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why so passionate?

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  • 26-08-2010 12:00am
    #1
    bluecatmorgana
    Registered Users Posts: 447 ✭✭


    I was wondering why atheists and agnostics on boards and in the public eye are so passionate about a non-belief? (or is it a belief in itself)
    Surely if you believe there is no God then you must be quite calm about the matter, however in any debate I ever read I feel like they are attacking and rather cross?

    Is it because of the damage religion has done in the world that you feel its your duty to change people's mind about religion and God (or Gods)?

    Do you feel that any believers are stupid and all stupid people must learn of how stupid they are?

    I would think that if religion doesnt affect you in any big way in life surely you dont care but I get the feeling you do care... a lot.


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    #2
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    bluecatmorgana wrote: »
    Surely if you believe there is no God then you must be quite calm about the matter,
    I'd say most atheists and agnostics in this forum spend as much time worrying about the christian deity figures as much as most christians worry about Apolllo.
    bluecatmorgana wrote: »
    however in any debate I ever read I feel like they are attacking and rather cross?
    What most a+a people in my experience object to is religious people forcing their religious views into the public arena without first agreeing with the recipients, or indeed anybody else, whether or not might be a good idea.


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    #3
    mohawk
    Registered Users Posts: 1,781 ✭✭✭mohawk


    bluecatmorgana wrote: »
    I was wondering why atheists and agnostics on boards and in the public eye are so passionate about a non-belief? (or is it a belief in itself)
    Surely if you believe there is no God then you must be quite calm about the matter, however in any debate I ever read I feel like they are attacking and rather cross?

    Is it because of the damage religion has done in the world that you feel its your duty to change people's mind about religion and God (or Gods)?

    Do you feel that any believers are stupid and all stupid people must learn of how stupid they are?

    I would think that if religion doesnt affect you in any big way in life surely you dont care but I get the feeling you do care... a lot.

    There are many reasons to feel passionate about religion. My biggest issue with religion is that 91% of the primary schools in this country are run by the catholic church leaving very little choice for those of us who would prefer a secular education. Also I am still under pressure from my family to baptise my son which means I end up defending my position anytime I see them. So its only natural that I have opions on religion.

    I for one am not cross about religion.

    Do you feel like they are attacking people because you feel uncomfortable when people with views different to yours debating and pionting out flaws in peoples veiwpoints. Debating is not attacking.

    I don't think it is my duty to change people minds. People should think for themselves and come to whatever conclusion about religion. Its not up to me to think for other people. I don't think believers are stupid some of my best friends are catholics and who am I to judge them?


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    #4
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    bluecatmorgana wrote: »
    I was wondering why atheists and agnostics on boards and in the public eye are so passionate about a non-belief? (or is it a belief in itself)
    Surely if you believe there is no God then you must be quite calm about the matter, however in any debate I ever read I feel like they are attacking and rather cross?

    Is it because of the damage religion has done in the world that you feel its your duty to change people's mind about religion and God (or Gods)?

    Do you feel that any believers are stupid and all stupid people must learn of how stupid they are?

    I would think that if religion doesnt affect you in any big way in life surely you dont care but I get the feeling you do care... a lot.

    The trouble is, in this country religion does affect me, even though I have none and wish none - from the evangelical knocking at my door to finding a school to accept my child, those campaigning against equality legislation and generally trying to dictate and have a say in what the rest of us do. When that changes, I'll have little to be angry at and little interest in religion or the religious at all. :)


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    #5
    bluecatmorgana
    Registered Users Posts: 447 ✭✭bluecatmorgana


    mohawk wrote: »
    There are many reasons to feel passionate about religion. My biggest issue with religion is that 91% of the primary schools in this country are run by the catholic church leaving very little choice for those of us who would prefer a secular education. Also I am still under pressure from my family to baptise my son which means I end up defending my position anytime I see them. So its only natural that I have opions on religion.

    I for one am not cross about religion.

    Do you feel like they are attacking people because you feel uncomfortable when people with views different to yours debating and pionting out flaws in peoples veiwpoints. Debating is not attacking.

    I don't think it is my duty to change people minds. People should think for themselves and come to whatever conclusion about religion. Its not up to me to think for other people. I don't think believers are stupid some of my best friends are catholics and who am I to judge them?

    Debating whether its convincing or not can be a bit of a downer.
    Some people like to post their point of view but are unable to debate it as they do not have the skills.
    Using phrases like faeries and unicorns and leprachauns to compare to God can be a bit rude, religion is very important to some people and its insulting to their religion. I can understand why people may say it hear in a&a but in religious forums that is just mean.


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    #6
    bluecatmorgana
    Registered Users Posts: 447 ✭✭bluecatmorgana


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    The trouble is, in this country religion does affect me, even though I have none and wish none - from the evangelical knocking at my door to finding a school to accept my child, those campaigning against equality legislation and generally trying to dictate and have a say in what the rest of us do. When that changes, I'll have little to be angry at and little interest in religion or the religious at all. :)

    But do any of these things truely affect you,
    the evangelist knocking at your door is only irritatingn
    those campaigning against equality legislation have failed and will fail
    religious schools will accept any denomination or atheists (or at least my school did when I was in school)


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    #7
    mohawk
    Registered Users Posts: 1,781 ✭✭✭mohawk


    bluecatmorgana wrote: »
    Debating whether its convincing or not can be a bit of a downer.
    Some people like to post their point of view but are unable to debate it as they do not have the skills.
    Using phrases like faeries and unicorns and leprachauns to compare to God can be a bit rude, religion is very important to some people and its insulting to their religion. I can understand why people may say it hear in a&a but in religious forums that is just mean.

    I don't personally bring up unicorms etc in my posts. I can see how it appears rude but, having said that people that compare fairies to god they see believing in god the same as believing in fairies, Because in an atheists mind neither exists.

    Why read things that put you on a downer?? Life is short go out and have fun


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    #8
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    bluecatmorgana wrote: »
    But do any of these things truely affect you,
    the evangelist knocking at your door is only irritatingn
    those campaigning against equality legislation have failed and will fail
    religious schools will accept any denomination or atheists (or at least my school did when I was in school)

    Do you honestly think I'd have said them if they didn't affect me? I'm getting a bit sick of religious people telling me there's no issue with the religious in this country, I think you either don't see it or haven't spent enough time anywhere else to realise just how religious this country is.

    So because they are "only an irritation", they don't effect me? Waking my kids up just to push their own brand of mumbo-jumbo isn't effecting me or encroaching on my life? Seriously now?

    Those campaigning haven't failed - have you read the differences in legislation between marriage and same-sex unions?

    No, they won't. If you had kids or spent more than 30 seconds on this forum, the parenting forum or a general parenting board you would know that is an argument from ignorance.

    If you are just going to discount every response to you because it doesn't fill your own personal criteria or you have never encountered such - what's the point of posting? :confused:


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    #9
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    bluecatmorgana wrote: »
    Do you feel that any believers are insane and all insane people must learn of how insane they are?

    FYP.

    What I have trouble understanding is that there are so few people getting worked up over the fact the majority of our species are wholly convinced that magical entities are constantly interferring in our lives. They are basing major life decisions are this insanity!


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    #10
    Nemi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 334 ✭✭Nemi


    Zillah wrote: »
    What I have trouble understanding is that there are so few people getting worked up over the fact the majority of our species are wholly convinced that magical entities are constantly interferring in our lives. They are basing major life decisions are this insanity!
    For most, its no more harmful than trainspotting. That's one reason I'm less bothered about it that I might.

    The other is I've no particular advice to offer people on how to make their major life decisions. If they decide to follow an organised faith, so what? I don't see it as intrinsically more harmful than deciding to collect model railways.


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    #11
    bluecatmorgana
    Registered Users Posts: 447 ✭✭bluecatmorgana


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    Do you honestly think I'd have said them if they didn't affect me? I'm getting a bit sick of religious people telling me there's no issue with the religious in this country, I think you either don't see it or haven't spent enough time anywhere else to realise just how religious this country is.

    So because they are "only an irritation", they don't effect me? Waking my kids up just to push their own brand of mumbo-jumbo isn't effecting me or encroaching on my life? Seriously now?

    Those campaigning haven't failed - have you read the differences in legislation between marriage and same-sex unions?

    No, they won't. If you had kids or spent more than 30 seconds on this forum, the parenting forum or a general parenting board you would know that is an argument from ignorance.

    If you are just going to discount every response to you because it doesn't fill your own personal criteria or you have never encountered such - what's the point of posting? :confused:

    ok so I take it back.
    Luckily religion has never encroached on my life but then it looks like I'm the lucky ones.


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    #12
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    :D

    Well, that was easy. :P

    Just on a side-note. Outside of this forum - and the very odd thread elsewhere - I just quietly get on with supporting secularity and campaigning for and supporting various secular projects, I don't stand in the street ranting and raving about atheism. I surf here in my spare time, it takes up a fraction of my life so although reading this forum you may think this is all it's about - you'd be missing 95% of my posts and 99% of my real life - as with all the other posters. I just quite like debating the whole religious issue because I find the kind of claims and absolute statements made by a lot of religious people in this forum kind of fascinating and utterly bewildering. :cool:


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    #13
    MySelf56
    Registered Users Posts: 239 ✭✭MySelf56


    mohawk wrote: »
    There are many reasons to feel passionate about religion. My biggest issue with religion is that 91% of the primary schools in this country are run by the catholic church leaving very little choice for those of us who would prefer a secular education. Also I am still under pressure from my family to baptise my son which means I end up defending my position anytime I see them. So its only natural that I have opions on religion.

    I for one am not cross about religion.

    Do you feel like they are attacking people because you feel uncomfortable when people with views different to yours debating and pionting out flaws in peoples veiwpoints. Debating is not attacking.

    I don't think it is my duty to change people minds. People should think for themselves and come to whatever conclusion about religion. Its not up to me to think for other people. I don't think believers are stupid some of my best friends are catholics and who am I to judge them?

    If you went to school you must be one of statistic from 90% primary school pupil. You are mature, reasonable, respectful and very articulative. Why don't you think your next generation also turns same way as you, simple fine citizen. I am sure little that primary education may have good impact.

    I totally agree about the school system, but it needs time to shift to more secular education. It takes time. Personally radical shift social change is not good society just a gradual change when it comes crucial element like education.


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    #14
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    Nemi wrote: »
    For most, its no more harmful than trainspotting. That's one reason I'm less bothered about it that I might.

    The other is I've no particular advice to offer people on how to make their major life decisions. If they decide to follow an organised faith, so what? I don't see it as intrinsically more harmful than deciding to collect model railways.

    Only you dont see model train collectors setting people on fire and stoning them to death for disagreeing with them.


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    #15
    mikhail
    Registered Users Posts: 3,863 ✭✭✭mikhail


    krudler wrote: »
    Only you dont see model train collectors setting people on fire and stoning them to death for disagreeing with them.
    You've obviously never met a model train collector.


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    #16
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    bluecatmorgana wrote: »
    I was wondering why atheists and agnostics on boards and in the public eye are so passionate about a non-belief? (or is it a belief in itself)
    Surely if you believe there is no God then you must be quite calm about the matter, however in any debate I ever read I feel like they are attacking and rather cross?

    'Shrill' is the term I would use ;)
    bluecatmorgana wrote: »
    Is it because of the damage religion has done in the world that you feel its your duty to change people's mind about religion and God (or Gods)?

    Do you feel that any believers are stupid and all stupid people must learn of how stupid they are?

    I would think that if religion doesnt affect you in any big way in life surely you dont care but I get the feeling you do care... a lot.

    Personally speaking I find it a bit irritating when people spout bullsh*t in general, which is why you will often see me getting worked up about issues such as anti-vaccine people, ghosts/paranormal stuff, psychics, etc.

    Religion fits in there too, so I get a bit worked up about that too. However religion also has an effect on my life, whereas the other stuff (some of it) can be pretty benign.


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    #17
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    mikhail wrote: »
    You've obviously never met a model train collector.

    They're not so bad, its those Warhammer guys who are the real mental ones :pac:


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    #18
    Michael Nugent
    Registered Users Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭Michael Nugent


    bluecatmorgana wrote: »
    those campaigning against equality legislation have failed and will fail

    Not only have they not failed, but they have actually had exemptions written into equality laws allowing them to continue to discriminate on religious grounds.

    The Equal Status Act explicitly allows primary and post-primary schools to discriminate on religious grounds in their admissions policy.

    The Employment Equality Act explicitly allows training colleges for primary teachers to discriminate in their admissions policy on religious grounds, and allows hospitals and schools to discriminate on the grounds of religion in employment.
    bluecatmorgana wrote: »
    religious schools will accept any denomination or atheists (or at least my school did when I was in school)
    See above. Also, even if they do accept people from other faiths or none, Roman Catholic schools operate on the basis of integrating their religious ethos throughout the entire curriculum.


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    #19
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    bluecatmorgana wrote: »
    I was wondering why atheists and agnostics on boards and in the public eye are so passionate about a non-belief?

    More often than not… they are not. You just have a false impression but one easily rectified and I hope I can help you do so.

    What people ARE passionate about are subjects like morality, education, science, politics, sexuality, ethics and medicine to name but a few.

    People are passionate about things being done the right and most effective and helpful way in these areas.

    People like me then see believers come in and throw around opinions in these areas, often based on nothing EXCEPT a belief in a god and what that entities opinions are on the matter.

    What they are passionate about therefore is preventing bad AND baseless opinions from negatively affecting these areas of discourse.

    ONE of the ways to do this is to show that the base on which the opinion in question stands is itself rubbish, and hence so is the opinion itself.

    So if someone comes in espousing opinion X based on the idea that there is a god, the first step is to show that the speaker has given literally NO REASON to think that there IS a god and their opinion should be dismissed until such time as they can establish the base on which it stands.

    This is NOT to say, as many people have attempted to misconstrue me as saying before, that we should ignore ALL opinions that are based on god. Some god based opinions arrive before us ALSE with some other good arguments to support them. We should not dismiss, in other words, the opinions of someone merely because they are a theist.
    bluecatmorgana wrote: »
    Surely if you believe there is no God then you must be quite calm about the matter, however in any debate I ever read I feel like they are attacking and rather cross?

    In the light of what I just said maybe this is now clearer to you? If someone were to start forcing opinions and ideas on you that were based solely on something that there is NO idea to think is true, you would be cross and defensive too.

    Imagine, for example, your house and your family were quarantined because people thought you were ill. There is however no evidence of this. No symptoms. No data. No arguments. Nothing at all to suggest that you are in fact ill, yet they are proceeding on this basis anyway for no other reason than someone has decided to believe you are ill on faith. How would you feel?

    Now apply that feeling to us, when we are told how to act, or not to act, based on a god’s opinions that no one, literally no one, has been able to establish the first reason at all to lend any credence to the existence of, except that they decide to believe it on faith.

    Are the attitudes of people on this forum really therefore so opaque to you?
    bluecatmorgana wrote: »
    Do you feel that any believers are stupid and all stupid people must learn of how stupid they are?

    Nope. If there is one thing we have learned is that religious tendencies are not intelligence dependent.
    bluecatmorgana wrote: »
    I would think that if religion doesnt affect you in any big way in life surely you dont care but I get the feeling you do care... a lot.

    Yes, which might tell you that the first part of this sentence, that "religion doesnt affect you" might be the problem with your premise? The premise IS sound in that IF religion did not affect us we WOULDNT care. The problem is, religion DOES affect us, often in big ways.


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    #20
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    bluecatmorgana wrote: »
    Using phrases like faeries and unicorns and leprachauns to compare to God can be a bit rude...just mean.

    I do not think it is rude or mean at all. In fact I think it very important to say exactly these things.

    Why?

    Well because it is highly important to make other people see what your point of view actually is. Convincing them your point is right or wrong is another thing, but you will never achieve either if you can not first make them understand WHAT it is you are saying.

    The fact is that most people know EXACTLY why they do not believe in fairies, Thor, Leprechauns, or the small green invisible imp sitting on their shoulder. They understand entirely why they dismiss the claims about these entities. It is because there literally is NO REASON to think the claims are true. The do not hold an active belief in them, nor an active disbelief in them, they merely dismiss the claims as entirely unsubstantiated and proceed without them.

    So why is this important for us to say?

    It is important because we dismiss the god claims for entirely and exactly the same reasons. There is quite literally nothing different between the reasons we do not think there any reasons to put credence in a god, and the reasons they dismiss claims about fairies and unicorns.

    There literally is no data, argument, reasons or evidence on offer to us to even begin to lend credence to the claim there is a god. It is not that we believe there is no god therefore; it is that we all proceed entirely without the notion and think others should too, as long as that notion is entirely unsubstantiated.


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    #21
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    bluecatmorgana wrote: »
    I was wondering why atheists and agnostics on boards and in the public eye are so passionate about a non-belief? (or is it a belief in itself)
    Surely if you believe there is no God then you must be quite calm about the matter, however in any debate I ever read I feel like they are attacking and rather cross?
    atheist_goat1.jpg


    bluecatmorgana wrote: »
    Debating whether its convincing or not can be a bit of a downer.
    Stay away from debates then? Not a good way to learn other points of view though
    :confused:
    Some people like to post their point of view but are unable to debate it as they do not have the skills.
    Sometimes people "don't have the skills" because they haven't a clue why they believe what they do.
    Using phrases like faeries and unicorns and leprachauns to compare to God can be a bit rude,
    No, it isn't. Now you understand how atheists may feel about god being pushed on them.
    religion is very important to some people and its insulting to their religion.
    Fairies and unicorns are important to some people too.
    I can understand why people may say it hear in a&a but in religious forums that is just mean.
    I think our religious brothers and sisters can handle it ;)


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    #22
    sonicthebadger*
    Registered Users Posts: 446 ✭✭sonicthebadger*


    Mainly I'm just annoyed by the fact that we allow the "magic book says" argument to carry any weight. It makes me want to say "my magic book says the opposite of whatever your magic book says and I have no evidence to support it either, so let's move on and look at the evidence".


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    #23
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    OP, you could ask the same question of many of the forums on Boards.
    Soccer, Motors, Philosophy... they are all just forums for people who are interested in a subject.

    And being the internet - which provides a degree of anonymity - people in every one of those forums get passionate about stuff that 'outsiders' wouldn't give a hoot about. Much more than in Real Life™, generally.


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    #24
    sonicthebadger*
    Registered Users Posts: 446 ✭✭sonicthebadger*


    Real Life has been trade marked now? Damn! I'll have to stop selling those red pills. Neo! Hey Neo! Don't take it! I haven't got the copyright on it! :D


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    #25
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Life is just a game - didn't you know? :pac:


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    #26
    Shenshen
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Shenshen


    bluecatmorgana wrote: »
    I was wondering why atheists and agnostics on boards and in the public eye are so passionate about a non-belief? (or is it a belief in itself)
    Surely if you believe there is no God then you must be quite calm about the matter, however in any debate I ever read I feel like they are attacking and rather cross?

    Is it because of the damage religion has done in the world that you feel its your duty to change people's mind about religion and God (or Gods)?

    Do you feel that any believers are stupid and all stupid people must learn of how stupid they are?

    I would think that if religion doesnt affect you in any big way in life surely you dont care but I get the feeling you do care... a lot.

    In my own case, it's mostly due to the numerous ways in which other people use religion as an excuse to intrude on my life.
    I couldn't care less about the way people want to spend their Sundays, but when I have to live with the prospect of having to baptize my child to be able to get it into a local school, when I have to accept that if I can't go out to the pub with friends who came for a visit on certain ritual days in the year and that my personal health is subject to what other people read in a several thousand year old book, I do get a little irritated to say the least.

    And yes, I will get passionate about this.
    Be religious all you like, but leave people who aren't alone.


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    #27
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    bluecatmorgana wrote: »
    ok so I take it back.
    Luckily religion has never encroached on my life but then it looks like I'm the lucky ones.

    It is a little egotistical to think that if something hasn't effected you directly then there is no reason to care about it.

    I mean I don't know anyone stuck in the floods in western Asia. That doesn't mean I think "Ah, what is the big deal" or some such


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    #28
    mewso
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 8,870 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    So being passionate is a bad thing now? Who knew?


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    #29
    Michael Nugent
    Registered Users Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭Michael Nugent


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    If someone were to start forcing opinions and ideas on you that were based solely on something that there is NO idea to think is true, you would be cross and defensive too.

    Imagine, for example, your house and your family were quarantined because people thought you were ill. There is however no evidence of this. No symptoms. No data. No arguments. Nothing at all to suggest that you are in fact ill, yet they are proceeding on this basis anyway for no other reason than someone has decided to believe you are ill on faith. How would you feel?

    Now apply that feeling to us, when we are told how to act, or not to act, based on a god’s opinions that no one, literally no one, has been able to establish the first reason at all to lend any credence to the existence of, except that they decide to believe it on faith.

    That's a very good analogy, Nozz.


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    #30
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    Also it affects government decisions and elections, come local election time are the old biddies more likely to vote for that nice man Tom who they see in the church every Sunday or that baby eating athiest? Its a pity there are probably a lot of agnostic/athiest politicians or government officials that probably hide the fact due to the politics involved in declaring you dont believe in god. It affects American politics even more, christians vote for christian candidates,always have. Look at Bush with all his bible thumping post 9/11..


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    #31
    panda100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,551 ✭✭✭panda100


    bluecatmorgana wrote: »
    I was wondering why atheists and agnostics on boards and in the public eye are so passionate about a non-belief? (or is it a belief in itself)
    Surely if you believe there is no God then you must be quite calm about the matter, however in any debate I ever read I feel like they are attacking and rather cross?

    Is it because of the damage religion has done in the world that you feel its your duty to change people's mind about religion and God (or Gods)?

    Do you feel that any believers are stupid and all stupid people must learn of how stupid they are?

    I would think that if religion doesnt affect you in any big way in life surely you dont care but I get the feeling you do care... a lot.

    I'm similar to most on this forum that I don't go out of my way to knock religion. Yet,it still impacts on my life greatly in this country so its not something I can just ignore.

    From a personal point of view the hangover from being brought up Catholic still hangs over my life. My sexuality and feelings towards my body are something that still haunt me from growing up with a frigid,virgin as a my female idol. So yes I guess its the damage that religion has done to me that I feel passionately about freeing Irish society from its stronghold.


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