Enda Kenny to make irish optional?

Salty · 20-02-2011 10:33pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Well if you're not really even attempting to argue against what I'm saying, what's the point?

Tá sé ag argóint in aghaidh tusa, ach is léir nach dtuigeann tú cad a bhí a rá aige ina abairt deireanach.

deirdremf · 20-02-2011 10:33pm

colmos wrote: »

To be honest, I have to say I'm disgusted to hear that some people still want to force this language down people's throats.

You all argue about this culture crap. I have studied Irish against my will for 14 years, doing the LC this year. I have never used this language outside of school... NEVER. I think it's the biggest waste of time in the educational system. If I didn't have to study this, I could have better spent those years advancing my knowledge of Maths or Sciences. This useless subject has just dragged me back. I despise it. Yet I have to study it for the LC. If I didn't have to do this, I could have studied Physics, Accounting, Geography, Economics or Construction etc.

Do you people have any idea how much more those subjects could have been worth to me? I could have actually applied these subjects in college or later life.

Why must you feel in all of your narrow minded glory that you must force me and others like me to learn this junk? Have you any practical use of the language to suggest? Because cultural excuses are NOT practical.

All I want is that people would actually have the option to choose whether they want to do Irish or not.

WHAT'S WRONG WITH GIVING PEOPLE CHOICE?

It's too late for any changes to happen for me but I do want to help younger people like me who have no interest in this waste of time of a language.

Sad to see this hate filled diatribe. I feel so sorry for you. I wonder where this hate came from. Did you come up with it yourself, or did you learn it at home?
As for "cultural excuses", well the next time you listen to a song you like, ask yourself why you are wasting your time with "culture crap" - your word, not mine!!!

REMEMBER: NO ONE IS TRYING TO KILL YOUR PRECIOUS LANGUAGE, THEY JUST WANT A CHOICE WHETHER TO STUDY IT OR NOT... :mad:

Strangely enough, after 400 years of attempts at killing Irish, I think that this is one comment I will take with heaps of salt.
Regarding choice, well, you can now make your decision to give up Irish entirely. But if you stay in Ireland, I bet a child or grandchild of yours will take up the language despite your hatred of it.

Dan_Solo · 20-02-2011 10:36pm

_meehan_ wrote: »

I reckon it is relevant, because you seem to be the only one who has consistantly returned again and again to express your negativity towards the language. You obviously harbour some sort of personal grudge against the language, since your comments seem to be dripping with utter hatred.

What difference would there be between us and the English, or the Americans, if we get rid of Irish?
Faic, sin an freagair.

I was waiting for somebody to put their foot in it and pretend that I didn't "like" Irish. Where have I said I was "against" Irish? I am against it being artificially propped up when the vast majority of Irish people don't want to speak it.
I will ask you to show me where I even hinted that I hate Irish. You will no doubt point to many of the things I have said against Irish being compulsory in schools as "evidence". It is not. Don't make a fool of yourself by pretending they are.
What makes you think I am shallow enough to require competence in a second, mostly unusable, language to differentiate myself from the English or Americans? Or why I would even care about whether I am different from them or not?

deirdremf · 20-02-2011 10:37pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

http://www.galwayindependent.com/local-news/local-news/fg-denies-policy-poses-threat-to-gaeltacht/

However, the party’s Connemara candidate Cllr Seán Kyne has stressed that there will be “no change” in the compulsory nature of the subject until a full consultation has been carried out with affected stakeholders, including Irish language groups, mná na tithe, teachers’ groups and Gaeltacht residents.

So is the story that they will carry out a "full consultation" and then drop the subject?
Or is that not how these things are usually done?

Dan_Solo · 20-02-2011 10:40pm

Crosáidí wrote: »

Taispeánann sé go bhfuil an scolaire meabhrach, Is iad na teangeacha is deacra de na ábhair a dhéanann muid sa scoil. Scarann sí an scolaire lag ón scolaire láidir

Competence in Irish shows you can speak. Competence in English shows you can speak with everybody else.

Dan_Solo · 20-02-2011 10:42pm

deirdremf wrote: »

So is the story that they will carry out a "full consultation" and then drop the subject?
Or is that not how these things are usually done?

Yeah, it is. Although they often bury or simply ignore the findings of research groups if they don't agree with their pre-determined policy. This does not affect whether *I* agree with the policy of course.

Dan_Solo · 20-02-2011 10:45pm

deirdremf wrote: »

Regarding choice, well, you can now make your decision to give up Irish entirely. But if you stay in Ireland, I bet a child or grandchild of yours will take up the language despite your hatred of it.

His hatred of Irish appears to stem entirely from being forced to learn it for zero purpose.
This is of course completely lost on you.

deirdremf · 20-02-2011 10:47pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Nonsense.
Are you saying people are less "Irish" (and we don't want to even touch the genetics of "Irish") if they can't or don't speak Irish?
Sorry mate, I don't need you telling me what hoops I need to jump through to know my identity.
"Torment"?:rolleyes:Are you talking about Irish poetry class?

I read a relevant comment once, made in the mid-19th century. I don't have the actual words to hand, but briefly it was that fifty years previously (i.e. c.1800) when people spoke about the Irish they meant the protestant people of Ireland; but by the 1850s, the word was used to mean the catholic people of Ireland.
Today we are witnessing another redefining of the word Irish,
It could be that in 50 years time, if you don't speak Irish, the word Irish won't apply to you.
Or maybe, as some people would like to see, the word Irish will only apply to the English speakers of Ireland, Irish will mean the way English is spoken here, and Irish speakers will be called Gaels, and will speak Gaelic.

Dan_Solo · 20-02-2011 10:48pm

_meehan_ wrote: »

Tá sé ag argóint in aghaidh tusa, ach is léir nach dtuigeann tú cad a bhí a rá aige ina abairt deireanach.

I never said I was a Gaelgoir, and TBH you can expect me to mistranslate quite a few things if you insist on switching between Irish and English from one post to the next.
And no, I'm not going to feel in the slightest embarrassed by not knowing exactly what you're saying.

An gal gréine · 20-02-2011 10:50pm

There's plenty of Irish being spoken, not just in the Gaeltacht, when you know where to look. At the annual 5-day Irish language festival, 'Oireachtas na Gaeilge', between 10,000 and 20,000 people attend every year. Everyone pays their own way, bar a few perfunctionaries. Small towns are now unable to hold the festival as they dont have sufficient beds such is the popularity of the festival. If you hear English spoken it'll be hotel staff, probably.
TG4 repeated their party leaders' debate at 10.30pm on Wednesday, this time without the sub-titles and got a viewership of 175,000. This was on top of the earlier figure of 408,000. To say that NOBODY is speaking it, because you dont hear them speaking it is clearly not correct and to further say that nobody is interested seems absurd.

Dan_Solo · 20-02-2011 10:51pm

deirdremf wrote: »

I read a relevant comment once, made in the mid-19th century. I don't have the actual words to hand, but briefly it was that fifty years previously (i.e. c.1800) when people spoke about the Irish they meant the protestant people of Ireland; but by the 1850s, the word was used to mean the catholic people of Ireland.
Today we are witnessing another redefining of the word Irish,
It could be that in 50 years time, if you don't speak Irish, the word Irish won't apply to you.
Or maybe, as some people would like to see, the word Irish will only apply to the English speakers of Ireland, Irish will mean the way English is spoken here, and Irish speakers will be called Gaels, and will speak Gaelic.

And maybe, in a million years time, "Irish" will mean your spaceship has 14 trans-dimensional rocket boosters. So?
Maybe some people "would like to see" whatever nonsense you're on about there at the end. Pity you've made no case that it applies to anybody posting on this thread. Pure strawmanning.

Dan_Solo · 20-02-2011 10:57pm

An gal gréine wrote: »

TG4 repeated their party leaders' debate at 10.30pm on Wednesday, this time without the sub-titles and got a viewership of 175,000. This was on top of the earlier figure of 408,000. To say that NOBODY is speaking it, because you dont hear them speaking it is clearly not correct and to further say that nobody is interested seems absurd.

What it "seems" like is irrelevant.
The facts I have already posted prove that though the majority of Irish people know how to speak Irish as they were required to learn it at school, only a tiny percentage have any interest in utilising it.
I never said I didn't hear people speaking it, which I do about twice a year in Galway city, though I never heard anybody speaking Irish in 10 years in Dublin.

deirdremf · 20-02-2011 10:59pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You're really struggling with this.
If you ever want to utilise the Irish taught to you for any benefit other than entertainment, you will be 99% likely to end up in a job funded directly or close to directly by the state.
Many useful things, such as competence in a common language, i.e. English, are funded by the state, correct.

It appears that you have a serious difficulty with the state funding things.
The PDs did too (except when their friends were getting the funding). They are now history.
However, the state funds all sorts of things out of taxes we are forced to pay (how do you get out of paying taxes? Can I have an exemption please, I hate taxes).
The state - although it doesn't work very well - funds all sorts of things that affect our lives. Some of them we like, others we dislike. And one of them is the Irish language. A minority don't like it, well, like any other aspect of modern society, that minority has to abide by the rules made by the majority.
If you can get a majority on your side, you will surely get your way on this matter; but the only way you are likely to get that majority is through subterfuge, as a large majority has been consistently shown to favour Irish.

Insect Overlord · 20-02-2011 11:01pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

though I never heard anybody speaking Irish in 10 years in Dublin.

I had a lovely chat with a friend of mine today, entirely as Gaeilge of course. Sitting in Eddie Rocket's in South Anne's Street off Grafton St, Dublin.

But anyway, you were saying?

Dan_Solo · 20-02-2011 11:07pm

Insect Overlord wrote: »

I had a lovely chat with a friend of mine today, entirely as Gaeilge of course. Sitting in Eddie Rocket's in South Anne's Street off Grafton St, Dublin.

But anyway, you were saying?

I was saying I didn't hear a single conversation in Irish in ten years of living in Dublin.
Did you miss it the first time? Maybe you were reading in Irish but I was typing in English?

Dan_Solo · 20-02-2011 11:12pm

deirdremf wrote: »

It appears that you have a serious difficulty with the state funding things.

I don't. And it doesn't "appear" that way either.

deirdremf wrote: »

The PDs did too (except when their friends were getting the funding). They are now history.

So is Irish as a commonly used language. Coincidence?

deirdremf wrote: »

The state - although it doesn't work very well - funds all sorts of things that affect our lives. Some of them we like, others we dislike. And one of them is the Irish language. A minority don't like it, well, like any other aspect of modern society, that minority has to abide by the rules made by the majority.
If you can get a majority on your side, you will surely get your way on this matter; but the only way you are likely to get that majority is through subterfuge, as a large majority has been consistently shown to favour Irish.

Nope, they favour the idea of Irish. They provably do not favour actually using it.
I know how a democracy works BTW. If you can show me where I intimated otherwise, be my guest and post it.
Two can play at that game of course: the majority of Irish people wanted a government that would bankrupt us and force us into IMF/EU slavery. Does that mean they were "right"? I doubt many people vote based on which party promises the most Irish speakers TBH. Otherwise Gerry Adams would be Taoiseach, yes?

Salty · 20-02-2011 11:16pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

the language would be better off dead.

Someone who likes Irish would never make such a malicious comment about it.

Dan_Solo · 20-02-2011 11:21pm

_meehan_ wrote: »

Someone who likes Irish would never make such a malicious comment about it.

And someone who was honest or interested in reasoned debate would never quote so patently out of context.
What's the matter, can't your computer copy and paste the full sentence I wrote?

Salty · 20-02-2011 11:25pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

And someone who was honest or interested in reasoned debate would never quote so patently out of context.
What's the matter, can't you're computer copy and paste the full sentence I wrote?

RICH coming from you. You took the majority of what I said, and of what others said, out of context and twisted it to suit yourself and your bigoted views.

Dan_Solo · 20-02-2011 11:28pm

_meehan_ wrote: »

RICH coming from you. You took the majority of what I said, and of what others said, out of context and twisted it to suit yourself and your bigoted views.

Pity you won't quote a specific incident where I did this, isn't it? You know, to give yourself a shred of credibility?
Go on then, what have you got?
Didn't think so.

deirdremf · 20-02-2011 11:33pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I don't. And it doesn't "appear" that way either.

Well, as someone who has been reading your posts, I beg to differ - it does appear that way.
Maybe if you expressed yourself more carefully?

So is Irish as a commonly used language. Coincidence?

Again I feel differently to you here. Although Irish is not used as commonly as it was one hundred years ago, over most of Ireland it is certainly used more than it was twenty, thirty or fifty years ago. Schools are run through the language all over the country. In the town I live in, 10% or more of the kids receive their education through Irish, in a place where Irish has probably not been spoken much in the last 200 years.
In Co Cork, the figure is probably a fair bit higher, with 20 or more Gaelscoileanna. Although I don't know much about the situation on the ground there, I would say that Cork is very close to a situation where parents will soon be demanding Irish language education for their children to such an extent that it will become a major election issue there, if not at the next general election, certainly at the following one, unless demand is met (as it won't be, owing to the Dept of Eds opposition.)

Insect Overlord · 20-02-2011 11:34pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Don't make a fool of yourself by pretending they are.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

This is of course completely lost on you.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Maybe some people "would like to see" whatever nonsense you're on about there at the end. Pity you've made no case that it applies to anybody posting on this thread. Pure strawmanning.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Did you miss it the first time? Maybe you were reading in Irish but I was typing in English?

Dan_Solo wrote: »

What's the matter, can't your computer copy and paste the full sentence I wrote?

No need to get so snarky about it. Sarcasm really adds nothing to your argument.

Dan_Solo · 20-02-2011 11:40pm

deirdremf wrote: »

Well, as someone who has been reading your psots, I beg to differ - it does appear that way.
Maybe if you expressed yourself more carefully?

More guff. If you can show where I said I "hate" Irish then please do.
Of course you won't.
You could perhaps try to quote me deliberately out of context, like Meehan did? That "worked" for him?

deirdremf wrote: »

Again I feel differently to you here. Although Irish is not used as commonly as it was one hundred years ago, over most of Ireland it is certainly used more than it was twenty, thirty or fifty years ago. Schools are run through the language all over the country. In the town I live in, 10% or more of the kids receive their education through Irish, in a place where Irish has probably not been spoken much in the last 200 years.
In Co Cork, the figure is probably a fair bit higher, with 20 or more Gaelscoileanna. Although I don't know much about the situation on the ground there, I would say that Cork is very close to a situation where parents will soon be demanding Irish language education for their children to such an extent that it will become a major election issue there, if not at the next general election, certainly at the following one, unless demand is met (as it won't be, owing to the Dept of Eds opposition.)

The point entirely eludes you yet again.
A tiny percentage of these children will speak Irish when they leave school. It is a complete waste of their time learning it as later in life it will be useless to them plus they will have not the slightest interest in it.
As I said, if Irish was a real election issue, Sinn Fein would be in power.

Dan_Solo · 20-02-2011 11:42pm

Insect Overlord wrote: »

No need to get so snarky about it. Sarcasm really adds nothing to your argument.

And failing to counter my argument doesn't detract from it either.
Other people have used sarcasm here too. Of course you won't whine about their posting "style" as you agree with their side of the argument.
How objective of you.

deirdremf · 20-02-2011 11:43pm

Insect Overlord wrote: »

No need to get so snarky about it. Sarcasm really adds nothing to your argument.

That's an amusing comment, because I didn't realise he had an argument - to me what he says is just a diatribe against Irish. A full flow of vomit from both ends.
You don't see so much of that here, but over on politics.ie, the place is full of what seem to be retirees going on exactly as dannyboy does. And equally out of touch with what is actually happening around the country regarding the language. He probably thinks that the Dept of Ed is falling over themselves trying to give out money to coistí setting up Gaelscoileanna when the opposite is the case.

He's just looking for attention, and I'm sorry to say that I'm as guilty as anyone of "feeding the troll"

kdowling · 20-02-2011 11:47pm

having irish compulsory in schools is absolutely draconian.

I was acyually quite good at irish in school and enjoyed learning it. I got an A in the leaving cert and spent a year in an cheathru rua.

But most people will never speak one sentence of Irish after the leaving cert. Thats 13 years of learning a language that they will never use. What an absolute waste of time.

I spent some time in the UK and tried to have a conversion with other irish people in irish so that the english lads in the room would not understand what i was saying and out of 5 irish lads (who got 450 + points in their leaving cert) not one of them could even have a basic conversion with me in Irish. After 13 years of learning it!!!

If you want to learn irish go ahead, if you want to teach your kids irish go ahead but if people feel that they don't want to learn irish and that they will never use the language i think its madness to force them to by having it compulsory in schools.

Dan_Solo · 20-02-2011 11:50pm

deirdremf wrote: »

That's an amusing comment, because I didn't realise he had an argument - to me what he says is just a diatribe against Irish. A full flow of vomit from both ends.
You don't see so much of that here, but over on politics.ie, the place is full of what seem to be retirees going on exactly as dannyboy does. And equally out of touch with what is actually happening around the country regarding the language. He probably thinks that the Dept of Ed is falling over themselves trying to give out money to coistí setting up Gaelscoileanna when the opposite is the case.

He's just looking for attention, and I'm sorry to say that I'm as guilty as anyone of "feeding the troll"

Well that's one way to admit that you can't argue for Irish to be compulsory in schools I guess.
1. Appeal to the rest of the board (because you have been roundly defeated when you address someone)
2. Say he has no argument (but don't explain at all why)
3. Say he thinks X, Y and Z (when he has never posted a single thing like that and you won't back it up with any quotes)

and finally, the best one...

4. Call him a troll (because maybe the mods will take pity on you).

All so lost-internet-argument-101, isn't it?

Salty · 20-02-2011 11:51pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Nonsense.
Are you saying people are less "Irish" (and we don't want to even touch the genetics of "Irish") if they can't or don't speak Irish?
Sorry mate, I don't need you telling me what hoops I need to jump through to know my identity.
"Torment"?:rolleyes:Are you talking about Irish poetry class?

Great example of where you completely manipulated my words.

deise go deo wrote: »

Dont move the goal post's.

Someone else implying that you were indeed changing things to suit yourself.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Oh dear. How many jobs did you actaully list there? A few localisation gigs? Google might be a huge company, but their employing 2 or 3 Irish speakers to give an Irish translation service doesn't really justify 50,000 leaving cert students a year being forced to learn Irish, at a cost of tens of millions, does it?
Besides, those jobs only exist to service the artificial requirement imposed by the government due to enforced Irish usage.
If Irish is so great and popular, why does it need such constant expensive support?

The number of jobs this person listed which Irish is necessary for is irrelevant, you only asked for specific jobs. They gave you the answer, and you decided since you couldn't really contest against the cold, hard facts, you would turn it on its head, and say "oh that's not enough examples to merit its worth."

Dan_Solo wrote: »

http://www.cso.ie/census/census2006results/volume_9/volume_9_press_release.pdf
Just over 72,000 persons, representing 4.4 per cent
of all those who could speak Irish, spoke it on a daily basis outside education
Loads of people can speak Irish because they were forced to learn it. Unfortunately virtually nobody wants to speak it.
Therein lies the reality of our culture.

Sweeping generalisations regarding whether people want or don't want to speak Irish is ridiculous. You cannot speak on behalf of all those people and say they simply don't want to use the language. I always hear people saying that they would love to be able to speak it. ALWAYS - no exageration.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You're kind of assuming here that there will be some undeniable tug on the heartstrings here when you say the Gaeltacht is threatened.
So what?
It's a part of the country where a lot of people speak Irish. If that can only be maintained artificially by paying people to speak Irish (and don't pretend that's not what we're talking about) then it quite simply deserves to die.

Those people are simply paid to take care of the students who go there during the summer, they are not actually paid to speak the language. That's like saying we're paid to speak English; it's ludicrous. The language is truly alive in these parts of the country.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Correct, it will be lost. Because nobody wanted to speak it.
If Irish only exists because people are paid to speak it, the it is not part of our living heritage at all. It is dead, only nobody's turned off the life support yet.

Again, NOT TRUE.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Oh yeah, you can always not go to school.
I suppose that's what you mean by "choice".:rolleyes:

Anyone can go to school, sit in a class, and choose not to learn what is being taught to them. This applies to all subjects, not just Irish.

Krusader · 20-02-2011 11:51pm

kdowling wrote: »

If you want to learn irish go ahead, if you want to teach your kids irish go ahead but if people feel that they don't want to learn irish and that they will never use the language i think its madness to force them to by having it compulsory in schools.

Most people want reform 1st then see how it goes from there, if students learn how to 'speak' it they'll use it

Insect Overlord · 20-02-2011 11:52pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

All so lost-internet-argument-101, isn't it?

I didn't want to have to post this, but your ranting has left me with very little choice:

At least we got 75 or so decent posts before this started to collapse under the weight of pointless repetition...

Enda Kenny to make irish optional?

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