot of people.

I know a couple who, after a catholic baptism, were then considering having a protestant baptism to get their child into a different/better(in their opinion) school.

mikemac1 · 07-03-2012 2:40pm

Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »

We're thinking of not baptising our now six-month child and are wondering if she will practically miss out on anything

Well they won't be getting the sacraments, first holy confession, first communion and so on.
So for a primary school they can go sit in another classroom to be supervised. No big deal but all children will feel left out.
You asked for a practical example and there is one

Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »

Is religion still a factor in school admittance? We're in Howth-Sutton where the primary schools seems to be identifiably either Protestant / Catholic and we wouldn't have any connection to the schools to get in on the 'child of a former student' rule.

Schools must have a policy and you are free to call in and ask for a copy.
Having brothers or sisters there is a common one, living in the locality is another, some use waiting lists and there are lots of different policies and it's up to the school how they rank them.

So ask for the policy from the local schools and read them.

Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »

Fully happy to choose actual religion dependent on school, but no idea if this is actually necessary, and not sure if school can overtly tell you that it is important.

All too common attitude and once you read the schools admissions policies it might be unneccesary

You obviously don't care about religion, fair enough but maybe then don't baptize the child and they can make their own decision when they are older

Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »

What's in the back of my mind is that where I went to school there were three schools - two Catholics schools and a 'tech' (think that's what it was called).

You're talking about primary schools.
I know for secondary school our town had a CBS, what we called the convent for girls as nuns ran it and the tech was run by the local VEC
All as good as each other realy. You live in a city so maybe it's much the same for primary schools

gbee · 07-03-2012 2:41pm

mcbert wrote: »

Shocked? Really? A little out of touch there me thinks! Its pretty common.

Seemingly some 80% of parents just follow on for convenience while holding no religious faith whatsoever. So, pretty common it certainly is.

Draupnir · 07-03-2012 2:42pm

I am a friend wrote: »

I am really shocked that anyone would make this statement to be honest.

A religion is not there for your benefit and you certainly shouldnt be baptising your child and using the sacrement of baptism to get them into a school.:mad:

That's your opinion of religion. Others unfortunately see it as a nonsense that acts as a barrier to entry for innocent children to a proper education.

It's not the OP's fault that schools prejudge children based upon membership of another, completely unrelated, organisation.

Grawns · 07-03-2012 2:43pm

I'm not so easily shocked but I wouldn't baptise my child as a catholic because I hate the institution of the Catholic church. Hate is probably not a strong enough word.

I certainly wouldn't judge you for doing it but unless you are a Protestant the church might look askance at you for baptising your child as a Protestant. Luckily for me my husband is Protestant so we can baptise her if we need to. I would rather not but education is very important and getting into a good school is the best start.

My 1st choice school, (excellent and only a short walk) says religion is not a criteria for entry even though it is nominally a catholic school. I put her religion down as Protestant on the application form.

Get in touch with the schools you are interested in and find out their enrollment policies.

gbee · 07-03-2012 2:44pm

My view suggest that it's child abuse to bring up a child in a religion, any one of them. The child needs to be free to explore and if it wants religion there are many available and one does not need to be tied to one only.

So, I applaud your thinking and I do respect your opinion that religion would not be a stumbling block, as you are rightly putting your child's benefit first.

mcbert · 07-03-2012 2:49pm

gbee wrote: »

Seemingly some 80% of parents just follow on for convenience while holding no religious faith whatsoever. So, pretty common it certainly is.

Ohh, interesting. Where d'ya get that number from? My partner wanted our child baptised. I didnt. So we all went to the church, and I just sat there and didnt take part in the ceremony. I took a small stand, made my point, nobody else cared in the slightest.

Hitchhiker's Guide to... · 07-03-2012 2:52pm

Draupnir wrote: »

That's your opinion of religion. Others unfortunately see it as a nonsense that acts as a barrier to entry for innocent children to a proper education.

It's not the OP's fault that schools prejudge children based upon membership of another, completely unrelated, organisation.

Thanks!

Sorry might have sounded flippant in OP. Would attach strong importance to idea of spirituality, but tbh couldn't keep up the pretence of supporting a religion. But if system is set up in such a way as to favour expressed religiosity, then surely natural to take account of that.

To use an analogy, if you can raise a child's reading ability by reading to them at night, then you will probably want to do that. Similarly, if you can raise a child's reading ability by getting them into a good school that requires a particular religion, then that's also something to at least consider. We all do these socially necessary things

Orion · 07-03-2012 2:55pm

Not specifically a parenting or school question so moving to A&A.

Hitchhiker's Guide to... · 07-03-2012 2:55pm

mikemac1 wrote: »

Well they won't be getting the sacraments, first holy confession, first communion and so on.
So for a primary school they can go sit in another classroom to be supervised. No big deal but all children will feel left out.
You asked for a practical example and there is one

Have given serious consideration to this - really think its lovely, especially the first communion for girls in particular. Sad thing is, this is probably the biggest pro in favour of picking a religion. But it really is a lovely ceremony.

Mark Hamill · 07-03-2012 3:01pm

Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »

Have given serious consideration to this - really think its lovely, especially the first communion for girls in particular. Sad thing is, this is probably the biggest pro in favour of picking a religion. But it really is a lovely ceremony.

You know that you can put your 7 year old in a dress without having to bring them to a church as well? The church doesn't own all white dresses.

Hitchhiker's Guide to... · 07-03-2012 3:03pm

Orion wrote: »

Not specifically a parenting or school question so moving to A&A.

hmm guess Orion didn't actually read the thread before moving as specifically was asking about schooling

mcbert · 07-03-2012 3:05pm

Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »

Have given serious consideration to this - really think its lovely, especially the first communion for girls in particular. Sad thing is, this is probably the biggest pro in favour of picking a religion. But it really is a lovely ceremony.

My memory of that day is of boys being most interested in the money they got, and the girls comparing their dresses with each other. Kind of a clichéd memory... religion was a distant third anyway (if it was even at the races at all)

kylith · 07-03-2012 3:06pm

Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »

Have given serious consideration to this - really think its lovely, especially the first communion for girls in particular. Sad thing is, this is probably the biggest pro in favour of picking a religion. But it really is a lovely ceremony.

Is one ceremony worth years of indoctrination, and preaching that the child will go to hell?

Orion · 07-03-2012 3:13pm

Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »

But also anything else we might not have considered.

This was the reason - the op was fairly open - schooling or any other considerations. If you want to move it back that's fine by me too.

robindch · 07-03-2012 3:16pm

Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »

There's absolutely no moral objection to any of the religions,

Have a read up on them. Even better, read the bible.

Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »

Is religion still a factor in school admittance?

Yes. Schools which are controlled by unelected religious officials are able, at a whim, to refuse to educate any child on religious "grounds" alone.

Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »

Fully happy to choose actual religion dependent on school, but no idea if this is actually necessary, and not sure if school can overtly tell you that it is important.

As above, you might want to find out what's religious people will tell your child before you decide to leave them to it.

WRT management, here's an article which appeared in yesterday's Irish Times by somebody who claims to have been on the board of management of a school controlled by religious officials:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/education/2012/0306/1224312846810.html

Hitchhiker's Guide to... · 07-03-2012 3:23pm

Orion wrote: »

This was the reason - the op was fairly open - schooling or any other considerations. If you want to move it back that's fine by me too.

ahh sorry! Would that be possible to move back? Maybe I could just specify that specifically talking about schooling related. By 'any other considerations' I meant, but didn't clarify, purely practical things like official documents etc. We're fairly clueless on the whole religion thing hence the 'and anything else'. But think its around now need to at least start considering schools, so that's the more immediate concern.

Zamboni · 07-03-2012 3:30pm

It is a fairly serious issue if you choose not to baptise a child in Ireland from an education perspective.
With the current baby boom recorded by the CSO and the Catholic First ethos undertaken by a vast amont of Catholic schools, it will be incredibly difficult to find a schooling place for your child without a baptism.
This is of course changing with the increasing number of Educate Together Schools but it is at a very slow pace and certainly not at a pace which will meet the demand for non catholic school places.
The current and indeed pipelined Educate Together schools are already vastly over subscribed on pre-enrolements.

gbee · 07-03-2012 3:32pm

mcbert wrote: »

I took a small stand, made my point, nobody else cared in the slightest.

I'm very sorry, maybe I should make that 100%

Hitchhiker's Guide to... · 07-03-2012 3:32pm

Thanks for all the responses by the way, very interesting.

LordSutch · 07-03-2012 3:34pm

Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »

What could we miss out on by not baptising?

Schools (choice of).

Marriage?

Hitchhiker's Guide to... · 07-03-2012 3:37pm

LordSutch wrote: »

Schools (choice of).

Marriage?

Confused as to last one; but are most primary schools still religious? i.e. do we realistically have to suck-it-up and pick a religion if we want a good choice of schools? (nearest Educate Together is too far away in Kilbarrack).

magicbastarder · 07-03-2012 3:39pm

i'm curious as to how easy it is for two catholics to turn up at the door of a protestant church and get their kid baptised there?
if the parents are not familiar with the faith, surely there would be question marks about their ability to raise the kid in that faith?

Orion · 07-03-2012 3:42pm

Zamboni wrote: »

Catholic First ethos undertaken by a vast amont of Catholic schools, it will be incredibly difficult to find a schooling place for your child without a baptism.

Actually not all Catholic school operate a Catholic first policy. I was guilty of thinking that myself but one of the Primary mods recently set me straight - he works in a catholic school who don't use religion as an enrolment criteria.

Every school has its own enrolment policy. Any parent can (and should) get a copy of it and read it before enrolling.

Penn · 07-03-2012 3:42pm

School is the big issue. Have you checked to see if there are any Educate Together schools (non-religious) nearby that you could send your child to?

http://www.educatetogether.ie/schools-start-up-groups/#

MrPudding · 07-03-2012 3:43pm

LordSutch wrote: »

Marriage?

ONly baptised epople can get married now? :eek:

MrP

Hitchhiker's Guide to... · 07-03-2012 3:44pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'm curious as to how easy it is for two catholics to turn up at the door of a protestant church and get their kid baptised there?
if the parents are not familiar with the faith, surely there would be question marks about their ability to raise the kid in that faith?

ah I'm Catholic but wife is Orthodox, so there should be a bit of flexibility in terms of choice. Think I've heard of an increase in Catholic parents christening their kids Protestant, but could easily have imagined that. Although ideally would just let the child make her own mind up rather than giving her a randomly selected religion, which seems like a somewhat out-of-date way of doing things.

robindch · 07-03-2012 3:47pm

Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »

Confused as to last one; but are most primary schools still religious?

Around 98% are controlled by religious organizations -- 93% by the RCC, 5% by a range of protestant organizations and a smattering of minor ones, and around 2% by Educate Together who run their schools in an open, democratic manner with the full participation of parents.

Hitchhiker's Guide to... wrote: »

do we realistically have to suck-it-up and pick a religion if we want a good choice of schools? (nearest Educate Together is too far away in Kilbarrack).

If you have no ET school close by, then you may have to do some religious kowtowing. It depends completely on the school, and on the board of management, principal, etc. Some schools are unashamedly sectarian and others couldn't care less -- you'll simply have to suck it and see. Or speak to parents who have kids in the various schools in your area and find out what they had to do. Bear in mind that picking a religion in order to be able to ensure that your child receives an education appears to be quite common.

Hitchhiker's Guide to... · 07-03-2012 3:50pm

Orion wrote: »

Actually not all Catholic school operate a Catholic first policy. I was guilty of thinking that myself but one of the Primary mods recently set me straight - he works in a catholic school who don't use religion as an enrolment criteria.

Every school has its own enrolment policy. Any parent can (and should) get a copy of it and read it before enrolling.

Actually threw out the brochure from one of the local schools, must get it again. Do you know whether even if religion is not an enrolment criteria, that 'no religion at all', might be frowned upon? Or is it literally that they simply do not consider anything to do with religiosity?

/ Thanks for all the responses. Seems like the next step is really to contact the local schools and see what their policies are, as that's presumably going to be the key factor.

What could we miss out on by not baptising?

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