Originally Posted by Zombrex
And? You claimed "Christian societies rarely killed people"
Your claim wasn't "Christian societies rarely killed people under order of the Church"
What is a christian society?
Is it a society with majority christians?
No it isnt in my definition since clearly such a thing could be secular.
By christian i mean run by them or the church having influence on the state.
in fact Norway is christian under this definition.
why did I come up with such a definition?
Because atheists kept discussing a "secular" society.
a secular society could in theory be a majority christian or even a majority atheist society.
I am not aware of majrioy atheist modern democracies.
i would be suspicious of any but i dont thin atheism will grow into a majority anyway.
A minority can however take over a country.
In the UK for example 30% of the vote can get a parliamentary majority. Hitler did it in Germany when the roman catholics didnt vote for him.
Christianity has no rule saying "you must politically rule society" no more than atheism has
So we are comparing atheism as a belief/lack of belief used in running society compared to Christianity used in society.
the Byzantine Society for example was inextricably linked to the church.
the Papal states were and any European king claiming to be christian was.
Now if there was a majority atheist country with an atheist leader who went to war i would not consider that leader acting based on his atheism unless the State or ruler had "there is no god" as a central political belief.
Guess what -ALL atheistic regimes are just that - ones that have atheism as a central tenet of their political philosophy.
Atheist societies have never killed people under order of the Church, so I guess we are still the best society.
ALL "there is no god" societies were murder regimes! Stalin Pol Pot Mao etc. killed in the hundreds of millions. in the nineteenth century and Middle Ages and Ancient times atheist regimes existed as did christian o,nes. The deaths caused by christian regimes (of which there many ) are tiny compared to the atheistic deaths.
They were Christians. They killed people.
Don,t you love the shell games the atheists play
If atheists kill people it isnt because of atheism- they just happen to be atheist.
It isnt because of atheism.
But if so called Christians do it Christianity is to blame.
You are ignoring examples of Christian killing people. You are saying they are not relevant because they weren't killing people in the name of the Church or the name of Christianity or some other nonsense addition you add after your nonsense has been exposed and you are trying to save face.
Not at all
Crusades -about a million dead with the specific purpose of spreading Christianity
Spanish Inquisition -about 15 thousand dead over 450 years
Afro/American slavery - In the short church approved time (30 years) millions of dead. church/ several pôpes later opposed it.
thirty years War - does Christians against Christians count?
Witchhunts _ five thousand? Not usually in roman catholic countries.
It runs into millions over 2000 years
Here are estimate of christian atheist and non christian regimes.
17th to 19 century
1820 back to 1200
30BC to 20AD
somewhere between 300 million and 1.3 billion!
you can hardly blame the Pope for those?
How could non christian deaths be so high whrn the world population was about 200 million
If from the rule of the first of the Roman Emperors (Augustus Octavian) in 27 B.C to the last (Romulus Augustulus) who ruled until 476 A.D., only 100 galley slaves died annually from overwork and mistreatment, then this alone would add up to a democide of 50,300 people. Now say that on the average for the whole empire the Romans killed a not unreasonable annual total of 10,000 infants, slaves, prisoners, Christians, inhabitants of defeated tribes and nations, and dissidents and opponents. Then for the reign of Roman emperors this would add up to a democide of over 5,000,000 people--just for this one empire. Therefore, the 89,158,000 to 260,424,000 range of total people killed I get in table 2.1B (line 747) for all pre-20th Century democide of all civilizations, empires, nations, and tribes, should be viewed as but a small part of the real total.
But how small? To get some sense for this, see table 2.2. Based on the range of 20th century democide determined in table 16A.1 and the estimated world population for each century since the 30th century B.C. (near in time to the development of Egyptian hieroglyphics and the unification of Egypt under Menes), I calculated the hypothetical democide for each century. Alternatively, I started the democide calculations for the century having the earliest estimates of mass murder in Tables 2.1A and 2.1B, which is the 5th century B.C. (the time of Socrates, Pericles, and the Peloponnesian Wars).
The results of adding up these century-by-century calculations are shown in table 2.2 (lines 50 and 51). For both alternative calculations the high is over a billion people killed; the lows are near a third of a billion people; and the mid-values near two-thirds or a half of a billion.
you got any figures for numbers killed by The Church to spread Christianity comparable to the spread atheism regimes of Mao or Stalin?
Japan -hardly christian?
From the invasion of China in 1937 to the end of World War II, the Japanese military regime murdered near 3,000,000 to over 10,000,000 people, most probably almost 6,000,000
Cambodias atheistic Kyher rouge:
In proportion to its population, Cambodia underwent a human catastrophe unparalleled in this century. Out of a 1970 population of probably near 7,100,0001 Cambodia probably lost slightly less than 4,000,000 people to war, rebellion, man-made famine, genocide, politicide, and mass murder. The vast majority, almost 3,300,000 men, women, and children (including 35,000 foreigners), were murdered within the years 1970 to 1980 by successive governments and guerrilla groups.
his estimate on atheist North Korea from 1948-1987
Perhaps from 710,000 to slightly over 3,500,000 people have been murdered, with a mid-estimate of almost 1,600,000
i have already mentioned Stalin and Mao who rate in the tens of millions each as well as atheistic Mexico and France during its atheistic terror where they murdered about a half million catholics and starved the population ot the Vendee to death.
Here is an interesting list of your "secular " 20 century non christian non church caused deaths
How many atheist societies have killed people in the name of the Church? I bet none. So clearly atheists are better than Christians, right?
Atheist societies and even secular ones have killed people by the newtime. when you claim the church is responsible for so much death you have to put it in perspective. It is similar to the point about the less than one percent of abusers who are priests.